Hyksos, Habiru, and the Hebrews

[kmt_sesh]

Exhibit D: The “Yakov” (Jacob) Royal Ring. Jacobovici contends that Joseph’s royal seal was discovered at Tell el-Daba, the site of the ancient Hyksos capital Avaris. This is also the location of Rameses, the place where the Israelites settled (Gn 47:11) and where they departed from (Ex 12:37). In the 13th century BC, long after the Israelites had left, Rameses II rebuilt the city and named it after himself. It is this later, better-known, name that is used in the Bible since the earlier names of the site (there were several) went out of use. The Austrian team excavating the site found nine scarabs (beetle-shaped amulets) bearing the name of a Hyksos called Jacob-Her dating to ca. 1700 BC. Jacobovici, of course, surmises that this is Joseph’s father Jacob. He further contends that these are “seals worn by Joseph’s court officials.” If the scarabs are connected to the high official Joseph, then why is Jacob’s name on them? Jacobovici does not explain. In reality, Jacob was a common Semitic name and in this case probably belonged to a prominent Hyksos leader or businessman. In addition to the nine examples at Tell el-Daba, three Jacob-Her scarabs were found in Israel: two at Kabri, near Nahariya, and one at Shiqmona, near Haifa (Bietak 1997: 115).

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2006/09/20/Debunking-The-Exodus-Decoded.aspx

I just noticed this post by Abramelin mentioning the "Jacob-Her" scarabs found by an Australian team. Nine scarabs, no less. In my previous post I stated that I was unaware of scarabs with this name having been found in Egypt. LOL I don't claim to know everything. All I can say is that in all of my own reading and research, I haven't come across the finding of these particular scarabs in the professional literature. I have to wonder about it, but when I have the time I'll dig deeper into it.

Thanks for linking us to that web page, Abramelin. On a personal note, I enjoyed it. I've discussed Jacobovici many times with people at UM (perhaps with you, too), and I like the facts the web page brings to the fore. Jacobovici's The Exodus Decoded was nothing less than exceedingly bad, to the point of comical, but it worries me when people take it as sound historical research. It most certainly was not. For the most part it was flashy eye candy built on weak speculation. I laughed through much of it--kind of like one of those hopelessly inept episodes of Ancient Aliens. Honestly, why is such rubbish even aired?

Yeah, I know, for the sake of pleasing the great deity known as RATINGS.

[cormac mac airt]

I just noticed this post by Abramelin mentioning the "Jacob-Her" scarabs found by an Australian team. Nine scarabs, no less. In my previous post I stated that I was unaware of scarabs with this name having been found in Egypt. LOL I don't claim to know everything. All I can say is that in all of my own reading and research, I haven't come across the finding of these particular scarabs in the professional literature. I have to wonder about it, but when I have the time I'll dig deeper into it.

Thanks for linking us to that web page, Abramelin. On a personal note, I enjoyed it. I've discussed Jacobovici many times with people at UM (perhaps with you, too), and I like the facts the web page brings to the fore. Jacobovici's The Exodus Decoded was nothing less than exceedingly bad, to the point of comical, but it worries me when people take it as sound historical research. It most certainly was not. For the most part it was flashy eye candy built on weak speculation. I laughed through much of it--kind of like one of those hopelessly inept episodes of Ancient Aliens. Honestly, why is such rubbish even aired?

Yeah, I know, for the sake of pleasing the great deity known as RATINGS.

Well, that and oft-times many will believe in most anything, particularly if it goes against what's actually known or sounds cool.

cormac

[Eldorado]

KMT,

Thank you sir.

I asked about the Jewish Virtual Library because I was suspicious it might have a slightly biased view of history, like most religious sources. I did like their explanation though.

"When the Egyptians reasserted dominance over Egypt at the start of the New Kingdom, they actively expelled as many foreigners as they could. Life got fairly harsh for these foreigners, who were called "habiru," which was applied to landless aliens (taken from the word, "apiru," or foreigner). Is this where the Hebrews got their name? It's a hotly contested issue."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/hebegypt.html

[Abramelin]

KMT,

Thank you sir.

I asked about the Jewish Virtual Library because I was suspicious it might have a slightly biased view of history, like most religious sources. I did like their explanation though.

"When the Egyptians reasserted dominance over Egypt at the start of the New Kingdom, they actively expelled as many foreigners as they could. Life got fairly harsh for these foreigners, who were called "habiru," which was applied to landless aliens (taken from the word, "apiru," or foreigner). Is this where the Hebrews got their name? It's a hotly contested issue."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/hebegypt.html

The Greeks called foreigners 'barbar', and the Egyptians called them 'apiru'. Is there a linguistic connection between these 2 words, or is it just a coincidence that they are somewhat similar?

The Hebrews were a conglomerate of wandering tribes, and all were foreigners to the Egyptians.

Well, I think what you suggested sounds reasonable.

.

Edited July 9, 2010 by Abramelin

[SlimJim22]

Link on the habiru as a non ethnic wandering group but in Bharata (India) they were a warrior caste, the sons of Ophir.

Carol Redmount who wrote 'Bitter Lives: Israel in and out of Egypt' in "The Oxford History of the Biblical World" concluded that the term "Habiru" had no common ethnic affiliations, that they spoke no common language, and that they normally led a marginal and sometimes lawless existence on the fringes of settled society. [ibid., p.98] She defines the various Apiru/Habiru as "a loosely defined, inferior social class composed of shifting and shifty population elements without secure ties to settled communities" who are referred to "as outlaws, mercenaries, and slaves" in ancient texts. [ibid., p.98]

http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/263646

More connections with India, sorry if I posted this one already.

http://anirudhgautum.mywebdunia.com/2007/12/24/the_great_india_empire.html

Same for this one. Focussing primarily on the work of Shukla.

http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/connections/Hebrews-and-Vedic-Brahmins.php

Excellent read on the Hyskos.

http://www.imninalu.net/Hyksos.htm

What do you make of the following link? It is more indepth on the Chaldeans or Kasdim than anything I hve previously read. I have posted it already but thought it was worth mentioning again as it seemed so goo and I want opinions on its credibility please. Cheers.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17323/17323-h/v3a.htm

Edited July 9, 2010 by SlimJim22

[danielost]

you guys may or may not be pushing things to hard. but it is possible for two different groups that have no contact to come up with words that sound alike and might even be spelt the same. since for one thing the arabic characters didnt exist at that time. the isrealites had a written language. the sumarians and egyptians didnt.

an example of sound alike words is the chinese name li and the erupian name lee. if these words had come out before the letters we use to spell them did, could they not have been spelt the same way afterwards.

[Eldorado]

you guys may or may not be pushing things to hard. but it is possible for two different groups that have no contact to come up with words that sound alike and might even be spelt the same. since for one thing the arabic characters didnt exist at that time. the isrealites had a written language. the sumarians and egyptians didnt.

an example of sound alike words is the chinese name li and the erupian name lee. if these words had come out before the letters we use to spell them did, could they not have been spelt the same way afterwards.

Lee is more like a sound than a name, imo.

doh ray me fah soh....lol

Edited July 9, 2010 by Eldorado

[danielost]

Lee is more like a sound than a name, imo. lol

tell that to somene with that name.

oh i dont know like daniel lee osterloh.

oh wait you just did.

[kmt_sesh]

KMT,

Thank you sir.

I asked about the Jewish Virtual Library because I was suspicious it might have a slightly biased view of history, like most religious sources. I did like their explanation though.

You're welcome, Eldorado.

The JVL is a useful source. Yes, it has an obvious bias and some outdated conclusions, but this is far from saying the JVL is worthless. It certainly isn't. I personally like some of the articles on the Hebrew language, such as this and this one. The website is definitely worth exploring.

"When the Egyptians reasserted dominance over Egypt at the start of the New Kingdom, they actively expelled as many foreigners as they could. Life got fairly harsh for these foreigners, who were called "habiru," which was applied to landless aliens (taken from the word, "apiru," or foreigner). Is this where the Hebrews got their name? It's a hotly contested issue."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/hebegypt.html

I agree that things weren't pretty for foreigners at the dawn of Dynasty 18, especially if those foreigners happened to have come from Palestine--whether or not they had anything to do with the Hyksos. It must not have been too great for Nubians, either, considering the Hyksos had tried to strike an alliance with them. But it must be understood that the Habiru (prw in ancient Egyptian, from which we get the modern rendering of Apiru) were not resident in Egypt, at least not in numbers worth noting. Sources like the Amarna Letters reveal that by the middle of Dynasty 18, the Habiru were a constant nuisance to the principalities of the Levant. Rulers of Canaanite polities were appealing to Akhenaten to aid them in controlling the Habiru, to which Akhenaten usually turned a deaf ear. This was still before the Hebrews existed.

The word "Habiru" is not Egyptian but Akkadian. It was not used in the Egyptian language to describe foreigners. In transcriptions of the Amarna Letters, the Egyptians simply preserved "Habiru" as prw. In the ancient Egyptian language there were a number of words for "foreigner," including r-pDtyw, SmAw, xAstyw, and pDt (Shenum 1977: 60). Sometimes the word would be particular to the region from which the foreigner had come. The generic word xAst meant "foreign land" and formed part of the word HKA-xAswt ("foreign rulers"), which came down to us from the Greek language as Hyksos.

But the word "Habiru" was not Egyptian and was not one of the words they used to describe foreigners. The Habiru were a Levantine and Mesopotamian phenomenon.

[danielost]

You're welcome, Eldorado.

The JVL is a useful source. Yes, it has an obvious bias and some outdated conclusions, but this is far from saying the JVL is worthless. It certainly isn't. I personally like some of the articles on the Hebrew language, such as this and this one. The website is definitely worth exploring.

I agree that things weren't pretty for foreigners at the dawn of Dynasty 18, especially if those foreigners happened to have come from Palestine--whether or not they had anything to do with the Hyksos. It must not have been too great for Nubians, either, considering the Hyksos had tried to strike an alliance with them. But it must be understood that the Habiru (prw in ancient Egyptian, from which we get the modern rendering of Apiru) were not resident in Egypt, at least not in numbers worth noting. Sources like the Amarna Letters reveal that by the middle of Dynasty 18, the Habiru were a constant nuisance to the principalities of the Levant. Rulers of Canaanite polities were appealing to Akhenaten to aid them in controlling the Habiru, to which Akhenaten usually turned a deaf ear. This was still before the Hebrews existed.

The word "Habiru" is not Egyptian but Akkadian. It was not used in the Egyptian language to describe foreigners. In transcriptions of the Amarna Letters, the Egyptians simply preserved "Habiru" as prw. In the ancient Egyptian language there were a number of words for "foreigner," including r-pDtyw, SmAw, xAstyw, and pDt (Shenum 1977: 60). Sometimes the word would be particular to the region from which the foreigner had come. The generic word xAst meant "foreign land" and formed part of the word HKA-xAswt ("foreign rulers"), which came down to us from the Greek language as Hyksos.

But the word "Habiru" was not Egyptian and was not one of the words they used to describe foreigners. The Habiru were a Levantine and Mesopotamian phenomenon.

you know a herder is not rich unless he has someplace to sell his herds to. like egypt and babylon.

so perhaps that is what abraham and isaac did. jacob's family was to big to move back and force but he would still need to move from well to well to keep his herd watered and fed. so by the time of jacob the merchants were coming to him rather than him going to them. which is why when that famine hit it hit his family so hard and they moved to egypt to survive.

and maybe the egytians combined the two parts of the names from babylon and egypt to come up with he brew.

i am using babylon because i cant spell the bigger name of the area..

Edited July 10, 2010 by danielost

[kmt_sesh]

you guys may or may not be pushing things to hard. but it is possible for two different groups that have no contact to come up with words that sound alike and might even be spelt the same. since for one thing the arabic characters didnt exist at that time. the isrealites had a written language. the sumarians and egyptians didnt.

Goodness, are you sure about that? If memory serves me, the Sumerians developed the first written script in the world (c. 3300 BCE). You've heard of cuneiform, haven't you? The Egyptian weren't far behind (c. 3200 BCE) with hieroglyphs and hieratic; and by 650 BCE the Egyptians had developed another script, called demotic. Make no mistake, these were fully developed written scripts.

Perhaps you mean "alphabet," in which case you would be closer to the truth. Neither Sumerian nor Egyptian scripts employed an alphabet as we would think of the term, although we often refer to Egyptian monoliterals as an alphabet (technically it is not, and there's no evidence the Egyptians thought of monoliterals as such).

However, the Hebrew script also did not contain an alphabet. Technically an alphabet represents all of the basic sounds in a language, and this would generally include vowels. As explained here, Hebrew as originally written contained no vowels. A system later developed whereby vowel sounds could be written, which is how Hebrew is written today, but originally the script represented only consonants and weak consonants (similar to ancient Egyptian scripts, whereas Sumerian and Akkadian and similar cuneiforms represented syllables of consonant-plus-vowel).

The first to come close to a true alphabet were the Phoenicians with their script, but it was also consonantal. The first true alphabet, representing both consonants and vowels in a limited number of characters, was Greek.

[kmt_sesh]

...

i am using babylon because i cant spell the bigger name of the area..

Google 'em! That's what I often do.

If you think some of the place names are a bear, try some of the names of Hittite kings like Urhiteshub and Suppiluliuma. They're even tough to pronounce. And then there are those crazy Chaldeans like Nebuchadnezzar. To me the names of Egyptian kings are easy to spell as well as to pronounce. But if you want to pronounce them properly, first carefully practice the ones that contain harsh gutturals like Khasekhemwy, Sanakhte, Khufu, and Tutankhamun. If you're not careful, you'll be spraying all over the people you're talking to!

[danielost]

Goodness, are you sure about that? If memory serves me, the Sumerians developed the first written script in the world (c. 3300 BCE). You've heard of cuneiform, haven't you? The Egyptian weren't far behind (c. 3200 BCE) with hieroglyphs and hieratic; and by 650 BCE the Egyptians had developed another script, called demotic. Make no mistake, these were fully developed written scripts.

Perhaps you mean "alphabet," in which case you would be closer to the truth. Neither Sumerian nor Egyptian scripts employed an alphabet as we would think of the term, although we often refer to Egyptian monoliterals as an alphabet (technically it is not, and there's no evidence the Egyptians thought of monoliterals as such).

However, the Hebrew script also did not contain an alphabet. Technically an alphabet represents all of the basic sounds in a language, and this would generally include vowels. As explained here, Hebrew as originally written contained no vowels. A system later developed whereby vowel sounds could be written, which is how Hebrew is written today, but originally the script represented only consonants and weak consonants (similar to ancient Egyptian scripts, whereas Sumerian and Akkadian and similar cuneiforms represented syllables of consonant-plus-vowel).

The first to come close to a true alphabet were the Phoenicians with their script, but it was also consonantal. The first true alphabet, representing both consonants and vowels in a limited number of characters, was Greek.

alphabet or not, there are languages that contain sounds that most humans can neither say or hear. of course i only know of one, a native people in canada.

letters are limited in character because they dont convey all the sounds we can make and hear, like the spanish rr although i am unable to say that one correctly.

[SlimJim22]

Thought this was interesting.

Many scholars (Knorozov, Parpola, Mahadevan, etc) see this sign as a fish. Fish in reconstructed Proto-Dravidian is *mîn. Coincidentally, *mîn is also the word for star. On many pots from Mohenjo Daro, an Indus site, there are drawings of fish and stars together, and so affirming this linguistic association.

Going further, often the numeral six appears before the fish. Either it means 6 fish, or 6 stars. Old Tamil (a Dravidian language still spoken today) texts from just around the 1st century AD recorded the name of the Pleiades, a star cluster visible during autumn and winter just above Orion, as "Six-Stars", or aru-mîn. Throughout the world, titles with celestial connotations are very common, and the clause Six Stars forming part or whole of a Harappan title is not unreasonable. (Parpola, 1986)

http://www.ancientscripts.com/indus.html

It seems the Elamites (one group of proto hebrews) had a pictographic script connected to the Indus script of the Harappan culture. This may suggest a common ancestry for both in the Dravidian culture.

http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/aid/vedicharrapans.html

22 letters in hebrew alphabet correspond with the 22 branches of the tree of life and the Harappan script.

http://www.factsbehindfaith.com/default.aspx?intContentID=36

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet

I'm still working on it but there may be a connection between the Ugaritic script and Sanskrit. Amazing that Sanskrit has 51 letters or Ashkaras.

http://www.ancientscripts.com/alphabet.html

There is huge debate whether sanskrit came into India with the aryan invasion as PIE or if it started in the Indus valler and spread as far afield as Anatolia and even the Balkans.

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/general/sanskrit.asp

Hebrew (עִבְרִית, Ivrit, Hebrew pronunciation (help·info)) is a Semitic language of the Afro-Asiatic language family. Culturally, it is considered the Jewish language. Hebrew in its modern form is spoken by most of the seven million people in Israel while Classical Hebrew has been used for prayer or study in Jewish communities around the world for over two thousand years. It is one of the official languages of Israel, along with Arabic. Ancient Hebrew is also the liturgical tongue of the Samaritans, while modern Hebrew or Palestinian Arabic is their vernacular, though today about 700 Samaritans remain. As a foreign language it is studied mostly by Jews and students of Judaism and Israel, archaeologists and linguists specializing in the Middle East and its civilizations, by theologians, and in Christian seminaries.

The core of the Torah (the Hebrew Bible) is written in Classical Hebrew, and much of its present form is specifically the dialect of Biblical Hebrew that scholars believe flourished around the 6th century BCE, around the time of the Babylonian exile. For this reason, Hebrew has been referred to by Jews as Leshon HaKodesh (לשון הקודש), "The Holy Language", since ancient times.

The modern word "Hebrew" is derived from the word "ivri" (plural "ivrim") one of several names for the Jewish people. It is traditionally understood to be an adjective based on the name of Abraham's ancestor, Eber mentioned in Genesis 10:21. This name is possibly based upon the root "`avar" (עבר) meaning "to cross over" and homiletical interpretations of the term "ivrim" link it to this verb. In the Bible "Hebrew" is called Yehudith (יהודית) because Judah (Yehuda) was the surviving kingdom at the time of the quotation, late 8th century BCE (Is 36, 2 Kings 18). In Isaiah 19:18, it is also called the "Language of Canaan" (שְׂפַת כְּנַעַן)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language

avar, ivrim and yahuda are all words found in sanskrit. I find the link to hebrew or habiru more likely than not.

From a link I posted yesterday on the Hyskos I learnt about the outposts they had reaching down towards Nubia and I was reading about the different technologies that came into Egypt from Cannaan. It's all really interesting but obviously my thinking is that the migrating peoples from the Saraswati basin moved into Asia Minor and via the persians eventually became aligned or an influence upon the hebrews. Of course there may have been a far more ancient link between parts of Africa and Mesopatamia with the cultures of India. The Elamites would seem to be the best proof of this right now. Sorry if this seems a bit all over the place. There is reason to assume there would have been trade from the east and I am wondering if the Phoencians were operating in the Indian ocean aswell as the Med, their base most likely being Erythrea.

[danielost]

the one thing that bothers me is that after sariah died. abraham got remarried and had 12 more kids, what happened to them.

[SlimJim22]

the one thing that bothers me is that after sariah died. abraham got remarried and had 12 more kids, what happened to them.

6 six with Keturah and 12 sons plus Mahalath descending from Ishmael. What is your understanding of the meaning of Ishmael?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham's_family_tree

Did Abraham and Ishmael build the Kaaba as islam claims? What is the blackstone all about? Wasn't their something similar on Cyprus devoted to Aphrodite, the closest we to Apiru imo? Read that apiru may refer to non-israelite hebrews, dunno.

Can't find much on Keturah. Wiki seems to think it may be the line of Midianites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keturah

There are many groups that may be akin to the descendants of Abraham but there is so much info out there. Maybe Elamites or Ammorites, maybe Hurrians. I do not know but tradition says that the sons of Ishmael occupied Arabia as far as India and obviously we have the twelve tribes based around the area of the Tigris-Euphrates.

[danielost]

6 six with Keturah and 12 sons plus Mahalath descending from Ishmael. What is your understanding of the meaning of Ishmael?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham's_family_tree

Did Abraham and Ishmael build the Kaaba as islam claims? What is the blackstone all about? Wasn't their something similar on Cyprus devoted to Aphrodite, the closest we to Apiru imo? Read that apiru may refer to non-israelite hebrews, dunno.

Can't find much on Keturah. Wiki seems to think it may be the line of Midianites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keturah

There are many groups that may be akin to the descendants of Abraham but there is so much info out there. Maybe Elamites or Ammorites, maybe Hurrians. I do not know but tradition says that the sons of Ishmael occupied Arabia as far as India and obviously we have the twelve tribes based around the area of the Tigris-Euphrates.

supposedly the black rock is where abraham was going to sacrifice isaac. why this would be important to the arabs i dont know.

i think ishmeal means man made. since it was abrahams will not gods will.

Edited July 10, 2010 by danielost

[SlimJim22]

When the Amarna letters were translated, some scholars equated these Apiru with the Biblical Hebrews (Hebrew: עברים or עבריים, ʿIvrim, ʿIvriyyim). Besides the similarity of their spellings, the description of the Apiru attacking cities in Canaan seems to fit the Biblical account of the conquest of that land by Israelites under Joshua.

The photographs from the 1904 Breasted Expedition to Egypt, especially those of the battle of Kadesh incribed at Abu Simbel provide one of the first recorded mentions of the ha ibr u[7] in the context of an army that messengers rushed to fetch to the battle.

Scholarly opinion remains divided on this issue. Some scholars argue that the Hapiru were a component of the later peoples who inhabited the kingdoms ruled by Saul, David, Solomon and their successors in Judah and Israel. Rainey argues that Hapiru is a generic term for bandits, not attached to a specific population. He proposes that, in the Amarna letters, Hebrews are referred as Shasu.[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habiru

There are just so many conflicting theories on the net it can become very confusing unless the rigours of academia are properly followed. Hence in conclusion I must agree with Kmt's assertions. They do all seem to be mildly distinct but with a lot in common also. I stick by most of what I have said up to this point but my thoughts are inconclusive and decent evidence outside of what I have already posted is hard to come by. I do think there is a deeper meaning just out of reach as far as proof is concerned so enough is enough.

Reposting a really worthwhile link for all who missed it.

http://www.imninalu.net/Hyksos.htm

Alternative timeline

http://neros.lordbalto.com/ChapterFive.htm

[kmt_sesh]

...

It seems the Elamites (one group of proto hebrews) had a pictographic script connected to the Indus script of the Harappan culture. This may suggest a common ancestry for both in the Dravidian culture.

...

The Elamites were not proto-Hebrews, nor did they have anything to do with the Hebrews. They were ethnically and linguistically completely unrelated. It is possible the Elamites were of distant Indian descent, but they were already a well-established and thriving culture in southwest Iran at the same time the proto-historical cultures of southern Mesopotamia were coalescing into the people we call Sumerian. And as with the Sumerians, the language spoken by the Elamites remains poorly understood and its scripts largely undeciphered.

Further, I don't see any relation between any of the earliest stages of Elamite scripts and the Indus Valley script. Yes, some characters bear similarities, but that doesn't mean anything. Were it this easy, then we could say that Egyptian hieroglyphs, early Sumerian cuneiform, Elamite, Indus Valley, Minoan hieroglyphs, Luwian, Meroitic, Aztec, Mayan, and other writing systems from around the world must all bear connections because some of their characters look kind of similar. That would be unrealistic, of course.

The nature of the Indus Valley script is still hotly debated. It is even more obscure and poorly understood than the earliest Elamite writing. Archaeology magazine recently had a very interesting article on the Indus Valley script. All attempts to make sense of it have failed, and many scholars don't believe it was a true written language in the first place. That's entirely possible.

Lately you're trying to make a lot of connections between cultures of India and the Hebrews. I just don't see this as possible. The origins of the Hebrews are not all that mysterious. They were definitely Western Semitic in ethnicity and language and, almost certainly, rose from among their Canaanite kin along the Levantine coast in the collapse of the Bronze Age. I don't see any identifiable connections with the peoples of India.

[SlimJim22]

The Elamites were not proto-Hebrews, nor did they have anything to do with the Hebrews. They were ethnically and linguistically completely unrelated. It is possible the Elamites were of distant Indian descent, but they were already a well-established and thriving culture in southwest Iran at the same time the proto-historical cultures of southern Mesopotamia were coalescing into the people we call Sumerian. And as with the Sumerians, the language spoken by the Elamites remains poorly understood and its scripts largely undeciphered.

Further, I don't see any relation between any of the earliest stages of Elamite scripts and the Indus Valley script. Yes, some characters bear similarities, but that doesn't mean anything. Were it this easy, then we could say that Egyptian hieroglyphs, early Sumerian cuneiform, Elamite, Indus Valley, Minoan hieroglyphs, Luwian, Meroitic, Aztec, Mayan, and other writing systems from around the world must all bear connections because some of their characters look kind of similar. That would be unrealistic, of course.

The nature of the Indus Valley script is still hotly debated. It is even more obscure and poorly understood than the earliest Elamite writing. Archaeology magazine recently had a very interesting article on the Indus Valley script. All attempts to make sense of it have failed, and many scholars don't believe it was a true written language in the first place. That's entirely possible.

Lately you're trying to make a lot of connections between cultures of India and the Hebrews. I just don't see this as possible. The origins of the Hebrews are not all that mysterious. They were definitely Western Semitic in ethnicity and language and, almost certainly, rose from among their Canaanite kin along the Levantine coast in the collapse of the Bronze Age. I don't see any identifiable connections with the peoples of India.

Yes, due to the Saraswati river flowing near to Mesopatamia I see this as a convenient means of contact between people of the Indus with those of Sumer, Akkad and Elam. Could be much of east African coast had contact also. There is a some debate over the years into this area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elamo-Dravidian_languages

I understand it is hard to believe that there was contact so far a field but I don't find it that surprising if it were true, I'm not saying it was but considering how fertile the Indus valley was and how rich in gemstones, gold and incense it makes sense that there was a lot of trade. Maybe as far as Egypt even. I am not saying hebrews were not western semitic just that the picture is extrememly complex and that people of Cannaan may not have been too disimilar from the Dravidians or Harappans. They were not the same for sure but they may have shared ethnic or cultural traits .

http://pragati.nationalinterest.in/2010/03/the-indus-colony-in-mesopotamia/

I have already conceded that from an archeological perspective there is not enough to support my line of thinking but from a spiritual perspective I have reason to think that the Indus valley civilzation had a much stronger powerbase than is accepted and had colonies of some kind in Mesopatamia. Abram probbaly being one in a line before him that rose to prominence due to the political setting of the time.

Have you been checking my links Kmt, I understand they are a bit much sometimes but some have stood out as being really good I thought. The one on the Hyskos and one on the Chaldeans. I can take solace in thinking there are many in the world who see the same connections as me but I respect your opinion greatly so will try and refrain from going over the same ground in future. I'll give it a rest for a while but thanks for this thread as it has helped me to learn a lot even if I don't agree with all I am learning.

[Eldorado]

tell that to somene with that name.

oh i dont know like daniel lee osterloh.

oh wait you just did.

Apologies, my friend.

So tell me, please...what does the Oriental name "Lee" mean?

Your name as above looks like it's the "meadow" variety of Lee. (lea) imo

Edited July 11, 2010 by Eldorado

[danielost]

Apologies, my friend.

So tell me, please...what does the Oriental name "Lee" mean?

Your name as above looks like it's the "meadow" variety of Lee. (lea) imo

got it backward lee is eurapean.

li is a last name i dont know what it means.

i wasnt offended just pretended

[Habiru-Hebrew speaker]

Hello

I wanted to note few things :

that the word that appears in the "Merneptah victory stela, dating to around 1207 BCE".

Is "Israel" (i.si.ri.ar/al),which is the first evidence we have today,to use that name.

In addition, as a Hebrew speaker I can contribute the following information:

in Biblical Hebrew language ,as the transmission of the language of those days, we can find few Manifestations & lightting information regarding that topic -

The 2 similar words -"ever" & "ivri"(hebrew/hebrew man:

The word "Hebrew" pronouce in hebrew as - "ivri". (hebrew & roots :in Hebrew there is one root for evry word and every root is usually three letters contains & on every single root meny diferent words are installed,so 1 root creatting some related words), the root of the 2 words pronounce as "ivri"(=hebrew man)& "ever"(= a side ,a bank,a part of ,an organ) is same root (the root -"ע.ב.ר" or - E'.V/b . r ).

the word "ivri" means also just simply gramerly the meaning of : someone who is like "ever" ,on of the ever's if we can say,or also-one of he's sones <(1. "ever"=ever ,2. ivr+I/y =of ever )same like in english stupid & stupidity, Bird & Birdy. Or in Hebrew. "tanach"(bible)& "tanachi"(Biblical),or "ever" (ever) & "ivri"(some on of ever/one of hes sones,estr..) > its

Interestingly to see the gynulogy chain described Abraham's ancestors fathers (Genesis chapt-11-) the appearance (the seventh behind him) the character of "ever" (Genesis chapt-11,vrs nom-16 ) .so may of course it's possible that he is an ancient father of he's sons -"ivrim"(the Hebrews )so is true to say at least in Hebrew grammar.also the next one ,the sone of "ever"(side,bank..)he's name was "peleg"', which means in Hebrew : a branch ,a link,a split. So it's like something important happened in that point of the gynology, a new "link",branch was created.in the bible most of names have a clear language (hebrew) relation/meaning

That is possible that "ever" was an ancestor father of the Hebrews ,that Abraham w

Edited July 13, 2010 by Habiru-Hebrew speaker

[SlimJim22]

Hello

I wanted to note few things :

that the word that appears in the "Merneptah victory stela, dating to around 1207 BCE".

Is "Israel" (i.si.ri.ar/al),which is the first evidence we have today,to use that name.

In addition, as a Hebrew speaker I can contribute the following information:

in Biblical Hebrew language ,as the transmission of the language of those days, we can find few Manifestations & lightting information regarding that topic -

The 2 similar words -"ever" & "ivri"(hebrew/hebrew man:

The word "Hebrew" pronouce in hebrew as - "ivri". (hebrew & roots :in Hebrew there is one root for evry word and every root is usually three letters contains & on every single root meny diferent words are installed,so 1 root creatting some related words), the root of the 2 words pronounce as "ivri"(=hebrew man)& "ever"(= a side ,a bank,a part of ,an organ) is same root (the root -"ע.ב.ר" or - E'.V/b . r ).

the word "ivri" means also just simply gramerly the meaning of : someone who is like "ever" ,on of the ever's if we can say,or also-one of he's sones <(1. "ever"=ever ,2. ivr+I/y =of ever )same like in english stupid & stupidity, Bird & Birdy. Or in Hebrew. "tanach"(bible)& "tanachi"(Biblical),or "ever" (ever) & "ivri"(some on of ever/one of hes sones,estr..) > its

Interestingly to see the gynulogy chain described Abraham's ancestors fathers (Genesis chapt-11-) the appearance (the seventh behind him) the character of "ever" (Genesis chapt-11,vrs nom-16 ) .so may of course it's possible that he is an ancient father of he's sons -"ivrim"(the Hebrews )so is true to say at least in Hebrew grammar.also the next one ,the sone of "ever"(side,bank..)he's name was "peleg"', which means in Hebrew : a branch ,a link,a split. So it's like something important happened in that point of the gynology, a new "link",branch was created.in the bible most of names have a clear language (hebrew) relation/meaning

That is possible that "ever" was an ancestor father of the Hebrews ,that Abraham w

So, Shem is described as "the father of all of the children of Eber". This seems like a bit of a strange statement. I agree with what you have said and am interested in your opinion on potential connections with the Abhiras of India and Avaris of the Hyksos. Also, as to Ophir being located in India.

Also, of interest I find some of the other descendants of Shem. Elam of the Elamites seems to be important as to the make up of ethnic populations in Mesopatamia but the name Arphacsad seems slightly out of place to me. Can you provide meanings for any other names that could be realted to explain how the descendants of Noah may have made up populations of the region?

This is also quite interesting, any thoughts?

http://www.spiritandtruthministries.org/Spirit%20and%20Truth%20Ministries/Nations%20Bible%20Prophecy/Shem%20and%20Descendants.html

[Habiru-Hebrew speaker]

hello slimjim

fierst let me pleaze coerct that, the pronaunciation acording to hebrew bible is -Ever- end not -eber-.

second, i didnt understand some of yr questions . u were saying : "So, Shem is described as "the father of all of the children of Eber" were this is tacking from ?

2-." I agree with what you have said and am interested in your opinion on potential connections with the Abhiras of India and Avaris of the Hyksos". i didnt meant to the abihiras of india but to the avidental name of a people in mesopothemya call afiru or abiru

"shem" is considering as the father of all semical (shemim in hebrew) people (today mostly arabs & jews , in past- all nations of mesopotemya,egypt ,the anciant middle east people-phenicians end str..

shem in hebrew means : name

also its means in religious expretion : the name of god or just -God .

shem hade meny sones end they hade meny sones,- shem was1of them(grandson of shem ).

thats all i can relate to the hebrew language help about the name of -shem- .

slimjim can u plz help me ? : i didnt understand - when i was searching the forum of -habiru hyxos..- the search gave me only this - my massage from last time end your replay . my questiones:

1-how can i get to the forum, like i did b4 ?

2- is it posible i opened a new forum section without knowing ? does otheres can see our replies ? thanks end good day/nigt