An example of law based on religion

[Setton]

Your only issue is he mentions religion based.. I think you are nit picking.. when in reality - anti abortion is usually religious protesters.. People see them on the news and in the new articles.. I feel no point in nit picking over a gerneral statement from Darwind

I guess it's pretty obvious we're not going to reach an agreement on this. I just think it's wrong to attribute something to people who had nothing to do with it.

[Beckys_Mom]

I guess it's pretty obvious we're not going to reach an agreement on this. I just think it's wrong to attribute something to people who had nothing to do with it.

And I feel Darkwind is entitled to his own views so yea we disagree here

[Lion6969]

Not necessarily, but it is true that most anti-abortion activists are religiously orientated.

That's a bit of sweeping statement.

[eqgumby]

Let's cut through the bull...

Abortion at 21 weeks, is no crueler than dying outside the womb as 22 weeks. Do you have any idea how an abortion is performed at 20 weeks? Do you know live births DO occur at 20 weeks, just like was the case in this womans situation. If its is born LIVE during the abortion procedure, what do you think the medical techs do with the fetus? Try to comfort it in some manner or show the fetus some compassion? Nope. I'll leave it up to you to look up yourself.

I'm not religious. I think this law is absurd only if it forces the woman to risk her life after the 20 week window.

[Setton]

And I feel Darkwind is entitled to his own views so yea we disagree here

Of course he's entitled to them. He just shouldn't make things up to support them and relay them to others knowing they are false.

[Beckys_Mom]

Let's cut through the bull...

Abortion at 21 weeks, is no crueler than dying outside the womb as 22 weeks.

As It happened to me recently..I can safely say.. having to see my little ones face.. it is jammed into my mind and that made my pain a lot worse

[Beckys_Mom]

Of course he's entitled to them. He just shouldn't make things up to support them and relay them to others knowing they are false.

Look if you feel Darkwind has - made things up- then sort it out with him.. personally I dont think he made anything up.. but seriously please for the love of dunkin donuts sort it out with Darkwind... I am sure he will tell you all

[Mr Walker]

Name a single atheist who has bombed an abortion clinic!

DUH! Really what has that to do with the point i made? It is an emotive argument. A point which is only highlighted by the use of colour and large font.

Hitler?

Stalin?

Many athiest leaders banned and punished abortions on practical reasons related to power and prejudice.

Until the 1970s abortions were illegal pretty well anywhere in the world, under both religious and athiestic regimes and democracies.

China may have been one exception. I am not sure when they began their policy of state sanctioned /enforced abortions to limit population growth. But in the entire western world only two countries are maintaining replacement fertility. So abortion as population control is no longer a responsible policy for the west. For most of human history abortions have been difficult and dangerous; but more than this, for most of human history, woman's fertility has not been under their control, or seen as their right to control.

That is connected both to the role of women in past societies, but also the horrendous death rates of women and children in childbirth and early infancy. In the past, abortion was very much against the interests of most families, societies and nations . One of the main aims of all of these was to maximise populations and maintain population growth. This cycle is coming around again as world fertility drops, and many countries face rapidly declining and aging populations. Its not at all just about religious beliefs.

Edited March 9, 2011 by Mr Walker

[Fluffybunny]

As It happened to me recently..I can safely say.. having to see my little ones face.. it is jammed into my mind and that made my pain a lot worse

I am so sorry to hear that. It is a nightmarish event; my wife and I had a similar event, it was a spontaneous abortion and because the ER was so backed up my wife and I were left alone and suddenly the baby started to come out, so I ended up delivering the baby, but it was already too late. The image of that little body still haunts and saddens me. What a nightmare.

[Beckys_Mom]

I am so sorry to hear that. It is a nightmarish event; my wife and I had a similar event, it was a spontaneous abortion and because the ER was so backed up my wife and I were left alone and suddenly the baby started to come out, so I ended up delivering the baby, but it was already too late. The image of that little body still haunts and saddens me. What a nightmare.

I know how you feel...that image will never leave you or your poor wife... I sometimes now still see my little girls face..and yea I cry...but sigh...it was disturbing..I couldnt allow my husband to watch... he got upset I didnt call him when it was going on...but I just couldnt allow him to witness that....I still sometimes wish it was all a bad dream.. It hurt more having to tell an over excited little 5 yr old that there is no more little sister... to think she used to talk away to my big bump...making her wee plans.... that was freaking hard...

I guess we do not understand how bad it really feels until we experience it... My daughter was cremated in Dec 2010

[+Sherapy]

I am so sorry to hear that. It is a nightmarish event; my wife and I had a similar event, it was a spontaneous abortion and because the ER was so backed up my wife and I were left alone and suddenly the baby started to come out, so I ended up delivering the baby, but it was already too late. The image of that little body still haunts and saddens me. What a nightmare.

Geez FB, you have sure had your share of sad things.I am so sorry to hear this happened to you and your wife..

I know how you feel...that image will never leave you or your poor wife... I sometimes now still see my little girls face..and yea I cry...but sigh...it was disturbing..I couldnt allow my husband to watch... he got upset I didnt call him when it was going on...but I just couldnt allow him to witness that....I still sometimes wish it was all a bad dream.. It hurt more having to tell an over excited little 5 yr old that there is no more little sister... to think she used to talk away to my big bump...making her wee plans.... that was freaking hard...

I guess we do not understand how bad it really feels until we experience it... My daughter was cremated in Dec 2010

Gosh :cry:

[Beckys_Mom]

Geez FB, you have sure had your share of sad things.I am so sorry to hear this happened to you and your wife..

Gosh :cry:

Tis ok sis... I guessthese things happen even to the best of us.....

[Setton]

Look if you feel Darkwind has - made things up- then sort it out with him.. personally I dont think he made anything up.. but seriously please for the love of dunkin donuts sort it out with Darkwind... I am sure he will tell you all

Fair enough. To be honest, I was kind of hoping he'd answer in this thread. No luck there so I'll try a PM instead. Thanks for the advice. Not really sure how I got dragged into an argument with you when I've nothing against you but there we go.

[FlyingAngel]

dying by nature is still better than dying by the hands of humans.

actually, it's the pain of the loss that teach you how to cherish life

[Beckys_Mom]

dying by nature is still better than dying by the hands of humans.

actually, it's the pain of the loss that teach you how to cherish life

That doesnt exactly make me feel any better about my own loss......

[Setton]

dying by nature is still better than dying by the hands of humans.

Sorry but how do you come to that conclusion? If dying by nature means unbearable pain and dying at the hands of humans means a quick and painless death, how is nature better?

[FlyingAngel]

That doesnt exactly make me feel any better about my own loss......

No it doesn't, but it will teach you how to cherish life and love everyone around you, it will let you know how it is like to kill a baby.

Normally, those who abort are those who got unwanted child due to lack of knowledge (non safe sex, etc...). Take the responsible and face the consequence. It's not the baby's fault. Don't abuse the reproduction system. It's also the falt of the society/family for not capable of welcoming a new life.

Sorry but how do you come to that conclusion? If dying by nature means unbearable pain and dying at the hands of humans means a quick and painless death, how is nature better?

Baby is still at the stage of animal ie all the primordial instinct will overtake it. The survival instinct will tell it to fight and struggle to live instead of accepting death.

Those who accept a fast, painless death are usually those who gave up on life or has nothing more to learn in life. Lots of people who got cancer accept to live with the pain instead of shoot themself instantly die for the same reason.

[FlyingAngel]

That doesnt exactly make me feel any better about my own loss......

No it doesn't, but it will teach you how to cherish life and love everyone around you, it will let you know how it is like to kill a baby.

Normally, those who abort are those who got unwanted child due to lack of knowledge (non safe sex, etc...). Take the responsible and face the consequence. It's not the baby's fault. Don't abuse the reproduction system. It's also the falt of the society/family for not capable of welcoming a new life.

Sorry but how do you come to that conclusion? If dying by nature means unbearable pain and dying at the hands of humans means a quick and painless death, how is nature better?

Baby is still at the stage of animal ie all the primordial instinct will overtake it. The survival instinct will tell it to fight and struggle to live instead of accepting death.

Those who accept a fast, painless death are usually those who gave up on life or has nothing more to learn in life. Lots of people who got cancer accept to live with the pain instead of shoot themself instantly die for the same reason.

[Beckys_Mom]

No it doesn't, but it will teach you how to cherish life and love everyone around you, it will let you know how it is like to kill a baby.

I already had a lot of love for my own family long before this ever happened.. and and let me know how it is like to kill a baby??? what??

[Rlyeh]

dying by nature is still better than dying by the hands of humans.

actually, it's the pain of the loss that teach you how to cherish life

Wasting way from cancer is better than euthanasia? Wow.

[eqgumby]

As It happened to me recently..I can safely say.. having to see my little ones face.. it is jammed into my mind and that made my pain a lot worse

If you deliver a baby at 20 weeks, you are not required to look at it, hold it, touch it. If you have an abortion at 20 weeks, you aren't required too look at it either. What's the difference? An "abortion" at 20 weeks generally involves medication that caused contractions, and causes the woman to "deliver" the pre-term fetus.

So what's the difference? One is called an "abortion", the other is called a miscarriage.

This isn't to be cruel, it's just attempting to apply logic.

[Beckys_Mom]

If you deliver a baby at 20 weeks, you are not required to look at it, hold it, touch it. If you have an abortion at 20 weeks, you aren't required too look at it either. What's the difference? An "abortion" at 20 weeks generally involves medication that caused contractions, and causes the woman to "deliver" the pre-term fetus.

So what's the difference? One is called an "abortion", the other is called a miscarriage.

This isn't to be cruel, it's just attempting to apply logic.

What I went through was a late misscarriage.I wanted to have her so badly. My daughter was fine in the scans...it wasnt long to go before the big day ( a matter of weeks) - ..then suddenly she died inside of me ...so went through a disturbing time...I didnt want that to happen....and it did... I too was not required to look at her...but told I could if I wanted... Part of me panicked, with all sorts rushing throug my head.. then I caught a glimpse of her ...as they carried her out of the room.. that made me worse just seeing her little body and face... knowing I could not hold her...wishing it was just some nightmare...

An abortion on the other hand differs for many - some women just descide to abort for various reasons..like they no longer want to have the child ect.. .

This isn't to be cruel, it's just attempting to apply logic.

I know you were not attempting to be cruel...I too never could get my head around it... until the day it happened to me.. then I understood

So to sum up - Misscarriage ( late) - is when the child dies inside the mother and the mother doesnt want it to go that way...

Abortion ( late) the mother had decided to rid the child for reasons IE - she no longer felt she could be a mother...

But the OP seems that the mother did want the child but knew the child would not survive... wanted to abort to get it over with... I understand her position.. When I was told my child was no longer alive..I said - please let me get this over with...

Edited March 10, 2011 by Beckys_Mom

[Setton]

No it doesn't, but it will teach you how to cherish life and love everyone around you, it will let you know how it is like to kill a baby.

Normally, those who abort are those who got unwanted child due to lack of knowledge (non safe sex, etc...). Take the responsible and face the consequence. It's not the baby's fault. Don't abuse the reproduction system. It's also the falt of the society/family for not capable of welcoming a new life.

Baby is still at the stage of animal ie all the primordial instinct will overtake it. The survival instinct will tell it to fight and struggle to live instead of accepting death.

Those who accept a fast, painless death are usually those who gave up on life or has nothing more to learn in life. Lots of people who got cancer accept to live with the pain instead of shoot themself instantly die for the same reason.

Do some reading before you talk about people! If you did, you would know that the baby in this case was wanted, but they knew it would be born early, be unable to breathe and die in pain. Taking responsibility doesn't come into this question.

Exactly. If given the chance, the baby will fight to survive. Usually causing it more distress and pain. If the child has no chance of survival, why make it go through this?

The comparison to cancer is meaningless. A person with cancer might choose to live with the pain because they can still have some quality of life and feel it's worth suffering the pain for. A child who is going to die minutes after birth has no such opportunity. They would have to suffer the pain for nothing. No life, no emotions, no experiences. They would just be born to die.

[Beckys_Mom]

Do some reading before you talk about people! If you did, you would know that the baby in this case was wanted, but they knew it would be born early, be unable to breathe and die in pain. Taking responsibility doesn't come into this question.

Good advice there

[Stellar]

Good law, I don't think so.

Well you certainly have a right to that opinion.

I find it just as ridiculous to avoid passing a law simply because it may be related to someone's religion.