where did the "sumerians" come from?

[cormac mac airt]

How's about a connection with an Austric group based on the coast of the Indus valley and south east Asia, possibly Sundaland related?

Again, Jaylemurph would probably be a better choice in the 'language' department, but by definition "Austro-Asiatic" deals with the EASTERN Indian sub-continent and Southeast Asia. Therefore, leaving out any relevance to central, southern or western India and not even remotely relevant to a discussion of Dravidians or the IVC, IMO. Not even apples and oranges, more like a comparison of apples and grapes.

cormac

[cormac mac airt]

Because that is is what I read online, that the Sumerians fled their country when it got frozen all over.

And you found this in what specifically Sumerian text?

cormac

[Abramelin]

And you found this in what specifically Sumerian text?

cormac

That is my problem: I remember I read it somewhere, and then SlimJim posted about the Barton Tablets, but that got me nothing at all.

So I can't tell you what Sumerian text I am talking about. I can only tell you that I once read it online.

But I realize, that is not the answer you asked for.

Mea Culpa.

[SlimJim22]

Again, Jaylemurph would probably be a better choice in the 'language' department, but by definition "Austro-Asiatic" deals with the EASTERN Indian sub-continent and Southeast Asia. Therefore, leaving out any relevance to central, southern or western India and not even remotely relevant to a discussion of Dravidians or the IVC, IMO. Not even apples and oranges, more like a comparison of apples and grapes.

cormac

Apples and grapes are closer that apples and oranges. If you ferment them long enough they'll get you trashed. What d'ya get if ya ferment oranges?

I like apples and grapes and Dravidians and Austroasians, maybe they got along to but I will need a lot more to go on than that. Still it hasn't stopped me trying before albeit in vain.

[cormac mac airt]

Apples and grapes are closer that apples and oranges. If you ferment them long enough they'll get you trashed. What d'ya get if ya ferment oranges?

I like apples and grapes and Dravidians and Austroasians, maybe they got along to but I will need a lot more to go on than that. Still it hasn't stopped me trying before albeit in vain.

So you're the reason Abramelin's drunk alot, eh? Damn Welshmen will do anything to slide an idea by.

cormac

[The_Spartan]

Our ethnic affinity with the Sumerians is may be questionable but the Sumerian-Hungarian etymological connection regarding the two languages is by all means valid. Here are some very interesting references:

..............

My link

I hope it wasn't so much boring ...

From the very Wikipedia Link

* For many years (from 1869), it was a matter of dispute whether Hungarian was a Finno-Ugric/Uralic language, or was more closely related to the Turkic languages, a controversy known as the "Ugric-Turkish war", or whether indeed both the Uralic and the Turkic families formed part of a superfamily of "Ural-Altaic languages". Hungarians did absorb some Turkic influences during several centuries of co-habitation. For example, it appears that the Hungarians learned animal breeding techniques from the Turkic Chuvash, as a high proportion of words specific to agriculture and livestock are of Chuvash origin. There was also a strong Chuvash influence in burial customs. Furthermore, all Ugric languages, not just Hungarian, have Turkic loanwords related to horse riding. Nonetheless, the science of linguistics shows that the basic wordstock and morphological patterns of the Hungarian language are solidly based on a Uralic heritage.[citation needed]

* A fringe theory that is well-known is that the Hungarian language is a descendant of Sumerian. Some nationalist linguists and historians (like Ida Bobula, Ferenc Badiny Jós, dr Tibor Baráth and others) have published this theory.[20] There are some artifacts which they claim support this view (like the Tartaria tablets). Mainstream linguists reject the Sumerian theory as pseudoscience.

* Hungarian has often been claimed to be related to Hunnish, since Hungarian legends and histories show close ties between the two peoples; also, the name Hunor is preserved in legends and (along with a few Hunnic-origin names, such as Attila) is still used as a given name in Hungary. Many people share the belief that the Székelys, a Hungarian ethnic group living in Romania, are descended from the Huns. However, the link with Hunnish has no linguistic foundation since most linguists consider the Hunnic language to be part of the Turkic language family.

There have been attempts, dismissed by mainstream linguists, to show that Hungarian is related to other languages including Hebrew, Egyptian, Etruscan, Basque, Persian, Pelasgian, Greek, Chinese, Sanskrit, English, Tibetan, Magar, Quechua, Armenian, Japanese and at least 42 other Asian, European and even American languages.[21]

[The_Spartan]

The origin of Sumerians..is a topic thats bothering me now. I have contacted archaeologists/anthropologists over the net to see if they could provide some sorts of answers.

When i was searching "Origin of Sumer" i cam across one of the most hilarious translations. Its by Edo Nyland, some of you might have heard of him.

His page is Orign of Sumerian

His theories are summarised by actual faculty labelling them contrevorsial..at Summary of Nyland's Theories/Hypothesis

His translations or attempt at pseudo-translation is so funny..here is an example

The meaning of the name "Latin" is interesting because it tells us that everybody had to memorize the invented words, whether they liked it or not:

Latin, .la-ati-in.

.la - ati - in.

ela - ati - ino

ela - atxiki gogoz - inornahi

word - to memorize - everybody

"Everybody memorize the words."

Mozes

.mo - oze - es.

amo - oze - esa

amorrazio - ozen - esan

anger - penetrating voice - to express

"He expresses his anger in a penetrating voice."

The majority of Biblical names can be decoded by this method so let's take some simple names:

Genesis

.ge - ene - esi - is.

age - ene - esi - isa

ageri - ene - ezingehiagoko - izadi

revelation - my - supreme - creation

"Supreme revelation of creation."

Revelation

.re - ebe - ela - ati - on.

are - ebe - ela - ati - one

arrerosle - ebertar - ela - atxikimendu - oneste

redeemer - Hebrew - story - faithfulness - blessing

"Our Hebrew Redeemer's (Jesus's) story of faithfulness and blessing."

Sarah

.sa - ara - ah.

asa - ara - aha

asaba - arauzale - ahaidego

ancestor - lawful - kinship/tribe

"Lawful ancestor of the tribe."

Zion

.zi - on.

azi - one

azitoki - onetsi

place where I grew up - to bless

"Bless the place where I grew up."

Moab

.mo - ab.

umo - aba

umoretxar - abade

bad tempered - priest

"Bad tempered priest."

Bethlehem

.be - et. - .h. - .le _ he - em.

abe - eto - oha - ale _ he - emo

abelaska - etorberri - ohartzaile - alegera _ heben - emoi

manger - newborn - observer/wise man - rejoicing/glorifying _ here - gift

"The newborn is in the manger. The wise men are here glorifying with gifts."

Have some laughs.

Edited August 31, 2010 by The Spartan

[Harte]

Apples and grapes are closer that apples and oranges. If you ferment them long enough they'll get you trashed. What d'ya get if ya ferment oranges?

Trashed - with a fresh scent.

Harte

[Harte]

Spartan,

That was hilarious.

He must do his "research" here at U-M!

LOL

Harte

[jaylemurph]

Wow, Spartan. Mr Nyland (uhhh, I'm going out on a limb and assume it's "Mr" and not "Doctor" or "Professor") is at once hilarious and depressing. Kind of like Glenn Beck.

--Jaylemurph

[Harte]

The guy's obviously not being serious.

I think it's one of the best send-ups of the moronic brainlessness of the fringe I've ever seen.

At least, I'm gonna hold on to that take on it for my own mental health.

Harte

[TheSearcher]

I'd like to know what the guy is smoking...... to get the same......

That even makes less sense than the Hungarian-Sumerian connection.

[Leonardo]

The guy's obviously not being serious.

I think it's one of the best send-ups of the moronic brainlessness of the fringe I've ever seen.

At least, I'm gonna hold on to that take on it for my own mental health.

Harte

Sorry for the trauma this is going to cause, Harte, but Mr Nyland (R.I.P.) was very serious!

Here is another forum discussing this remarkable theory (I hope I'm allowed to post this link! ). Some of the comments are hilarious (with apologies to Jay for the various 'linguists' comments!)

Apologies for the OT, btw.

[Harte]

Thanks a lot Leo.

Now I can't hold on to the only thinking that could have kept my sanity from leaking out my ears!

Harte

[lightly]

ho elyowy hooleyo holeyoco oco wxow wocowowcow

holy cow

or... "bad tempered priest". You guys aren't getting this!?

[Harte]

lightly

Lig ht ly

Liga hot lay

Ligature hotmama fornicate

See where this leads us?

I dare say no more. TPTB would no doubt stop me.

Harte

[Qoais]

Kinda like the Name Game Song.

Shirley!

Shirley, Shirley bo Birley Bonana fanna fo Firley

Fee fy mo Mirley, Shirley!

Lincoln!

Lincoln, Lincoln bo Bincoln Bonana fanna fo Fincoln

Fee fy mo Mincoln, Lincoln!

Come on everybody!

I say now let's play a game

I betcha I can make a rhyme out of anybody's name

The first letter of the name, I treat it like it wasn't there

But a B or an F or an M will appear

And then I say bo add a B then I say the name and Bonana fanna and a fo

And then I say the name again with an F very plain

and a fee fy and a mo

And then I say the name again with an M this time

and there isn't any name that I can't rhyme

Arnold!

Arnold, Arnold bo Barnold Bonana fanna fo Farnold

Fee fy mo Marnold Arnold!

But if the first two letters are ever the same,

I drop them both and say the name like

Bob, Bob drop the B's Bo ob

For Fred, Fred drop the F's Fo red

For Mary, Mary drop the M's Mo ary

That's the only rule that is contrary.

Okay? Now say Bo: Bo

Now Tony with a B: Bony

Then Bonana fanna fo: bonana fanna fo

Then you say the name again with an F very plain: Fony

Then a fee fy and a mo: fee fy mo

Then you say the name again with an M this time: Mony

And there isn't any name that you can't rhyme

Every body do Tony!

Pretty good, let's do Billy!

Very good, let's do Marsha!

A little trick with Nick!

[The_Spartan]

Humor is good for the nerves.

Seriously ..there are folks who take Edo Nyland's theory "seriously"

Edited September 1, 2010 by The Spartan

[jimmylives]

Hungarian is not at all related to Sumerian. It's related to Finnish, Uralic and Ugric languages, from NW Russia and thereabouts. Not closely, mind.

I'd be interested to know from where you're sourcing your data. It certainly isn't from the Wiki link you provide. The only mention it gets there is where it's positively labelled as junk science.

I'm not even sure what your chart is purporting to show. From your context, it would seem to be relationships with Hungarian and Sumerian words, but I'm not sure that those are even Sumerian words -- I know others here are better able to say that than me, but I was given to understand that Sumerian words didn't end with voiceless stops, but this chart has several that end in /p/, /k/ and /t/. If I were a betting man (and I'm not), I'd say it was pretty good odds that this was lifted out of a book from the first few decades of the last century.

I'd also like to know what an etymon is, exactly.

--Jaylemurph

The translation of the original article is rather bad but maybe you can clarify yourself what I refered to: English version

As for etymons (root words) here is My link but you can find many more explanations for it on the net.

As you wrote the relation of Hungarian language to Finnish, Uralic etc. is well known. But Sumerian ethymological connection much earlier than the Finno-Ugric. The etymons prove this as well as the many etymons in the Finnish language because it's also a proto language.

[MissionAtlantis]

The only description we have of Atlantis comes from Plato. There is no other evidence for its existance whatseover - only conjection, supposition and wild imagination.

Without Plato we would not be having this discussion.

Plato described a bronze age society identical in technology to that of his own. The only reason to suppose the events he described occurred more than 10 years before we wrote them down is because of his 8,000 years comment. Artistic licence?

The Atlantean army was defeated by Athens. There is no reason to suppose Athens then vanished. Indeed, it seems quite clear that Plato meant the ancestors of the Athenians of his own time, implying the same city on the same place inhabited by the same people.

Back to other comments above ...

... there is a danger in trying to trace ancestory through language. In 100 years time all Japanese might speak English. Does that mean their ancestors came from America? Were Philippinos all of Spanish ancestry, only to be wiped out and replaced by English settlers? Languages change. The British spoke Gaelic, then Anglo Saxon, then French, then English - yet genetically the peoples speaking these languages were virtually unchanged. It may only take a change in trading patterns or the ruling class to lead to a complete change in written language and, in time, spoken language.

Essan, you bring up some very good points, here, though some of the conclusions are a bit flawed (logical fallacies).

I'm afraid the subject of Atlantis in such detail here should be on another thread, so one is provided at,

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=189492

[Piney]

The origin of Sumerians..is a topic thats bothering me now. I have contacted archaeologists/anthropologists over the net to see if they could provide some sorts of answers.

When i was searching "Origin of Sumer" i cam across one of the most hilarious translations. Its by Edo Nyland, some of you might have heard of him.

His page is Orign of Sumerian

His theories are summarised by actual faculty labelling them contrevorsial..at Summary of Nyland's Theories/Hypothesis

His translations or attempt at pseudo-translation is so funny..here is an example

Have some laughs.

Geezus! That is sooooo funny!!!!

Lapiche

[Ostanes]

The Chaldaeans came from Egypt.

Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History, 1st century B.C.

Now the Egyptians say that also after these events a great number of colonies were spread from Egypt over all the inhabited world. To Babylon, for instance, colonists were led by Belus, who was held to be the son of Poseidon and Libya; and after establishing himself on the Euphrates river he appointed priests, called Chaldaeans by the Babylonians, who were exempt from taxation and free from every kind of service to the state, as are the priests of Egypt; and they also make observations of the stars, following the example of the Egyptian priests, physicists, and astrologers. They say also that those who set forth with Danaus, likewise from Egypt, settled what is practically the oldest city in Greece, Argos, and that the nation of the Colchi in Pontus and that of the Jews, which lies between Arabia and Syria, were founded as colonies by certain emigrants from their country; and this is the reason why it is a long-established institution among these two peoples to circumcise their male children, the custom having been brought over from Egypt. Even the Athenians, they say, are colonists from Saïs in Egypt, and they undertake to offer proofs of such a relationship ....

... to us it seems not inappropriate to speak briefly of the Chaldaeans of Babylon and of their antiquity, that we may omit nothing which is worthy of record. Now the Chaldaeans, belonging as they do to the most ancient inhabitants of Babylonia, have about the same position among the divisions of the state as that occupied by the priests of Egypt; for being assigned to the service of the gods they spend their entire life in study, their greatest renown being in the field of astrology.

[The_Spartan]

The Chaldaeans came from Egypt.

Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History, 1st century B.C.

We are talking about the SUMERIANS!!!

[Ostanes]

We are talking about the SUMERIANS!!!

I think you'll have to ask God that question.

[jaylemurph]

I think you'll have to ask God that question.

That guy? He got banned ages ago...

--Jaylemurph