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Atheists and Fundamentalists


Doc Socks Junior

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Define - extremists for me please... your version can't be just having a loud voice...?

Since you asked nicely, here's my personal definition...

An extremist is a zealot who wishes to impose their views on everybody and force every single person to live according to their beliefs.

A person with a loud voice simply wishes to be heard and not really wants to impose their beliefs on people, and simply wants to live their own life. The loud voice is simply a style of expression, much like Sam Kinison, who shouted a lot on stage.

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I don't paint all Christians as fanatic, but I do have my own hostilities about them from a lot of negative experiences I've had since I was a child.

But, I do try to be fair to people and I will be fair to people who'll be fair to me.

A Speaking as an atheist.

I'm sorry that you've had bad experiences and I'm glad to hear that you've overcome them and can accept people for who they are. :tu:

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Since you asked nicely, here's my personal definition...

An extremist is a zealot who wishes to impose their views on everybody and force every single person to live according to their beliefs.

A person with a loud voice simply wishes to be heard and not really wants to impose their beliefs on people, and simply wants to live their own life. The loud voice is simply a style of expression, much like Sam Kinison, who shouted a lot on stage.

I think you are right - extremism starts when someone's views breach the other people's privacy. This is where the line has to be drawn. Loud voice or quiet, it does not matter at all, as the discussion styles are different for different people; what matters is the presence of "you must" in the speech. Anti-abortionists are a great example! They do not simply abstain from abortion themselves - they want the others to abstain, and are trying to enforce, intimidate and even kill them to achieve the primate of their own views. Who cares about a fella worshiping Jesus in his private apartment or in a secluded church building? No one! We only start to care when this fella goes public and starts to intimidate, insult, threaten the other people with eternal torture and damnation, which his Jesus prescribes to the non-followers. It is the same as we are not opposed to a dog which bites on its premises, this is its function after all - but we oppose a dog which runs uncontrolled in the public places, biting people indiscriminately, so we put this dog down.

No one can prove to me that American Atheists have no reason to take an aggressive stance - their aggression only defends their "territory", as it is constantly intruded by the religious loonies out there, unseen in the rest of the world. But certainly, they can also over-react, and become loonies themselves. Atheism in some parts of Europe was predominant already in the end of 18th century, and by the end of 19th century only few countries retained religious populations (Rumania, Poland, Italy), while the others were already firmly Atheistic. USA is at least 100 years behind in this sense, despite its Constitution denies any political importance of the religious organisations. Ideally it has to be regulated by Law, like in France or in old USSR, you start religious propaganda in a public domain place, you go to jail. The law sees such propaganda as unnatural and noxious, as the religions are private, they are between God and a person, not between a person and the rest of society, as society usually incorporates a spectrum of religious and anti-religious views, all in a private fashion. Its the same as instead of going to a public toilet to start relieving oneself in a street.

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I understand what Michelle means - and I also find some Atheists as annoying in their militant attitude. This looks ridiculously to me - belief or disbelief in God is a truly private thing, why bother expressing it publicly? But I explain it with the inferior ideological base of these Atheists, as they are not really able to explain why do not they believe in God, they simply cannot make themselves to believe, but they are not true Agnostics and probably still keep some reservation that they may be wrong. They lack integrity - and substitute this lack by the excess of aggression.

There is also another possibility - the Atheist "movement" as we see it now, can be a major provocation by one of the leading Christian churches, most likely by RCC (which has enough funds to undertake such complex operation). I would not be surprised if this is all arranged in order to compromise Atheism as an ideology, as the Church is obviously still under impression that Atheism is just a heresy, organized by Heresiarch Charles Darwin, this is why they keep attacking the old fart even now, thinking that debunking him would return the lost sheep back to the flock. I see this as a waste of human energy of course and a fight with windmills, but hardly Vatican sees it the same way. They most likely cannot imagine that some people can just not believe in the fairy tales, and see Atheism as a sect of a sort. Hence they organise these ridiculous "conventions", websites etc - hoping to gather the Atheists in one crowd, and then demonstrate a miracle, by converting some Hawkins and thus makinf his "flock" to follow him back into the Church hugs. A vaudeville!

This one, right here...your last post...

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Since you asked nicely, here's my personal definition...

An extremist is a zealot who wishes to impose their views on everybody and force every single person to live according to their beliefs.

A person with a loud voice simply wishes to be heard and not really wants to impose their beliefs on people, and simply wants to live their own life. The loud voice is simply a style of expression, much like Sam Kinison, who shouted a lot on stage.

Ok you used the word - Force <-- tell me something... where in the article does it show that these atheists used any force?

Having a loud voice and voicing your opinions on faith not to forget wanting others to follow is not the definition of - an extremist...it's the definition of a fundie

An extremist uses force...and would even hurt and kill those that do not comply.....<-- this I have not seen in the article of those atheists..

.

The flaw there is you're painting a group with a large brush.

That by the sounds of it, is what you have done, you have made it out as though these atheists mentioned are extremeists ( as seen in your previous post to Michelle)

Edited by Beckys_Mom
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Ok you used the word - Force <-- tell me something... where in the article does it show that these atheists used any force?

My post was not about the article but her post.

Having a loud voice and voicing your opinions on faith not to forget wanting others to follow is not the definition of - an extremist...it's the definition of a fundie

A fundie is no different that an extremists and also uses force.

That by the sounds of it, is what you have done, you have made it out as though these atheists mentioned are extremeists ( as seen in your previous post to Michelle)

\

bull. Now you're just being dishonest. It was indeed she who was painting all atheists with a large brush that I was addressing. Read her post.

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My post was not about the article but her post.

As her post was solely about the atheists in the article.. then that makes your reply to her post.. about the article.. period

A fundie is no different that an extremists and also uses force

So in your opinion...IE - christians fundies use force.. and by that they hurt others to get them to follow...even use threats of violence? or worse killing?

Wanna try posting something that tells us IE - of christian fundies using force by the use of violence or threatening violence to get others to follow their faith?... and yes it must say - the use of violence as that is using direct force... as we know just using a loud mouthed opinion is not exactly using force now is it?<-- the loud mouthed opinions fit the fundies.. not the expremists.... this is why the two differ....

Now you're just being dishonest. It was indeed she who was painting all atheists with a large brush that I was addressing. Read her post.

Im not being remotely dishonest.. for if she was solely talking about the atheists in the article.. and you quote her opinion to give your reply.. then obviously that is what you are talking about too.. it makes sense..

Sorry but no dishonesty involved here.. I am replying to what I read... contents only... :tu:

Edited by Beckys_Mom
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So in your opinion...IE - christians fundies use force.. and by that they hurt others to get them to follow...even use threats of violence? or worse killing?

Wanna try posting something that tells us IE - of christian fundies using force by the use of violence or threatening violence to get others to follow their faith?... and yes it must say - the use of violence as that is using direct force... as we know just using a loud mouthed opinion is not exactly using force now is it?<-- the loud mouthed opinions fit the fundies.. not the expremists.... this is why the two differ....

Sorry for interfering... No, American Christian fundies do not use force, but they do express the readiness to use such force IF they occur in position to use it. For now they go by Law more or less (except in the cases like shooting the abortion doctors), but there is indication that they would change this Law if become capable to. Say, Law in USA prohibits to burn the witches, and they obey this law - instead they go to Africa and burn the witches there...

This is why the assertive stance of American Atheists can be understood - they may well feel physically threatened.

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Off-topic thoughts, please post on the Off-Topic Board. Or discuss by PM. Keeps things nice and tidy that way. :tu:

Karlis

No one is off topic Karlis... as this topic is called - Atheists and Fundamentalists.. that is what we are talking about and yes christians are mentioned too all goes hand in hand.....just saying :tu:

Edited by Beckys_Mom
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Sorry for interfering... No, American Christian fundies do not use force, but they do express the readiness to use such force IF they occur in position to use it.

I know they don't.............. just like the atheists in the OP... no force is used therefore cannot be classed as extremists<-- well that was my point lol

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Folks, please read my previous post >>> at this link.

From the OP --> The irony is that this current brand of aggressive atheism is just another form of fundamentalism.

Yea.. and that is what everyone is discussing on here......I do not see any problem...

In many topics like this.. some will try and use extreme terms to describle a group of people.. but seen as a brand of aggresive atheism... is another way of just saying - making their voices heard loud and clear... thats it.. and that is not something I call extremist, not even the slightest

Christians do this too.. that doesn't make them all a bunch of extremists either.. again the point I made previously

IMO and many of others would agree......extremists will use force and even threats to get others to comply...............I do not see that in the OP with the atheists...<--again the point I have been making...

Edited by Beckys_Mom
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What's he's trying to say to you, that you fail to acknowledge, in your rant above...."atheists this and atheists that" that you're generalizing, basing your assumptions that the most vocal and extreme of the group are representative of the whole.....the very thing you complain about atheists doing when they label all Christians as fanatics. And furthermore, you seem to like point out the hypocrisy in atheists, while you are guilty here of doing the same thing.

This is exactly how I'd reply to the pastor.

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As her post was solely about the atheists in the article.. then that makes your reply to her post.. about the article.. period

Thank you, BM...I thought it would be obvious, but I guess one should never assume. :rolleyes:

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Why are so many fundies vocal about their beleifs.

Simple everybody feels the need to be right. The stromger that urge the stronger the protest when opposition appears.

Or that they believe that a better life awaits and are trying to get you to turn to it for your own sake. Maybe they truly do care. When I preach, that is my motive. I don't care about pleasing men. I care about pleasing God, and God cares about peoples' souls.

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Or that they believe that a better life awaits and are trying to get you to turn to it for your own sake. Maybe they truly do care. When I preach, that is my motive. I don't care about pleasing men. I care about pleasing God, and God cares about peoples' souls.

This is why there is opposition to your position. You impose on other people. Would you like me coming to you and telling you your living your life wrong and I can teach you how to live it like me.

You really should care about pleasing mankind as isn't that what Jesus wanted. How do you please a ?

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No one who presumes to possess grandiose mental gifts should stoop to lumping all believers of all faiths, or for that matter all Christians, or even all Baptists or Catholics, into a single mindless blob.

I wish these atheists would venture, say, into a seminary library. They'd find tens of thousands of volumes written by thinkers great and obscure across two millennia.

They'd find works by scholars who take every word of the Bible literally and works by others who argue that most of the Scripture is made up and that Jesus said almost nothing attributed to him. They'd find every gradation between those extremes.

They'd find the musings of Christians who are pompous, exclusionary and delusional. They'd find Christians who are tolerant and humble and pillars of common sense.

They'd learn that Christians were the driving force behind the establishment of public schools and the abolition of slavery, just as, regrettably, other Christians launched the Crusades.

Read more: http://www.kentucky.com/2010/06/12/1303777/paul-prather-new-atheists-embody.html#ixzz0rjVb4t64

This quotation says it all. If the author believes that atheists should recognize the diversity of beliefs between Christians, shouldn't the same be said about atheists?

There are those extreme atheists who decry everyone and everything that has even a hint of support for religion or faith. If you see atheism as a system of belief, which I don't, but if you do, then you should recognize that there is diversity inside that group as well.

I don't believe that Bill Maher (sp?) or Richard Dawkins are setting the groundwork for a new, radical Atheism. There are no documents, rules, or a set order of beliefs that they share with one another. Sure, they have an agenda, which is obviously anti-religion of any kind, but that's not enough to call it a system of beliefs onto itself. Atheism is more of a stance on a very difficult subject and nothing more than that.

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It's because it's hard not to speak out about someone's beliefs when they seem ridiculous to you. If 70% of america just up and decided that they truly believe in Santa Clause one day and took it dead serious(Incorporating it into our every day lives and all), I bet you'd feel the urge to speak out.

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Shaun Zero,

I know where you are coming from, but why can't people just live and let live.

I believe that Christianity needs to quit their obsession with proselytizing their religion to others. Missionaries have been active in the Americas ever since the first explorers landed. They would preach to the native populations and get them to convert, mostly with a guarantee of better treatment and benefits. As such, the tradition of "spreading the word" of the gospel has been kept alive with Evangelical TV preachers. This is the section of Christianity that I do have a problem with because they are dead set in converting "non-believers" to the "way of the lord". They don't think about how rude or disrespectful it is to constantly pressure someone into changing their way of thinking. That just turns me off.

I suppose that the manner of how a person practices their faith is the real question. Do they hold their faith as a personal belief and mind their own business, or do they vehemently protects and promote their beliefs because of some perceived mandate from god?

Edited by H.H. Holmes
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If religion had no opposition where would we be today?

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If religion had no opposition where would we be today?

Fighting over football,hockey and politics :tu:

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This is why there is opposition to your position. You impose on other people.

Life is imposing ST. The weather is imposing. Christianity is a belief. Its something you can reject if you don't want it. Everybody knows that. Simply saying, "Imposing" only draws up dead memories from history books that have no place in today's adaptive society. I didn't say, ST, you have to accept what I believe. I would say that you 'should.' Am I in anyway twisting your arm? No.

If, by your logic, simply offering a choice is imposing, then the world's media and advertisements should be your biggest source of frustration.

Would you like me coming to you and telling you your living your life wrong and I can teach you how to live it like me.

If I am living my life wrong, I actually might appreciate somebody taking the time to let me know. I won't be offended that somebody cares enough to point out my shortcomings.

You really should care about pleasing mankind as isn't that what Jesus wanted. How do you please a ?

Nope. You follow God's commands with a loving heart toward God and take care of his creation.

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If I am living my life wrong, I actually might appreciate somebody taking the time to let me know. I won't be offended that somebody cares enough to point out my shortcomings.

Would you be offended if they told you that you will be condemned to an eternity of suffering and hellfire if you don't convert to their ways? It is all about the manner in which the religious approach spreading their religion to non-believers, which is sometimes just flat out rude.

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