A question for atheist

[Beckys_Mom]

Thank you Becky, coming from you that is quite a compliment.

Thank you... the trick I try and use more is - looking at BOTH ends... not just one

How many do you know can do that?... it is really simple to do...but many cannot do it... too stubborn lol

[mklsgl]

Ah so Yahweh is the one true God, you see, this is why no matter how hard to study you wont reach my conclusion. It's because you have an in-built bias. You already have a set belief that is going to be difficult to shake, however I studied this with an interest in theology and history and as such I have not gone into it with any personal bias as for me the outcome of the research doesn't shake any core belief in myself. The Jewish faith was polytheistic and there's enough evidence to not deny this, however the sect that existed after they left Egypt were Yahweh, Ba'al and Asherah.

The video even quotes bits of the Torah and Bible that show the polytheistic nature such as Exodus 18:13 "Now I know that Yahweh is greater than all other Gods" or Exodus 15:11 "Who is like you among Gods, Yahweh!". In fact 'Yahweh Sabaoth' means 'God of armies'. We even have statues from 1000 BCE That shows a tower of four Gods and Yahweh is the second from bottom, in fact in no significant place whatsoever. What about "You shall have no Gods before me"? Even Josiah still believed in other Gods but accepted Yahweh as the greatest.

Also, you realise that the worship of Gods in polytheism was based on area, right? If someone lived in one location they would focus of Asherah, Ba'al, Yahweh, etc... This is shown in Pslam 137:4 "How can we sing the songs of Yahweh while in a foreign land?" - This was after they were exiled by the Babylonians. The cult of Yahweh blamed their lack of devotion to Yahweh for their shortcomings and their attack by Babylon but then the 'second Isaiah' came and he added to the original Isaiah to change the religion instead of let it die out (as it surely would) and that ended with verses such as Isaiah 44:6 "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no other God".

Another author came along and started adding bits to the Torah to make it seems as if it was always monotheistic (he was always sourced as 'P'). He rewrote exodus to say that the El Shaddai worshiped by Abraham was actually Yahweh. This is how the 'God has many names' concept came about, it was used as a way to explain why Yahweh was not always worshiped. The whole of Leviticus was written (you know, that disgusting pile of human excrement that has condemned so many?). Genesis is rewritten to be monotheistic as well. Isaiah rewrites Marduk's accomplishments and slaps 'Yahweh' on them such as the defeat of the Dragon Tiamat. This was all round 600 BC.

Deny it all you want but there's my proof now where's yours?

That's a declarative statement of superiority.

[Viral]

That's a declarative statement of superiority.

Alternatively it's called 'asking for proof'.

I was considering replying to you but I hit upon three issues:

1) It's a waste of my time

2) You'd just contest it anyway

3) The discussion was already over

Next time you reply, try and contribute something

Edited April 23, 2011 by Viral

[Beckys_Mom]

Alternatively it's called 'asking for proof'.

I was considering replying to you but I hit upon three issues:

1) It's a waste of my time

2) You'd just contest it anyway

3) The discussion was already over

Next time you reply, try and contribute something

No talking to the muppet genius like that young man....

You could have at least ask Mkl what he meant before jumping the gun

[mklsgl]

No talking to the muppet genius like that young man....

You could have at least ask Mkl what he meant before jumping the gun

Thanks, G-Luv.

[Soul Kitchen]

I am not much of an atheist. (somewhat close though) I simply don't dare to think if I am superior to theists. I simply don't.

It is very strange to see that post coming from a person with an avatar such as yours.

"I don't dare to think if I am superior to theists, but I have a blatant anti-christianity avatar."

[ShadowSot]

It is very strange to see that post coming from a person with an avatar such as yours.

"I don't dare to think if I am superior to theists, but I have a blatant anti-christianity avatar."

Keep in mind, theism includes all religions, not just Christianity.

You can also respect the members of a religion, though not the religion itself.

Edited April 23, 2011 by ShadowSot

[Dravenguild]

I do believe in many senses that I am above believers, for several reasons that I have witnessed.

-The first being I am comfortable enough to persevere as a human just being a compassionate person and doing the right thing, without relying or attributing my actions to a higher power, of which I wouldn't be anything without.

We often forget that we ourselves are the driving force behind our actions, good or bad. Many I have encountered that hold belief in a higher power try to place blame on their spiritual liege rather than themselves, one such individual I have had the pleasure to have worked with was a raving alcoholic, said it wasn't his fault. He placed blame on the devil and temptation, looking to god for the answer. Yes it gave him the strength to quit drinking, but really he's traded one dependency for another, as he know feels he is powerless without christ.

Too many times have I seen talent wasted by the mire of organized religion, another younger woman I knew of was a prodigy at piano and is very successful, though she didn't place the ability within herself, again the often heard recitation "I am nothing without god, he is why I am able to play so well".

It really bastardizes the struggles we humans have undergone just in order to exist.

Though I may come off as smug, I will tell you I could care less about your religion or any others, I don't go around acting superior, or patronize someone who hasn't invoked my ire.

I know people need to cling to their beliefs because it helps them, and so long as it isn't detrimental to my goals then it doesn't register on the scope of things.

Though sometimes it is saddening to see how much people do not have faith in their own ability and must rely on an emotional crutch to be a functioning member of our species.

-Another example is more common than you think, the condescending believer, that forces religion and their beliefs down your throat. I have had the misfortune of dealing with these people on a regular basis, claiming I will burn in hell, yadda yadda yadda.

When they claim they are incapable of wrong or evil, I either laugh or start quoting Leviticus, that usually shuts them up.

Christianity has never been a religion of tolerance, history shows us that. If anything has come from it, it's actual good people that are ignorant of the roots and continue to be good for humanity's sake, but the majority resembles nothing of their principles and are usually angry and bigoted.

-Lastly, the blatant disregard for not only the facts but try to enforce their viewpoint on others. American politics is the worst offender in this case, when people care less if the president can do their job than if they believe in religion, specifically judeo-christian.

And stemming from that, the encroachment of religious influences into what is supposed to be a secular establishment due to republicans (Religious republicans, not business republicans, there is a difference)

And then there's the people that try to abolish abortions because of their personal beliefs. Their claim is they don't want their taxes going to fund abortion.

Well I don't want my taxes to go to the war effort, because I see it as a pointless conflict of occupation but I have to pay anyways, so why do these people even get a say? It's not even about them, there are many people in need of the basic programs offered by Planned parenthood besides abortions, yet these religious republicans as well as other vocal minorities want the entire fund cut for planned parenthood for just the abortion aspect.

So for those reasons I feel I am superior,

I am not dependent on an emotional drug

I do not berate others for not believing in my ideas

I observe religion, I may not like it but I am at least tolerant. (Something the offshoots of the three major religious dichotomies no longer observe)

I attribute my actions to myself, and do not place blame elsewhere

I am receptive to new ideas

[Podo]

Personally I think it heavily depends on the person. I know several athiests who definitely look down on religious folk, but I know just as many that don't. Conversely, I know a lot more religious folk who look down upon nonbelievers. It really depends on the individual.

I'm not strictly athiest by my own definition, but I definitely fall into that category by the definitions of others. I don't consider myself superior to those who choose to believe religions in the slightest; everyone's beliefs are equally valid in my mind. I do, however, consider myself far superior to those who use their belief to justify hatred, exclusion, or persecution of others. I do not support killing or other forms of conflict in the name of a god.

I tend to look down on those who hold blind faith, however. That is to say, people who hold on to a religion fervently and vocally despite not having read their own holy text, and while knowing nothing of any other religion. These people, quite frankly, disgust me. I have no issues with people who choose their religion intelligently, however. What this means is when a person chooses their religion after examining several different ones and arriving at theirs because they feel a connection to it, find it the most logical, or some other legitimate reason.

[Dravenguild]

Personally I think it heavily depends on the person. I know several athiests who definitely look down on religious folk, but I know just as many that don't. Conversely, I know a lot more religious folk who look down upon nonbelievers. It really depends on the individual.

I'm not strictly athiest by my own definition, but I definitely fall into that category by the definitions of others. I don't consider myself superior to those who choose to believe religions in the slightest; everyone's beliefs are equally valid in my mind. I do, however, consider myself far superior to those who use their belief to justify hatred, exclusion, or persecution of others. I do not support killing or other forms of conflict in the name of a god.

I tend to look down on those who hold blind faith, however. That is to say, people who hold on to a religion fervently and vocally despite not having read their own holy text, and while knowing nothing of any other religion. These people, quite frankly, disgust me. I have no issues with people who choose their religion intelligently, however. What this means is when a person chooses their religion after examining several different ones and arriving at theirs because they feel a connection to it, find it the most logical, or some other legitimate reason.

That's actually a much better explanation of how I feel, not so long winded an all =P

[Soul Kitchen]

Keep in mind, theism includes all religions, not just Christianity.

You can also respect the members of a religion, though not the religion itself.

I realize that it isn't completely self-contradictory, but you can't deny at least some level of irony there.

[Wyrdlight]

Admittedly you are going by your own experience, but would you believe me if I told you that my belief is not based on fear but on love? I love God for who he is, not because I fear what happens if I didn't do so? Would you believe me or would you think I am lying (either to you or to myself) and that I really am working through a fear-based construct?

Thanks for the answer in any case

~ Regards,

I would argue that one cannont love somthing so immaterial and vague.

Love is a strong emotion, fuelled mostly by chemical and hormonal impusles mixed with instinct and social conditioning, I dont think that an abstract conecept such as a divine creator can bring about such emotions.

You may have strong emotional feelings towards a point of view, you may belive in somthing, you may have faith in a certain out-come or set of rules. But thats not love in my view, thats fear making you want/beleieve things in order to nulify that fear.

If religion is based on love, then why are religious texts littered with references to smiting places, stoneing people to death, waging war on other faiths, being intolerant. I look at religion and the only love i see is the love of control, to shape the lives of those who practice the religion in accordance to the will of those who lead the religious community and write the religious texts.

[Guest]

On the point of the original question.

I do think that those who say that "they do not know", until they have objective proof, are superior to anyone who claims to know based on subjective belief (atheist or believer). A state of expectant unknowing is the only really honest position which I feel tenable. This can only be answered through personal Gnosis. Anyone who has had a personal Gnosis can say that they know their belief is superior to either Atheism or Faith. However even here great care needs to be used in interpreting what the Gnosis actually represents as most people will simply attempt to fit personal experience into their preconceived world view.

An example would be if you claimed to have seen a white light which spoke to you - that seems like a reasonable narrative of a real subjective/objective event. If you then claimed that that white light was God or a representative of God, because your beliefs had primed you to interpret white lights as Divine manifestations - then you are severely overstepping the mark and drawing erroneous conclusions based on the evidence of your own senses. So seeing white lights is only proof of the existence of certain forms of white light which require an objective explanation.

Uncertainty seems the only honest intellectual position when all available evidence is tainted by subjectivity and tradition.

Br Cornelius

[thewatchman7]

as an atheiest, i feel absolutely no feeling of superiority. i was raised in a very christian environment and decided to question what i beleived. upon looking into deeper i found what i belevied to be based on nothing but stories (written by the hand of MAN) and blatant stealing and fusion of other religions. i feel that the beleif in which you cannot see, feel or hear to be lacking for me personally, its empty and unfulfilling. my main two problems with religion is, a) the amount of trouble it produces b)ignorance to other religions.

a) i feel that so many atrocities in history have been chalked up to 'gods will' just look at the crusades. going halfway around the world to kill men, women and children because god said its ok. another point of interest here is i once knew a very devout christian who said if he heard gods voice telling him to kill people, he would. god forbid he ever gets any mental illness.

ahh good old ignorance is next, an above poster, i forget who, stated he 'knows' yahweh to be the one true god. really? really dude? of the countless other religions that exist, your imaginary friend is more valid than anyone elses? and your logic is because more people beleive in yours? im sorry but just because people beleive something doesnt make it so.

[=Jak=]

Do the atheists on this site think that they are superior to believers? No

Also do you think that we are weak and only believe because we are afraid of death and non-existence? NO

In other words to you think we are actually dishonest in the reasons we give about our different spritural paths. No, because logic and reasoning won't work out in FAITH

The more outspoken atheist, seem to think this, but I don't want to fall into the trap (that some atheist seem to fall into to when talking about believers) of stereotyping all atheist in this way. So your input will be welcome, whatever it is.

Peace

Mark

Yes, we feel sorry for those who preaches us, who hopes that they can change us soon or later.

Even place like unexplained mysteries, each one trying to put us in some group. When actually we don't exist in one or don't want one.

We also feel sorry, when someone really fears on blackmail rules of religion books.

We feel sorry for those who try to explain full AI, when we are just a macros of micros.

[=Jak=]

Edited May 18, 2011 by =Jak=

[joshy]

Do the atheists on this site think that they are superior to believers?

Personally no.

Also do you think that we are weak and only believe because we are afraid of death and non-existence?

Again personally I do not, however some people do use religion like that, death bed converts for example.

In other words to you think we are actually dishonest in the reasons we give about our different spritural paths. The more outspoken atheist, seem to think this, but I don't want to fall into the trap (that some atheist seem to fall into to when talking about believers) of stereotyping all atheist in this way.

Some people are dishonest with themselves and others, yet others are not. I take it on a per person basis

So your input will be welcome, whatever it is.

*salutes*

[markdohle]

I think that people are religious due to two things.

One, childhood indoctrination.

Two, a fear and/or inabilty to cope with the idea that that there is no life after death, no diven will, no creator, that we are alone, that we make our own morals etc.

I my experiance "religious" people use thier religion as a "get out of jail free card" to avoid any and all difficult, painful or scary problems that they find in life.

Not sure what to do in a certain situation? read the Bible and find out what X said about it. Dont use your own mind, and will and morals to make a decisions. Use what another person said and thus avoid all respnsibility.

Avoidance and/or shifting responsibility is key as well, if you can say "its Gods will" then you can do anything, endure anything make it somone elses problem.

I see at as a weakness, an inabilty to cope with the fundementals of life in general.

Does that mean I look down on religious people? no.

Do I think I am better? no.

People are people are people, we each deal with life as best we can, for some thats religion and thats fine by me.

I doubt any of us "use our own minds" as such. I think today the religious view takes thinking and is becoming counter cultural while to follow the morals of our culture takes nothing like that at all. All you have to do is go along. Abortions are one instance, though I don't have any simplistic answers in how to deal with issue.

Also faith is more complex than you present, though you try to be fair and I like that. I think some people have a cultural faith, and that is fine as long they don't hit any bumps, then trouble starts. In the future, as the faithful become the minority, I think the tables will turn, believers will become intellectual, while those who don't have faith will sink into a cultural mode of living out their unbelief, they will have no need to defend themselves any longer. I think atheism will continue to become a force that will sweep away the faith of many, yet, there are always those who simply believe, because atheism really makes no sense, at least for them. If everyone believed that God does not exist, or if they believed the opposite, we are still in waiting mode, we simply don't know.

As a Christian, I have my path, I read, study, ponder, look into other beliefs systems and then there is my own experience that also leads me. I don't fear death, nor do I fear oblivion, in fact at times that can be a quite pleasant prospect. No an afterlife means that we are responsible for our lives and we will have to face what we become. I think the NDE brings that up very clearly in the life review.

Peace

Mark

[Alzimba]

That's actually a much better explanation of how I feel, not so long winded an all =P

The essense of being good or bad is determined by genetic and enviromental factors. One can be better good or evil gradually over veryy long period of times if his self-awareness and logic challenges his essense, ego and emotions. Being atheist or being religious are two seperate things from being good. Good is the essence of your connection and perception of equality to the rest of the universe. Atheism and religion are beliefs. Being religious does not mean you are good nor does being athiesm give you a higher rank of perception over others.You can be both good and evil in both beliefs. For example ,Pol Pot and Stalin were both atheists who had no disregard for human life. Ayotallah Kohmeini and Medieval Christianity were both relgious people who also had total disregard for certain genre of people. It doesnt matter ,being good is an essence that some people have while some people do not develop. Self awareness and socialization is one to become good.

[Spock_the_Future]

Do the atheists on this site think that they are superior to believers? Also do you think that we are weak and only believe because we are afraid of death and non-existence? In other words to you think we are actually dishonest in the reasons we give about our different spritural paths. The more outspoken atheist, seem to think this, but I don't want to fall into the trap (that some atheist seem to fall into to when talking about believers) of stereotyping all atheist in this way. So your input will be welcome, whatever it is.

Peace

Mark

We are not "superior", Sorry I didn't see all the replies and maybe the same has already been quoted and I am also sure that it would have gotten to written directives (Whatever books Bible or otherwise ).

Science Yeah maybe but then I don't tend to attribute everything to it (My main contention with aqua maybe), In an Atheist kind of way all I can say is that you are free to believe whatever you choose to get to your Target In Life. Target is all you.

My reason is Do you need GOD to get there or Hard Work ? I'll ask you instead, What should we believe in ? GOD or myself ?

Spock

[Spock_the_Future]

Edit: Unintended repost. I clicked post only once. Coders please check the Bug.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Spock_the_Future

[Arbenol]

I'm not sure that 'superior' is the right word to use. But they definitely think they know better.

It's really a question for everyone:

Do ........ think they are superior to ........?

Insert atheist, christian, muslim, jew, buddhist, scientologist etc...........

[markdohle]

I'm not sure that 'superior' is the right word to use. But they definitely think they know better.

It's really a question for everyone:

Do ........ think they are superior to ........?

Insert atheist, christian, muslim, jew, buddhist, scientologist etc...........

Yes it is, I think most of us (I do) suffer from personal infallibility.....it is diffiuclt to break loose from that and to listen....a life long endeavor, at least for me.

Peace

mark