[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[Otharus]

There is nothing mysterious about the Reis map at all.

I did not say that and hereby suggest to leave a discussion about Piri Reis map for another thread.

There is one relevant parallel that was my point:

Information often being older than the information carrier (paper and ink).

[Hanslune]

I did not say that and hereby suggest to leave a discussion about Piri Reis map for another thread.

There is one relevant parallel that was my point:

Information often being older than the information carrier (paper and ink).

just like was proven to be the case with the Piri Reis maps, that contain information that is known now (the shores of Antactica under the ice), but was not known when the copy was made (16th century),

Howdy Otharus

The information in the Piri Reis map was contemporary, ie contemporary information on a contemporary map therefore it doesn't support your contention. It also brings into question the extent at which you research things. I would suspect that you actually believe the Hapgood myth that the Reis map contained 'ancient information', it does not. If you've made such an amateur error with Reis what does this do to your claim of 'knowing' when dealing with OLB?

A better selection for your example would be a medieval manuscript copied from a known Latin or Greek text, say part of Pliny's work. Which would then in fact be older information on a newer medium.

Regards

Hans

[Otharus]

If you've made such an amateur error with Reis what does this do to your claim of 'knowing' when dealing with OLB?

I admit that - contrary to OLB - Piri Reis is not one of my specialities. Thank you for correcting me.

Edited October 27, 2010 by Otharus

[Abramelin]

Otharus did answer this but he and I have noticed what others have failed to, that the rivers all led the sea faring men to Wralda's Sea. The Danube does not come out at Wralda's Sea. Nor do many of the other rivers mentioned by Alewyn.

I know your aim is to tackle what Alewyn has said and your answer here might reflect that but imo this thread is no longer just about Alewyn's book and his interpretations.

Unless we tackle the OLB first, how can we question Alewyn's book?

That was the problem I had reading Alewyn's book in the first place. Just because Joe Blow tells me something in one sentence, I am now conditioned to investigate every little thing I hear and make an informed decision based on all my findings, then I might be able to comment on the book.

This thread is and was and should be about the OLB AND Alewyn's book about it.

But yes, I have said from the beginning that if we want to discuss Alewyn's book (and we did that already many times), then we should discuss the OLB itself first. And I think we did quite a lot of that already.

I am glad Otharus is participating in this thread: just look at the "Westland" thing. Most people (and many non-Dutch writers) base their theories about the OLB on English translations like Sandbach's.

"I know your aim is to tackle what Alewyn has said and your answer here might reflect that"

My aim is the have a critical look at the claims Alewyn makes in his book.

And if I don't agree, I will post it here. He can post another verse from the Bible to tell me I am too stupid to talk with, that's all fine with me.

[Abramelin]

I also said why I left it out

I was aware of that, but I hope Alewyn read it too..

[The Puzzler]

This thread is and was and should be about the OLB AND Alewyn's book about it.

But yes, I have said from the beginning that if we want to discuss Alewyn's book (and we did that already many times), then we should discuss the OLB itself first. And I think we did quite a lot of that already.

I am glad Otharus is participating in this thread: just look at the "Westland" thing. Most people (and many non-Dutch writers) base their theories about the OLB on English translations like Sandbach's.

"I know your aim is to tackle what Alewyn has said and your answer here might reflect that"

My aim is the have a critical look at the claims Alewyn makes in his book.

And if I don't agree, I will post it here. He can post another verse from the Bible to tell me I am too stupid to talk with, that's all fine with me.

OK, I'll play the game then your way. '

I am also glad Otharus is here.

Summary:

Reasons Alewyn gave for flooding event c. 2193BC cannot be proven fact in scientific circles, that being an extraterrestial impact in the Indian Ocean.

More recent prehistoric impacts are theorized by the Holocene Impact Working Group, including Dallas Abbott of Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory in Palisades, N.Y.[7] This group points to four enormous chevron sediment deposits at the southern end of Madagascar, containing deep-ocean microfossils fused with metals typically formed by cosmic impacts. All of the chevrons point toward a spot in the middle of the Indian Ocean where newly discovered Burckle crater,[8]29 km (18 mi) in diameter, or about 25 times larger than Barringer Crater, lies 3,800 m (12,500 ft) below the surface. This group posits that a large asteroid or comet impact c. 2800-3000 BC produced a mega-tsunami at least 180 m (590 ft) high, a catastrophic event that would have affected humanity's cradles of civilization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_event

-------------------------------------------------------------

Alewyn, I'm afraid as much as I think your book is a terrific read it cannot be escaped that the group officially investigating the Burckle Impact date it to c.2800BC. This is where the problem is arising.

Here's an interesting impact though:

The latest major impact event occurred in Kaali, Estonia about 700 BC.

Estonia 700BC we have some sort of major impact event. Right near the Aestii, the Vistula, the Finno-Urgit speakers in the East. Aesir with iron weapons.

I know that doesn't equate to 2193BC but neither does the Northern Europeans having iron weapons.

[Abramelin]

Here's an interesting impact though:

The latest major impact event occurred in Kaali, Estonia about 700 BC.

Estonia 700BC we have some sort of major impact event. Right near the Aestii, the Vistula, the Finno-Urgit speakers in the East. Aesir with iron weapons.

I know that doesn't equate to 2193BC but neither does the Northern Europeans having iron weapons.

Yes, and I posted about the Kaali impact pages ago.

And even the true date of the impact is uncertain: it ranges from 700 BC to 3000 BC. (the 700 BC date is based on the remnants of a wooden henge built around the lake that formed after the impact; the 3000 BC date is based on samples of sediment layers below the lake).

--

EDIT:

And it may even be much older than 3000 BC:

http://www.saaremaa.ee/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=592

..which is of course the reason I used this impact in the Doggerland thread (spiralling comet, and so on...)

.

Edited October 27, 2010 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

Off-topic, my sincere apologies but I'm a bit excited by the Kaali Crater in Estonia.

The incoming meteor cluster had an estimated impact velocity of between 10 and 20 km/s with a total mass of between 20 and 80 metric tonnes. At the altitude of 5-10 km, the meteorite broke into pieces and fell to the Earth in fragments, the greatest of which produced a crater with a diameter of 110 m and a depth of 22 m. Kaali Lake (Estonian: Kaali järv) exists in the bottom of this crater.

Eight smaller craters were also associated with this bombardment. Their diameters range from 12 to 40 meters and their respective depths vary from one to four meters. They are all within one kilometer of the main crater.

The impact is thought to have occurred in the Holocene, around 660 ± 85 BCE. The impact energy of about 80 TJ (20 kilotons of TNT) is comparable with that of the Hiroshima bomb blast, incinerating forests within a 6 km. radius.[2]

Scholars maintain that the event figured prominently in regional mythology. It was, and still is, considered a sacred lake. There is archaeological evidence that it may well have been a place of ritual sacrifice.

During the early Iron Age, the lake was surrounded by a stone wall measuring 470 meters in length, with a median width of about 2.5 meters and an average height of 2.0 meters.

Prior to the 1930s, the main crater was thought to have been of volcanic origin, i.e. a caldera. Its meteoritic origins were first conclusively demonstrated by Iwan Reinwald in 1937.

Finnish mythology has stories that may describe happenings of Kaali, one of them in runes 47, 48 and 49 of the Kalevala epic. Louhi, the evil wizard, steals the Sun and fire from people, causing total darkness. Ukko, the god of the sky, orders a new Sun to be made from a spark. The virgin of the air starts to make a new Sun, but the spark drops from the sky and hits the ground. This spark goes to an "Aluen" or "Kalevan"[3] lake and causes its water to rise. Finnish heroes see the ball of fire falling somewhere "behind the Neva river" (the direction of Estonia from Karelia). The heroes head that direction to seek fire, and they finally gather flames from a forest fire.

According to a theory first proposed by Lennart Meri, it is possible that Saaremaa was the legendary Thule island, first mentioned by ancient Greek geographer Pytheas, whereas the name "Thule" could have been connected to the Finnic word tule ("(of) fire") and the folklore of Estonia, which depicts the birth of the crater lake in Kaali. Kaali was considered the place where "The sun went to rest."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaali_crater

How about one in Egypt less than 5000 years old...

The Kamil Crater is a 45-metre (148 ft) wide and 16 m (52 ft) deep meteorite impact crater in the East Uweinat Desert in southwestern New Valley Governorate, Egypt, 2 kilometres (1.2 mi) north of the border with the Sudan.[1][2] It was located in 2008 using Google Earth satellite imagery by Vincenzo de Michele (former curator of the Museo Civico di Storia Naturale di Milan in Milan, Italy).[3]

The first geophysical study of the Kamil Crater was conducted during an Italian-Egyptian expedition undertaken in February 2010[3] as part of the 2009 Egyptian-Italian Science Year (EISY)[4] and proved the meteoritic origin of the crater. It is estimated to be less than 5,000 years old[5] and shows a well-preserved rayed structure.[2] The crater was produced by an iron meteorite that has been given an official name after the closest topographic feature in the area, Gebel Kamil,[6][4] and which fragmented into thousands of pieces upon impact with the sandstone bedrock. The meteor is estimated to have been 1.3 metres (4 ft 3 in) wide and to have weighed 5,000 to 10,000 kilograms (11,023 to 22,046 lb).[2] Meteor fragments totalling 800 kilograms (1,764 lb) were recovered during the geophysical expedition, the bulk of which are curated at the Egyptian Geological Museum in Cairo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamil_Crater

[The Puzzler]

Yes, and I posted about the Kaali impact pages ago.

And even the true date of the impact is uncertain: it ranges from 700 BC to 3000 BC. (the 700 BC date is based on the remnants of a wooden henge built around the lake that formed after the impact; the 3000 BC date is based on samples of sediment layers below the lake).

--

EDIT:

And it may even be much older than 3000 BC:

http://www.saaremaa.ee/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=592

..which is of course the reason I used this impact in the Doggerland thread (spiralling comet, and so on...)

.

Yes, I apologise for not getting into the Doggerland thread and again, the Kaali impact probably passed me by pages ago, only now, when I realise who the Estonians might be does it actually start to have some interest for me.

I'll check that dating out.

[The Puzzler]

Anyway, that's it for me, I'll leave it at that before I spiral off somewhere else.

One more teeny thing: (from your link)

The bottom sediment layers are about six meters thick and up to 4 000 years old.

2000BC.

Edited October 27, 2010 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

Anyway, that's it for me, I'll leave it at that before I spiral off somewhere else.

One more teeny thing: (from your link)

The bottom sediment layers are about six meters thick and up to 4 000 years old.

2000BC.

From the same link:

The craters or their embankments do not contain marine sediments. Therefore the craters cannot be older than the time the area emerged from the sea. The explosion scattered into the air abundantly fine particles of soil and rock, which by melting formed glassy spherules. These spherules have been found in mires and lake sedimets in the vicinity of the craters. The age of the layers of peat with microimpactites is 7500 to 7600 years, which is the most probable age of the Kaali craters

People like Ottema and Alewyn would not be happy with that date, but people like Overwijn and I most certainly would, lol.

EDIT:

In the Doggerland thread I suggested that maybe a spiralling comet (like Hale-Bopp) impacted into the North Sea, causing the Storegga Slide and the subsequent tsunami that whiped out the last remnants of Doggerland. An impact remembered by the people living around the North Sea, in their cup-and-circle petroglyphs, circular shaped henges and labyrinths.

The Kaali impact may have been one of many, and one fragment of the comet may have impacted west of Norway causing the Storegga Slide.

If the original comet was a spiralling one (= outgassing sideways and rotating, like Hale-Bopp), it must have been an awesome and scary heavenly phenomenon (because it must have been close to earth, and maybe brighter and larger than the full moon), and one causing a Biblical sized flood.

Something the people who survived would certainly remember in their myths.

The Storegga Slide (= the last one) happened at 6145 BC according to radiocarbon dated samples taken from the North Sea floor, that's 8145 years ago. Give and take an error of a couple of centuries, AND taking into account that science thinks the final submergence of Dogger Island (that's AFTER the Storegga Slide) took place around 5500-5000 BC, the Kaali comet would be a great candidate.

FYI: Ottema equated the event at 2193 BC (the flooding of the North Sea plain) with the Cimbrian Flood. And so did Overwijn, the second person who translated the OLB (first edition 1941, second edition - the one I have - 1951). But Overwijn said it happened around 6250 BC.

.

Edited October 27, 2010 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

A image from Overwijn's book (the 1951 edition):

Check the text below the image...

It says: "North Western Europe before the Cimbrian Flood in circa 6250 BC".

Now I ask those who read "my" Doggerland thread: don't you think I would LOVE the OLB to be a true ancient historical manuscript??

And then according to Overwijn's interpretation of the OLB, and not Ottema's and Alewyn's interpretations and those of many others?

But Overwijn was heavily influenced by the works of Blavatsky and to a minor degree by Velikovsky's books.

.

Edited October 27, 2010 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

And this is how Sylvain Tristan and Jean Deruelle (two French writers) imagined how Doggerland/Dogger Island looked like, 3000 BC:

And they never even talked and probably never even heard of the OLB.

They assumed that Dogger Island was above sea level far longer than 5500 BC : they assumed it was protected by dikes and stayed above sea level to at least 3000 BC.

Well, isn't that close to 2193 BC or what??

They thought that Doggerland was the origin of the megalithic culture of western Europe, and that the inhabitants of that country were in close contact with the people living at the shores of the Mediterrenean.

===========

EDIT:

THE DOGGER ISLAND

SPM: How do you explain that the myth of Atlantis refers to an island?

Sylvain Tristan: Mythical accounts in Greece tell us that Apollo originally came from Hyperborea, which we saw was most probably northern Europe. Moreover, the legends of Avalon, Atland and Aztlán, which respectively belong to the mythologies of the Celts, the Frisians and the Aztecs, all suggest an island that would have existed long ago in northern Europe. So, the issue is, did the island of Atlantis described by Plato once exist somewhere in northern Europe, even if we know that the Greek philosopher probably deliberately exaggerated facts about it in his account? Strangely enough, there is a submerged island in the North Sea. As there are Megalithic sites all around the North Sea (in Scandinavia, Germany, Holland and Britain), it just stands to reason that, should this island have been emerged in Megalithic times, there must have been Megalithic settlements on it as well. This submarine island is called the Dogger Bank. Scientists generally think the Dogger Bank has been submerged before 5000 BC, which would chronologically place it before the Megalithic era. There are, however, reasons to doubt the validity of this date. For some geological reasons due to the last Ice Age, the ground in this part of the world has been slowly going down – it still is, which explains why today in Holland, Germany and England, people regularly have to fight against the sea which is encroaching the lands that are sinking on the shores of the North Sea. There is little doubt in my opinion that the Dogger Bank has been rising out of water much later than scientists tend to think, hence at Megalithic times these lands were probably settled by them. That’s probably the submersion of this island that later gave birth to different myths of a lost island like those of Mesopotamia, Egypt, and so on – and of course Plato’s “tale” of Atlantis. I personally think there are strong presumptions to carry out underwater excavations, or at least investigations, in the Dogger Bank area. Undersea Megalithic sites and, who knows, scanty remains of a lost capital might be found there in the shallow waters of central North Sea. After the flooding of the island, perhaps around 3500-3100 BC, the Megalithic people might have sought new lands in the Middle East, and finally created a new ‘capital’ on another northern island – in Britain, in the Stonehenge/Avebury area, for example.

http://www.world-mysteries.com/newgw/gw_stristan1.htm

http://spcov.free.fr/site_nicoulaud/en/atlandide.php-

He, Tristan, is plain wrong about what scientists think, btw.

++++

EDIT:

Tristan mentions the Frisians......hmmmmmmmm....

Maybe I am wrong, and he DID know about the OLB.

.

Edited October 27, 2010 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

And this is how Sylvain Tristan and Jean Deruelle (two French writers) imagined how Doggerland/Dogger Island looked like, 3000 BC:

And they never even talked and probably never even heard of the OLB.

They assumed that Dogger Island was above sea level far longer than 5500 BC : they assumed it was protected by dikes and stayed above sea level to at least 3000 BC.

Well, isn't that close to 2193 BC or what??

They thought that Doggerland was the origin of the megalithic culture of western Europe, and that the inhabitants of that country were in close contact with the people living at the shores of the Mediterrenean.

===========

EDIT:

THE DOGGER ISLAND

SPM: How do you explain that the myth of Atlantis refers to an island?

Sylvain Tristan: Mythical accounts in Greece tell us that Apollo originally came from Hyperborea, which we saw was most probably northern Europe. Moreover, the legends of Avalon, Atland and Aztlán, which respectively belong to the mythologies of the Celts, the Frisians and the Aztecs, all suggest an island that would have existed long ago in northern Europe. So, the issue is, did the island of Atlantis described by Plato once exist somewhere in northern Europe, even if we know that the Greek philosopher probably deliberately exaggerated facts about it in his account? Strangely enough, there is a submerged island in the North Sea. As there are Megalithic sites all around the North Sea (in Scandinavia, Germany, Holland and Britain), it just stands to reason that, should this island have been emerged in Megalithic times, there must have been Megalithic settlements on it as well. This submarine island is called the Dogger Bank. Scientists generally think the Dogger Bank has been submerged before 5000 BC, which would chronologically place it before the Megalithic era. There are, however, reasons to doubt the validity of this date. For some geological reasons due to the last Ice Age, the ground in this part of the world has been slowly going down – it still is, which explains why today in Holland, Germany and England, people regularly have to fight against the sea which is encroaching the lands that are sinking on the shores of the North Sea. There is little doubt in my opinion that the Dogger Bank has been rising out of water much later than scientists tend to think, hence at Megalithic times these lands were probably settled by them. That’s probably the submersion of this island that later gave birth to different myths of a lost island like those of Mesopotamia, Egypt, and so on – and of course Plato’s “tale” of Atlantis. I personally think there are strong presumptions to carry out underwater excavations, or at least investigations, in the Dogger Bank area. Undersea Megalithic sites and, who knows, scanty remains of a lost capital might be found there in the shallow waters of central North Sea. After the flooding of the island, perhaps around 3500-3100 BC, the Megalithic people might have sought new lands in the Middle East, and finally created a new ‘capital’ on another northern island – in Britain, in the Stonehenge/Avebury area, for example.

http://www.world-mysteries.com/newgw/gw_stristan1.htm

http://spcov.free.fr/site_nicoulaud/en/atlandide.php-

He, Tristan, is plain wrong about what scientists think, btw.

++++

EDIT:

Tristan mentions the Frisians......hmmmmmmmm....

Maybe I am wrong, and he DID know about the OLB.

.

[Abramelin]

Cool, you didnt delete my post, but copied the former one.

[The Puzzler]

From the same link:

The craters or their embankments do not contain marine sediments. Therefore the craters cannot be older than the time the area emerged from the sea. The explosion scattered into the air abundantly fine particles of soil and rock, which by melting formed glassy spherules. These spherules have been found in mires and lake sedimets in the vicinity of the craters. The age of the layers of peat with microimpactites is 7500 to 7600 years, which is the most probable age of the Kaali craters

People like Ottema and Alewyn would not be happy with that date, but people like Overwijn and I most certainly would, lol.

EDIT:

In the Doggerland thread I suggested that maybe a spiralling comet (like Hale-Bopp) impacted into the North Sea, causing the Storegga Slide and the subsequent tsunami that whiped out the last remnants of Doggerland. An impact remembered by the people living around the North Sea, in their cup-and-circle petroglyphs, circular shaped henges and labyrinths.

The Kaali impact may have been one of many, and one fragment of the comet may have impacted west of Norway causing the Storegga Slide.

If the original comet was a spiralling one (= outgassing sideways and rotating, like Hale-Bopp), it must have been an awesome and scary heavenly phenomenon (because it must have been close to earth, and maybe brighter and larger than the full moon), and one causing a Biblical sized flood.

Something the people who survived would certainly remember in their myths.

The Storegga Slide (= the last one) happened at 6145 BC according to radiocarbon dated samples taken from the North Sea floor, that's 8145 years ago. Give and take an error of a couple of centuries, AND taking into account that science thinks the final submergence of Dogger Island (that's AFTER the Storegga Slide) took place around 5500-5000 BC, the Kaali comet would be a great candidate.

FYI: Ottema equated the event at 2193 BC (the flooding of the North Sea plain) with the Cimbrian Flood. And so did Overwijn, the second person who translated the OLB (first edition 1941, second edition - the one I have - 1951). But Overwijn said it happened around 6250 BC.

.

5500BC, I think it's the Phaethon story. I will follow it up more. I don't think it would have to hit the Slide (area), the impact on the Earth in Estonia imo would have a geological effect all the way through, possible slides could have occurred. Seems in the German Bight from the pictures (Dogger area, not just the bank), Heligoland area and we know Heligoland was very large, with only channels between it and the mainland, it's sedimentry rock, unusual. I will check this out more, just got up, need coffee....

Edited October 27, 2010 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:pGNCdxZhmf8J:www.gi.ee/~veski/Veski%2520Kaali%2520review.pdf+Kaali+Crater+Phaethon&hl=en&gl=au&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShUCZyKhqUNdRcJ4J-QDFT9ALBQwy2F0BnZjRsPvjDcvs4RNbfp0YtR-3bSvF1ntx2rU6tjB3DwNRNHkTOU6rapbmycG-o1L664uq3kPlwH4IpI7v05wBP9f-94hEo2-DD21Z81&sig=AHIEtbR-T1V-96RYb9sVHoSvB5nrb_RduA

"The grave where the sun fell dead"....

Happy Happy Joy Joy!

[Alewyn]

Reasons Alewyn gave for flooding event c. 2193BC cannot be proven fact in scientific circles, that being an extraterrestial impact in the Indian Ocean.

Alewyn, I'm afraid as much as I think your book is a terrific read it cannot be escaped that the group officially investigating the Burckle Impact date it to c.2800BC. This is where the problem is arising.

I know that doesn't equate to 2193BC but neither does the Northern Europeans having iron weapons.

Puzzler, Bruce Massy says the date is ca. 2800 BC and Dallas Abbott says 2500 BC. Neither of them has proven their dates and admit that at this stage the date is guesswork. The interesting thing is this: Bruce Massy admits that he based his date on the widely speculated date of 2800 BC for the Biblical flood.

Nothing more. You can check this for yourself.

The OLB aside. If you use the date of 2193 BC for the Biblical Flood and other flood myths, the dates and chronology checks out exactly. It is realy a pity that you have not examined that part of my book in more detail.

[The Puzzler]

Puzzler, Bruce Massy says the date is ca. 2800 BC and Dallas Abbott says 2500 BC. Neither of them has proven their dates and admit that at this stage the date is guesswork. The interesting thing is this: Bruce Massy admits that he based his date on the widely speculated date of 2800 BC for the Biblical flood.

Nothing more. You can check this for yourself.

The OLB aside. If you use the date of 2193 BC for the Biblical Flood and other flood myths, the dates and chronology checks out exactly. It is realy a pity that you have not examined that part of my book in more detail.

Bruce Massy admits that he based his date on the widely speculated date of 2800 BC for the Biblical flood.

Nothing more. You can check this for yourself.

You have pretty much done the same thing yourself but you are putting the Biblical Flood at 2193BC.

The flood layer in Sumeria dates to 2800BC and the Sumerian King List tallies to that timeframe also as the Flood date of c. 2800BC.

I'd be interested in a dating for the Kaali Crater myself and to me, this is where the Magyar, Finns might have come from and it sounds like Atland to me. Estonia area. I've read some pdf's and there is 3 dates being thrown around for Kaali, I'd like to see one at 2200BC myself. There is nothing to say really the Kaali didn't impact at 2193BC.

Just like your impact.

There's another in Western Egypt less than 5000 years old. I was wondering if impacts came at the same time, some fell in Estonia, one fell on the Western Desert in Egypt (which the Phaethon myth also has him burning black the faces of the Ethiopians) and one fell into the Indian Ocean.

I'd like to date the Kaali impact to 2193BC.

[The Puzzler]

This is an excellent pdf file on Impact Tectonics and all dating of the Kaali Crater.

http://books.google.com/books?id=2zRK6DCWyq0C&lpg=PA232&ots=hC0eR1NXPn&dq=dobele%20crater&pg=PA341#v=onepage&q=dobele%20crater&f=false

Page 349 it starts as this: Traditionally, in Estonia the age of the impact is placed at some 4000 yr BP.

The whole research ends with this:

"At least 3390+_35 years old, however, actually they should be much older." Apparently it was rather weak and didn't cause any ecological disaster in the environment.

Edit to add: The uplifted dolomite seems to indicate a fairly hard impact though...

Edited October 28, 2010 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

So, the Estonians themselves say it is around 2000BC, I find that interesting and am going to milk it for all it's worth. Pretty much like what Alewyn is doing anyway, and trying to put history against myth is tricky at the best of times. The people who have first hand recorded the event imo have a good idea of when it occurred. It seems to be in the Finnish Sagas too.

It would have created tsunami's, whatever size, throughout the Baltic. Gotland looks a perfect candidate to have been hit by huge waves, west of Saaremaa.

The hole it made is very deep so even though it doesn't appear to have spread, it should be noted that not only is the hole said to be the entrance to Hell as well as being one of 9 seperate impacts in the area, imo it could have started underground activity that may have went on to become earthquakes or whatever, guesswork there, but really, if 9 iron meteors hit the island and surrounds, I find it hard to believe it wouldn't have caused quite some damage in some way.

Fires would be a given for a start and it is mentioned it did cause fire in the Finnish saga, not only that but the heroes went to the area and got some fire from it. Fire was, obviously hard to get and probably a main reason to keep the fire alight at all times, probably started by this sacred fire the Finnish heroes bought back from Kaali in the first place!

Iron meteorites. Should I even start on the iron, I think I said everything. Or not. The Gods had iron weapons. The sky Gods that is, sounds like throwing down meteors might equate to sky Gods (Aesir) using iron weapons. This was a war between the Aesir and Vanir, the Vanir were more like the earth Gods.

The Icelandic generic name for deity (Ás, pl. Æsir) is also found in Etruscan (Ais/Eis, pl. Aisar/Eisar). The Old High German Ans, is a corrupt form of "eins-Ás", which means a god in general.

The name Vanir refers to the gods that people were accustomed to (vanir við). The name Ynja/Ynjur is a corrupt form of Icelandic venja/venjur (custom/customs). So basically and logically Vanir and Ynjur are the masculine and famine forms of the customary vegetative/earthly gods that people were accustomed to, before the advent of Æsir the sky gods.

---

Grimm further notes a resemblance the name of the gods of the Etruscans reported by Suetonius and Hesychius, æsares or æsi. He notes that Etruscan religion, as well as Greek (Dodekatheon) and Roman polytheism, supposed a circle of twelve superior beings closely "bound" together, as it were forming a fasces, in Rome known as the dii consentes paralleling the Eddic expressions höpt and bönd "bond" for the Æsir.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86sir

The name of Saaremaa actually translates to Isle's Land - island.

The island is called Saaremaa in Estonian, and in Finnish Saarenmaa literally "isle's land". In old Scandinavian sagas, Saaremaa is called Eysysla and in the Icelandic Sagas Eysýsla, which means exactly the same as the name of the island in Estonian: "the district (land) of island". This is the origin of the island's name in Danish Øsel, German and Swedish, Ösel, Gutnish Oysl, and in Latin, Osilia. The name Eysysla appears sometimes together with Adalsysla, "the big land", perhaps 'Suuremaa' or 'Suur Maa' in Estonian, which refers to mainland Estonia. In Latvian, the island is called Sāmsala, which means "the island of Saami".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saaremaa

or the island of Saami.

The Aestian nations are the Estonians, the Aestii on old maps, imo.

So, it's all Finno-Urgit area in the East, Estonia, a very possible place that these Magyar priests came in, Finno-Urgit speaking Saami, Lapps, called Finns for a long time.

Apparently it was recorded the Estonians use the same customs as the Swedes, wrote Tacitus. (At that time I gather)

The extent of Estonian territory in early medieval times is disputed but the nature of their religion is not. They were known to the Scandinavians as experts in wind-magic, as were the Lapps (known at the time as Finns) in the North.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Estonia

This link Abe, I think was the one you gave, I had so many up I forget, it says: page 270 "Possibly 1690BC - 1510BC."

I did see the date you are trying to swing and it seems somewhat feasible considering how unsure the dates are and the reasoning for that timeframe (6500-5500BC) but it also says the island might have been underwater at the time...

I could go either if it wasn't for the OLB and a reasoning I can see for a sinking of a place called Atland in the East where Finda's people were as well as further East, all East people were Findas imo, that could mean to the Himalayas.

The impact could account for the very solemn priests and all the ways mentioned accordingly, Mother Goddess, wind-magicians, fire, entrance to Hell, people knew about it, remembered it, it was legend and said to have occurred c. 2000BC to the Estonians themselves.

But 800-700BC would suit iron weapons much better and also is the timeframe given for Etruscans to have made their mark in Etruria. Apparently in Estonia, Eastern Europe is where the iron age occurred first c. 1000BC.

The date of 1690-1510BC fits with the dates given for Thera's eruption too.

I personally think it's a much better candidate for an impact if their was one at all involved in the OLB story and believe me I'm not adverse to some sort of tilt in the Earth but don't believe their is sufficient proof to say it happened. I have a thread here called Axial Tilt = Climate Change = Phaethon Theory http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=174415&st=0&p=3266638&fromsearch=1entry3266638

It was a while back now and I have much more info I know now but the point is, I found lots of reasons to believe there had been an axial tilt myself. One of was, Plato's mention of a declination in the Heavens being what was meant by the Phaethon myth, not to mention heaps of things in myths.

I thought it might be axial tilt and then I thought about it some more and realised, it could mean a declination (of a body) in the Heavens, a falling in the Heavens, not the actual sky declining, changing as if we moved. But what impact could it be, somehow I must have missed Kaali at the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaali_crater

Edited October 28, 2010 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

"I did see the date you are trying to swing and it seems somewhat feasible considering how unsure the dates are and the reasoning for that timeframe (6500-5500BC) but it also says the island might have been underwater at the time..."

I didn't 'swing' anything, I just copied what was said as conclusion:

The craters or their embankments do not contain marine sediments. Therefore the craters cannot be older than the time the area emerged from the sea. The explosion scattered into the air abundantly fine particles of soil and rock, which by melting formed glassy spherules. These spherules have been found in mires and lake sedimets in the vicinity of the craters. The age of the layers of peat with microimpactites is 7500 to 7600 years, which is the most probable age of the Kaali craters.

But yes, the date is uncertain:

"The precise age the impact event remains controversial:

About 4000 BP (Before the present), based on recent radiocarbon - and pollen-dating of sediments infilling the main crater (Saarse et al., 1991);

Either 370 to 400 BCE (Before the Common Era) (Rassmussen et al., 2000), or up to

7600 BP (Raukas, 1997, 2000), according to indirect dating from surrounding mire deposits."

http://go2add.com/meteorites/Kaalijarv.php

Btw, that last link also has a lot of interesting pics and sketches.

One of which shows the direction of the comet:

Figure 1. Showing the direction of the meteorite.

...and more or less makes it rather useless for my own pet theory.

EDIT:

There appears to be a confusion about the trajectory of the comet. Puzz, this pdf, the one you posted, shows us the comet came from the opposite direction:

http://www.gi.ee/~veski/Veski%20Kaali%20review.pdf

.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Here's a pdf you will like, Puzz (as far as I know you didn't post it already):

ECHOES OF ANCIENT CATACLYSMS IN THE BALTIC SEA

And they use the 2000 BC date as most probable.

---

Another thing: I don't think an impact the size of Kaali could cause the earth's axis to tilt.

Nevertheless, it was very impressive and devastating.

.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

Yes, I thought I read from North North East....because I was thinking how that could cause a tsunami towards Gotland...(?)

In fact, I see alot of conflicting info on it, I think investigation on a new level is fairly new and it's alot of guesswork, really.

As for Doggerland, I read the date of 5500BC for the glass microimpactites may be from an earlier impact in the area...(?)

[The Puzzler]

Here's a pdf you will like, Puzz (as fas as I know you didn't post it already):

ECHOES OF ANCIENT CATACLYSMS IN THE BALTIC SEA

And they use the 2000 BC date as most probable.

---

Another thing: I don't think an impact the size of Kaali could cause the earth's axis to tilt.

Nevertheless, it was very impressive and devastating.

.

Cool, just got (back here, I should have said) here, will read your previous post properly too and this one.

I don't either. No earth tilt. Just a possible meteoric impact in a similar time frame to the 4.2ky Bond Event which may have exacerbated the effects of the impacts initial destruction, if fires burned from the impact, possible heating up at the same time would make the fires burn uncontrollably longer, spreading further...that sort of thing.

From what I've briefly read on Doggerland, it doesn't seem as though it needed an impact to have occurred anyway.

A recent hypothesis is that much of the remaining coastal land, already much reduced in size from the original land area, was inundated by a tsunami around 8200BP (6200BC), caused by a submarine landslide off the coast of Norway known as the Storegga Slide. This theory suggests "that the Storegga Slide tsunami would have had a catastrophic impact on the contemporary coastal Mesolithic population... Following the Storegga Slide tsunami, it appears, Britain finally became separated from the continent and, in cultural terms, the Mesolithic there goes its own way."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doggerland

Edited October 28, 2010 by The Puzzler