Plato's Atlantis -- Made Up or Based on Fact?

[booNyzarC]

It's not just my efforts, here, but the efforts of several other posters as well who attempt to get others to push back the curtains of willful ignorance and learn about actual human history. Our achievements over the last 200,000 years are nothing less than astounding and yet some wish to incorporate a fairytale amongst those achievements, likely because REAL history isn't exciting enough for them. If even one person learns something more than "I read it in a book, it sounds cool, so it must be true" than it's been worth it.

No. But the search for it has likely, and probably will for a time, eclipse the real history of many areas, sad to say.

The search for Atlantis, IMO, boils down to two things.

1) The need, by some, to attempt to understand ancient history without having to put much effort into the actual research to learn about it.

2) An attempt by those who don't understand science or the scientific methods used, and are therefore paranoid and doubtful of anything science has to say, to understand ancient history on their own terms.

As is evidenced by this and similar threads, there are those who will try to incorporate any and everything together they find in an attempt to "prove" Atlantis existed.

cormac

Thank you Cormac, once again. I blame myself for not being clear enough. I wasn't asking you these questions, I was asking others. But I do appreciate your response. I somewhat get the impression that I may be ignored by my target interviewees.

At this point, I'm specifically asking Puzz.

Do you truly think that your efforts will be fruitful? Do you think that Atlantis will be discovered? Or is this just an exercise in your imagination and an attempt to tie seemingly disconnected historical oddities into some kind of personal validation?

[kmt_sesh]

With all due respect... is the mystery of Atlantis something that any of you truly believe you will uncover with this discussion?

Of course not. As with any internet forum, nothing of academic, archaeological, or scientific merit will realistically result from this discussion. If someone genuinely believes otherwise, that person is seriously deluding himself or herself. As with all other UM debates, this is simply for the enjoyment of intellectual discourse. Many of us might have divergent backgrounds and approaches, not to mention beliefs, but that's what makes it lively.

In the end this is nothing more than the sharing of information and the ability of people to defend and substantiate their arguments.

Or is it more of an interest to examine the historical context of myths and legends out of simple curiosity and the enjoyable exercises of one's imagination?

That's a good way to describe it, too. And much more succinctly than I just did.

The problem with myths and legends is that they rarely reflect reality. To the ancient Greeks what we call myths were in fact an integral part of their religion--and most ancient Greeks were very pious, to be sure. But in the end their rich myths and legends do not reveal very much meaningful information at all about their factual history. Myths and history, by necessity, must be regarded as two separate entities. To try to mesh the two invariably leads one into problems with credible inquiry.

I truly appreciate the passion displayed herein, and I don't want to diminish that in any way. But I am also curious about the underlying intention of this lengthy and consistent debate, or more importantly, the end goal.

LOL Their needs to be a goal? Wow, you're demanding! In all honesty I don't think there's a goal, nor any set outcome of any kind that we ought to expect. As with all other threads, it will eventually die out and disappear into the dust bin of old discussions. And then at some distant future time someone will necropost and force it back to life...for a time. In the end it's just one more thread among countless about the story of Atlantis. It will bring us no closer to discovering the reality of Atlantis because there simply is no reality, beyond an obvious allegorical construct. And therein I've managed to throw in my own considered opinion again.

Each day that I participate in this forum I check in on this thread to see what is happening. Most of it is lost to me. It doesn't make sense to me. But that is alright, I'm not judging the discussions, I'm just stating my inability to understand. This is simply to further back up the root of my question.

Some of it doesn't make much sense to me, either. In my years at UM I've observed most threads veering off into chronically off-topic discussions, whatever the original topic may have been. This generally means, I believe, that people have grown bored with the original topic and don't mind veering off, just for the sake of discussing other things. I think we're a bit back on track right now, but give it time...soon enough someone will again bring up stuff completely unrelated to the original topic. It's inevitable.

Do you truly think that Atlantis will be discovered as a result of this?

Of course not. It's a certainty no such thing will occur. This is simply because no physical place called Atlantis ever existed. This is basic and obvious to people familiar with the ancient cultures and modern archaeology of the Mediterranean world, but many other people are not concerned with such things and prefer the fringe approach. And therein I've managed to throw in my own considered opinion again.

[kmt_sesh]

...

At this point, I'm specifically asking Puzz.

...

Sorry. In that case please disregard my previous post. I was just tossing in my two cents. We await Puzzler's response.

[booNyzarC]

Of course not. As with any internet forum, nothing of academic, archaeological, or scientific merit will realistically result from this discussion. If someone genuinely believes otherwise, that person is seriously deluding himself or herself. As with all other UM debates, this is simply for the enjoyment of intellectual discourse. Many of us might have divergent backgrounds and approaches, not to mention beliefs, but that's what makes it lively.

In the end this is nothing more than the sharing of information and the ability of people to defend and substantiate their arguments.

That's a good way to describe it, too. And much more succinctly than I just did.

The problem with myths and legends is that they rarely reflect reality. To the ancient Greeks what we call myths were in fact an integral part of their religion--and most ancient Greeks were very pious, to be sure. But in the end their rich myths and legends do not reveal very much meaningful information at all about their factual history. Myths and history, by necessity, must be regarded as two separate entities. To try to mesh the two invariably leads one into problems with credible inquiry.

LOL Their needs to be a goal? Wow, you're demanding! In all honesty I don't think there's a goal, nor any set outcome of any kind that we ought to expect. As with all other threads, it will eventually die out and disappear into the dust bin of old discussions. And then at some distant future time someone will necropost and force it back to life...for a time. In the end it's just one more thread among countless about the story of Atlantis. It will bring us no closer to discovering the reality of Atlantis because there simply is no reality, beyond an obvious allegorical construct. And therein I've managed to throw in my own considered opinion again.

Some of it doesn't make much sense to me, either. In my years at UM I've observed most threads veering off into chronically off-topic discussions, whatever the original topic may have been. This generally means, I believe, that people have grown bored with the original topic and don't mind veering off, just for the sake of discussing other things. I think we're a bit back on track right now, but give it time...soon enough someone will again bring up stuff completely unrelated to the original topic. It's inevitable.

Of course not. It's a certainty no such thing will occur. This is simply because no physical place called Atlantis ever existed. This is basic and obvious to people familiar with the ancient cultures and modern archaeology of the Mediterranean world, but many other people are not concerned with such things and prefer the fringe approach. And therein I've managed to throw in my own considered opinion again.

Thank you kmt_sesh, once again you have delivered a thoughtful and complete response to an honest set of questions. I truly appreciate it.

I do try to keep up with this discussion, but I find it difficult. That is likely due to a differing level of interest, but it could also be a lack of capacity on my part. I'm open to either possibility and would accept either explanation without contempt. At any rate, I really do appreciate your response. Carry on and enjoy!

[booNyzarC]

Sorry. In that case please disregard my previous post. I was just tossing in my two cents. We await Puzzler's response.

Oh stop, you silly old mummified genius! Of course I appreciated your response!

[The Puzzler]

With all due respect... is the mystery of Atlantis something that any of you truly believe you will uncover with this discussion?

Or is it more of an interest to examine the historical context of myths and legends out of simple curiosity and the enjoyable exercises of one's imagination?

I truly appreciate the passion displayed herein, and I don't want to diminish that in any way. But I am also curious about the underlying intention of this lengthy and consistent debate, or more importantly, the end goal.

Each day that I participate in this forum I check in on this thread to see what is happening. Most of it is lost to me. It doesn't make sense to me. But that is alright, I'm not judging the discussions, I'm just stating my inability to understand. This is simply to further back up the root of my question.

Do you truly think that Atlantis will be discovered as a result of this?

Probably not.

My own interest lies in exactly what Plato is telling us and how it fits into history as a True story as he says it is.

To me, it should lie in some basis of truth and be what the Egyptian priests said occurred.

How Plato got the information I'm not sure, he may have conceived the idea to have Critias speak it, without it actually coming to him in this way.

To me, it fits because the Egyptian priests do tell Herodotus Osiris lived 15,000 years ago, so in the time of the Gods, it could have been an event.

I think it fits the climate of the time and the changes that would have been going on. I don't think science can give us the answers all the time, if at all, the more you look, the more you realise how much science and scientific theories are being challenged. The dogma of Atlantis has stopped genuine researches and any that are found are often trivialised.

It seems to me that climate, all myths and the history as told by the priests of Egypt do fit with the story Plato has told us.

Now, whether that island or peninsula (nesos meaning both) was right at the mouth of the Straits of Heracles is the scientific obstacle hardest to get past imo.

But since the myths align with the idea of an isle where Hera came from and grew her golden apples in the western Ocean guarded by the daughters of Atlas and a dragon, it should be taken into consideration that this area was a reality in some time frame.

They can't even find a ship that disappears in the Bermuda Triangle with all the 21st century technology they have, I don't have much faith in them finding a landmass that sunk 10,000 years ago. The current of the Gulf Stream is very strong and creates all sorts of crazy undersea drag effects. As it comes around to Spain you can make landfall, as the Spanish sailors did when they travelled back and forth to the New World. It was they who first recorded it's existance.

The cultures of the Canary Islands imo exhibit the original theme to the Typhon myth and Teide, the volcanic peak on Teneriffe holds Magec inside it. The black wild dogs would be Cerberus, guarding the Underworld. Same as Anubis, he guards the underworld. Not the Guanches, but the original inhabitants who built the buildings...I believe the Guanches took on these next ideas from the original inhabitants...

(Note: The Roman author and military officer, Pliny the Elder, drawing upon the accounts of Juba II, king of Mauretania, stated that a Mauretanian expedition to the islands around 50 BC found the ruins of great buildings, but otherwise no population to speak of.[3] If this account is accurate, it may suggest that the Guanches were not the only inhabitants, or the first ones;or that the expedition simply did not explore the islands thoroughly.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanches

Probably all 3, caves were where everyone used to hide out, not to mention where most Gods were reared. Reading about the cave art in Europe reminded me how far into these cave systems they went, unreachable to most people and then created incredible artworks.

The original inhabitants of the island, guanches, used to worship dogs, mummified them and treated dogs generally as holy animals. In ancient times the island was well known for its people who worshipped dogs there, and when the Romans first visited the island they gave it the name: 'canaari', which means in Latin: "the ones who worship dogs", or "the ones with dogs". The ancient Greeks also knew about a people, living far to the west, who are the "dog-headed ones", who worship dogs on an island. Some theorize that the Canary Islands dog-worship and the ancient Egyptian cult of the dog-headed god, Anubis are closely connected, but there is no explanation as to which one was first, and how is it possible for those two distant areas to be in contact with each other.

In my opinion Mount Teide is actually the original Mount Atlas and the actual mountain that held up the Western sky.

The Guanches also believed that Echeyde (Teide) held up the sky.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teide

If you look closely you can see the word Echeyde actually pronounces like Echide or Echidne, the wife of Typhon.

Some of my reasons why I think it is based in truth and what I am looking for in my own personal journey.

[The Puzzler]

Slim:

Titan etymology -

titan

early 15c., from L. Titan, from Gk. Titan, member of a mythological race of giants who attempted to scale heaven by piling Mount Pelion on Mount Ossa but were overthrown by Zeus and the gods. They descended from Titan, elder brother of Kronos. Perhaps from tito "sun, day," which is probably a loan-word from a language of Asia Minor. Sense of "person or thing of enormous size" first recorded 1828. Applied to planet Saturn's largest satellite in 1868; it was discovered 1655 by Du. astronomer Christiaan Huygens, who named it Saturni Luna "moon of Saturn."

Now, you mentioned the white clay, or gypsum, if we imagine Dionysus being born of a mountain, as in the thigh of Meru, and Meru could be Atlas, Dionysus is a part of Atlas...

The Titans decide to slay the child and claim the throne for themselves; they paint their faces white with gypsum, distract Dionysus with toys, then dismember him and boil and roast his limbs. Zeus, enraged, slays the Titans with his thunderbolt; Athena preserves the heart in a gypsum doll, out of which a new Dionysus is made. This story is told by the poets Callimachus and Nonnus, who call this Dionysus "Zagreus", and in a number of Orphic texts, which do not.

As odd as it might sound, to me, the above descriptions sounds like a volcanic eruption, white with gypsum, like volcanic ash, dismember him, the mountain breaks apart, he boils and roasts, in the heat from the volcano, Athena preserves his heart - a rebirth if you like.

So, I think the word titans in relation to white clay, gypsum might be meaning they were created from the volcanic ash.

I was just thinking, imagine if in ancient times you came across a scene like Pompeii after Vesuvius, what would you see, white clay people...

They are the plaster casts but the outer cases would have looked similar, maybe more undefined...

Right off that, I thought then about the large men of the Celtic nations who washed their hair in limewater and were often covered in white powders...?

The stretchers, who stretched out their power outrageously seems to be an early interpretation by Hesiod. Seems the bigger forces of nature and ourselves possibly.

This looks really interesting to fit into everything, the CAUSE:

According to Hyginus, the cause of titanomachy is as follows - "After Hera saw that Epaphus, born of a concubine, ruled such a great kingdom (Egypt), she saw to it that he should be killed while hunting, and encouraged the Titans to drive Zeus from the kingdom and restore it to Saturn. When they tried to mount heaven, Zeus with the help of Athena, Apollo, and Artemis, cast them headlong into Tartarus. On Atlas, who had been their leader, he put the vault of the sky; even now he is said to hold up the sky on his shoulders."

So, we have Epaphus, a son of Io, when she flees Greece for Egypt (the Argive line), Io must have been a concubine...Hera wanted him killed and the Kingdom restored to Saturn, hmm. thinking thinking...

The cult of Epaphus must have usurped the cult of Saturn, of which Hera was a supporter. Atlas was the leader - a Saturn follower too, so the whole thing was really an attempt to take down the new cattle cult of a Greek-Egyptian following and restate Saturn (Cronus) by order of Hera which didn't work so the Epaphus cult (Apis) must have flourished then in Egypt.

Epaphus can be placed in the same timeframe as Phaethon. He is only one generation after Phoroneus, who we are told is the oldest man known to the Greeks.

Epaphus is regarded in the myths as the founder of Memphis, Egypt. With his wife, Memphis (or according to others, Cassiopeia), he had one daughter, Libya. Another of his daughters bore the name of Lysianassa.[1]

Epaphus also criticized Phaëton's heraldry, which prompted him to undertake his fateful journey in his father Phoebus' chariot of the sun. Belus, another mythological king of Egypt, is a grandson of Epaphus

You can find the Argive genealogy here too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epaphus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragnarok

The Ragnorok may be telling of a time when an event comes around that happened before, a cycle. As Plato is telling us. Not sure about anything there really but will follow it all through some more.

I'm hesitant to ignore that Saami-Berber link. I believe the saami are one of the most ancient shaman there is and may even be responsible for some of the cave art in Europe c. 20,000-10,000 years ago. Yes. Reindeer once lived in Spain before 10,000BC...until they retreated to the North as the Saami did I say, not until they had spread into North Africa though. It is these people I say started all this. For whatever reasons, the people of Lapland became extremely spiritual and in tune with their land, maybe because they never became out of tune with it, they wear their best clothes to kill a bear and make all sorts of fuss after the event, honouring the bear and making sure it is treated in respect to the Gods wants. The power of the hallucinogenic you already know about, these shamans are the masters. Imo, they are probably some early kind of Magi. The banging drums and other crazy acts of the followers of Dionysus seem to point to a shamanic following too.

Just to add to that, it seems probably another climate change event at 6500BC affected the whole of the Med area and even East Africa. Etna erupts, Mt Meru erupts, Israel floods.

PPS: I thought I could see the word heat in Phaeton, (especially when I pronounced it with the 2 little dots above the e)and it is a myth known by the Celts so says Hermes, so here it is...

Heat: The verb is from O.E. hætan, from P.Gmc.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=heat

Exactly where I expected to find it, in proto-Germanic.

Edited September 26, 2010 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Thought of you again Slim...

This is a run down of what was going on in the Upper Paleolithic from 40,000BC to 10,000BC and is generally regarded as what was going on in Europe, whereas in Africa they refer usually to it as Stone Age.

-------------------------

40,00030,000 BC

40,00035,000 BC: Cro Magnon appear in Europe, early cultural center in the Swabian Alb, earliest figurative art (Venus of Schelklingen), beginning Aurignacian

35,000 BC: Zar, Yataghyeri, Damjili and Taghlar caves in Azerbaijan.

c. 32,000 BC: Europeans understand how to harden clay figures by firing them in an oven at high temperatures.

30,000 BC: Reinvention of the bow and arrow.[6]

c. 30,000 BC: end of the Mousterian Pluvial in North Africa

c. 30,000 BC26,000 BC: Lion-Human, from Hohlenstein-Stadel, Germany created. It is now in Ulmer Museum, Ulm, Germany.

[edit] 30,00020,000 BC

29,00025,000 BC: Venus of Dolní Věstonice. It is the oldest known ceramic in the world. The Red Lady of Paviland lived around 29-26,000 years ago. Recent evidence has come to light that he was a tribal chief.[citation needed]

c. 28,000 BC: People start to live in Japan.

25,000 BC17,000 BC: Wall painting with horses, rhinoceroses and aurochs, Chauvet Cave, Vallon-Pont-d'Arc, Ardéche gorge, France, is made. Discovered in December 1994.

c. 24,000 BC: start of the second Mousterian Pluvial in North Africa.

c. 23,000 BC: Venus of Petřkovice (Petřkovická venue in Czech) from Petřkovice in Ostrava, Czech Republic, was made. It is now in Archeological Institute, Brno.

c. 22,000 BC: Neanderthals believed to have become extinct in Europe.

c. 22,000 BC: Last Glacial Maximum: Venus of Brassempouy, Grotte du Pape, Brassempouy, Landes, France, was made. It is now at Musee des Antiquites Nationales, St.-Germain-en-Laye.

c. 22,000 BC21,000 BC: Venus of Willendorf, Austria, was made. It is now at Naturhistorisches Museum, Vienna.

c. 20,000 BC: end of the second Mousterian Pluvial in North Africa.

[edit] 20,00015,000 BC

Lascaux, it is in UNESCO World Heritage Sites.

Paleo-İndian life in Museum of Florida History.c. 18,000 BC15,000 BC: Last Glacial Maximum. Mean Sea Levels are believed to be 110 to 120 meters (361 to 394 ft) lower than present,[7] with the direct implication that many coastal and lower riverine valley archaeological sites of interest are today under water.

c. 18,000 BC: Spotted Horses, Pech Merle cave, Dordogne, France are painted. Discovered in December 1994.

c. 18,000 BC11,000 BC: Ibex-headed spear thrower, from Le Mas d'Azil, Ariege, France, is made. It is now at Musee de la Prehistoire, Le Mas d'Azil.

c. 18,000 BC12,000 BC: Mammoth-bone village in Mezhirich, Ukraine is inhabited.

c. 17,000 BC: Spotted human hands, Pech Merle cave, Dordogne, France are painted. Discovered in December 1994.

c. 17,000 BC15,000 BC: Hall of Bulls, Lascaux caves, is painted. Discovered in 1940. Closed to the public in 1963.

c. 17,000 BC15,000 BC: Bird-Headed man with bison and Rhinoceros, Lascaux caves, is painted.

c. 17,000 BC15,000 BC: Lamp with ibex design, from La Mouthe cave, Dordogne, France, is made. It is now at Musee des Antiquites Nationales, St.-Germain-en-Laye.

c. 16,500 BC: Paintings in Cosquer cave, where the cave mouth is now under water at Cap Margiou, France were made.

c. 15,000 BC: Bison, Le Tuc d'Audoubert, Ariege, France.

[edit] 16,00012,000 BC

c. 15,000 BC-13,000 BC: Paleo-Indians move across North America, then southward through Central America.

c. 15,000 BC-12,000 BC: Pregnant woman and deer (?), from Laugerie-Basse, France was made. It is now at Musee des Antiquites Nationales, St.-Germain-en-Laye.

c. 14,000 BC: Paleo-Indians searched for big game near what is now the Hovenweep National Monument.

c. 14,000 BC: Bison, on the ceiling of a cave at Altamira, Spain, is painted. Discovered in 1879. Accepted as authentic in 1902.

c. 14,000 BC: Domestication of Reindeer.[8]

13,000 BC: Beginning of the Holocene extinction event.

13,000 BC: earliest evidence of warfare

[edit] 12,00011,000 BC

11,500 BC10,000 BC: Wooden buildings in South America (Chile), first pottery vessels (Japan).

11,000 BC: First evidence of human settlement in Argentina.

11,000 BC: The Arlington Springs Man dies on the island of Santa Rosa, off the coast of California.

11,000 BC: Human remains deposited in caves which are now located off the coast of Yucatán

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It almost seems that a following of a Mother Goddess by the Cro-Magnons gave them an Upper hand over the Neanderthals, maybe. Could it be the general law of the Earth as in respecting the Mother and then passing over to nature and then carrying through to a general spiritual nature with the Earth..?

There is quite a bit going on and what I realised after reading some of the book I have called Prehistoric Heritage is that Europe was full of activity, and down to the takeover by the Romans we know very, very little. Stonehenge is really a mystery, who was living in the areas now the North Sea and Baltic Sea, that filled up? We have a lion-man carving from 26,000BC min.. even before they find a Venus, so men were seeing themselves as animistic from really long ago. Shamanism..? My book talks about the shamans painting some of the images in the caves and I pointed out once before how it may be possible that a bird on a stick is actually a constellation. Shamans, Magi?, recording the times, recording the spirits and the way it was and became, men who DID know the stars from 20,000 years ago. Who knows hey? But to me, it's of the highest interest.

Then we have these warming periods, climate changes, ice melts, floodings, land changes...

This is great info on the time called the Boreal, it's between the big ice melt of 10,000BC, so it's warming up, up to 7 degrees in 50 years, and then a cold snap hits again. The cold snap is the younger dryas.

------------------------------------------

The generally accepted date for the end of the Younger Dryas and the start of the Pre-Boreal is 11,500 Before Present calibrated. The start of the period is relatively sharply defined by a rise of 7 °C in 50 years. The date is based fairly solidly on Greenland ice cores, which give 11,640 BP for the late Younger Dryas and 11,400 BP for the early Pre-Boreal.

Before the Pre-Boreal, Eurasia was locked in the chill of the Younger Dryas and was a mostly continuous tundra belt, with regions of taiga, covered with a blanket of grasses, shrubs and other low plants typical of open land. Large numbers of herbivores wandered in herds over vast distances. The blanket teemed with small, rapidly reproducing species, which supported food chains of larger predators. The largest predators and humans hunted the mammals of the open tundra.

The Pre-Boreal began with a sudden rise in temperature that abruptly changed this ecosystem. Forest replaced the open lands in Europe, and forest-dwelling animals spread from southern refugia and replaced the ice-age tundra mammals; new climax ecosystems developed. The old fauna persisted in Central Asia, but were soon hunted out, as they were not replenished by the larger areas formerly nourishing the ecosystem.

The sea brought additional isolation by rising rapidly and drowning the entire coast. Ireland was cut off early in the Boreal, suffering an impoverishment of species. It is home to only two-thirds of the species present in Britain. Britain was cut off by the end of the Boreal. Forest had closed over the former European tundra.

Humans had to adapt to the encroaching forest or move east with the large mammals. Those who stayed became hunter-gatherers of the forests and fishers of the numerous bays, inlets and shallow waters around the thousands of islands that now spangled the seas of Europe. They lived richly and were encouraged to enter the pre-productive phase that we call the Mesolithic. Those who moved east hunted out the last of wild big game and turned their best efforts into learning to herd what was left.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boreal_(period)

------------------------------------------------

Many of the animals that we hear about in the myths may have existed even, in some form. What's kinda interesting too is that the Oak took hold in the warmer conditions and it created darker, denser forest that not many animals lived in as there was no undergrowth, so the changes in climate also changed the structure of the landscape's ecology.

I'll point this one out: c. 14,000 BC: Bison, on the ceiling of a cave at Altamira, Spain, is painted. Discovered in 1879. Accepted as authentic in 1902.

The book said how it was long UNaccepted by the scientific societies of the day that 'cave men' could have created these works (I'll add also that some jerk did create a hoax on a couple of items which did not help the case at all) and at some Lisbon convention it was basically pushed under the carpet, rejected and seen as a joke, indeed. 23 years later after finding many more cave art creations all dating to these time periods, it had to be accepted, grudgingly, I'm sure, to those in the circles.

In one of the caves the findings are credited to the 4 year old daughter of the owner of the land, when she looked up at the ceiling of the cave and cried out "Look Papa, Bulls!"

Could this be why we have not recognised what was going on in Europe...time will tell.

Edited September 26, 2010 by The Puzzler

[booNyzarC]

Probably not.

My own interest lies in exactly what Plato is telling us and how it fits into history as a True story as he says it is.

To me, it should lie in some basis of truth and be what the Egyptian priests said occurred.

How Plato got the information I'm not sure, he may have conceived the idea to have Critias speak it, without it actually coming to him in this way.

To me, it fits because the Egyptian priests do tell Herodotus Osiris lived 15,000 years ago, so in the time of the Gods, it could have been an event.

I think it fits the climate of the time and the changes that would have been going on. I don't think science can give us the answers all the time, if at all, the more you look, the more you realise how much science and scientific theories are being challenged. The dogma of Atlantis has stopped genuine researches and any that are found are often trivialised.

It seems to me that climate, all myths and the history as told by the priests of Egypt do fit with the story Plato has told us.

Now, whether that island or peninsula (nesos meaning both) was right at the mouth of the Straits of Heracles is the scientific obstacle hardest to get past imo.

But since the myths align with the idea of an isle where Hera came from and grew her golden apples in the western Ocean guarded by the daughters of Atlas and a dragon, it should be taken into consideration that this area was a reality in some time frame.

They can't even find a ship that disappears in the Bermuda Triangle with all the 21st century technology they have, I don't have much faith in them finding a landmass that sunk 10,000 years ago. The current of the Gulf Stream is very strong and creates all sorts of crazy undersea drag effects. As it comes around to Spain you can make landfall, as the Spanish sailors did when they travelled back and forth to the New World. It was they who first recorded it's existance.

The cultures of the Canary Islands imo exhibit the original theme to the Typhon myth and Teide, the volcanic peak on Teneriffe holds Magec inside it. The black wild dogs would be Cerberus, guarding the Underworld. Same as Anubis, he guards the underworld. Not the Guanches, but the original inhabitants who built the buildings...I believe the Guanches took on these next ideas from the original inhabitants...

(Note: The Roman author and military officer, Pliny the Elder, drawing upon the accounts of Juba II, king of Mauretania, stated that a Mauretanian expedition to the islands around 50 BC found the ruins of great buildings, but otherwise no population to speak of.[3] If this account is accurate, it may suggest that the Guanches were not the only inhabitants, or the first ones;or that the expedition simply did not explore the islands thoroughly.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanches

Probably all 3, caves were where everyone used to hide out, not to mention where most Gods were reared. Reading about the cave art in Europe reminded me how far into these cave systems they went, unreachable to most people and then created incredible artworks.

The original inhabitants of the island, guanches, used to worship dogs, mummified them and treated dogs generally as holy animals. In ancient times the island was well known for its people who worshipped dogs there, and when the Romans first visited the island they gave it the name: 'canaari', which means in Latin: "the ones who worship dogs", or "the ones with dogs". The ancient Greeks also knew about a people, living far to the west, who are the "dog-headed ones", who worship dogs on an island. Some theorize that the Canary Islands dog-worship and the ancient Egyptian cult of the dog-headed god, Anubis are closely connected, but there is no explanation as to which one was first, and how is it possible for those two distant areas to be in contact with each other.

In my opinion Mount Teide is actually the original Mount Atlas and the actual mountain that held up the Western sky.

The Guanches also believed that Echeyde (Teide) held up the sky.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teide

If you look closely you can see the word Echeyde actually pronounces like Echide or Echidne, the wife of Typhon.

Some of my reasons why I think it is based in truth and what I am looking for in my own personal journey.

Thank you for clarifying Puzz. I can see a deep passion in your journey with this and I don't want to detract from that in any way, I just wasn't sure about the intended end goal. I believe that you've answered that for me and I deeply appreciate your taking the time to do so. Cheers

[The Puzzler]

Ibero-Maurusian industry, also called Oranian Industry, North African stone-tool industry dating from the late Würm (last) Glacial Period, about 16,000 years ago. The former presumption that the industry extended into Spain explains the prefix “Ibero-” in the name. The industry does bear a close resemblance to the late Magdalenian culture in Spain, which is broadly contemporary (c. 15,000 bc). Subsequent study, however, suggests that the Ibero-Maurusian industry is derived from a Nile River valley culture known as Halfan, which dates from about 17,000 bc. Human remains are rather frequently associated with Ibero-Maurusian artifacts, and it appears that the industry belonged to a group of people known as the Mechta-el-Arbi race, considered to have been a North African branch of Cro-Magnon man.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/280608/Ibero-Maurusian-industry

The Halfan were mentioned by me before as being with the Qadan people, who had the sickles. So, this people caught my attention, also called the Oranian Industry, I'm always looking for Ouranians, that is early Olympians. Funny, these people who came from the Nile Valley into Western and Northern Africa were of the same race as the Guanches (Mechta) and seem to have been a people who originally came in from Europe as Cro-Magnon man...

Interesting...

[SlimJim22]

Ibero-Maurusian industry, also called Oranian Industry, North African stone-tool industry dating from the late Würm (last) Glacial Period, about 16,000 years ago. The former presumption that the industry extended into Spain explains the prefix “Ibero-” in the name. The industry does bear a close resemblance to the late Magdalenian culture in Spain, which is broadly contemporary (c. 15,000 bc). Subsequent study, however, suggests that the Ibero-Maurusian industry is derived from a Nile River valley culture known as Halfan, which dates from about 17,000 bc. Human remains are rather frequently associated with Ibero-Maurusian artifacts, and it appears that the industry belonged to a group of people known as the Mechta-el-Arbi race, considered to have been a North African branch of Cro-Magnon man.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/280608/Ibero-Maurusian-industry

The Halfan were mentioned by me before as being with the Qadan people, who had the sickles. So, this people caught my attention, also called the Oranian Industry, I'm always looking for Ouranians, that is early Olympians. Funny, these people who came from the Nile Valley into Western and Northern Africa were of the same race as the Guanches (Mechta) and seem to have been a people who originally came in from Europe as Cro-Magnon man...

Interesting...

...Very. The IM industry could relate Atlantis through the now sunken archipelago, I forget the name Spartan Island or something but that as a crossing point opens up a lot of territory. It is hard to imagine a common culture across such a region but one that takes what it needs to grow could have steadily extended itself north into Spain and also through Sinai

Anybody have access to sciendirect

On another level that I may have mentioned in passing before is the importance of commonalities between afro-asiatic religion as well as language. Take for example Ancient Egypt, contact with Sumer is not proven but with an Ugarit people it is far more likely. Them being cannanites like the phoenicians. Both the Ugarit and Egyptian pantheon include Thoth or Tautos and yet Thoth was originally a Nubian deity. Is Atlantis a possible allegory for the gradual declination of the afro-asiatics in favour of the indo-europeans in the Mediterrean region. Just a thought but the Sanchuniaton, that Plato could well have had access to does lend some support.

Copias and his wife Baau (translated as Nyx 'Night') give birth to Aeon and Protogonus ("first-born"), who are mortal men; "and that when droughts occurred, they stretched out their hands to heaven towards the sun; for him alone (he says) they regarded as god the lord of heaven, calling him Beelsamen, which is in the Phoenician language 'lord of heaven,' and in Greek 'Zeus.'" (Eusebius, I, x) . A race of Titan-like mountain beings arose, "sons of surpassing size and stature, whose names were applied to the mountains which they occupied... and they got their names, he says, from their mothers, as the women in those days had free intercourse with any whom they met." Various descendants are listed, many of whom have allegorical names but are described in the quotations from Philo as mortals who first made particular discoveries or who established particular customs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanchuniathon

It seems like this was a signifiicant influence on hellenic cosmology and although not a reflection of Egypt's particularly the existence of Thoth in both does bare testament to common origins doesn't it? Wiki link is decent on this.

Hang on, Oranian industry? Is that intentionally made to look so much like Ouranos do you think? Wouldn't an Ouranian era be the very first followed by Cronos and the Titans and then Olympians. Maybe Cronos was the proto-indoeuropeans of the Med who were perhaps more similar to those living in the region at that time than the later indo-europeans of the Steppes. Following the demise of Cronos superiority is handed to Zeus. Probably being a deity from the mountains of Asia or Europe. Poseidon, a remnant of the afroasiatic/PIE fusion that may have occurred and Hades of the Underworld perhaps subsaharn Africa. I know I have mentioned stuff like this before but maybe a timeline would actually be a good idea to support this.

The dates I am thinking so far would put the flood more in the Black sea region but there is also Atlit Yam at that time and a lot of coastal areas could have been lost around Greece too.

From the Atlantis Hypothesis site I posted the mistranslations could mean that we are looking for a mighty foreign country rather than a massive island. The Pillars of Hercules could be a red herring to. Basically it means that we don't neccessarily have to be looking for an island. However, the topography that Plato describes should be quite unique. What is the closest to it if we don't look for an island? The Richtat Structure maybe? I can't remember much about it though so will have to check. It could also have been anywhere in the near east or North Africa though so that is quite a wide search area really. Somewhere close enough for the story to have passed into Anatolia and Egypt as they seem to be the strongest sources. Hope that all makes a little sense and I haven't ,ade too many hasy speculations. Remmeber this is about what stories and myths Plato could have come into contact with and then influenced his allegorical history filling what he could find with what he could imagine. Not necessarily a place with statues and orichalum though they are possibilities but more likely a seafaring culture that gave rise to other cultures.

It does make me laugh. When I came to this site I was really looking for evidence of an Atlantean war with the Rama empire of India. I never bought a sitchin book but read online and thought it would be a cool idea for a story. However, examing the real facts and trying to make a story out of that is far more interesting.

[kmt_sesh]

Oh stop, you silly old mummified genius! Of course I appreciated your response!

LOL Mummified genius? That's a new one for me. Rarely is the word "genius" attributed to me (you've caused me to blush!) although "mummified" might be more on the mark.

Again, however, I have to remind everyone that the photo in my avatar is not me! Really, it isn't. He looks much better than I.

[ThePitOfReason]

It is just a story like Little Red Riding Hood.

[Swede]

SJ - Re:" It does make me laugh. When I came to this site I was really looking for evidence of an Atlantean war with the Rama empire of India. I never bought a sitchin book but read online and thought it would be a cool idea for a story. However, examing the real facts and trying to make a story out of that is far more interesting".

Excellent. As many here have presented, the actual course of human history is quite the complex, dynamic, and fascinating topic. It hardly needs the fanciful embellishments that some would attempt to propose.

.

[The Puzzler]

...Very. The IM industry could relate Atlantis through the now sunken archipelago, I forget the name Spartan Island or something but that as a crossing point opens up a lot of territory. It is hard to imagine a common culture across such a region but one that takes what it needs to grow could have steadily extended itself north into Spain and also through Sinai

Anybody have access to sciendirect

On another level that I may have mentioned in passing before is the importance of commonalities between afro-asiatic religion as well as language. Take for example Ancient Egypt, contact with Sumer is not proven but with an Ugarit people it is far more likely. Them being cannanites like the phoenicians. Both the Ugarit and Egyptian pantheon include Thoth or Tautos and yet Thoth was originally a Nubian deity. Is Atlantis a possible allegory for the gradual declination of the afro-asiatics in favour of the indo-europeans in the Mediterrean region. Just a thought but the Sanchuniaton, that Plato could well have had access to does lend some support.

Copias and his wife Baau (translated as Nyx 'Night') give birth to Aeon and Protogonus ("first-born"), who are mortal men; "and that when droughts occurred, they stretched out their hands to heaven towards the sun; for him alone (he says) they regarded as god the lord of heaven, calling him Beelsamen, which is in the Phoenician language 'lord of heaven,' and in Greek 'Zeus.'" (Eusebius, I, x) . A race of Titan-like mountain beings arose, "sons of surpassing size and stature, whose names were applied to the mountains which they occupied... and they got their names, he says, from their mothers, as the women in those days had free intercourse with any whom they met." Various descendants are listed, many of whom have allegorical names but are described in the quotations from Philo as mortals who first made particular discoveries or who established particular customs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanchuniathon

It seems like this was a signifiicant influence on hellenic cosmology and although not a reflection of Egypt's particularly the existence of Thoth in both does bare testament to common origins doesn't it? Wiki link is decent on this.

Hang on, Oranian industry? Is that intentionally made to look so much like Ouranos do you think? Wouldn't an Ouranian era be the very first followed by Cronos and the Titans and then Olympians. Maybe Cronos was the proto-indoeuropeans of the Med who were perhaps more similar to those living in the region at that time than the later indo-europeans of the Steppes. Following the demise of Cronos superiority is handed to Zeus. Probably being a deity from the mountains of Asia or Europe. Poseidon, a remnant of the afroasiatic/PIE fusion that may have occurred and Hades of the Underworld perhaps subsaharn Africa. I know I have mentioned stuff like this before but maybe a timeline would actually be a good idea to support this.

The dates I am thinking so far would put the flood more in the Black sea region but there is also Atlit Yam at that time and a lot of coastal areas could have been lost around Greece too.

From the Atlantis Hypothesis site I posted the mistranslations could mean that we are looking for a mighty foreign country rather than a massive island. The Pillars of Hercules could be a red herring to. Basically it means that we don't neccessarily have to be looking for an island. However, the topography that Plato describes should be quite unique. What is the closest to it if we don't look for an island? The Richtat Structure maybe? I can't remember much about it though so will have to check. It could also have been anywhere in the near east or North Africa though so that is quite a wide search area really. Somewhere close enough for the story to have passed into Anatolia and Egypt as they seem to be the strongest sources. Hope that all makes a little sense and I haven't ,ade too many hasy speculations. Remmeber this is about what stories and myths Plato could have come into contact with and then influenced his allegorical history filling what he could find with what he could imagine. Not necessarily a place with statues and orichalum though they are possibilities but more likely a seafaring culture that gave rise to other cultures.

It does make me laugh. When I came to this site I was really looking for evidence of an Atlantean war with the Rama empire of India. I never bought a sitchin book but read online and thought it would be a cool idea for a story. However, examing the real facts and trying to make a story out of that is far more interesting.

I know what you mean.

The culture of the Nile people helped the Ibero-Maurusian culture thrive. The Ibero-Maurusian people were Mechtoids and no, this is not Transformers I know...lol (The Ibero-Maurusian people belonged to the Mechtoid anthropological type)

You mentioned the people who were just prior to them, the Aterians.

Guanches were also Mechtoids. It actually puts an immediate link to the Anubis thing, whereas the Wiki page made us think no contact was made so it was implausable that Anubis would have been anything to do with the dog worshipping Guanches, but this could be it.

The Ibero-Maurusian Industry, sounds pretty industrious to me.

What it seems we have is, Cro-Magnons in France and Spain have reached North Africa, meanwhile the tools and industry of the Halfan culture of the Nile has spread to these Cro-Magnon Mechtoids (Guanches), who utilise it fully, so becomes an Industry.

What this says to me is that the 2 cultures were in contact and in trade and the Cro-Magnon Mechtoid people of the I-M culture and Guanches branch and it was very probable at this early date that they exchanged ideas about Gods.

Oranians, I don't know where that name comes from to call the culture that but it's very eerie.

Homer refers to the Olympus Gods as that in The Iliad. Ouranians, it does come from Ouranos, the family of Ouranians

The Sanchoniathon interpretations are enough to bend anyone's mind... here's the full text which Wiki has strands of it in case you didn't see it, I have only roughly read it before, just did then, everything is hard to make anything much of. http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/af/af01.htm

One thing that did seem recognisable in it all was a reference to Poseidon and Beirut which is where he first seems to be on the Levant land area, a myth tells how Poseidon and Dionysus compete for the hand of the maiden Beroe (Beirut/Berytus), with Poseidon winning so S.'s work does agree with that, that Poseidon is in Beirut first.

After these things, Cronus gave the city of Byblus to the goddess Baaltis, which is Dione, and Berytus to Poseidon, and to the Caberi who were husbandmen and fishermen: and they consecrated the remains of Pontus at Berytus.

Here's a wonderful telling of the myth of Poseidon-Dionysus-Beroe, note how Dionysus is said to have come from Tyre, he really wants Beroe..

DIONYSOS LOVES: BEROE

LOCALE: Beruit, Phoinikia (West Asia)

"Near the Assyrian rock he [Eros god of love] united from fiery arrows on one string, to bring two wooers into like desire for the love of a maid [beroe], rivals for one bride, the vinegod [Dionysos] and the ruler of the sea [Poseidon] ... One came from the deep waters of the sea-neighbouring roadstead, and one left the land of Tyre, and among the mountains of Lebanon the two met in one place ... Then Eros came quickly up to the maiden [beroe] hard by, and struck both divinities with two arrows.

http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/DionysosLoves.html#Beroe

The Cabeiri are a definite part of this Phoenician based record of events. The Ouranians might be the Phoenician based Pantheon before it became Greek, the Phoenicians do play a large part in Greek history from earliest times.

By these was begotten Epigeus or Autochthon, whom they afterwards called Ouranus (Heaven);

Autochthon is a son of Poseidon in Atlantis.

Autochthon was the brother of Atlas in Atlantis.

Ouranus/Autochthon was father of Atlas according to S.

I'd have to read it a few times and try and work out whose who, always something new...

The Richat Structure, why not? I'm all for it being part of an archipeligo or peninsula, it's my favourite place for Atlantis, see my Atlantis in the Sahara Thread if you haven't for tonnes of info about it.

It seems to have been created electrically, just like a lathe would cut it out, as they say, an electrical force, maybe from the Saturn effects of 9000BC, maybe...? But it does fill the requirements for it, it is very circular, cut like a lathe (says Plato), round, natural, by a God, if they sections were filled with water it could look like a circular canalled dome, it is on a low hill too. It's in the area, when the Sahara was inhabited it must have been noticed and it's in Mauritania too, right smack in with those Mechtoid Ibero-Maurusians and their industry.

[The Puzzler]

After a site near Oran, I see.

[The Puzzler]

Paulo Riven has done the number crunching on the Richat Structure being the central rings of Atlantis.

https://sites.google.com/site/tribesofatlantis/Home/evanor-s-emporium

[The Puzzler]

I'm going to leave you all with this tonight...

-------------------------

We find that there is considerable evidence both from oceanography and geology for the former existence of a large mid-ocean Atlantic land mass. Plato placed Atlantis just west of the Straits of Gibraltar. If we follow his directions to the letter, we arrive in the area of the islands of the Azores, near the Mid-Atlantic Ridge. If these were once part of a much larger island—the 400,000 square miles Plato described Atlantis as once having been—then it would answer a long-standing enigma of what happened to the Atlantic Gulf Stream during the Ice Age. The Gulf Stream originates as a western current of warm water between West Africa and South America, enters the Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico, then leaves the east coast of North America as a warm easterly current, flowing to the Azores, and turns northward to travel to Britain and Norway. It is the heat carried by the Stream that gives northern Europe a much milder, more temperate climate than it normally would have for such latitudes. This is made apparent when we realize that London exists on the same latitude as the cold and barren plains of Labrador.

Now during the Ice Age, northern Europe was covered by a thick blanket of ice. Temperatures all over the world were generally cooler at that time, but the Gulf Stream should still have been warm enough to have prevented the glacial ice from covering at least Great Britain and portions of Scandinavia. As it was, the ice buried the location where London now it under a mile of ice, and the glaciers pushed as far south in central Europe as Berlin.

The only explanation is that during the Ice Age some barrier existed in the mid-Atlantic that prevented the Gulf Stream from reaching northern Europe, and that toward the end of the Ice Age this barrier was suddenly removed and the Stream established its present route. The proposed “barrier” would have been situated exactly where Plato placed Atlantis: An island of the size and location that Plato specified would have been more than sufficient to divert the path of the Gulf Stream. What is more, it is at precisely that time Plato said Atlantis sank—11,500 B.P.—that paleoclimatologists note dramatic changes took place in ocean temperatures and European weather patterns, in part caused by a change Gulf Stream route.

Many myths and legends the world over preserve a memory of Atlantis as having been Paradise, the home of the gods and heroes—the origin point from which many peoples either received the gift of civilization, or escaped when the land was lost. Plato tells us that the fertile plain of Atlantis grew all manners of foods and vegetation, having a temperate to tropical climate, sheltered by the mountains in the north from boreal winds. As we already noted, up until twelve thousand years ago, the Gulf Stream was blocked from reaching northern Europe by the presence of Atlantis where the Azores are today. Because of this, Atlantis received most of the Stream’s warmth and tempering effects on wind and plentiful rainfall, before it was diverted back toward the south. At the same time, cold ocean currents and icy winds descending from glacial-covered northern Europe were stopped by the towering Atlantean mountainsin the north of the island. Thus, Atlantis had an ideal, garden-like climate, at a time when most of Europe and North America were in the grip of the Ice Age.

During this era, judging from Plato’s description, the Atlantean people possessed a high civilization, commanding great wealth and power. In contrast, all the known prehistoric civilizations, both in the Old World and the New, were at this time either just beginning to acquire the rudiments of civilization, or at least had a civilization on a very simple level. In Plato’s record, we read that Athens was not more than a prehistoric wooden fortress, and the people of the Nile had yet to acquire the status of a grand culture it was later to become. To them, and the rest of the pre-emerging known civilizations, Atlantis—with its civilization fully evolved and its empire far-flung and expanding—would have appeared as an island of cultural wonder and ease. And it is the memory of just such a place, and its location in the area of the Atlantic, that is found in practically every mythology and religion.

Core samplings and observations made throughout the Atlantic—from the Azores and along the Mid-Atlantic Ridge to the Caribbean and on the continental shelves—support the existence of a former large oceanic island. In 1913, French geologist Pierre Termier analyzed lava particles taken from the sea bottom at a depth of two miles just north of the Azores. He discovered the particles to be tachylyte, a form of lava which is vitreous and not crystalline—which means it could only have solidified in air. Because the disintegration of such lava occurs within a relatively shor time, Termier dated the rock at 12-13,000 B.P.–10-11,000 B.C.E. He concluded: “The entire region north of the Azores and perhaps the very region of the Azores was very recently submerged, probably during the epoch which geologists call the Present.”

In 1924, an Eastern Cable Company repair ship was sent to a spot 800 miles north of the Cape of Good Hope in order to retrieve a broken cable between the Cape and St. Helena Island. When the grapnels were lowered, the found the broken cable at a depth of three-quarters of a mile. The mystery was, when the cable had been laid in 1899, the depth recorded at this point had been 2,700 fathoms, or just over three miles. What this means is that within just 25 years, the ocean bottom had risen almost two miles. This finding serves as an example of what tremendous forces are at work beneath the Atlantic Ocean floor, forces that can not only raise land relatively quickly, but could probably also sink land, like Atlantis of old.

Ten years later, in the summer of 1934, the Woods Hole Institute research ship, appropriately named Atlantis, took tow-dredgings from off the Georges Bank and Cape Cod, at depths of 8,000 feet. What the expedition discovered were fossil-bearing rocks from the late Tertiary period which showed they had been cut out by river action since that time. H. C. Stetson, commenting on this finding in the Bulletin of the Geological Survey of America, said: “A fall and rise of sea level of the order or magnitude which the evidence demands, coupled with the shortness of time within which it must have taken place, approaches catastrophic.”

Another oceanographic survey, performed in 1947-1948 by the Swedish Deep Sea Expedition aboard the Albatross, took core samplings from along the Mid-Atlantic Ridge. What amazed the researchers involved was that several cores, from a depth of two miles down, revealed the remains of fresh water diatoms or algae, below a layer of marine sediments. One core, taken from 8,000 feet, off the Sierra Leone Ridge 578 miles from the west coast of Africa, contained more than 60 species of diatoms all exclusively fresh water type.

Swedish pale botanist R. W. Kolbe regarded this sample as evidence of a strata laid down by fresh water, while his colleague, geologist Rene Malaise, concluded that the diatoms had lived in a fresh water lake once above water. Conservative researchers attempted to explain the presence of these diatoms as being the result of a “turbidity current” having carried the micro-life from the African coast and deposited them in their present position. As Kolbe pointed out, however: “If ever we should accept the faint possibility of a turbidity current flowing from the African coast and dumping its load of fresh water diatoms at a distance of 930 km from the coast, it remains to be explained how it was possible for this current not only to carry its load such a distance, but, at the same time, to climb uphill more than 1,000 meters before dumping the load on top of a submarine hill.”

A year later, in the fall of 1949, Professor M. Ewing of Columbia University published a report on more findings made along the Mid-Atlantic Ridge of a curious nature. Ewing observed: “One was the discovery of prehistoric beach sand brought up in one case from a depth of two and the other nearly three and a half miles, far from any place where beaches exist today.” Beach sand is formed as the result of the action of waves pounding a seashore, in shallow water, and in the action of rain, winds and extreme temperature changes—events which do not take place deep beneath the ocean.

A second mystery involved unexplained differences in sediments on the foothills of the Ridge. As Ewing described it: “Measurements clearly indicate thousands of feet of sediments on the foothills of the Ridge. Surprisingly, however, we have found that in the great flat basins on either side of the Ridge, this sediment appears to be less than 100 feet thick.” Ewing called this a “startling fact,” because such a lack of thick deposits in the basin suggests a relatively young age for the formation of the present Atlantic undersea floor.

The type of sediment deposits found were also striking: Samples dating at 11,000 B.P. from the western half of the North Atlantic showed ocean mud, but those from the eastern side—especially in the region where Plato placed Atlantis—revealed granite, mud stones, rocks striated by glacial action, land soil and loose gravel.

http://www.forgottenagesresearch.com/vanished-civilizations-series/Platos-AtlantisMemories-and-Remains-of-Poseidons-C.htm

[Abramelin]

I hope you also noticed the dates of those researches.

[Abramelin]

Paulo Riven has done the number crunching on the Richat Structure being the central rings of Atlantis.

https://sites.google.com/site/tribesofatlantis/Home/evanor-s-emporium

I have read a lot about what Riven posted, and he must be posting from the Twilight Zone, or from some mental hospital.

I am not sure, but I think he once posted on an Atlantis site that he thinks he is the reincarnation of an Atlantic ruler.

If you think we should take him seriously, then wait till I am hammered; then I can cook up a lot more bull than he will ever be capable of.

Here he is, on YouTube:

.

Edited September 27, 2010 by Abramelin

[Swede]

I'm going to leave you all with this tonight...

-------------------------

We find that there is considerable evidence both from oceanography and geology for the former existence of a large mid-ocean Atlantic land mass. Plato placed Atlantis just west of the Straits of Gibraltar. If we follow his directions to the letter, we arrive in the area of the islands of the Azores, near the Mid-Atlantic Ridge. If these were once part of a much larger island—the 400,000 square miles Plato described Atlantis as once having been—then it would answer a long-standing enigma of what happened to the Atlantic Gulf Stream during the Ice Age. The Gulf Stream originates as a western current of warm water between West Africa and South America, enters the Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico, then leaves the east coast of North America as a warm easterly current, flowing to the Azores, and turns northward to travel to Britain and Norway. It is the heat carried by the Stream that gives northern Europe a much milder, more temperate climate than it normally would have for such latitudes. This is made apparent when we realize that London exists on the same latitude as the cold and barren plains of Labrador.

Now during the Ice Age, northern Europe was covered by a thick blanket of ice. Temperatures all over the world were generally cooler at that time, but the Gulf Stream should still have been warm enough to have prevented the glacial ice from covering at least Great Britain and portions of Scandinavia. As it was, the ice buried the location where London now it under a mile of ice, and the glaciers pushed as far south in central Europe as Berlin.

The only explanation is that during the Ice Age some barrier existed in the mid-Atlantic that prevented the Gulf Stream from reaching northern Europe, and that toward the end of the Ice Age this barrier was suddenly removed and the Stream established its present route. The proposed “barrier” would have been situated exactly where Plato placed Atlantis: An island of the size and location that Plato specified would have been more than sufficient to divert the path of the Gulf Stream. What is more, it is at precisely that time Plato said Atlantis sank—11,500 B.P.—that paleoclimatologists note dramatic changes took place in ocean temperatures and European weather patterns, in part caused by a change Gulf Stream route.

Many myths and legends the world over preserve a memory of Atlantis as having been Paradise, the home of the gods and heroes—the origin point from which many peoples either received the gift of civilization, or escaped when the land was lost. Plato tells us that the fertile plain of Atlantis grew all manners of foods and vegetation, having a temperate to tropical climate, sheltered by the mountains in the north from boreal winds. As we already noted, up until twelve thousand years ago, the Gulf Stream was blocked from reaching northern Europe by the presence of Atlantis where the Azores are today. Because of this, Atlantis received most of the Stream’s warmth and tempering effects on wind and plentiful rainfall, before it was diverted back toward the south. At the same time, cold ocean currents and icy winds descending from glacial-covered northern Europe were stopped by the towering Atlantean mountainsin the north of the island. Thus, Atlantis had an ideal, garden-like climate, at a time when most of Europe and North America were in the grip of the Ice Age.

During this era, judging from Plato’s description, the Atlantean people possessed a high civilization, commanding great wealth and power. In contrast, all the known prehistoric civilizations, both in the Old World and the New, were at this time either just beginning to acquire the rudiments of civilization, or at least had a civilization on a very simple level. In Plato’s record, we read that Athens was not more than a prehistoric wooden fortress, and the people of the Nile had yet to acquire the status of a grand culture it was later to become. To them, and the rest of the pre-emerging known civilizations, Atlantis—with its civilization fully evolved and its empire far-flung and expanding—would have appeared as an island of cultural wonder and ease. And it is the memory of just such a place, and its location in the area of the Atlantic, that is found in practically every mythology and religion.

Core samplings and observations made throughout the Atlantic—from the Azores and along the Mid-Atlantic Ridge to the Caribbean and on the continental shelves—support the existence of a former large oceanic island. In 1913, French geologist Pierre Termier analyzed lava particles taken from the sea bottom at a depth of two miles just north of the Azores. He discovered the particles to be tachylyte, a form of lava which is vitreous and not crystalline—which means it could only have solidified in air. Because the disintegration of such lava occurs within a relatively shor time, Termier dated the rock at 12-13,000 B.P.–10-11,000 B.C.E. He concluded: “The entire region north of the Azores and perhaps the very region of the Azores was very recently submerged, probably during the epoch which geologists call the Present.”

In 1924, an Eastern Cable Company repair ship was sent to a spot 800 miles north of the Cape of Good Hope in order to retrieve a broken cable between the Cape and St. Helena Island. When the grapnels were lowered, the found the broken cable at a depth of three-quarters of a mile. The mystery was, when the cable had been laid in 1899, the depth recorded at this point had been 2,700 fathoms, or just over three miles. What this means is that within just 25 years, the ocean bottom had risen almost two miles. This finding serves as an example of what tremendous forces are at work beneath the Atlantic Ocean floor, forces that can not only raise land relatively quickly, but could probably also sink land, like Atlantis of old.

Ten years later, in the summer of 1934, the Woods Hole Institute research ship, appropriately named Atlantis, took tow-dredgings from off the Georges Bank and Cape Cod, at depths of 8,000 feet. What the expedition discovered were fossil-bearing rocks from the late Tertiary period which showed they had been cut out by river action since that time. H. C. Stetson, commenting on this finding in the Bulletin of the Geological Survey of America, said: “A fall and rise of sea level of the order or magnitude which the evidence demands, coupled with the shortness of time within which it must have taken place, approaches catastrophic.”

Another oceanographic survey, performed in 1947-1948 by the Swedish Deep Sea Expedition aboard the Albatross, took core samplings from along the Mid-Atlantic Ridge. What amazed the researchers involved was that several cores, from a depth of two miles down, revealed the remains of fresh water diatoms or algae, below a layer of marine sediments. One core, taken from 8,000 feet, off the Sierra Leone Ridge 578 miles from the west coast of Africa, contained more than 60 species of diatoms all exclusively fresh water type.

Swedish pale botanist R. W. Kolbe regarded this sample as evidence of a strata laid down by fresh water, while his colleague, geologist Rene Malaise, concluded that the diatoms had lived in a fresh water lake once above water. Conservative researchers attempted to explain the presence of these diatoms as being the result of a “turbidity current” having carried the micro-life from the African coast and deposited them in their present position. As Kolbe pointed out, however: “If ever we should accept the faint possibility of a turbidity current flowing from the African coast and dumping its load of fresh water diatoms at a distance of 930 km from the coast, it remains to be explained how it was possible for this current not only to carry its load such a distance, but, at the same time, to climb uphill more than 1,000 meters before dumping the load on top of a submarine hill.”

A year later, in the fall of 1949, Professor M. Ewing of Columbia University published a report on more findings made along the Mid-Atlantic Ridge of a curious nature. Ewing observed: “One was the discovery of prehistoric beach sand brought up in one case from a depth of two and the other nearly three and a half miles, far from any place where beaches exist today.” Beach sand is formed as the result of the action of waves pounding a seashore, in shallow water, and in the action of rain, winds and extreme temperature changes—events which do not take place deep beneath the ocean.

A second mystery involved unexplained differences in sediments on the foothills of the Ridge. As Ewing described it: “Measurements clearly indicate thousands of feet of sediments on the foothills of the Ridge. Surprisingly, however, we have found that in the great flat basins on either side of the Ridge, this sediment appears to be less than 100 feet thick.” Ewing called this a “startling fact,” because such a lack of thick deposits in the basin suggests a relatively young age for the formation of the present Atlantic undersea floor.

The type of sediment deposits found were also striking: Samples dating at 11,000 B.P. from the western half of the North Atlantic showed ocean mud, but those from the eastern side—especially in the region where Plato placed Atlantis—revealed granite, mud stones, rocks striated by glacial action, land soil and loose gravel.

http://www.forgottenagesresearch.com/vanished-civilizations-series/Platos-AtlantisMemories-and-Remains-of-Poseidons-C.htm

Just a problem or two: The Azores are volcanic and have no continental platform. They are essentially volcanic mountain tops that are a product of extrusion from plate boundaries. Please see below;

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:vghyNICULq4J:copranet.projects.eucc-d.de/files/000145_EUROSION_Azores.pdf+Azores+geology&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESitOE9YPowum-XiXiOeiYm5M4zVKP6SPo6-IeLXVlwGOaXuJwzruK6T3IWJg7Hp7RIYE3NEyKLUoOIEfYkI-_icLRimExLweZyVre0iShqVDEcFc8vfu6YER0GZTwKzO7jW-PyI&sig=AHIEtbTg8lOuj_1rBpRU_GNU73oGigEv6g

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:FfsGMhkqpjUJ:https://estudogeral.sib.uc.pt/jspui/bitstream/10316/3936/1/file4aeba739e3584e7b84f0fcaddc1f367e.pdf+Azores+geology&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShAt-4-J4DWkxJuFAS_YnLgFh9jmezPPPP_r2TYSLQjDv_glv9PJJ2VrpQWi-0bbEN6VBMR_whiiS87lZU4XX-p7iKdue1mL8lDHEBGBQbyzSUZyg3Vi2WZ7RSwQW0-8Jj3Oz5S&sig=AHIEtbQLLrLhiwMaCK1F1dsbim8XNCUPMA

As to the Gulf Stream, recent research has called the long held impact of such into question;

http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/res/div/ocp/gs/

For more on the Gulf Stream, please see below. Note dominant flow areas.

http://web.me.com/uriarte/Earths_Climate/Appendix_4._Ocean_currents.html

And Abe is most correct about the out-of-date information in your reference, not to mention the interpretation of the data. In addition, Jochmans is a, shall we say, questionable (!) source.

.

[kmt_sesh]

I have read a lot about what Riven posted, and he must be posting from the Twilight Zone, or from some mental hospital.

I am not sure, but I think he once posted on an Atlantis site that he thinks he is the reincarnation of an Atlantic ruler.

If you think we should take him seriously, then wait till I am hammered; then I can cook up a lot more bull than he will ever be capable of.

Here he is, on YouTube:

.

I think probably more than a few of us around here are familiar with this poster, at least to some extent. Just the same, I think more than a few of us know the difference between unrealistic, whimsical, self-aggrandizement and real-world, applicable historical research.

I don't think it matters how hammered you might be, Abramelin. You'd still be able to see the Twilight Zone in his posts.

[cormac mac airt]

…we have Saturn at the North celestial Pole c. 9600BC for 400 years…

That would appear to be incorrect as Saturn never rises more than about 25 degrees above the horizon at that time,

as seen from the North Pole. Placing it nowhere near the North Celestial Pole.

...which is the exact timeframe Herodotus gives for Osiris as the priests have told him.

And yet, there is no evidence for the existence of Osiris before the mid-Fifth Dynasty of Egypt nor any evidence

that Egyptian priests, during the time of the Achaemenid/Persian Empire's rule, knew of any such events happening

that far back in time.

...the people are a Mechtoid type, which are actually cro-Magnon...

No they aren’t. Slim and I have already been through this. See the following:

Early Holocene Maghreb Prehistory: An Evolutionary Approach

cormac

[cormac mac airt]

I think probably more than a few of us around here are familiar with this poster, at least to some extent. Just the same, I think more than a few of us know the difference between unrealistic, whimsical, self-aggrandizement and real-world, applicable historical research.

I don't think it matters how hammered you might be, Abramelin. You'd still be able to see the Twilight Zone in his posts.

The rushed monotone delivery was bad enough. But watching a hairy, shirtless dude scratch himself and smoke a cigarette while making said presentation was apalling, to say the least. And after all that, he wasn't even man enough to show his face. Epic fail!

cormac

[kmt_sesh]

The rushed monotone delivery was bad enough. But watching a hairy, shirtless dude scratch himself and smoke a cigarette while making said presentation was apalling, to say the least. And after all that, he wasn't even man enough to show his face. Epic fail!

cormac

You know, I was going to comment on the hairy chest but decided not to. I mean, who on earth wants to see that? Personally I can understand why he didn't want to show his face, given the certifiable nutcases trolling the internet (if not especially YouTube). Still, 9-plus minutes of such unsubstantiated, fairy-tale twaddle is more than any reasoning adult can withstand. I know I gave up after about a minute and a half.

This is not a source to cite. In any capacity.

I wonder if Sitchin's chest is that hairy?