2012... Supramental Beings..

[SlimJim22]

But see, here you are making the pure assumption that scientific and technological advance has to do with some greater consciousness - a greater consciousness that has no evidence to support that it even exists so even if it did exist, anything said of it can only be based on wild speculation. You are also assuming that because of the mystical as opposed to the very obviously scientific, we have collectively grown as a species, when in fact, much of our scientific advancement in many fields has no bearing on say, the tribal people from the Amazon who have no contact with the outside world. Are you claiming that they are not evolving? This brings me to another point that I will illustrate with the proper definition of natural selection, letting it speak for itself - from biology.com:

Definition

noun

A process in nature in which organisms possessing certain genotypic characteristics that make them better adjusted to an environment tend to survive, reproduce, increase in number or frequency, and therefore, are able to transmitgenerations. and perpetuate their essential genotypic qualities to succeeding

Supplement

It is the process by which heritable traits that increase an organism's chances of survival and reproduction are favoured than less beneficial traits. Originally proposed by Charles Darwin, natural selection is the process that results in the evolution of organism.

While natural selection may help an organism to better survive in its environment, it really just boils down to the very basics of survival, and nothing more.

There is no evidence whatsoever to support that we are in any sort of age, dictated by the position of stars in the sky, the moon, or the sun. There is no reason, evidence, or motivation to care about the Mayan calendar outside of a historical/archaeological context.

While it's all very impressive that science has come so far and keeps going further, lets give it the proper credit and let it stand alone rather than attaching the mystical to it. It only cheapens it to do so.

Ah right. It reminds me of something someone (maybe Matt) wrote the other day about spiders or something. If they are perfectly adapted to their environment then they do not continue to evolve until the nevironment changes and a need to adapt arises. Thus as the tribes of the Amazon are largely isolated and perfectly adapted they would not evolve. However, due to them losing their rainforests thye well need to adapt but by becoming more westernized and taking law degres for example just like the inuit are doing.

I don't think it needs to cheapen it, though I agree caution must be observed. The ideal scenario would be the gradual study of certain claims in the area. It could lead to some breakthroughs but if not the skeptics will win and the new age claims can be put to rest. However, I feel the new age is here to stay, you can't just disagree with it and it goes away. It is an ever increasing part of culture and as with all elements of culture they should be respected or at the very least tolerated. I admit there is a common problem with generalizing amongst the new age views. I mean I suggest this or that and people assume that means I must also adhere to other views.

Maybe I am making assumptions maybe I am just trying to see things from more than one point of view. My perspective is constantly being adjusted and adapted with the new things I am learning but I try to avoid making assumptions because they can lead to misconceptions. I would prefer to push the envelope with suggestions and some things will make more sense than others. It is when I look at the wholistic scenario that I see connections, they could indeed be wholly incorrect but they are working for me and I am feeling good from taking this approach. It's not a competition though, I am taking your points on board and I hope you will do the same with mine. It's the same with science and mysticism, they are not necessarily at war but could find their own harmony for the benift of all.

[Marby]

Ah right. It reminds me of something someone (maybe Matt) wrote the other day about spiders or something. If they are perfectly adapted to their environment then they do not continue to evolve until the nevironment changes and a need to adapt arises. Thus as the tribes of the Amazon are largely isolated and perfectly adapted they would not evolve. However, due to them losing their rainforests thye well need to adapt but by becoming more westernized and taking law degres for example just like the inuit are doing.

I don't think it needs to cheapen it, though I agree caution must be observed. The ideal scenario would be the gradual study of certain claims in the area. It could lead to some breakthroughs but if not the skeptics will win and the new age claims can be put to rest. However, I feel the new age is here to stay, you can't just disagree with it and it goes away. It is an ever increasing part of culture and as with all elements of culture they should be respected or at the very least tolerated. I admit there is a common problem with generalizing amongst the new age views. I mean I suggest this or that and people assume that means I must also adhere to other views.

Maybe I am making assumptions maybe I am just trying to see things from more than one point of view. My perspective is constantly being adjusted and adapted with the new things I am learning but I try to avoid making assumptions because they can lead to misconceptions. I would prefer to push the envelope with suggestions and some things will make more sense than others. It is when I look at the wholistic scenario that I see connections, they could indeed be wholly incorrect but they are working for me and I am feeling good from taking this approach. It's not a competition though, I am taking your points on board and I hope you will do the same with mine. It's the same with science and mysticism, they are not necessarily at war but could find their own harmony for the benift of all.

Right, but the way you put it, it made it seem as though these advancements were being driven by this mystical force, which would imply that because these Amazonian tribes were unaffected, that they were not moving along with the rest of us. If you put a Westerner in with a tribe, they could adapt to that life as well because everyone is as human as everyone else, which means that this mystical force has nothing to do with advancement, technological or otherwise.

There have been extensive studies into astrology which pretty much put it to rest. There is no evidence whatsoever to support that there is anything to prophecy. In fact, quite the opposite has been shown time and again. Some claims are not more thoroughly investigated because they fly into the face of what's already known, or they are so far fetched and impossible to test that they are not even worth the trouble. When you look at new age as a whole, and it's just going to go on a tangent if I start citing examples for everything, you can pretty much bet that most everything rests on a flimsy or hopelessly flawed premise. This isn't about skeptics winning or dismissing something for no reason. It's because there is plenty of good reason for those dismissals. The only reason new age is here to stay is because there are people making money off of those that want badly to believe in it though they have no reason to do so.

While there is no problem with viewing things from different points of view, there is a problem with hanging onto things that have already been debunked or that have no logical premise, evidence, or validity. Astrology falls into this category, as do Indigo children and the Mayan mess. When you attempt to tie all these things in together to strengthen your case for them, it really only exposes how weak the arguments for them are. To pretend that they have anything to do with science, or anything to offer the field of science doesn't make it any more valid. It actually does attempt to cheapen science by lowering the standards that make science what it is.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Marby

[SlimJim22]

Right, but the way you put it, it made it seem as though these advancements were being driven by this mystical force, which would imply that because these Amazonian tribes were unaffected, that they were not moving along with the rest of us. If you put a Westerner in with a tribe, they could adapt to that life as well because everyone is as human as everyone else, which means that this mystical force has nothing to do with advancement, technological or otherwise.

There have been extensive studies into astrology which pretty much put it to rest. There is no evidence whatsoever to support that there is anything to prophecy. In fact, quite the opposite has been shown time and again. Some claims are not more thoroughly investigated because they fly into the face of what's already known, or they are so far fetched and impossible to test that they are not even worth the trouble. When you look at new age as a whole, and it's just going to go on a tangent if I start citing examples for everything, you can pretty much bet that most everything rests on a flimsy or hopelessly flawed premise. This isn't about skeptics winning or dismissing something for no reason. It's because there is plenty of good reason for those dismissals. The only reason new age is here to stay is because there are people making money off of those that want badly to believe in it though they have no reason to do so.

While there is no problem with viewing things from different points of view, there is a problem with hanging onto things that have already been debunked or that have no logical premise, evidence, or validity. Astrology falls into this category, as do Indigo children and the Mayan mess. When you attempt to tie all these things in together to strengthen your case for them, it really only exposes how weak the arguments for them are. To pretend that they have anything to do with science, or anything to offer the field of science doesn't make it any more valid. It actually does attempt to cheapen science by lowering the standards that make science what it is.

Firstly, I didn't meaan to make refernce to any mystical force. I have no clue what, if anything will happen/change but I have an inckling that it will be related to subtle energies and therefore subtle changes, probably not the sort that scientific experiments could pick up on so I admit that proof is a nigh impossibility. Then again I don't care because I am not attempting to prove anything. What I am trying to do is make sense of what's going on now and see if it ties in with the change of age?

You say there is nowt to astrology and I respect that, I don't do horoscopes or psychics or any of that malarky but as I have discussed on here many times the procession of the equinoxes makes sense to me interms of history. The age of the bull was largely matriarchal and the bull was the sacrifice of choice. It was followed by the age of the ram wheer the sacrificial animal was changed and the focus of worship to, the world became a much more violent place with the invention of steel and the main goal of the patriarchal tribes was conquest. Funny it was noted as the time of Abraham. Next age is the piscean, a dual sign and brought on a substantial increase in spirituality through christianity. The jews were becoming too materialistic and that was the role of the messiah to readdress the balance. Is it coincendence that Jesus' symbol was the fish and he was called Ichtys by some. I have no idea what the Aquarian age will bring but I think my suggestions are pretty rational, in the main My point is that huge shifts have occurred at the time of the previous processions so why not this time.

Money could be have something to do with it but I honestly think people are experiencing massive benefits from yoga, taichi, TM, reiki and whatever else people are into. These could be spriitual as well as physical benefits because I suggest the two are inherently linked. Back to the subtle energies idea again.

You can't say that because studies have been done and found nothing that no more should be conducted. We should all keep an open mind. We are at a time where new challenges are being faced, our environment is changing around us and it could go further. Also, we have more children being born with autism, adhdh, etc.

Got to go

[Emma_Acid]

Consciousness has progressed through ages, even in the recent past we have moved from a analogue into a digital age. Our technology as I have said is an extension of man. The wheel, the spiral drill, metalurgy, all these things came at the right point in time for us to excel and grow as a species. It is just natural selection, we have adapted greater cognition and along with our opposable thumbs we can dominate our environment through cooperation.

The digital age is nothing to do with consciousness. Technology is an extension only as much as farming or education is.

Although I do agree that the concept of cooperation has helped homo sapiens dominate.

I love it that our technology now is based on silicone and crystals and in the not too distant future will be cenred around nanoparticles. From what I understand of them thye are not even there half the time. Spooky. It all fits it with the Aquarian age for me at least but only time will tell.

Uh, you're getting point particles and nanoparticles mixed up. Point particles are things like quarks, which make up protons, have no measurable dimensional structure and are unimaginably tiny.

Nanoparticles are usually manmade, and are much much much bigger. They have none of the weird properties of quantum particles, and are used in things like engineering and computing.

Ah right. It reminds me of something someone (maybe Matt) wrote the other day about spiders or something. If they are perfectly adapted to their environment then they do not continue to evolve until the nevironment changes and a need to adapt arises. Thus as the tribes of the Amazon are largely isolated and perfectly adapted they would not evolve. However, due to them losing their rainforests thye well need to adapt but by becoming more westernized and taking law degres for example just like the inuit are doing.

No, because that isn't evolution. When a rainforest tribesman give up his home, settles in a caravan and starts drinking beer and watching telly, he's not evolving to fit his surroundings. Evolution is a biological adaptation by large populations over a very very long time.

[SlimJim22]

The digital age is nothing to do with consciousness. Technology is an extension only as much as farming or education is.

Although I do agree that the concept of cooperation has helped homo sapiens dominate.

Uh, you're getting point particles and nanoparticles mixed up. Point particles are things like quarks, which make up protons, have no measurable dimensional structure and are unimaginably tiny.

Nanoparticles are usually manmade, and are much much much bigger. They have none of the weird properties of quantum particles, and are used in things like engineering and computing.

No, because that isn't evolution. When a rainforest tribesman give up his home, settles in a caravan and starts drinking beer and watching telly, he's not evolving to fit his surroundings. Evolution is a biological adaptation by large populations over a very very long time.

Farming is an excellent example it is still an extension of man though and so I see it as being part of his evolution just like arrow heads or anything else, it is us adapting to his surroundings.

More research needed on this I think, I am a newby to the scientific field and therein lies many of my problems in comprehending perhaps what you are teaching me. I am listening so hope it will sink in.

Exactly, my point is, it is a large scale thing that happens over time. Hence my example of tribesmen learning law to protect their people through, once again adapting to a changing environment. Things will not change immediately but through natural selection it will be the ones who are educated perhaps who will be able to survive for various reasons.

If we can say that society has changed since say the fifties, then the coming generations will be ever so slightly different to our parents and grand parents. If it is not eveolution that our technology and behaviour have changed then what is it? I appreciate we can't make anything of it now because we are still in the process but as an example, people who eat more healthily will live longer and so will there children. People who practice yoga as well may live even longer so eventually the grossly obese and alcoholics will have an effect in terms of their survial and ability to reproduce. Like I said before I think we need to take a wholistic view but i understand it is not easy.

[Agent. Mulder]

i really dont know if id be calling those 'sciences' crystal sage

Edited March 23, 2010 by Agent. Mulder

[SlimJim22]

i really dont know if id be calling those 'sciences' crystal sage

Science Vs Pseudo science

One of the best descriptions and explanations of the current concept of scientific method is interestingly found in the Appendix E of Frank Wolfs' website .3

Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena.

Formulation of a hypothesis to explain the phenomena. In physics, the hypothesis often takes the form of a causal mechanism or a mathematical relation.

Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena, or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations.

Performance of experimental tests of the predictions by several independent experimenters and properly performed experiments.

But in order to realize whether this is a valid concept or not, we need to understand what Science really is. Here is a typical dictionary definition of Science: "The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation [scientific method], and theoretical explanation of phenomena. Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena. Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study."4

http://www.journaloftheoretics.com/Editorials/Vol-1/e1-3.htm

No time right now but read this if you have he time

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/pseudo.html

Science Vs Science Skepticism

A scientific (or empirical) skeptic is one who questions the reliability of certain kinds of claims by subjecting them to a systematic investigation.[6] The scientific method details the specific process by which this investigation of reality is conducted. Considering the rigor of the scientific method, science itself may simply be thought of as an organized form of skepticism. This does not mean that the scientific skeptic is necessarily a scientist who conducts live experiments (though this may be the case), but that the skeptic generally accepts claims that are in his/her view likely to be true based on testable hypotheses and critical thinking.

Common topics that scientifically-skeptical literature questions include health claims surrounding certain foods, procedures, and medicines, such as homeopathy, Reiki, Thought Field Therapy (TFT), vertebral subluxations; the plausibility and existence of supernatural entities (such as ghosts, poltergeists, angels, and gods as well as the existence of ESP/telekinesis, psychic powers, and telepathy, and thus the credibility of parapsychology); topics in cryptozoology, Bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster, alien visitations, UFOs, crop circles, astrology, repressed memories, creationism/intelligent design, dowsing, conspiracy theories, and other claims the skeptic sees as unlikely to be true on scientific grounds.[7]

Empirical or scientific skeptics do not profess philosophical skepticism. Whereas a philosophical skeptic may deny the very existence of knowledge, an empirical skeptic merely seeks likely proof before accepting that knowledge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skepticism#Scientific_skepticism

[Marby]

Firstly, I didn't meaan to make refernce to any mystical force. I have no clue what, if anything will happen/change but I have an inckling that it will be related to subtle energies and therefore subtle changes, probably not the sort that scientific experiments could pick up on so I admit that proof is a nigh impossibility. Then again I don't care because I am not attempting to prove anything. What I am trying to do is make sense of what's going on now and see if it ties in with the change of age?

But facts don't work on inklings. If you want to make sense of what's going on, look at reality and what can be shown/proven, and start from there.

You say there is nowt to astrology and I respect that, I don't do horoscopes or psychics or any of that malarky but as I have discussed on here many times the procession of the equinoxes makes sense to me interms of history. The age of the bull was largely matriarchal and the bull was the sacrifice of choice. It was followed by the age of the ram wheer the sacrificial animal was changed and the focus of worship to, the world became a much more violent place with the invention of steel and the main goal of the patriarchal tribes was conquest. Funny it was noted as the time of Abraham. Next age is the piscean, a dual sign and brought on a substantial increase in spirituality through christianity. The jews were becoming too materialistic and that was the role of the messiah to readdress the balance. Is it coincendence that Jesus' symbol was the fish and he was called Ichtys by some. I have no idea what the Aquarian age will bring but I think my suggestions are pretty rational, in the main My point is that huge shifts have occurred at the time of the previous processions so why not this time.

The equinox is simply a time of the year that the sun passes the plane of the equator, making day and night last the same amount of time. There is nothing more to it. There's nothing mystical or strange about it. You don't do horoscopes, why do you buy into this again, thoroughly debunked, astrological age stuff? There is nothing special there, and nothing to show. You can apply any events to those ages you want. The fact is, celestial bodies do not have a single effect on what happens here unless you are talking about the moon, and its effects are certainly not mystical nor do they influence behavior. Even the full moon myth has been debunked more than once. The shifts you think are there are because you want them to be there. It's choosy perception. Sorry, but it doesn't hold up.

Money could be have something to do with it but I honestly think people are experiencing massive benefits from yoga, taichi, TM, reiki and whatever else people are into. These could be spriitual as well as physical benefits because I suggest the two are inherently linked. Back to the subtle energies idea again.

I do yoga. It's exercise. Nothing spiritual unless you want to take it on as spiritual. Reiki from what I understand, is bunk. People have been doing yoga and taichi for years. What's the big difference now? Mystical subtle energies? Sorry, it doesn't hold water.

You can't say that because studies have been done and found nothing that no more should be conducted. We should all keep an open mind. We are at a time where new challenges are being faced, our environment is changing around us and it could go further. Also, we have more children being born with autism, adhdh, etc.

Got to go

Actually, I can, because you can only beat a dead horse for so long before it becomes a monumental waste of time. We are a time when we should be using our resources, time, and brilliant minds for things that are actually going to be of use for humanity - not pseudo science that may or may not be of use because some people use wishful thinking to convince themselves that it works. And that is how it works.

What does autism or attention deficit have to do with anything? I'm not worried about whether that is even an accurate statement, I'm curious as to what on earth that would have to do with anything.

[SlimJim22]

But facts don't work on inklings. If you want to make sense of what's going on, look at reality and what can be shown/proven, and start from there.

The equinox is simply a time of the year that the sun passes the plane of the equator, making day and night last the same amount of time. There is nothing more to it. There's nothing mystical or strange about it. You don't do horoscopes, why do you buy into this again, thoroughly debunked, astrological age stuff? There is nothing special there, and nothing to show. You can apply any events to those ages you want. The fact is, celestial bodies do not have a single effect on what happens here unless you are talking about the moon, and its effects are certainly not mystical nor do they influence behavior. Even the full moon myth has been debunked more than once. The shifts you think are there are because you want them to be there. It's choosy perception. Sorry, but it doesn't hold up.

I do yoga. It's exercise. Nothing spiritual unless you want to take it on as spiritual. Reiki from what I understand, is bunk. People have been doing yoga and taichi for years. What's the big difference now? Mystical subtle energies? Sorry, it doesn't hold water.

Actually, I can, because you can only beat a dead horse for so long before it becomes a monumental waste of time. We are a time when we should be using our resources, time, and brilliant minds for things that are actually going to be of use for humanity - not pseudo science that may or may not be of use because some people use wishful thinking to convince themselves that it works. And that is how it works.

What does autism or attention deficit have to do with anything? I'm not worried about whether that is even an accurate statement, I'm curious as to what on earth that would have to do with anything.

I'll address the last point first because I didn't make it very clear. ADHD is linked by some to what is know as indigo childre. You may not agree with it but there are books being sold on the subject. Anyway, from personal experience and observing my daughter I could see how ADHD and sensitive children could be confused. There needn't be anything mystical behind the term indigo children than children of a sensitive disposition. They could just as likely be the product of the media and a molly cuddling culture as they are some celestial movement but I'd like to see research done in the area either way. The reason being, that if the younger generation are not understood I fear greater separation could occur. You seen Battle Royale, maybe not that far but with rising unemployment and a shrinking manufacturing sector, I would like to see kids encouraged in the creative rather than getting frustarted and turning to antisocial behaviour. That's just what I have observed because I am a little empathic. There need not be a mystical explanation to that I just care for my common man more than I should.

I have been saying I'd like proper science done in this area to get a better understanding of subtle energies of light and sound and EM. There doesn't seem anything overly superstitious about that. With the procession, have you observed how the timing of ages tend to fit in with environmental changes such as the end of ice ages of 2,6000bce and 12,000ce. If I am wrong do correct me but that was what I had read. More recent claims like Thera are more debatable but I have neither the energy nor the desire.

As for the lunar effects. I'm glad you brought it up because it is something that fascinates me. Is it not true that violent crime spikes on full moons? It is why we have the word lunacy because it has been observed in man for many years. Being interested in the theosopher (I can't spell his group) Rudolf Steiner as are millions of people around the world. One of his more practical theories was biodynamics, are you familiar? I have read some science behind it and seems to add up based on lunar gravity aiding the groing process for gretare yield. The more outthere stuff regarding the moon is it's place in magic but I will save my breath on that one. However, with the other planets being so diverse in their properties I don't think we can be so bold to say we know for sure they do not effect us. Pythagoras thought they did and he was right about most things.

I don't see what wishful thinking has to do with the price of eggs... Wishful thinking implies hope to me, and hope implies some external influence. In that case you misunderstand my interpretation of the new age. That being a focus on individual potential but creating a synergy through cooperation aswell. That is wishful thinking yes but not in the way you mean. Any cosmic change will be subtle, it may increase potential or speed up development but we would still be needing to put in work to strengthen the light or vegatable body. I am self taught so I don't understand it totally but what I do know makes sense and very much fits into my experience. Spirituality is a minefield to define because we all have our own interpretations of it. Mine is that through our breath and consciousness we are connected to what I think I will call a Gaia consciousness, I probably read that somewhere but I mean the part of us that is contact with the earth grid, itself consisting of various fields of different energies. I hope that make sense but I don't hold this view with the convixtion you have, it is just how I am feeling now after the knowledge I have digested. There is always more on the table.

[Marby]

I'll address the last point first because I didn't make it very clear. ADHD is linked by some to what is know as indigo childre. You may not agree with it but there are books being sold on the subject. Anyway, from personal experience and observing my daughter I could see how ADHD and sensitive children could be confused. There needn't be anything mystical behind the term indigo children than children of a sensitive disposition. They could just as likely be the product of the media and a molly cuddling culture as they are some celestial movement but I'd like to see research done in the area either way. The reason being, that if the younger generation are not understood I fear greater separation could occur. You seen Battle Royale, maybe not that far but with rising unemployment and a shrinking manufacturing sector, I would like to see kids encouraged in the creative rather than getting frustarted and turning to antisocial behaviour. That's just what I have observed because I am a little empathic. There need not be a mystical explanation to that I just care for my common man more than I should.

Wouldn't it be more sensible to continue studying ADHD an autism as we are already doing? There is highly credible research going on right now, as we speak, and that's going to get further than any bogus claims by "gurus" and parents determined to label their children as something extra special to feed their own egos. Why not address the issues of allowing children to be more creative by tackling them head on in the education system and taking the reins (and I don't doubt you do this) and encouraging your daughter to be more creative. These are not impossible problems to solve. A sensitive child, in whatever manner you are referring to that sensitivity is a sensitive child. There is no credible evidence for Indigo Children as described in the OP here. Where are the studies on these kids? If they are in fact real, and obviously not a secret, why isn't science paying attention? There is a good reason for that - it's a lie. Just because someone is selling books about it, doesn't make it valid or true. Why not call conditions what they are and support the scientists out to develop better ways to deal with ADHD and autism and those who seek more knowledge of it in the scientific manner, not the new agey, let me take your money while I make you feel good about yourself manner? Maybe we'll get a real answer regarding the diagnosed cases of autism then.

I have been saying I'd like proper science done in this area to get a better understanding of subtle energies of light and sound and EM. There doesn't seem anything overly superstitious about that. With the procession, have you observed how the timing of ages tend to fit in with environmental changes such as the end of ice ages of 2,6000bce and 12,000ce. If I am wrong do correct me but that was what I had read. More recent claims like Thera are more debatable but I have neither the energy nor the desire.

Again, these so called ages really have no bearing on anything. They were applied after the fact in most cases, and again, you can pick and choose any number of events to represent an "age".

I do not know enough about EM to formulate a proper comment.

As for the lunar effects. I'm glad you brought it up because it is something that fascinates me. Is it not true that violent crime spikes on full moons? It is why we have the word lunacy because it has been observed in man for many years. Being interested in the theosopher (I can't spell his group) Rudolf Steiner as are millions of people around the world. One of his more practical theories was biodynamics, are you familiar? I have read some science behind it and seems to add up based on lunar gravity aiding the groing process for gretare yield. The more outthere stuff regarding the moon is it's place in magic but I will save my breath on that one. However, with the other planets being so diverse in their properties I don't think we can be so bold to say we know for sure they do not effect us. Pythagoras thought they did and he was right about most things.

Violent crime does not spike during a full moon. This is a myth. There was also a myth about animal hospitals having more emergencies during the full moon which was pretty much blown out of the water. You know what though? Having worked in an animal hospital, it sometimes felt that way, but the reason for this is that no one noticed there was a full moon unless it was a busy night and someone referenced the myth and commented, "Oh, it must be a full moon." Sometimes it was and most of the time it wasn't.

I can't say that I am familiar with much of Steiner, but just because Pythagoras was a pretty impressive mathmetician doesn't mean that he, a product of a superstitious age would say anything different regarding the planets and the moon. But no, there is no evidence that the moon, planets, or the sun have any bearing on our lives beyond the very mundane effects of gravitational pull. None of these things affect a person's behavior, personality, or the progress of a planet. This has all been debunked several times by people who might know a bit more than even Pythagoras. We can be that bold because again, astrology is utterly fake and of no use to anyone.

I don't see what wishful thinking has to do with the price of eggs... Wishful thinking implies hope to me, and hope implies some external influence. In that case you misunderstand my interpretation of the new age. That being a focus on individual potential but creating a synergy through cooperation aswell. That is wishful thinking yes but not in the way you mean. Any cosmic change will be subtle, it may increase potential or speed up development but we would still be needing to put in work to strengthen the light or vegatable body. I am self taught so I don't understand it totally but what I do know makes sense and very much fits into my experience. Spirituality is a minefield to define because we all have our own interpretations of it. Mine is that through our breath and consciousness we are connected to what I think I will call a Gaia consciousness, I probably read that somewhere but I mean the part of us that is contact with the earth grid, itself consisting of various fields of different energies. I hope that make sense but I don't hold this view with the convixtion you have, it is just how I am feeling now after the knowledge I have digested. There is always more on the table.

I'm sorry but this is exactly the wishful thinking that I am describing because you are buying into something that has no evidence to support it. There is a difference between keeping an open mind and just letting everything in no matter how far fetched it is. I hope you realize that I actually am pretty open minded, but if something smells like a fraud, looks like a fraud, and sounds like a fraud, it's probably a fraud. It's not even good philosophy. I really hope you start to look at things a bit more analytically. You're a very intelligent person, but I really think you need to exercise more critical thinking with this sort of thing. I hope you know I'm not saying this to be mean. I just hate to see people I like get taken in by this sort of thing, especially if I like them.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Marby

[Enigmatic Annasawzi]

Dude, if this has any substance, which it doesn't, the only super power I want, is the one's from Avatar:the Last Airbender; all I want is Ang's powers dude, that's all you'll need.

EA

[SlimJim22]

Wouldn't it be more sensible to continue studying ADHD an autism as we are already doing? There is highly credible research going on right now, as we speak, and that's going to get further than any bogus claims by "gurus" and parents determined to label their children as something extra special to feed their own egos. Why not address the issues of allowing children to be more creative by tackling them head on in the education system and taking the reins (and I don't doubt you do this) and encouraging your daughter to be more creative. These are not impossible problems to solve. A sensitive child, in whatever manner you are referring to that sensitivity is a sensitive child. There is no credible evidence for Indigo Children as described in the OP here. Where are the studies on these kids? If they are in fact real, and obviously not a secret, why isn't science paying attention? There is a good reason for that - it's a lie. Just because someone is selling books about it, doesn't make it valid or true. Why not call conditions what they are and support the scientists out to develop better ways to deal with ADHD and autism and those who seek more knowledge of it in the scientific manner, not the new agey, let me take your money while I make you feel good about yourself manner? Maybe we'll get a real answer regarding the diagnosed cases of autism then.

I do hope they study it but I hope it doesn't involve prescription medication because there are always side effects. I'd prefer to see research in frequencies and sound therapy. I know that might sound a bit whimsy to you but you would be very surpirsed with the genuine reesrach in this field. If there are studies with results going on they are not being heavily publicized. It is best to leave it up to the professionals though I do agree.

The new age is a religion in many ways, a cult in others but ultimately there is a freedom of religion. To be honest I don't particularly like new age types but that does not mean I do not study it like I have all faiths. The inner goings on in how it was formed is surprisingly strange as are most religions. It does make watching how things pan out all the more interesting. However, I see differences between the new age and other faiths in many ways and the children should be treated just like any other. I strongli disagree with all forms of discrimination including positive but it is really a case of each to their own. It is only an interesting topic for debate if there is the slightest chance of truth in a scientific way, even if we don't understand it yet. I will endeavour to look for some credible sources in the area.

Again, these so called ages really have no bearing on anything. They were applied after the fact in most cases, and again, you can pick and choose any number of events to represent an "age".

I do not know enough about EM to formulate a proper comment.

Violent crime does not spike during a full moon. This is a myth. There was also a myth about animal hospitals having more emergencies during the full moon which was pretty much blown out of the water. You know what though? Having worked in an animal hospital, it sometimes felt that way, but the reason for this is that no one noticed there was a full moon unless it was a busy night and someone referenced the myth and commented, "Oh, it must be a full moon." Sometimes it was and most of the time it wasn't.

I can't say that I am familiar with much of Steiner, but just because Pythagoras was a pretty impressive mathmetician doesn't mean that he, a product of a superstitious age would say anything different regarding the planets and the moon. But no, there is no evidence that the moon, planets, or the sun have any bearing on our lives beyond the very mundane effects of gravitational pull. None of these things affect a person's behavior, personality, or the progress of a planet. This has all been debunked several times by people who might know a bit more than even Pythagoras. We can be that bold because again, astrology is utterly fake and of no use to anyone.

Again I will look into this further but the sources on it may be suspect to you so I will try not to waste your time. From a personal point of view, it just makes a lot of sense, in terms of matematics and natural cycles.

I'm sorry but this is exactly the wishful thinking that I am describing because you are buying into something that has no evidence to support it. There is a difference between keeping an open mind and just letting everything in no matter how far fetched it is. I hope you realize that I actually am pretty open minded, but if something smells like a fraud, looks like a fraud, and sounds like a fraud, it's probably a fraud. It's not even good philosophy. I really hope you start to look at things a bit more analytically. You're a very intelligent person, but I really think you need to exercise more critical thinking with this sort of thing. I hope you know I'm not saying this to be mean. I just hate to see people I like get taken in by this sort of thing, especially if I like them.

I am very much an idealist and despite attempts to curb this it always rises to the top. I agree one must discriminate the information we process, in terms of probabilty, evidence and the underlying nature of things. Some can be discarded into a fictional heap and some are neatly stacked on the marked 'proved' shelf. There still remains a vast amount of unexplainedmysteries for my money so I will continue applying critical thought as I have been trying to do. If I was to agree with the mainstream view the discussion would suffer so occassionally I might throw in the more fantastical possibility, just to check you are still paying attention.

[Astute One]

what your suggesting is wide spread event where completely unconnected people are evolving exactly the same way. Mind shedding light on how this is happening.......? To me this sounds kinda like fantasy

Actually it is not as much fantasy as one would think. Most people don't know quantum physics. This has to do with entangled electron theory. Whatever is done to one electron instantly happens to its engtangled partner. It is thought that this phenomenon came to be when matter was created after the big bang when all electrons became entangled. This implies that quantum messages can be tranmitted from one place in space to another instantly regardless of distance. When an electron is molested, it's entangled partner gets molested instantly even if on the other side of the solar system.

Sounds unbelievable, doesn't it, but it's not.

The electron exists in a realm independent of what we perceive as space-time. Space-time doesn't exist in the electron world. Take space and time away, and the entangled electrons never become separated, because the concept of separate does not exist to the electron. That's why an electron can pop in an out of its orbit around an atom and can appear in two places at once.

Now, what is going to happen when physicists solve the quantum mysteries and then work their way backwards a creat a model that works in the visible world?

What would reality be like when we can behave like quantum particles?

What if we can but we just don't know it?

What if we just need to be taught similarly to riding a bike, driving a car, or walking; but we can't because our brain won't let us. For example when the brain prevents a person with a stroke from talking or walking, but with practice some can.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Astute One

[bigdaddyinge]

You sound more crazy than the people making all the doomsday prophecy. Are you psychic? Can you see the future? No, then you do not know what will happen and to continue claiming you do only affirms the stupidity inherent in the pseudoskeptic viewpoint.

One thing for certain that is schedule for 21/12/2012 is Swan Sat going online. I don't know for sure if this is true or if it another ploy but considering my post to Matt and my other research I find this extremely significant. Do you watch Lost?

There is evidence supporting it but the establishment chooses to discredit or ignore entirely the basis of these claims. What would be needed to convince you that there was a slim chance that it is not all BS but a return to knowledge that we have forgotten through our separation from our environment?

Do you like the world you live in? Could it be improved? How?

The future is not written, we are the creators of our own world, or we should be at least.

ok. let me clarify my statements. what i meant was that none of those things i mentioned will happen in association with any mayan prophesy of enlightenment, new age 2012 theories, super-evolution bologne, or the usual doomsday crap connected to 2012. of course i don't know if any of those things WILL, in fact, happen. i don't claim to be psychic nor do i believe those who do. what i'm fairly certain of is that NONE of those things will happen BECAUSE OF anything to do with the whole 2012 nonesense. yes, i believe that the world could be a much better place and that there are a multitude of wrong things that happen in this world. do i believe that some mystic super-evolution phenomenon occuring in the year 2012 is going to be the means of accomplishing this change? no, to me that is ridiculous. evolution occurs of a vast period of time, out of neccessity for survival. not overnight, and especially not because some freaks prophesized that this was gonna happen. yes, some people can become more spiritually connected to the world they live in and also become more aware of our impact as a species on that world. but does that mean they will suddenly develop super-powers of the mind or telekinesis? no way. yeah 2012 did signify a period of new beginning to the maya, but not some mystic transformation, just a reboot of the period of time that had just finished. and your indigo children thing has nothing to do with adhd or especially autism. my 4 year old son is autistic, and i can attest that the condition is definately not some special, mystically bestowed gift from forces unseen. it's a very serious, very distressing condition that needs full scientific research not new age mumbo jumbo. it's not a gift when your child is sick or hurt and you know something is wrong, but don't know what because YOUR CHILD CANNOT TELL YOU. it's not a gift when you cannot relate certain things to your child like do not eat plastic or other non-food items, or do not mess with electricity and such because it can hurt you, or even i can't give you what you want to eat if you don't tell me what that is, simply because the child doesn't understand when you attempt to make them understand. it's not a gift when a child is at the age of talkativeness and discovery, and you cannot even be certain that half of what you say to them is grasped. this is a very trying condition, and to link it to anything other than something seriously needing of scientific research for treatment possibilities is comepletely absurd.

[SlimJim22]

ok. let me clarify my statements. what i meant was that none of those things i mentioned will happen in association with any mayan prophesy of enlightenment, new age 2012 theories, super-evolution bologne, or the usual doomsday crap connected to 2012. of course i don't know if any of those things WILL, in fact, happen. i don't claim to be psychic nor do i believe those who do. what i'm fairly certain of is that NONE of those things will happen BECAUSE OF anything to do with the whole 2012 nonesense. yes, i believe that the world could be a much better place and that there are a multitude of wrong things that happen in this world. do i believe that some mystic super-evolution phenomenon occuring in the year 2012 is going to be the means of accomplishing this change? no, to me that is ridiculous. evolution occurs of a vast period of time, out of neccessity for survival. not overnight, and especially not because some freaks prophesized that this was gonna happen. yes, some people can become more spiritually connected to the world they live in and also become more aware of our impact as a species on that world. but does that mean they will suddenly develop super-powers of the mind or telekinesis? no way. yeah 2012 did signify a period of new beginning to the maya, but not some mystic transformation, just a reboot of the period of time that had just finished. and your indigo children thing has nothing to do with adhd or especially autism. my 4 year old son is autistic, and i can attest that the condition is definately not some special, mystically bestowed gift from forces unseen. it's a very serious, very distressing condition that needs full scientific research not new age mumbo jumbo. it's not a gift when your child is sick or hurt and you know something is wrong, but don't know what because YOUR CHILD CANNOT TELL YOU. it's not a gift when you cannot relate certain things to your child like do not eat plastic or other non-food items, or do not mess with electricity and such because it can hurt you, or even i can't give you what you want to eat if you don't tell me what that is, simply because the child doesn't understand when you attempt to make them understand. it's not a gift when a child is at the age of talkativeness and discovery, and you cannot even be certain that half of what you say to them is grasped. this is a very trying condition, and to link it to anything other than something seriously needing of scientific research for treatment possibilities is comepletely absurd.

Thanks for clarifying and I do appreciate how crazy some of this stuff may sound. My understanding of autism is that the empathy of the child is impaired. However, this is not the case with adhd although I don't know of any studies into adhd to explain it's causes. The thing is that indigo hildren might be just a descriptive term but it has been blown out of proportion by the new age, which I admit is mainly focussed around profiteering.

What I am thinking about 2012 and mysticism is, that it could be the start of a convergence between mysticism and science. One part of mysticism is sacred geometry, it is a fact that quantum physics are largely based on sacred geometry and the platonic solids. Strangely crop circles have become more and more complex and often have images incorporating Phi.

The other part of mysticism, for me at least concerns dna and the brain. Now if science could support these theories and they culd become unified then we could well be on our way to full understanding the dna strand including the ten strands of junk dna. As Astute one mentions above, the one is connected to the all in quantum theory. So, that means that if one or more receive a benefit and it can be encoded into dna then that benefit can be passed on without ohysical contact.

A tudy was done in Japan where macau monkey were given sweet potatoes dropped in sand. They were observed round the clock and one mother monkey was the first to discover that they could be washed in a stream. This was passed on to the immdediate group but something funny happenned when the number of monkeys using the technique reached 100. Now all monkeys on the surrounding islands started employing the technique. How can this be explained without a collective consciousness or quantum entanglement. I don't get the science 100% myself but what I do know makes a lot of sense.

[drakonwick]

The capacity for humans to want to try and understand absolutely everything, even without a means to do so, is utterly astounding.

Then you have the confounding superiority statement used by most scientists, that if there is no evidence for something, then it

simply doesn't exist. WOW, just WOOOW! How can so many educated people,(and I use those words loosely!), be so self-absorbed, that

thinking that anything seemingly irrational or out of the ordinary, doesn't exist just because it cannot be explained through our

current means of understanding.

[SlimJim22]

The capacity for humans to want to try and understand absolutely everything, even without a means to do so, is utterly astounding.

Then you have the confounding superiority statement used by most scientists, that if there is no evidence for something, then it

simply doesn't exist. WOW, just WOOOW! How can so many educated people,(and I use those words loosely!), be so self-absorbed, that

thinking that anything seemingly irrational or out of the ordinary, doesn't exist just because it cannot be explained through our

current means of understanding.

Maybe change is a generational thing. So, although this crop of scientists may be as you say. However, the next generation will have grown up in a digital world, with String theory, dna research, quantum physics and much more all at the forefront of consciousness. This is bound to have an effect, so change is inevitable and an eventual acceptance of how little we know could be not too distant. To move forward some times you must stand back and reevaluate. We are too proud imo to admit our ignorance.

[Mattshark]

Maybe change is a generational thing. So, although this crop of scientists may be as you say. However, the next generation will have grown up in a digital world, with String theory, dna research, quantum physics and much more all at the forefront of consciousness. This is bound to have an effect, so change is inevitable and an eventual acceptance of how little we know could be not too distant. To move forward some times you must stand back and reevaluate. We are too proud imo to admit our ignorance.

The problem is that science doesn't that conscious has no associations with string theory or quantum physics, that is simply misapplication. Quantum theory does not mix with biology of the brain, which evidence points to as the source of our mind (and overwhelmingly so). The idea of quantum mind has been falsified because of something that gets widely ignored by the new quantum religion, decoherence, which for a quantum effect is about 400 femtoseconds (which is 0.00000000000004 of a second), nothing in the human body goes that fast, the fast thing is 18 million times slower.

[SlimJim22]

The problem is that science doesn't that conscious has no associations with string theory or quantum physics, that is simply misapplication. Quantum theory does not mix with biology of the brain, which evidence points to as the source of our mind (and overwhelmingly so). The idea of quantum mind has been falsified because of something that gets widely ignored by the new quantum religion, decoherence, which for a quantum effect is about 400 femtoseconds (which is 0.00000000000004 of a second), nothing in the human body goes that fast, the fast thing is 18 million times slower.

Hey Matt, you know I can't discuss specifics with you but I ill happily listen to your argument.

This is what I am currently reading and it may help you to gain an insight into the direction I will be researching further.

There are good links at the bottom of page to other articles I have or will be reading.

http://www.esalenctr.org/display/confpage.cfm?confid=8&pageid=70&pgtype=1

I'm glad you brought up vibrations as that is the key imo. Did you know that the human body is full of magnetite and not just located in the brain though in the body it may be diamagetic (?)? What frequency ould maganetite vibrate at theoretically?

http://web.gps.caltech.edu/~jkirschvink/pdfs/KirschvinkBEMS92.pdf

There would be some ironic beauty if it was the bacteria that was being overlooked.

[Mattshark]

Hey Matt, you know I can't discuss specifics with you but I ill happily listen to your argument.

This is what I am currently reading and it may help you to gain an insight into the direction I will be researching further.

There are good links at the bottom of page to other articles I have or will be reading.

http://www.esalenctr.org/display/confpage.cfm?confid=8&pageid=70&pgtype=1

I seriously suggest reading better articles. This stuff is not only incorrect and demonstrably so, it is useless and gives you nothing in terms of information, basically it is intellectual diarrhoea and insults those who work there lives away really studying this. This stuff was debunked in the 50's and lives on today by the new age equivalent of young earth creationists. It is wrong, but likes to ignore the wide range of thinks that shows it wrong.

This is cherry picked stuff by people don't understand the science in the first place and basically want to spread their own ignorance and stupidity, they ignore what the don't like and doesn't fit their idea and all the hard stuff and pretend that it has worth, it doesn't and they are despised by the real scientists in the field.

If you want real quantum mechanics, be prepared for a very large volume of maths, it is very complex and takes a long time to get through, there is no quick fix to education. If you want this rubbish, you're on your own.

But I am promising you know, quantum mind is dead in the water.

I'm glad you brought up vibrations as that is the key imo. Did you know that the human body is full of magnetite and not just located in the brain though in the body it may be diamagetic (?)? What frequency ould maganetite vibrate at theoretically?

http://web.gps.caltech.edu/~jkirschvink/pdfs/KirschvinkBEMS92.pdf

There would be some ironic beauty if it was the bacteria that was being overlooked.

I didn't bring up vibrations.

No, magnetite is paramagnetic at 840k+ less than that it is ferromagnetic.

And yes I know magnetite well as I did a module on navigation for my MSc and I know plenty about magnetorecption thanks my interest in sharks, not sure why this is relevant though or why bacteria are relevant.

[SlimJim22]

I seriously suggest reading better articles. This stuff is not only incorrect and demonstrably so, it is useless and gives you nothing in terms of information, basically it is intellectual diarrhoea and insults those who work there lives away really studying this. This stuff was debunked in the 50's and lives on today by the new age equivalent of young earth creationists. It is wrong, but likes to ignore the wide range of thinks that shows it wrong.

This is cherry picked stuff by people don't understand the science in the first place and basically want to spread their own ignorance and stupidity, they ignore what the don't like and doesn't fit their idea and all the hard stuff and pretend that it has worth, it doesn't and they are despised by the real scientists in the field.

If you want real quantum mechanics, be prepared for a very large volume of maths, it is very complex and takes a long time to get through, there is no quick fix to education. If you want this rubbish, you're on your own.

But I am promising you know, quantum mind is dead in the water.

I didn't bring up vibrations.

No, magnetite is paramagnetic at 840k+ less than that it is ferromagnetic.

And yes I know magnetite well as I did a module on navigation for my MSc and I know plenty about magnetorecption thanks my interest in sharks, not sure why this is relevant though or why bacteria are relevant.

Fair enough! Personally I think the science of Qi holds enormous potential for the future but we will have to wait and see.

Sorry I thought you did mention vibrations. I have an idea more than a theory that goes, the magnetite in the brain is positively charged, the magnetite in bacteria in the body is negatively charged. Together they form an EM field or aura. With you being well versed on the subject you are surely the best to point out my failings. How off am I?

[TheSearcher]

Fair enough! Personally I think the science of Qi holds enormous potential for the future but we will have to wait and see.

Sorry I thought you did mention vibrations. I have an idea more than a theory that goes, the magnetite in the brain is positively charged, the magnetite in bacteria in the body is negatively charged. Together they form an EM field or aura. With you being well versed on the subject you are surely the best to point out my failings. How off am I?

Since we're talking nano particles of magnetite, I'm not sure if there's any interaction at all.

[sepulchrave]

Fair enough! Personally I think the science of Qi holds enormous potential for the future but we will have to wait and see.

Sorry I thought you did mention vibrations. I have an idea more than a theory that goes, the magnetite in the brain is positively charged, the magnetite in bacteria in the body is negatively charged. Together they form an EM field or aura. With you being well versed on the subject you are surely the best to point out my failings. How off am I?

You probably shouldn't talk about magnets as `positively' or `negatively' charged.

Of course they could be, but that would create an electric field. They would also only stay charged if they were kept completely out of contact with everything else - which is tricky to accomplish inside your body.

If the magnetite particles are aligned they would act as a single magnet. I don't know how strong this magnetic field would be, but since the body is mostly water and water is partially diamagnetic, I doubt that even if all the magnetite were aligned a human would generate any significant magnetic field.

It is obvious that whatever field we have is much less than the Earth's field, since people don't affect compasses.

[SlimJim22]

You probably shouldn't talk about magnets as `positively' or `negatively' charged.

Of course they could be, but that would create an electric field. They would also only stay charged if they were kept completely out of contact with everything else - which is tricky to accomplish inside your body.

If the magnetite particles are aligned they would act as a single magnet. I don't know how strong this magnetic field would be, but since the body is mostly water and water is partially diamagnetic, I doubt that even if all the magnetite were aligned a human would generate any significant magnetic field.

It is obvious that whatever field we have is much less than the Earth's field, since people don't affect compasses.

I was kinda thinking that it was the opposed magentism that was creating auras or human energy fields. Just humour me that such a thing exists and if it does that it relates to EM. I mentioned about it being bacteria that contained magnetite aswell, I don't know if this is possible or relevant but as I mentioned to Mattshark it would be ironic.

No, we don not affect compasses, or most of us don't anyway but I am really interested in the interactions between the Earths EM filed and our own. I may well be clutching at straws but this is where my gut is currently pulling me. It could just be trapped wind of course.

[Virot Maglan]

Reminds me of the Innovators and Innovade's that appeared in Gundam 00.