Pumapunku was not made with stone tools.

[legionromanes]

Legionromanes,

I can't get the link to work.

Could you check it?

I could use this link!

Harte

it works for me

perhaps its time for you to update your acrobat reader

[Nordmann61]

Actually now it is just easier for people ignorant of fields to get ridiculously bad information of the internet and frauds and liars can spread their rubbish further. How many journals for example have you read on this subject?

No, why should I have? I'm a biologist not a stone mason.

Just because it is the evidence you want doesn't make it the be all and end all of evidence.

Also it was built in AD550 I think they probably had tools other than stone by then.

"They" refered to the Archaeologists, not to you, please read the post again.

Cheers,

Nordmann61.

[legionromanes]

Nordmann

you missed a very simple question that I asked you

can you answer it please

enhver stolpe du lage her over idet nordman benytter beskjed tidligere postet fra enigcom eller orion von hannfuglen er lett gjenkjennelse fordi du alltid lage stolpe fra din innbilningen , i.e. der flere å sock dukke enn bare skiftende din navnet ??

I did go to the trouble of having a native norwegian friend translate it into your own langauge for you,

or are you about to tell everyone that although you live in Norway you aren't actually norwegian or even fluent in the Norwegian language

[Oniomancer]

Most interesting, Oniomancer. The links you refer to do not show up in the post, if you could try to post the links again, please, I would appreciate it very much.

I cannot remember mentioning Andesite, but thank you for the information.

Cheers,

Nordmann61.

These links I posted earlier, Video and transcript of same:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE4JZ-_TPzE

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2404inca.html

[Oniomancer]

are you asking the question because you don't know ?

I wasn't entirely sure. I knew the use of bronze was extremly limited in SA compared to other metals but that was it.

Thanks.

[legionromanes]

I wasn't entirely sure. I knew the use of bronze was extremly limited in SA compared to other metals but that was it.

Thanks.

Mesoamerican history is traditionally split into three periods

Olmec

Maya

Aztec

of these only the olmec didn't know bronze

[+DieChecker]

Even if they only used stones, all you need is rounded stones, lots of men and lots of time. Though, you would think that finding copper and bronze tools at the site would be pretty good evidence. To not accept that is to completely disregard all the evidence of how they built it. What do you think happened? They planted tools there, then came back years latter to dig them up? Is there an alternate idea to how they could have cut and shaped these stones? Steel tools? Lasers? Anti-Gravity devices? Atlantis?

I think they built it just as the archeologists think they did. It is not outside of what is capable of that civilization.

[Nordmann61]

Nordmann

you missed a very simple question that I asked you

can you answer it please

I did go to the trouble of having a native norwegian friend translate it into your own langauge for you,

or are you about to tell everyone that although you live in Norway you aren't actually norwegian or even fluent in the Norwegian language

I am impressed that you actually had a native Norwegian friend translate for you, I am honoured that you would like to communicate with me in my own laguage:-)!

But could you, in a nice way, ask to see your native Norwegian friends passport:-)?

I think he must have forgotten much of his native language, because he translated post with stolpe, stolpe means pole in the Norwegian, language, as in phone utility pole. And Orion von Koch will maybe not like that his name Koch was translated to hannfuglen, hannfuglen means male bird in Norwegian.

Can the question for me be in the English language, please?

Cheers,

Nordmann61.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Nordmann61

[Nordmann61]

These links I posted earlier, Video and transcript of same:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE4JZ-_TPzE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE4JZ-_TPzE</a>

<a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2404inca.html" target="_blank">http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2404inca.html</a>

Thank you Oniomancer, most interesting to watch the video and read the transcript.

But the stones they used in this experiment was only up to a ton, and like pebbles compared to the typical size of the block that make up the buildings.

10-15-20-25 ton blocks of stone is something totally different to transport from the quarry to the site. For god measure, the quarry is situated across the valley, and they must cross a river before attemting to pull the enormous blocks uphill to the site.

Had they been using 20 ton blocks for this experiment, you would have won me over.

Not much convincing to see one of the people involved banging a block of stone with a handheld stone a few times. I would like to see a block of stone weighing 10 tons or more, with 90 degree angles and corners, finished completely with this method. If they start with that now, people in the next century should be able to admire their effort.

Cheers,

Nordmann61.

[aquatus1]

**2g. Language: As this is an English speaking site we ask that our members post only in English. Mobile phone shorthand, fictional languages and "leetspeak" are disallowed.**

[Orion von Koch]

Thank you Oniomancer, most interesting to watch the video and read the transcript.

But the stones they used in this experiment was only up to a ton, and like pebbles compared to the typical size of the block that make up the buildings.

10-15-20-25 ton blocks of stone is something totally different to transport from the quarry to the site. For god measure, the quarry is situated across the valley, and they must cross a river before attemting to pull the enormous blocks uphill to the site.

Had they been using 20 ton blocks for this experiment, you would have won me over.

Not much convincing to see one of the people involved banging a block of stone with a handheld stone a few times. I would like to see a block of stone weighing 10 tons or more, with 90 degree angles and corners, finished completely with this method. If they start with that now, people in the next century should be able to admire their effort.

Cheers,

Nordmann61.

See Chris Dunn.

[Harte]

Works for me, though it loaded a bit slow. (not on dialup any more. Yipee!) How up to date is your Adobe Acrobat?

Turned out the site was blocked by the server here at work.

For a pdf, the message is "The page cannot be displayed."

Looks just like when the link is dead.

Viewing it as an HTML page gave me the "Blocked" message.

Harte

[Oniomancer]

Thank you Oniomancer, most interesting to watch the video and read the transcript.

But the stones they used in this experiment was only up to a ton, and like pebbles compared to the typical size of the block that make up the buildings.

10-15-20-25 ton blocks of stone is something totally different to transport from the quarry to the site. For god measure, the quarry is situated across the valley, and they must cross a river before attemting to pull the enormous blocks uphill to the site.

Had they been using 20 ton blocks for this experiment, you would have won me over.

Not much convincing to see one of the people involved banging a block of stone with a handheld stone a few times. I would like to see a block of stone weighing 10 tons or more, with 90 degree angles and corners, finished completely with this method. If they start with that now, people in the next century should be able to admire their effort.

Cheers,

Nordmann61.

Perhaps, however your original contention was that is couldn't be done at all. I would call this a definate Proof Of Concept.

Protzen's initial experiments only took a few hours, Lee's just several days, with just a handfull of men, though he did eventually have to resort to steel chisels for time's sake. Even then, there appeared to be no indication they couldn't have managed a reasonable finish date given the freedom to do so. Multiply that by numerous crews of many men per stone and there seems less reason to assume a multi-generational effort then one might think.

[Oniomancer]

Mesoamerican history is traditionally split into three periods

Olmec

Maya

Aztec

of these only the olmec didn't know bronze

And now I know. (cue G.I. Joe)

Almost a moot point though, since we've already more or less established that at least some of the work could've been and probably was done with other materials and methods. (stone, fire, etc.) Plus like I said, with abrasives doing most of the cutting, it doesn't really take much of a bit or blade to wear down stone.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Oniomancer

[Dark_Lord]

Here is a very interesting paper about Tiwanaku masonry:

http://www.reedboat.org/Research/Tiwanaku%20Masonry.pdf

Exceptionally smooth stone surfaces as one may find at Tiwanaku could be achieved by means of grinding stones of sufficient size. I remember seeing at Tiwanaku perfectly round stones looking like mill wheels (of which I also saw another example at Ollantaytambo, in a nearby quarry). Such stones may well have served as grinding stones (unless they belong to the colonial era, which I seriously doubt considering the absence of nearby settlements).

Whereas most of the sandstone found at Tiwanaku comes from the Quimsa-Chata quarries, located some 30 miles to the South, andesite came from much more distant quarries, located some 120 miles beyond the lake, yet no quarry is known in the area for black basalt.

What I still find very difficult to explain are the small incisions and carvings found on some of the monoliths. Very often one finds a halo on the stone around such carvings, which upon closer examination reveals a different stone texture, which closely resembles obsidian or volcanic glass. In some cases the whole stone is vitrified around the carvings, and one can make out the vitrification halo quite clearly. Oddly, the only mention I could find of vitrification at Tiwanaku is from Posnansky (and E. Kiss), while all modern authors fail even to mention or refute the fact. Perhaps Posnansky was not that wrong when he assumed some of the stones were indeed cast into moulds rather than quarried in the first place.

[legionromanes]

Whereas most of the sandstone found at Tiwanaku comes from the Quimsa-Chata quarries, located some 30 miles to the South, andesite came from much more distant quarries, located some 120 miles beyond the lake, yet no quarry is known in the area for black basalt.

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/bolivia/tiwanaku.htm

As with many ancient megalithic sites around the world, the builders of Tiwanaku went to great lengths to construct their monumental temples. The basalt and sandstone slabs that lay around the site weigh as much as 25 tons each. And the nearest quarries that could have produced the basalt stones are on the Copacabana peninsula, 40km away. The sandstone blocks came from more than 5km away.

the andesite is basaltic andesite,

Perhaps Posnansky was not that wrong when he assumed some of the stones were indeed cast into moulds rather than quarried in the first place.

well I'll look into that as soon as I get back from Narnia

Edited January 13, 2009 by legionromanes

[The Puzzler]

Mesoamerican history is traditionally split into three periods

Olmec

Maya

Aztec

of these only the olmec didn't know bronze

I'm pretty sure the Maya didn't know Bronze tools, at least until Columbus arrival.

[legionromanes]

I'm pretty sure the Maya didn't know Bronze tools, at least until Columbus arrival.

http://people.uncw.edu/simmonss/The%20Maya...y%20Project.htm

The Maya Archaeometallurgy Project at Lamanai, Belize is a research program focused on studying the specialized production of copper and bronze objects in the Maya Lowland area during Postclassic and Spanish Colonial times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_civiliza...tclassic_period

[The Puzzler]

http://people.uncw.edu/simmonss/The%20Maya...y%20Project.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_civiliza...tclassic_period

From your link:

Lacking draft animals necessary for wheel-based modes of transportation, metal tools and even pulleys,

Only after European contact did they know Bronze.

[legionromanes]

From your link:

Lacking draft animals necessary for wheel-based modes of transportation, metal tools and even pulleys,

Only after European contact did they know Bronze.

well its odd then that the Maya Archaeometallurgy Project at Lamanai, Belize says they did isn't it.

lol

[The Puzzler]

well its odd then that the Maya Archaeometallurgy Project at Lamanai, Belize says they did isn't it.

lol

A very late introduction but the finds do indicate a bronze alloy in Mayan culture even though Wiki and others say they didn't. Still, it would appear when the temples and structures of the Mayan culture were built bronze tools were not used.

Some nice Bronze axes here.

http://www.mcguinnessonline.com/gold/maya.htm

[The Puzzler]

Here is a very interesting paper about Tiwanaku masonry:

http://www.reedboat.org/Research/Tiwanaku%20Masonry.pdf

Exceptionally smooth stone surfaces as one may find at Tiwanaku could be achieved by means of grinding stones of sufficient size. I remember seeing at Tiwanaku perfectly round stones looking like mill wheels (of which I also saw another example at Ollantaytambo, in a nearby quarry). Such stones may well have served as grinding stones (unless they belong to the colonial era, which I seriously doubt considering the absence of nearby settlements).

Whereas most of the sandstone found at Tiwanaku comes from the Quimsa-Chata quarries, located some 30 miles to the South, andesite came from much more distant quarries, located some 120 miles beyond the lake, yet no quarry is known in the area for black basalt.

What I still find very difficult to explain are the small incisions and carvings found on some of the monoliths. Very often one finds a halo on the stone around such carvings, which upon closer examination reveals a different stone texture, which closely resembles obsidian or volcanic glass. In some cases the whole stone is vitrified around the carvings, and one can make out the vitrification halo quite clearly. Oddly, the only mention I could find of vitrification at Tiwanaku is from Posnansky (and E. Kiss), while all modern authors fail even to mention or refute the fact. Perhaps Posnansky was not that wrong when he assumed some of the stones were indeed cast into moulds rather than quarried in the first place.

A concrete type mixture is known to have been used in the ancient temples on Malta:

Ggantija, Malta - The temples on Malta are claimed to be some of the oldest free-standing temples in the world. A. Service (6), mentions the 'contemporary cement of the floor' in the pavement of the Ggantija temple on Gozo, Malta (see left), and although the idea was not accepted for a long time, Maltese archaeologists are now of the opinion that Torba (as it is called on Malta), was formed by compacting crumbled rock and rock dust then adding water (7), creating a tough and durable rock-like material on-par with the best and strongest concrete used today.

The pictures below show how some of the temple floors were paved with huge stones, a process also visible at several Maltese temples (Tarxien, left and Ggantija, right).

http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/constructiontechniques.htm

[Abramelin]

Colonel Percy H.Fawcett, the famous explorer of South America, once had a conversation with another explorer who had lived in the Amazonian forests for more than 25 years. They talked about a strange bird that nested in round holes in rock cliffs, and this is what that other explorer had to say about that bird:

"(...) They make the holes themselves. I've seen how they do it, many a time. I've watched, I have, and seen the birds come to the ciff with leaves of some sort in their beaks, and cling to the rock like woodpeckers to a tree while they rubbed the leaves in a circular motion over the surface. Then they would fly off, and come back with more leaves, and carry on with the rubbing process. After three or four repetitions they dropped the leaves and started pecking at the place with their sharp beaks, and - here's the marvelous part - they would soon open out a round hole in the stone. (..)"

"Do you mean to say that the bird's beak can penetrate solid rock?"

"...No, I don't think the bird can get through solid rock. I believe, as everyone who has watched them believes, that those birds know of a leaf with juice that can soften up rock till it's like wet clay."

"The man continued with a personal story about his nephew. He had walked through the thick bush to a nearby camp to retrieve his horse, which had gone lame and had been left there temporarily. He noticed, when he arrived, that his New Mexican spurs had been eaten away almost completely. The owner of the camp asked him if he had walked through a certain plant about a foot high, with dark reddish leaves. The young man said he had walked through a wide area that was completely covered with such plants.

"That's it!' they said, 'That's what's eaten your spurs away! That's the stuff the Incas used for shaping stones. The juice will soften rock up till it's like paste. You must show me where you found the plants.' But when they retraced the young man's steps they were unable to locate them."

(from: "Exploration Fawcett" by Brian Fawcett)

Similar accounts come from members of the Yale Peruvian Expedition - the one with Hiram Bingham as head - who discovered Machu Pichu in 1911 :

"Some years ago, when I was working in the mining camp at Cerro de Pasco (a place 14,000 feet up in the Andes of Central Peru), I went out one Sunday with some other Gringos to visit some old Inca or Pre-Inca graves - to see if we could find anything worth while. We took our grub with us, and, of course, a few bottles of pisco and beer, and a peon - a cholo - to help us dig. Well, we had our lunch when we got to the burial place, and afterwards started to open up some graves that seemed to be untouched. We worked hard, and knocked off every now and then for a drink. I don't drink myself, but the others did, especially one chap who poured too much drink into himself and was inclined to be moisy. When we knocked off, all we had found was an earthenware jar of about a quart capacity, and with liquid inside it.

" 'I bet it's chicha!" said the noisy one. "Let's try it and see what sort of stuff the Incas drank!"

" 'Probably poison us if we do." observed another.

" 'Tell you what, then - let's try it on the peon!"

" 'They dug the seal and stopper out of the jar's mouth, sniffed at the contents and called the peon over to them.

" 'Take a drink of this chicha, " ordered the drunk. The peon took the jar, hesitated, and then with an expression of fear spreading over his face thrust it into the drunk's hands and backed away.

" 'No, no, señor," he murmured. "Not that. That's not chicha!" He turned and made off.

" 'The drunk put the jar down on a flat-topped rock and set off in pursuit. "Come on, boys - catch him!" he yelled. They caught the wretched man, dragged him back, and ordered him to drink the contents of the jar. The peon struggled madly, his eyes popping. There was a bit of a scrimmage, and the jar was knocked over and broken, it's contents forming a puddle on top of the rock. Then the peon broke free and took to his heels.

"Everyone laughed. It was a huge joke. But the exercise had made them thirsty and they went over to the sack where the beer-bottles lay.

"About ten minutes later I bent over the rock and casually examined the pool of spilled liquid. It was no longer liquid; the whole patch where it had been, and the rock under it, were as soft as wet cement! It was as though the stone had melted, like wax under the influence of heat."

Hiram Bingham tells a similar tale about what he heard from the natives. He says the natives knew of a certain plant they used the juices of to rub on the edges of large stones to soften those edges. The edges of the stone would turn into something like clay, which made it possible to create a perfect fit with the next stone.

[Oniomancer]

(snip)

Hiram Bingham tells a similar tale about what he heard from the natives. He says the natives knew of a certain plant they used the juices of to rub on the edges of large stones to soften those edges. The edges of the stone would turn into something like clay, which made it possible to create a perfect fit with the next stone.

I should've known someone would bring this up eventually. A little knowledge of geology should be enough to tell anyone of the unlikelyhood of chemically degraded igneous or metamorphic rock re-crystalizing into it's original form. Once again, these are not room temperature reactions. However, it did just come to me after reading this that there may be another explanation, which I'm fairly sure has been preposed before now that I think about it. Suppose the chemical in question is in fact a powerful organic acid and what it's doing isn't softening the stone but outright desolving it. After it does it's work, they just trim off the effected material with relative ease, repeating as neccessary until the stone is to shape.

The Clay-like material would just be waste by-product. Consider that most granites are 50-75 % feldspar, more if it's a syenite. Less in others, but it's still a significant component of many rock types. The breakdown product of alunous minerals like feldspar is....clay.

I'd say the bird thing is almost certainly apocryphal though.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Oniomancer

[Dark_Lord]

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/bolivia/tiwanaku.htm

the andesite is basaltic andesite,

You should check your sources more carefully. At Tiwanaku you find three types of stone: red sandstone, coming from the Quimsa-Chata mountain range, gray Andesite stone, coming from the Copacabana Peninsula, across lake titicaca AND black basalt. However, black basalt was never used into construction (only gray andesite and red sandstone was used), but was only used for crafting statues and other ritual objects, such as altars or ceremonial bowls.

This is red sandstone:

Gray Andesite:

Black Basalt:

All the above from Tiwanaku.