Atheists and Fundamentalists

[Michelle]

Life is imposing ST. The weather is imposing. Christianity is a belief. Its something you can reject if you don't want it. Everybody knows that. Simply saying, "Imposing" only draws up dead memories from history books that have no place in today's adaptive society. I didn't say, ST, you have to accept what I believe. I would say that you 'should.' Am I in anyway twisting your arm? No.

If, by your logic, simply offering a choice is imposing, then the world's media and advertisements should be your biggest source of frustration.

If I am living my life wrong, I actually might appreciate somebody taking the time to let me know. I won't be offended that somebody cares enough to point out my shortcomings.

Nope. You follow God's commands with a loving heart toward God and take care of his creation.

My question is...if someone tells you that they aren't interested do you back off?

[The Silver Thong]

Fighting over football,hockey and politics

true, can you explain why Canada didn't make it to the world cup. I hear we ranked a bit better than some playing?

[The Silver Thong]

My question is...if someone tells you that they aren't interested do you back off?

That's not the issue. If someone comes to my door peddling there wears than I would not take issue. It's what happens in the courts that I take issue. It's what happens in the school's it's what happens in the media and politics. One a one on one that's ok however I have little control of what happens when it comes to law and how religion seems to be in the courts all the time.

They are the majority and yet still think they need more, why? I take issue as they will not stop trying to change law such as putting religion in public schools. That thread just vanished into thin air why? I can tell you but I might get in crap.

I am sorry if i am defending the very small minority against the vast majority, but isn't that why I have the same rights as the majority. So that the majority doesn't squash me into the ground. Hence the constitution.

Sorry Michelle I wasn't meaning this at you but just a rebuttal to what was said if it was turned around.

Edited June 24, 2010 by The Silver Thong

[Bluefinger]

Would you be offended if they told you that you will be condemned to an eternity of suffering and hellfire if you don't convert to their ways?

Interesting use of words: "Convert to their ways." If that is what you think Christians want, then you have not experienced real Christianity. I notice people who are so depressed that nothing can satisfy them. They have built their happiness on things in this life that perish. You see, God doesn't perish. Christianity isn't about how good you are. Its about how good God is.

People keep reverting back to the man side of Christianity and not the God side. Christianity without God is likely the embarrassments you have come to experience (if any).

It is all about the manner in which the religious approach spreading their religion to non-believers, which is sometimes just flat out rude.

Its all in how you take it I guess. I'm not really trying to please you by changing. It is what it is like the weather is what it is.

[Michelle]

No worries, ST...I know where you are coming from.

[The Silver Thong]

Life is imposing ST. The weather is imposing. Christianity is a belief. Its something you can reject if you don't want it. Everybody knows that. Simply saying, "Imposing" only draws up dead memories from history books that have no place in today's adaptive society. I didn't say, ST, you have to accept what I believe. I would say that you 'should.' Am I in anyway twisting your arm? No.

If, by your logic, simply offering a choice is imposing, then the world's media and advertisements should be your biggest source of frustration.

If I am living my life wrong, I actually might appreciate somebody taking the time to let me know. I won't be offended that somebody cares enough to point out my shortcomings.

Nope. You follow God's commands with a loving heart toward God and take care of his creation.

To sum this up you look down on people that don't believe. It's not a choice you offer. It's heaven or hell. You don't think your right but you actually think you have proof your right. Yes religion does twist arms.

Do you take offense in me saying I think you are living your life as a 5 year old on Christmas morning and just doing the bare minimum to get better presents next year? Dogs behave on a reward program, people not as much.

I don't mean to offend but I am slightly offended. Saying that it's both our right to be offended.

Edited June 24, 2010 by The Silver Thong

[H.H. Holmes]

Interesting use of words: "Convert to their ways." If that is what you think Christians want, then you have not experienced real Christianity. I notice people who are so depressed that nothing can satisfy them. They have built their happiness on things in this life that perish. You see, God doesn't perish. Christianity isn't about how good you are. Its about how good God is.

People keep reverting back to the man side of Christianity and not the God side. Christianity without God is likely the embarrassments you have come to experience (if any).

Its all in how you take it I guess. I'm not really trying to please you by changing. It is what it is like the weather is what it is.

I respect your opinion, but what is "real" Christianity? How do you define a real Christian? Is it the spreading of the gospel to further promote their philosophy on how life should be lived because that's mainly the goal of preaching religion. By preaching, I mean promoting and by conversion I mean making someone else identify as a member of a certain religion through persuasion or appeal. I believe that is what is being discussed, not just a casual conversation about religion. I know that it's a thin line to tread sometimes between discussion and promotion, but that is just how this topic is.

Either Christianity is, as you said, about the love of God or the love of man. I agree, that Christianity should be about God's message and not some person's tool to gain influence, if that's what you mean by the "man" side of Christianity? Although I don't think you can truly understand a religion without taking into account the followers and their own interpretations of their beliefs. Religions are always evolving and changing to the times or circumstances they are faced with. I cannot say that one person is not a "true" Christian because there is no common definition of what a real Christian is.

[Bluefinger]

My question is...if someone tells you that they aren't interested do you back off?

Of course. I try to earn my right to share the Gospel. That is what most people do on missions. They get to know the person they are with so that they can share some good, but often times uncomfortable news. Its not that they want brainless converts. Far be it! Missionaries want people to have peace in their lives, even if it is just knowing that they are loved.

Christians aren't content with just trying to have a happy life here on earth and then die. Its something more. They want others to feel God's joy. I can't explain that any other way to you. I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't understand.

[Bluefinger]

To sum this up you look down on people that don't believe. It's not a choice you offer. It's heaven or hell. You don't think your right but you actually think you have proof your right. Yes religion does twist arms.

It is a choice ST. People who choose happiness in this world lose their sense of peace when their world falls apart. To the person that loves nothing...what a sad state they are in! My religion twists nothing. People twist, just like you are twisting things to make it say what you want it to say. Whatever you experienced in the past, I encourage you to put it aside and reexamine every argument outside of those past memories.

Do you take offense in me saying I think you are living your life as a 5 year old on Christmas morning and just doing the bare minimum to get better presents next year? Dogs behave on a reward program, people not as much.

I don't follow Jesus based on works. You know Christianity is about faith in Christ's faithfulness. "God demonstrated His love for us in this: That while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Why do I have to repeat this to you as though you don't know?

I don't mean to offend but I am slightly offended. Saying that it's both our right to be offended.

Even if I said that Jesus is Lord, somehow you could twist that into me saying, "Be good or burn in hell!" I'm not offended at all. I quite expect that reaction. I hope for better though.

[Bluefinger]

I respect your opinion, but what is "real" Christianity? How do you define a real Christian? Is it the spreading of the gospel to further promote their philosophy on how life should be lived because that's mainly the goal of preaching religion. By preaching, I mean promoting and by conversion I mean making someone else identify as a member of a certain religion through persuasion or appeal. I believe that is what is being discussed, not just a casual conversation about religion. I know that it's a thin line to tread sometimes between discussion and promotion, but that is just how this topic is.

When we discuss something, we discuss what we believe. There is that rhetoric behind the discussion that promotes what we believe. Otherwise, why would we speak at all? Just to hear ourselves talk?

Either Christianity is, as you said, about the love of God or the love of man. I agree, that Christianity should be about God's message and not some person's tool to gain influence, if that's what you mean by the "man" side of Christianity? Although I don't think you can truly understand a religion without taking into account the followers and their own interpretations of their beliefs. Religions are always evolving and changing to the times or circumstances they are faced with. I cannot say that one person is not a "true" Christian because there is no common definition of what a real Christian is.

If you want to know what real Christianity is, you have to get to know people and find out what motivates them to follow their religion. A real Christian is absolutely in love with Jesus and wants to please God and make him proud, even if it costs him/her to forfeit his/her life. They love God more than heaven and more than happiness. That is a real Christian. There is no heaven without God. Just God, who fills heaven with His presence.

On the contrary, a fake or undeveloped Christian will worship God for gain. They want God to keep blessing them. They want to enjoy this life. Through good deeds and self-control, they believe that God can be manipulated into blessing them. When He decides to take a blessing from them, they fall from faith. God is not a god shaped by human hands.

And then there are those that worship God only to get to heaven. They don't care if there is a lost soul in a bar who is drinking himself to death because his wife cheated on him. They won't set a foot near a bar because 'that could lead them astray.' They won't compromise their good standing.

Such lack of faith can cause a person to wear a religious mask. To everyone else, they are a good Christian. But inside, they are struggling. They have to feed themselves with the next religious thing just to keep themselves convinced that they have it together. This creates a lack of accountability, which causes us to become less concerned with other peoples' struggles.

Christianity isn't just an instantaneous thing. It doesn't happen over night. Christianity is a lifelong process in which God constantly calls us to be faithful by giving us grace to carry on. He wants us to want Him, and thereby wanting to be concerned about what God is concerned about: Justice, mercy, compassion, and love.

Christians who have really put their trust in God demonstrate it with justice, mercy, compassion, and love. They aren't scared to fall because they know what they truly believe. Those are the real Christians. I recommend reading Real Christianity by William Wilberforce, the British politician who fought to end the slave trade in traditionally Christian Britain. He attacked the 'fakers' by saying that they carry on a Christian appearance, even culture (much like our right wing evangelicals), but lack the earnest conviction to know God and take up the cause of the oppressed. They are worried about their Christian culture falling apart. And in their inactivity to do what Christ wants to do, their culture will fall apart anyway.

There is a HUGE difference between real Christians and fake Christians. The difference is like night and day.

Edited June 24, 2010 by Bluefinger

[Michelle]

I can't explain that any other way to you. I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't understand.

I would be surprised that you could convert anyone with that condescending attitude of yours.

[MARAB0D]

Of course. I try to earn my right to share the Gospel. That is what most people do on missions. They get to know the person they are with so that they can share some good, but often times uncomfortable news. Its not that they want brainless converts. Far be it! Missionaries want people to have peace in their lives, even if it is just knowing that they are loved.

Christians aren't content with just trying to have a happy life here on earth and then die. Its something more. They want others to feel God's joy. I can't explain that any other way to you. I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't understand.

Sorry for me having read your post - *Snip* I say this with a shadow of admiration If I only had a 10% of this ability to start one the same failed thing over and over again, and used this in business, I would've been travelling in a Rolls-Royce with a driver-bodyguard for years already... Just envy, don't worry.

Marabod, please note the UM posting rules. One of them is:

3f. Abusive behaviour: Do not be rude, insulting, offensive, snide, obnoxious or abusive towards other members.

Edited June 24, 2010 by Karlis
deleted personal, rude remark,

[Bluefinger]

Sorry for me having read your post - *Snip* I say this with a shadow of admiration If I only had a 10% of this ability to start one the same failed thing over and over again, and used this in business, I would've been travelling in a Rolls-Royce with a driver-bodyguard for years already... Just envy, don't worry.

Leeches make money, and want more. I'm broke as a joke and dedicate 95% my time toward others. I get one day a week where I get to relax and recharge (and I don't often take it.) Not that I need to defend myself, but you have made no worthy attempt at responding to what you didn't like about my statement. Simply saying, "I don't like it" does in no way suggest that others shouldn't like it either.

Edited June 24, 2010 by Karlis

[Bluefinger]

I would be surprised that you could convert anyone with that condescending attitude of yours.

I'm sorry you got that impression from my statement. I didn't mean for it to sound condescending. That definitely way not my attitude. If I find something hard to understand, I let people know this so that they don't think that I'm oblivious to that fact.

[Beckys_Mom]

Leeches make money, and want more.

Thats not leaches Blue...to make money and want to make more money is known as - business....

Leaches are those that like to sponge off IE the goverment and do diddly squat for it.. or those that will constantly ask you for money and not care to pay you backl

Don't confuse the two... to make money and want to make more is a great thing.. it shows you are hard working and you do not wish to see your family go down the shoot to the point where you wind up sponging off the goverment aka other peoples tax dollars

If people who make a lot of money and still want to keep on going... I admire them... it tells me they where hard working and didn't stop....

[The Silver Thong]

I watched a movie called Clock work Orange years ago and it left me with a funny feeling in my stomach. I'm feeling that right now.

[MARAB0D]

Leeches make money, and want more. I'm broke as a joke and dedicate 95% my time toward others. I get one day a week where I get to relax and recharge (and I don't often take it.) Not that I need to defend myself, but you have made no worthy attempt at responding to what you didn't like about my statement. Simply saying, "I don't like it" does in no way suggest that others shouldn't like it either.

Sorry if you took my words in such sense; it is of course a hard exchange, as Mr Karlis edited both my post and your reply, so it is not easy to discover an authentic sense now - but I was just meaning the ability to choose some position/action and persevere no matter what. It was in no way implying that you are targeting some physical profits from this modus operandi, as I know from yourself that it is all done to earn a post-mortal reward, which is immaterial. By now I got used to you and cannot really say "I do not like it" as I accept you as you appear, at face value.

[Bluefinger]

Sorry if you took my words in such sense; it is of course a hard exchange, as Mr Karlis edited both my post and your reply, so it is not easy to discover an authentic sense now - but I was just meaning the ability to choose some position/action and persevere no matter what. It was in no way implying that you are targeting some physical profits from this modus operandi, as I know from yourself that it is all done to earn a post-mortal reward, which is immaterial. By now I got used to you and cannot really say "I do not like it" as I accept you as you appear, at face value.

I don't do things for post-mortal reward. I love God more than that. Don't you see now? If I love my life more than God, then how much do I really love God? I hope that my appearance to you has changed, and hopefully Christianity in general.

[MARAB0D]

I don't do things for post-mortal reward. I love God more than that. Don't you see now? If I love my life more than God, then how much do I really love God? I hope that my appearance to you has changed, and hopefully Christianity in general.

But you have to understand that I do not love God! I do not even fully understand what exactly you mean when saying "God". People are great in their diversity, some love God, and some may love beer, greyhound races or collecting stamps. And in their diversity they see God differently, yours is just one case of 6 billion, as you are one of 6 billion God's images. if all become like you (or me) then this God would lose the perfection, he would be just a factory-grown chicken with a standard weight. It is good you found something to love, some hobby, but it does not mean all other would share this your hobby.

[Beckys_Mom]

I don't do things for post-mortal reward. I love God more than that. Don't you see now? If I love my life more than God, then how much do I really love God? I hope that my appearance to you has changed, and hopefully Christianity in general.

I love and fully trust in god........but I love my child a lot more than god.....as my child is not an item of - blind faith' she is real and in the flesh...I hold hard evidence of her and I am fully responsible for her.................God on the other hand, I am not responsible for.. nor do I have to worry about him 24/7..... round that all up.. it shows I have more love for my child and would place her over any god anytime

[Bluefinger]

I love and fully trust in god........but I love my child a lot more than god.....as my child is not an item of - blind faith' she is real and in the flesh...I hold hard evidence of her and I am fully responsible for her.................God on the other hand, I am not responsible for.. nor do I have to worry about him 24/7..... round that all up.. it shows I have more love for my child and would place her over any god anytime

And I don't blame you for that. I wasn't trying to put pressure on you. I was simply clearing confusion about me and many Christians who live for God.

[Bluefinger]

But you have to understand that I do not love God! I do not even fully understand what exactly you mean when saying "God". People are great in their diversity, some love God, and some may love beer, greyhound races or collecting stamps. And in their diversity they see God differently, yours is just one case of 6 billion, as you are one of 6 billion God's images. if all become like you (or me) then this God would lose the perfection, he would be just a factory-grown chicken with a standard weight. It is good you found something to love, some hobby, but it does not mean all other would share this your hobby.

And I don't expect them to. God is also not a hobby to me and I am by no means perfect. God would never lose his perfection over me because He lives in a perfect state of existence and has capabilities I can never possess. Please don't fee like I'm pressuring you. I'm not. I'm trying to clear confusion about how people see Christianity. I've noticed that the media only publishes stories in which men are doing evil and despicable things in Christ's name, but they never show the Christians that represent Christ well.

[Beckys_Mom]

And I don't blame you for that. I wasn't trying to put pressure on you. I was simply clearing confusion about me and many Christians who live for God.

Oh I know you were not using any pressure... I was just adding my opinion on god how I feel

With no disrespect intended..please don't think this is but - I feel if people only live their lives for god and thats it.. then there isnt much in life they seem to love to live for...? if that sounds ok.. but having god in my life is good and wonderful yes... but I have so much more to live for.. well IMO that's how I view it

[MARAB0D]

And I don't expect them to. God is also not a hobby to me and I am by no means perfect. God would never lose his perfection over me because He lives in a perfect state of existence and has capabilities I can never possess. Please don't fee like I'm pressuring you. I'm not. I'm trying to clear confusion about how people see Christianity. I've noticed that the media only publishes stories in which men are doing evil and despicable things in Christ's name, but they never show the Christians that represent Christ well.

I gave you the example - how do you feel about stamps collecting? If you do not collect them yourself, you do not feel anyhow about it! Just some strange dudes getting mad because of little pieces of dirty paper... But each of these strange dudes would be talking to you with zeal and enthusiasm, trying to place in you a spark of interest to this bizarre way to spend or invest money. Pretty much like that it is with Christianity - non-Christians think about it only when they face some Christians, not in any other time, unless they are generally interested with history of religions. You should not anyhow feel insulted because your views are not shared, at least by myself, it is pretty normal. You also do not want to share a lot of things with me, say the knowledge of Chemistry. To each his own!

[Karlis]

The following paragraphs are from the article in the OP:

Only 2 percent of U.S. adults are atheists, the Trinity study found. Still, by another estimate I saw, that's three times the percentage of avowed atheists 20 years ago.

Atheists remain a tiny minority, but they're far more vocal and combative than they used to be, an approach advocated by Dawkins and others. They have every right to state their views.

The irony is that this current brand of aggressive atheism is just another form of fundamentalism. These particular atheists are zealots on the subject of faith who see no shadings of gray, only black and white. They're dead-set against religion but weirdly obsessed with it.

My guess is that the author is not far from the facts in his last paragraph quoted here, when he wrote, "The irony is that this current brand of aggressive atheism is just another form of fundamentalism. These particular atheists are zealots on the subject of faith who see no shadings of gray, only black and white. They're dead-set against religion but weirdly obsessed with it."

Just a thought. Others may differ in their views,

Karlis