Archaeological Evidence For Moses

[questionmark]

PS The name Phantes seems to be a variant of the Greek word Phantazo (Strong's #5324), meaning to appear, a sight. This word is used to describe the sight which Moses saw (the so-called burning bush), implying that Phantes was a (mocking) nickname given to Moses after his burning-bush revelation.

Doubtfully, as Egypt was not occupied by Greeks until 1000 years later nor could they give a iota for Jewish legends. The first time most Greeks ever heard about Moses was after the Christianization, where we talk 2000 years after the envisioned time line.

ED missing 0

Edited February 12, 2010 by questionmark

[Riaan]

Doubtfully, as Egypt was not occupied by Greeks until 1000 years later nor could they give a iota for Jewish legends. The first time most Greeks ever heard about Moses was after the Christianization, where we talk 2000 years after the envisioned time line.

ED missing 0

This has nothing to do with occupation. The Greeks and Egyptians were practically neighbours and they would have known about and recorded in their own annals the most disasterous event that hit Egypt.

[kmt_sesh]

This has nothing to do with occupation. The Greeks and Egyptians were practically neighbours and they would have known about and recorded in their own annals the most disasterous event that hit Egypt.

By and large it doesn't seem like the Greeks living in Egypt cared much about the history and culture of the native Egyptians. For the most part Greeks clustered themselves in primarily Greek cities and settlements, such as Alexandria and in the Fayoum. Manetho is possibly the only person writing about Egypt who had any sort of access to Egyptian historical accounts, as slim as they were. This is probably why Ptolemy commissioned him to write the history--Manetho was an Egyptian priest with access to Egyptian temples, where records were kept. Most Greeks who wrote about Egypt based their information primarily on second-hand accounts, myths, and legends, and interspersed their accounts with ample Greek cultural influence; Herodotus is a perfect example of this.

By the time Manetho lived, it is clear in his own preserved accounts that a working memory of events a millennia earlier, from the New Kingdom, no longer existed. Carefully conducted archaeology and philology have provided us a much clearer understanding, no doubt about it.

[questionmark]

This has nothing to do with occupation. The Greeks and Egyptians were practically neighbours and they would have known about and recorded in their own annals the most disasterous event that hit Egypt.

No, but there was no cultural interaction between Greeks and Egyptians until the last part of the last millennium BC, whereby your explanation must be a little off.

[SlimJim22]

No, but there was no cultural interaction between Greeks and Egyptians until the last part of the last millennium BC, whereby your explanation must be a little off.

It seems naive to think there was no cultural interaction as you say. I see a few parralells like the gods for a start as well as some of the practices such as the Oracle. The Greek philosophers were likely initiates in egyptian mystery schools in the first half of the first millenium if not before. Appreciate how trade would have worked in those early times and it is obvious that cultural diffusion was occuring. Alexander was the pinnacle to much that had gone before.

Contemplate the information in this

http://www.christianidentitychurch.net/other_exodus.htm

[kmt_sesh]

It seems naive to think there was no cultural interaction as you say. I see a few parralells like the gods for a start as well as some of the practices such as the Oracle. The Greek philosophers were likely initiates in egyptian mystery schools in the first half of the first millenium if not before. Appreciate how trade would have worked in those early times and it is obvious that cultural diffusion was occuring. Alexander was the pinnacle to much that had gone before.

Contemplate the information in this

http://www.christianidentitychurch.net/other_exodus.htm

The Greeks as we think of them--philosophers, mathematicians, others with too much idle time--did not arise until the Iron Age. In fact, they did not experience a true boon in their culture till after their successful war against Xerxes in 480 BCE. Remember that it wasn't until around 700 BCE that the Greeks really started to branch out in the Mediterranean and its environs. Theirs was a nascent culture on the scene--all the more impressive that they managed to defeat the world's largest standing army.

Certainly the Egyptians interacted with them, but evidently only to a certain degree. In the Late Period of Egypt Greeks were often hired on as mercenaries in the pharaoh's army, but at that time they were not a significant part of the Egyptian culture. Herodotus writes that Ahmose II (570-526 BCE) allowed Greek mercenaries their own settlement at the Delta site of Naukratis, but it's difficult to determine if Herodotus got his facts straight because Naukratis long precedes the Greeks in time. However, it indicates that the Greeks may have started to establish a steady presence in Egypt within the sixth century BCE.

It can be argued that the Egyptians had a much longer relationship with the Mycenaeans, the Bronze Age forerunners of the Greeks.

Similarities in religious traditions have to be examined carefully and well outside the boundaries of folks like Herodotus, who were inserting their own Greek culture into the mix. Herodotus himself believed the Greek gods came from the Egyptian gods, but we know that to be false. The two cultures practiced very different religions at almost every fundamental level. Herodotus and other Greeks were merely trying to find connections between their gods and the Egyptian gods, and they stretched the truth quite a lot. Many cultures of the Mediterranean recognized a god of the sun or of magic or of healing, so at best establishing connections was very superficial and tenuous. Many of these peoples also used oracles in their worship, so there's no real connection there, either.

It's my opinion that the oft-mentioned "mystery school" is more fiction than fact, at least as far as Egypt is concerned. In twenty-five years of research I have never come across anything in the Egyptian religion or priesthood that would fit this mold. I think it's largely New Age whimsy, a product of today's fanciful thought. The bottom line is, the Greeks did not have a significant and lasting effect on Egyptian culture until after Alexander conquered Egypt in 332 BCE. And that's how it generally turns out when one culture dominates another.

[questionmark]

It's my opinion that the oft-mentioned "mystery school" is more fiction than fact, at least as far as Egypt is concerned. In twenty-five years of research I have never come across anything in the Egyptian religion or priesthood that would fit this mold. I think it's largely New Age whimsy, a product of today's fanciful thought. The bottom line is, the Greeks did not have a significant and lasting effect on Egyptian culture until after Alexander conquered Egypt in 332 BCE. And that's how it generally turns out when one culture dominates another.

In fact that seems to be a piece of brain m********ion by A.M.O.R.C.

There is no evidence of any "global" spiritual movement before the Renaissance... and we know the unhealthy amalgam of cultural influences created there.

[kmt_sesh]

In fact that seems to be a piece of brain m********ion by A.M.O.R.C.

There is no evidence of any "global" spiritual movement before the Renaissance... and we know the unhealthy amalgam of cultural influences created there.

LOL I'd never heard of the acronym A.M.O.R.C. I had to Google it, and lo and behold, I can't say I'm surprised. Those ol' Rosicrucians again. It makes sense, given their penchant for invented initiation rites and mystical rituals. Few have misinterpreted ancient Egyptian religion quite like the Rosicrucians. They excel at it, in fact.

I should've also mentioned that in all my studies of ancient Egyptian religion, the professional literature I've read has never once mentioned "mystery schools" in any serious context. One might see them mentioned on fringe websites, fringe books, and by the fringy Rosicrucians, but that certainly does not make "mystery schools" a reality.

[jaylemurph]

LOL I'd never heard of the acronym A.M.O.R.C. I had to Google it, and lo and behold, I can't say I'm surprised. Those ol' Rosicrucians again. It makes sense, given their penchant for invented initiation rites and mystical rituals. Few have misinterpreted ancient Egyptian religion quite like the Rosicrucians. They excel at it, in fact.

Lucky you. There was some lady 'round here in the not-too-distant past who bought the faux-Rosicrucian routine hook, line and sinker. Thought they were straight out of ancient Egypt, in the teeth of the writings of the actual Renaissance Rosicrucians (a group of pro-English, pro-education, anti-war Protestants in what's now Germany, who never once made any claims to a secret society or Egyptian influence).

But a bunch of people who dressed up in funny clothes and played a sort of sub-Crowleylian "let's pretend" in the 1920s? That was her source of eternal wisdom -- sulum stultum suam panem coxit!

--Jaylemurph

[kmt_sesh]

Lucky you. There was some lady 'round here in the not-too-distant past who bought the faux-Rosicrucian routine hook, line and sinker. Thought they were straight out of ancient Egypt, in the teeth of the writings of the actual Renaissance Rosicrucians (a group of pro-English, pro-education, anti-war Protestants in what's now Germany, who never once made any claims to a secret society or Egyptian influence).

But a bunch of people who dressed up in funny clothes and played a sort of sub-Crowleylian "let's pretend" in the 1920s? That was her source of eternal wisdom --

Now that's just sad. At the same time, it's comical the depths of intellectual befuddlement to which people will allow themselves to sink. Still, it's not as bad as the "Priestesses of Isis" and other wackos we've had in our museum's Egyptian galleries, chanting before sarcophagi and Books of the Dead. I had the urge to escort them to a nice padded room.

sulum stultum suam panem coxit!

I'm not sure but did you just curse me? Or is that an insult? I never learned to speak Rosicrucian.

[Riaan]

It seems naive to think there was no cultural interaction as you say. I see a few parralells like the gods for a start as well as some of the practices such as the Oracle. The Greek philosophers were likely initiates in egyptian mystery schools in the first half of the first millenium if not before. Appreciate how trade would have worked in those early times and it is obvious that cultural diffusion was occuring. Alexander was the pinnacle to much that had gone before.

Contemplate the information in this

http://www.christianidentitychurch.net/other_exodus.htm

Egypt was at its zenith in the time of Amenhotep III. There is no question that all the neighbouring states would have had a keen interest in what was happening in Egypt, the same as anything happening in the USA becomes world news. Returning to Amenhotep and his namesake priest, it is very likely that the outsiders did not remember his exact name, only the role he played. That would be Phritiphantes, or Burn Phantes, the king's son.

[jaylemurph]

I'm not sure but did you just curse me? Or is that an insult? I never learned to speak Rosicrucian.

No, it's a Latin expression that means something between my profile quote and the French expression "chacu'un a son gout"; it means "Each fool bakes his own bread."

--Jaylemurph

[SlimJim22]

Lucky you. There was some lady 'round here in the not-too-distant past who bought the faux-Rosicrucian routine hook, line and sinker. Thought they were straight out of ancient Egypt, in the teeth of the writings of the actual Renaissance Rosicrucians (a group of pro-English, pro-education, anti-war Protestants in what's now Germany, who never once made any claims to a secret society or Egyptian influence).

But a bunch of people who dressed up in funny clothes and played a sort of sub-Crowleylian "let's pretend" in the 1920s? That was her source of eternal wisdom -- sulum stultum suam panem coxit!

--Jaylemurph

Thank you Jaylemurph I will certainly be more stringent in what I take in. You are right there is no real evidence for the Rosy Cross although that doesn't necessarily discount there existence. As you know I am in the habit of employing imagination when there is little else to go on. This has led me to contemplate the link with the druids as a rosy cross is similar to a celtic cross. Whether they existed or are a late falsification is no concern of mine but I refute the claims that mystery schools were a mnior or non existant part of ancient culture. The egyptians were heavy into the mystery rites and the Greeks had the Eluesian mysteries originating from egypt. Now you may not find this stuff in text books again it does not mean it has no truth. It is a fact that religions have inner and outer teachings. Judaism has Kaballah and gemtria, christianity had gnosticism, again coming out of egypt and greece and Islam has sufism. Attempts to downplay the imporatnce of mysticism is foolish to me. I ain't buying nothing hook line and sinker but it all seems to fit together extremely well.

Kmt, not being one as educated as yourselves I am not one in a position to dismiss what you say, so sorry if what I have said contradicts you. See I see Athenian culture as an amalgam of others (currently reading Bernal) thus I see no reason why we cannot make comparisons between greek and egyptian gods. There could even be Phoenician influence and at a push Jewish. It was around the time of the captivity after all that you are saying was the time when greece started looking outwardly, could it not be due to migration of the tribes of Israel. Dannan crops up in greek as well as various other cultures. Ultimately, the greek mathematicians and philosophers WERE into mystery schools. See Pythagoras, Pindar and probably Plato and others. The question is really whether they were drawing on older mystery sources out of egypt?

[Rolci]

for those who are interested in Moses AND consider channeled sources valid, the following information might prove interesting. Those who consider them invalid, please ignore, as this is not a thread for discussing the validity of channeled information. Thanks.

Questioner: Can you tell me the origin of the Ten Commandments?

Ra: I am Ra. The origin of these commandments follows the law of negative

entities impressing information upon positively oriented mind/body/spirit

complexes. The information attempted to copy or ape positivity while

retaining negative characteristics.

Questioner: Was this done by the Orion group?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct.

Questioner: What was their purpose in doing this?

Ra: I am Ra. The purpose of the Orion group, as mentioned before, is

conquest and enslavement. This is done by finding and establishing an elite

and causing others to serve the elite through various devices such as the laws

you mentioned and others given by this entity.

Questioner: Was the recipient of the commandments positively or

negatively oriented?

Ra: I am Ra. The recipient was one of extreme positivity, thus accounting

for some of the pseudo-positive characteristics of the information received.

As with contacts which are not successful, this entity, vibratory complex,

Moishe, did not remain a credible influence among those who had first

heard the philosophy of One and this entity was removed from this third-density

vibratory level in a lessened or saddened state, having lost, what you

may call, the honor and faith with which he had begun the

conceptualization of the Law of One and the freeing of those who were of

his tribes, as they were called at that time/space.

Questioner: If this entity was positively oriented, how was the Orion group

able to contact him?

Ra: I am Ra. This was an intensive, shall we say, battleground between

positively oriented forces of Confederation origin and negatively oriented

sources. The one called Moishe was open to impression and received the

Law of One in its most simple form. However, the information became

negatively oriented due to his people’s pressure to do specific physical things

in the third-density planes. This left the entity open for the type of

information and philosophy of a self-service nature.

Questioner: It would be wholly unlike an entity fully aware of the

knowledge of the Law of One to ever say “Thou shalt not.” Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct.

[SlimJim22]

Thanks Rolci that is an interesting viewpoint. However, I am often sceptical often channelled entities. Is this Ra the same as Amon Ra of Egypt? If it is then it can't really be trusted as he would have been opposed to the Law of One unless I am misunderstanding. It does indeed seem fairly common for positives to be turned into negatives especially over a course of time as the more aggressive invariably gain the upper hand through subjugation. I'm not quite gettign what you're saying about Moses. Is it that Moses was depressed when his message wasn't quite getting through? Perhaps the golden calf and all that. My problem is if he was positively positioned as you say then why would he care? Wouldn't he have faith in the Law of One and be content that he was ascending? He must've known things wouldn't play out immediately. Maybe you could have a quiet word with Ra and ask it to clarify. Cheers

[questionmark]

LOL I'd never heard of the acronym A.M.O.R.C. I had to Google it, and lo and behold, I can't say I'm surprised. Those ol' Rosicrucians again. It makes sense, given their penchant for invented initiation rites and mystical rituals. Few have misinterpreted ancient Egyptian religion quite like the Rosicrucians. They excel at it, in fact.

I should've also mentioned that in all my studies of ancient Egyptian religion, the professional literature I've read has never once mentioned "mystery schools" in any serious context. One might see them mentioned on fringe websites, fringe books, and by the fringy Rosicrucians, but that certainly does not make "mystery schools" a reality.

See, there was in fact a "mystery" school in the antiquity, but it had nothing, or very little, to do with what we would call "spiritual" secrets... the Pythagorean School had more to do with math...

But that would be many moons after the timeline we envision.

With all these "secrets" that are murmured we are talking in reality about "secrets of trade". All profession that required an extensive knowledge had its rites and initiations that sometimes go back a long time. First because certain actions and sentence forms help the memorizing, and second to keep unwanted competition away.

It is not surprising that the "spiritual" forms of initial took over the rituals of the trade societies, sometimes in pure ignorance of the real meaning... best example the Freemasons, who just took over the rituals of the Mason's Guild.

[SlimJim22]

See, there was in fact a "mystery" school in the antiquity, but it had nothing, or very little, to do with what we would call "spiritual" secrets... the Pythagorean School had more to do with math...

But that would be many moons after the timeline we envision.

With all these "secrets" that are murmured we are talking in reality about "secrets of trade". All profession that required an extensive knowledge had its rites and initiations that sometimes go back a long time. First because certain actions and sentence forms help the memorizing, and second to keep unwanted competition away.

It is not surprising that the "spiritual" forms of initial took over the rituals of the trade societies, sometimes in pure ignorance of the real meaning... best example the Freemasons, who just took over the rituals of the Mason's Guild.

I'll go along with the majority of what you say... except that Pythagoras was into maths at the expense of spirit. I have no evidence but I would disagree. They were into sacred geometry and would have seen it in nature and may have made connections between God, the Universe and mans place in it. Math, music, spirit are all strings of the same instrument you could say. However, the thing that confuses things today is that secert socieities can't keep themselves secret I expect this would have been different in antiquity and this could explain the little or no evidence that we find.

[Rolci]

Thanks Rolci that is an interesting viewpoint. However, I am often sceptical often channelled entities. Is this Ra the same as Amon Ra of Egypt? If it is then it can't really be trusted as he would have been opposed to the Law of One unless I am misunderstanding. It does indeed seem fairly common for positives to be turned into negatives especially over a course of time as the more aggressive invariably gain the upper hand through subjugation. I'm not quite gettign what you're saying about Moses. Is it that Moses was depressed when his message wasn't quite getting through? Perhaps the golden calf and all that. My problem is if he was positively positioned as you say then why would he care? Wouldn't he have faith in the Law of One and be content that he was ascending? He must've known things wouldn't play out immediately. Maybe you could have a quiet word with Ra and ask it to clarify. Cheers

hello. Sorry, I'm not sure what you are unclear of. You SHOULD be skeptical of channeled entities, especially since some of the sessions, even though start channeling a positively oriented entity, end up, after asking the "wrong" questions, channeling a negatively oriented entity, whose "mission" is, among others, to carry on channeling seemingly positive messages but also including, most often, predictions with dates etc, which, later on, turn out to be false, thus ruining the group's reputation. L/L Research, with their decades of experience and staff with scientific background education, would and do recognize such anomalies, in fact they warn others of these dangers and also have educational material regarding channeling without getting tangled up with negative entities.

Ra, from whom they channeled over 100 times during the course of a couple of years in the early 80's, is a 6th density entity, which means they completed their 3rd density experience on Venus million of years ago and have moved on since through 4th and 6th density. Not sure you were asking about his orientation, but this might help:

"We are those who are of the Law of One. In our vibration the polarities are harmonized; the complexities are simplified; the paradoxes have a solution. We are one."

Also consider this:

"The sixth-density negative entity is extremely

wise. It observes the spiritual entropy occurring due to the lack of ability to

express the unity of sixth-density. Thus, loving the Creator and realizing at

some point that the Creator is not only self but other-self as self, this entity

consciously chooses an instantaneous energy reorientation so that it may

continue its evolution."

And also:

"Questioner: Then at fourth-density graduation into fifth is there anything

like that which you gave as the percentages necessary for third-density

graduation into fourth in polarization?

Ra: I am Ra. There are, in your modes of thinking, responses we can make,

which we shall make. However, the important point is that the graduations

from density to density do occur. The positive/negative polarity is a thing

which will, at the sixth level, simply become history. Therefore, we speak in

an illusory time continuum when we discuss statistics of positive versus

negative harvest into fifth. A large percentage of fourth-density negative

entities continue the negative path from fourth to fifth-density experience,

for without wisdom the compassion and desire to aid other-self is not

extremely well informed. Thus though one loses approximately two percent

moving from negative to positive during the fourth-density experience we

find approximately eight percent of graduations into fifth density those of

the negative."

I remember there is more on this subject but I hope this will suffice. You also asked if "Is it that Moses was depressed when his message wasn't quite getting through?" What made you make this inference? Sorry I can't work out which bit you found unclear. If you paste the unclear bit I could try and clarify. As for why he was worried, I believe it is positive entities that are only worried about their own ascendence (in their case to a higher density negative planet), positive entities WILL be worried if their message gets distorted thus hindering their efforts in trying to help others.

[SlimJim22]

hello. Sorry, I'm not sure what you are unclear of. You SHOULD be skeptical of channeled entities, especially since some of the sessions, even though start channeling a positively oriented entity, end up, after asking the "wrong" questions, channeling a negatively oriented entity, whose "mission" is, among others, to carry on channeling seemingly positive messages but also including, most often, predictions with dates etc, which, later on, turn out to be false, thus ruining the group's reputation. L/L Research, with their decades of experience and staff with scientific background education, would and do recognize such anomalies, in fact they warn others of these dangers and also have educational material regarding channeling without getting tangled up with negative entities.

Ra, from whom they channeled over 100 times during the course of a couple of years in the early 80's, is a 6th density entity, which means they completed their 3rd density experience on Venus million of years ago and have moved on since through 4th and 6th density. Not sure you were asking about his orientation, but this might help:

"We are those who are of the Law of One. In our vibration the polarities are harmonized; the complexities are simplified; the paradoxes have a solution. We are one."

Also consider this:

"The sixth-density negative entity is extremely

wise. It observes the spiritual entropy occurring due to the lack of ability to

express the unity of sixth-density. Thus, loving the Creator and realizing at

some point that the Creator is not only self but other-self as self, this entity

consciously chooses an instantaneous energy reorientation so that it may

continue its evolution."

And also:

"Questioner: Then at fourth-density graduation into fifth is there anything

like that which you gave as the percentages necessary for third-density

graduation into fourth in polarization?

Ra: I am Ra. There are, in your modes of thinking, responses we can make,

which we shall make. However, the important point is that the graduations

from density to density do occur. The positive/negative polarity is a thing

which will, at the sixth level, simply become history. Therefore, we speak in

an illusory time continuum when we discuss statistics of positive versus

negative harvest into fifth. A large percentage of fourth-density negative

entities continue the negative path from fourth to fifth-density experience,

for without wisdom the compassion and desire to aid other-self is not

extremely well informed. Thus though one loses approximately two percent

moving from negative to positive during the fourth-density experience we

find approximately eight percent of graduations into fifth density those of

the negative."

I remember there is more on this subject but I hope this will suffice. You also asked if "Is it that Moses was depressed when his message wasn't quite getting through?" What made you make this inference? Sorry I can't work out which bit you found unclear. If you paste the unclear bit I could try and clarify. As for why he was worried, I believe it is positive entities that are only worried about their own ascendence (in their case to a higher density negative planet), positive entities WILL be worried if their message gets distorted thus hindering their efforts in trying to help others.

Ok I appreciate your coments but you may take a pasting for this convo. It has helped me understand a little. It is good that they teach to discriminate what is channelled and not be in awe. Vigilance is important when interacting with any entities I imagine. I did get a little confused but I'll read your post again later and try to digest the info. As far as Moses goes, I interpreted what you said originally aa being he was extremely positive entity but at his time of leaving was overcome with negativity. Maybe my imagination was running loose but you seem to have cleared it up. Psitive entities still worry but mainly because their efforts to help get distorted. Am I right in thinking negative entities generally hold the upper hand as a result of this? I'll have to read more before I can tackle questions of density and ascendancy to higher density negative planets I suppose. Good talking to ya.

Anyone have any comments on my points before we took a sidetrack with the entity known as Ra?

[Rolci]

Ok I appreciate your coments but you may take a pasting for this convo. It has helped me understand a little. It is good that they teach to discriminate what is channelled and not be in awe. Vigilance is important when interacting with any entities I imagine. I did get a little confused but I'll read your post again later and try to digest the info. As far as Moses goes, I interpreted what you said originally aa being he was extremely positive entity but at his time of leaving was overcome with negativity. Maybe my imagination was running loose but you seem to have cleared it up. Psitive entities still worry but mainly because their efforts to help get distorted. Am I right in thinking negative entities generally hold the upper hand as a result of this? I'll have to read more before I can tackle questions of density and ascendancy to higher density negative planets I suppose. Good talking to ya.

Anyone have any comments on my points before we took a sidetrack with the entity known as Ra?

don't mean to do more sidetracking, just thought to express my opinion of what "Moishe, did not remain a credible influence among those who had first heard the philosophy of One and this entity was removed from this third-density vibratory level in a lessened or saddened state, having lost, what you may call, the honor and faith with which he had begun the conceptualization of the Law of One and the freeing of those who were of his tribes, as they were called at that time/space." might mean. I think, just like with the case of channelings where negative entities distort the messages and give false interpretations and predictions, thusly ruining reputation, a similar event occurred with Moses. His reputation got wrecked and not long before he died (or maybe was killed? [the way I interpreted "removed"]) he was sad because he lost his enthusiasm that he had before the damage was done, anticipating a successful dissemination of the information he was in possession of. Other than this reading, and the Bible, I am not aware of evidence relating to the existence of Moses. Or maybe the stone tablets inside the Ark of Covenant that they found recently, but the authorities said they will not present it in public and will not share any info about the ark and its content. At least the ark seems to be real Oh, I just remembered, there is channeled info on the ark as well, even on where it would be found, which turned out to be true of course, and I have a few interesting websites about the ark. But nothing more about Moses, sorry.

[jaylemurph]

Thank you Jaylemurph I will certainly be more stringent in what I take in. You are right there is no real evidence for the Rosy Cross although that doesn't necessarily discount there existence. As you know I am in the habit of employing imagination when there is little else to go on. This has led me to contemplate the link with the druids as a rosy cross is similar to a celtic cross. Whether they existed or are a late falsification is no concern of mine but I refute the claims that mystery schools were a mnior or non existant part of ancient culture. The egyptians were heavy into the mystery rites and the Greeks had the Eluesian mysteries originating from egypt. Now you may not find this stuff in text books again it does not mean it has no truth. It is a fact that religions have inner and outer teachings. Judaism has Kaballah and gemtria, christianity had gnosticism, again coming out of egypt and greece and Islam has sufism. Attempts to downplay the imporatnce of mysticism is foolish to me. I ain't buying nothing hook line and sinker but it all seems to fit together extremely well.

Jim, if you're seriously interested in learning about the history and belief of the Rosicrucians -- the real ones, that is, not the rather significant amount of pseudo-mystical claptrap that has been attached to them over the centuries -- I refer you to the book The Rosicrucian Enlightenment by Dame Francis Yates.

That sort of claptrap pales in comparison with the sort of things they were really doing -- trying to prevent the Thirty Years' War and setting the stage for the Scientific Revolution. The book also reprints all the material they actually published and sets it in to a historical and social context, allowing you to understand what much of their symbolism really meant. You'll find they never describe themselves as a secret society, never touted any ancient, hidden knowledge nor were ever anything other than just-slightly-liberal christian protestants. Then you'll be able to judge just how poorly informed later generations were in trying to hijack the Rosicrucians into some esoteric movement.

--Jaylemurph

[SlimJim22]

don't mean to do more sidetracking, just thought to express my opinion of what "Moishe, did not remain a credible influence among those who had first heard the philosophy of One and this entity was removed from this third-density vibratory level in a lessened or saddened state, having lost, what you may call, the honor and faith with which he had begun the conceptualization of the Law of One and the freeing of those who were of his tribes, as they were called at that time/space." might mean. I think, just like with the case of channelings where negative entities distort the messages and give false interpretations and predictions, thusly ruining reputation, a similar event occurred with Moses. His reputation got wrecked and not long before he died (or maybe was killed? [the way I interpreted "removed"]) he was sad because he lost his enthusiasm that he had before the damage was done, anticipating a successful dissemination of the information he was in possession of. Other than this reading, and the Bible, I am not aware of evidence relating to the existence of Moses. Or maybe the stone tablets inside the Ark of Covenant that they found recently, but the authorities said they will not present it in public and will not share any info about the ark and its content. At least the ark seems to be real Oh, I just remembered, there is channeled info on the ark as well, even on where it would be found, which turned out to be true of course, and I have a few interesting websites about the ark. But nothing more about Moses, sorry.

All good man. I'd like to PM you sometime for some links and further discussion. If you have anything on the Ark you should definitely put it in the Ark of Axum thread. Nice talking to ya.

[SlimJim22]

Jim, if you're seriously interested in learning about the history and belief of the Rosicrucians -- the real ones, that is, not the rather significant amount of pseudo-mystical claptrap that has been attached to them over the centuries -- I refer you to the book The Rosicrucian Enlightenment by Dame Francis Yates.

That sort of claptrap pales in comparison with the sort of things they were really doing -- trying to prevent the Thirty Years' War and setting the stage for the Scientific Revolution. The book also reprints all the material they actually published and sets it in to a historical and social context, allowing you to understand what much of their symbolism really meant. You'll find they never describe themselves as a secret society, never touted any ancient, hidden knowledge nor were ever anything other than just-slightly-liberal christian protestants. Then you'll be able to judge just how poorly informed later generations were in trying to hijack the Rosicrucians into some esoteric movement.

--Jaylemurph

Cheers Jayle. I'll see if they've got it on scribd and will get back to you in da future. Maybe we could even start a thread on them to give evryone a heads up not to trust everything they read from fringeys.

[questionmark]

I'll go along with the majority of what you say... except that Pythagoras was into maths at the expense of spirit. I have no evidence but I would disagree. They were into sacred geometry and would have seen it in nature and may have made connections between God, the Universe and mans place in it. Math, music, spirit are all strings of the same instrument you could say. However, the thing that confuses things today is that secert socieities can't keep themselves secret I expect this would have been different in antiquity and this could explain the little or no evidence that we find.

No, the sacred mumbo-jumbo always was meant to keep "uninitiated" away, and some groups went to great length to keep the secrets, especially the medics.

That there is coherence between math and art, or that you can put one in relation to another, does not mean that one is dependent on (or related to) the other.

You can put the number of salmons going up the river in relation to the sunspots multiplied by red short skirts on First Avenue... that would not mean that without sunspots or red skirts there would be no salmons.

[kmt_sesh]

...

Kmt, not being one as educated as yourselves I am not one in a position to dismiss what you say, so sorry if what I have said contradicts you. See I see Athenian culture as an amalgam of others (currently reading Bernal) thus I see no reason why we cannot make comparisons between greek and egyptian gods. There could even be Phoenician influence and at a push Jewish. It was around the time of the captivity after all that you are saying was the time when greece started looking outwardly, could it not be due to migration of the tribes of Israel. Dannan crops up in greek as well as various other cultures. Ultimately, the greek mathematicians and philosophers WERE into mystery schools. See Pythagoras, Pindar and probably Plato and others. The question is really whether they were drawing on older mystery sources out of egypt?

Sorry, SlimJim22, I almost missed this post of yours. I think you know as well as I that you have every right to post material that contradicts something I or anyone else has written. Don't ever let anyone else tell you otherwise. As for myself, I will, of course, respond if something you wrote interests me of if I'm motivated to make a comment, based on my own knowledge base. I am the first to admit that knowledge base does not cover the culture of ancient Greece terribly well. I have never studied Greece to the extent I have Egypt and other ancient Near Eastern cultures. Most of what I've studied about Greece pertains to its interactions with Egypt and the Levant, as well as its military history in the wars against Persia and the Peloponnesian War, so that's pretty restricted.

I have no doubt that the culture that centered around Athens was inspired by neighboring peoples. That's true of all civilizations in that part of the world. You can certainly compare Greek gods with Egyptian gods, but in doing so I think you'll find that they actually do not have much in common. I imagine great Greek thinkers like Herodotus saw similarities in the roles of gods, such as in his own Zeus and the Egyptian Amun. Both happened to be the kings of the gods of their respective cultures, so there is that similarity, but when you dig deeper and delve into the fine details, you'll see that beyond the primary roles, these gods had little in common. And the religions of Greece and Egypt were very different, to boot.

The gods of foreigners certainly found their way into Egypt whenever foreigners migrated into Egypt. Egypt was quite accepting of foreign gods and melded many of them into their own culture, such as the Canaanite goddess Qetesh and the Nubian god Bes. We have no definitive evidence of Hebrews in Egypt until well after the New Kingdom--the time period to which the biblical Exodus is assigned--but of course ancient Hebrews migrated into Egypt, too. As with many Greeks, Hebrews were hired as mercenaries in the pharaoh's army. What's most interesting to me about the history of Hebrews in Egypt for which we can find evidence, is that they were unlike so many migrants who eventually adopted an Egyptian lifestyle. The Hebrews stuck to their worship of Yahweh and even built a temple for him at Elephantine in the Ptolemaic Period.

All right, I've prattled on long enough. I just wanted to reply to that post of yours, and besides, as I sit here waiting for the latest episode of 24, I'm really bored.