Roswell was Soviet plot to create US panic

[Myles]

There, i think, we have an example of the phenomenon I've observed previously; the idea that anything, however, preposterous, if it has a terrrestrial origin, has to be more plausible than anything involving ExtraTerrestrials. So Josef Stalin cooperating with Joseph Mengele to produce genetically engineered mutants, putting them in a secret plane, developed at no doubt not inconsiderable expense from German technology, and which would outclass anything else in the world by a huge margin in terms of range and performance, and then throwing away this great technological lead you've acquired, by provoking a war with the only nuclear armed power in the world (when he hadn't yet developed nukes of his own), by flying it into their airspace and crashing it (and thus giving the US your ultra-secret aircraft); all that is more believeable than anything involving extraterrestrials?

Really?

Yes.

[psyche101]

How many times have I warned skeptics to beware of certain websites?

How many times have you been asked to read posts and counter debates with debate as opposed to an appeal to authority?

You are such a drama Queen. I notice you did not take each link and prove it wrong, because you cannot. You can just make grandiose claims.

Project Mogul was not classified at all. In fact, specifices of its experiements were made public, which goes to show that Project Mogul is not what skeptics think it is, and it shows just how effectively the Air Force was able to duped those who were unaware of what Project Mogul really was, and it had nothing to do with spying n the Soviet Union.

It was known that fallout would be the answer to detecting the Soviet's first nuke blast, and as it was, a modified B-29 detected the Soviet's first blast through air samples. Remember, I posted historical facts that backed my claim.

Yes Project MOGUL was indeed classified, the balloons were not. You should look further back into history, rather than what simply supports you here and now, then you would know that MOGUL was the forerunner for other programs - Skyhook, and Moby Dick. The previous espionage programs. You would also know how Project Moby Dick upset the Russians. You would also know that Dr. Maurice Ewing had earlier researched the deep sound channel in the oceans and theorized that a similar sound channel existed in the upper atmosphere and that is the premise that MOGUL operated upon. (ALTERNATIVE METHOD - look it up) And you would now that MOGUL's primary purpose was long-distance detection of sound waves generated by Soviet atomic bomb tests. As you should know, Russia had not as yet set off their bomb, it seems to me a prudent measure to have as many detection methods available ia=s is possible given the situation.

Because one project was successful, and the other not, does not mean the unsuccessful project never existed, or that you can change the details of it's existence. You have not backed any claim, you have added superfluous information to convolute the subject matter, one of your dishonest tactics.

[psyche101]

[/i]

So, Project Mogul was so secret thta even Charles Moore didn't know of the name of Mogul. Just reminding you that came from your own link. Now, for the rest of the story. Whose name appears as Head of Project Mogul. You can go through this unclassified letter that mentions who is head of Project Mogul.by name. You guessed it, the name as head of Project Mogul is none other than Charles Moore.

I have repeatedly warned you that the Air Force was misleading the public all along, but fortunately, the polls show that the majority of Americans didn't believe the Air Force, and rightly so.

And I have repeatedly asked you to produce one of my unclassified letters so that you can demonstrate how a private communique` is public domain. You refuse to answer this because you cannot, and it demonstrates the validity of your straw man here. What you have is a letter that someone got a hold of way after the fact, which proves nothing. Very hypocritical of you to consistently avoid the challenge I set for you to prove your point, when you keeping asking Boon to keep doing his math over and again in the BE thread. How about we see some effort from you, and not your constant appeal to authority?

So post the letter I wrote and prove me wrong or cease and desist your ranting and raving would you.

I have repeatedly warned you that I will use logic and reasoning against the nonsense you post.

Edited June 6, 2011 by psyche101

[psyche101]

[/i]

I am right again, and I have already told you that Mogul balloons were not classified at all, and in fact, were nothing more than unclassified research balloons with questionnaries attached for ordinary civilians with no secuity clearances to add their own data input.

This may be of some help, God knows helping you is beyond me. Perhaps the English Dictionary may assist you. Perhaps.

proj·ect (prjkt, -kt)

n.

1. A plan or proposal; a scheme. See Synonyms at plan.

2. An undertaking requiring concerted effort: a community cleanup project; a government-funded irrigation project.

3. An extensive task undertaken by a student or group of students to apply, illustrate, or supplement classroom lessons.

4. A housing project.

bal·loon (b-ln)

n.

1.

a. A flexible bag designed to be inflated with hot air or with a gas, such as helium, that is lighter than the surrounding air, causing it to rise and float in the atmosphere.

b. Such a bag with sufficient capacity to lift and transport a suspended gondola or other load.

c. Such a bag shaped like a figure or object when inflated; an inflatable.

2. A usually round or oblong inflatable rubber bag used as a toy.

3. Medicine A sac that is inserted into a body cavity or tube and distended with air or gas for therapeutic purposes, such as angioplasty.

4. A rounded or irregularly shaped outline containing the words that a character in a cartoon is represented to be saying.

See how a balloon is a different thing from a project? Same thing here, this is where you continuously fall down.

Edited June 6, 2011 by psyche101

[psyche101]

[/i]

We didn't need such acoustical devices to detect the Soviet's nuke blast. We did it by air samples.

In 1945? 46?

And no, it turned out we did not need all of the projects running, only one was successful, but that is how you back yourself up isn't it? One does not leave something as important as defending the country against possible atomic threats does one? One has back up plans, doesn't one?

Just because a plane finally made the detection that the US military were listening to for years, does not mean all other projects devoted to listening did not exist.

I have never visited Roswell before, but I will be in Roswell next month and I will take a lot of photos, and after that, I will visit Phoenix again, and take more photos from downtown while facing south.

God help us all. One wonders what you will be like when you return from your personal Mecca. Not too much to say about your own service record there huh? The plot is thickening.

According to those involve in the Roswell incident at Roswell AAF and the sorrounding areas, , and at Wright-Patterson AFB, the Roswell incident did in fact, involved extraterrestrials.

And according to those involved in the Roswell incident and the surrounding area, there were balloons as well. Depends on who you speak to doesn't it.

There are still two cover stories in affect, and they are, the Air Force's 1994 and 1997 Roswell Reports.

No there is not, there is much confusion on your part, and this will persist and may only clarify when you read the reports. Notice the "may" in there.

[psyche101]

[/i]

Take another look. From one of your own links.

Do you ever read anything that you reply to?

How does this

The press release announcing the unusual event was issued by the Commander of the 509th Bomb Group at Roswell Army Air Field, Colonel William Blanchard, who later went on to become a four-star general and Vice Chief of Staff of the United States Air Force.

That the weather balloon story was a coverup has been confirmed by individuals directly involved, including the late General Thomas DuBose who took the telephone call from Washington, D.C., ordering the coverup.

Numerous other credible military and civilian witnesses have testified that the original press release was correct and that the Roswell wreckage was of extraterrestrial origin. One such individual was Major Jesse Marcel, the Intelligence Officer of the 509th Bomb Group and one of the first military officers at the scene.

Adress what you quoted - this

The SAF also directed current Air Force elements to reveal records of the "highest classification and compartmentalization," particularly related to anything of an extraordinary nature

The above bolsters my post, in that this is exactly what happened, and the cover up mentioned by Blanchard above was answered by MOGUL, even though Lost Shamans CIC hypothesis is the more likely conclusion. I hope he gets recognised, and handsomely rewarded for his brilliance and for seeing something where everyone is looking. He outdid both you and I to come up with the best conclusion that falsifies us both, face up to it. You and I were so lost in arguing balloons and flying saucers that the obvious slipped right past us, and it was all in the Twinning memo for everyone to see all along. This is where the ETH is taking the UFO phenomena - backwards and you are leading the charge.

[psyche101]

Air sampling would only have indicated that a test did occur. The acoustical devices would have been used to narrow down where the testing was taking place as well as the size of the blast, etc...

We have a winner!

[psyche101]

There, i think, we have an example of the phenomenon I've observed previously; the idea that anything, however, preposterous, if it has a terrrestrial origin, has to be more plausible than anything involving ExtraTerrestrials. So Josef Stalin cooperating with Joseph Mengele to produce genetically engineered mutants, putting them in a secret plane, developed at no doubt not inconsiderable expense from German technology, and which would outclass anything else in the world by a huge margin in terms of range and performance, and then throwing away this great technological lead you've acquired, by provoking a war with the only nuclear armed power in the world (when he hadn't yet developed nukes of his own), by flying it into their airspace and crashing it (and thus giving the US your ultra-secret aircraft); all that is more believeable than anything involving extraterrestrials?

Really?

Well, the story is every bit as entertaining!

[Carnivorous Entity]

I don't buy this. The USSR spending what would almost certainly be a huge amount of money to find out how to genetically engineer mutants that looked like stereotypical aliens and training them to fly military aircraft? Why? To what end? The article didn't state they were actually supposed to crash, so what the hell did they need a bunch of deformed kids for?

Edited June 6, 2011 by Carnivorous Entity

[Space Commander Travis]

Yes.

Do you want to explain further, or are you just going to complacently say "Yes."? Do you want to explain how you consider genetically engineered mutants and Stalin deliberately provoking with the US and giving them a present of an aircraft that if they really had it, it would have given them an unassilable lead, all that is more plausible, just because no hypothetical ETs are involved?

Or am i wasting my time even bothering to type this, and you're just going to say "Yes" again, if you reply at all?

[Myles]

Do you want to explain further, or are you just going to complacently say "Yes."? Do you want to explain how you consider genetically engineered mutants and Stalin deliberately provoking with the US and giving them a present of an aircraft that if they really had it, it would have given them an unassilable lead, all that is more plausible, just because no hypothetical ETs are involved?

Or am i wasting my time even bothering to type this, and you're just going to say "Yes" again, if you reply at all?

I don't believe this theory of the Russians orchestrating this at all. I just think it is as believable as an alien crash.

[mcrom901]

I just think it is as believable as an alien crash.

what about a space balloon...

[Space Commander Travis]

I don't believe this theory of the Russians orchestrating this at all. I just think it is as believable as an alien crash.

Really, I think ET is much, much more likely.

[Myles]

Really, I think ET is much, much more likely.

But the comparison must include more than just an ET. It must include the whole travel of the ET, the crash, cover-up and all else that is Roswell.

[Space Commander Travis]

But the comparison must include more than just an ET. It must include the whole travel of the ET, the crash, cover-up and all else that is Roswell.

But are any of those intrinsically implausible? No one claims to know where it may have come from (many have guessed, but that's a different thing), so talking about faster than light travel and so on is an irrelevance, and the crash could have been caused by any number of perfectly plausible reasons - bad weather, for instance. By the ocver-up, do you mean at the tinme, or subsequently? Either could quite possibly be accounted for by governmental left-hands-not-knowing-what-right-hands-are-doing, none of it need have been a great conspiracy.

[psyche101]

Really, I think ET is much, much more likely.

Are you just being facetious?

[cassandra5655]

I have lurked for quite a while on this forum. In particular I have researched roswell in great detail. I can safely say that psyche101 simply does not know what he/she is talking about some things when it comes to roswell. I don't know if he/she is a disinfo agent, or just genuinely misinformed. In one thread I recall psyche mentioning that mac brazel said he saw eyelets and pieces of rubber and wood. While this is true, you fail to mention the most critical piece of information, mac was interrigated for several days and mentioned this because he was forced to. The police were right outside the door while mac was basically forced to say this on the radio. If you did any real research you would know his original testimony revealed that he never seen anything before like the material he found. Also, mac was no idiot, he knew what a weather ballon looks like, hell even a monkey can figure out what a balloon looks like. If fact mac had found several ballons on his land before.

The smoking gun for me is the original newspaper article. "RAAF captures flying saucer", do you have any idea what it would take to put that in the paper? People have reputations on the line and back in those days then you would be looked at like a clown for putting something like that in the paper if you couldn't back it up. People would think you were a looney. So you can be damn sure that a high ranking officer like marcel genuinely believed he had a flying saucer on his hands. Jesse Marcel was a high ranking officer, he would know what a balloon looks like, what a V2 rocket looks like, what a horten wing looks like. The material that those vehicles are made of is instantly recognizable. Yet this material was different. So much so in fact that he even took some home to show his wife and kids. Now just think for a moment. That MUST have been some pretty amazing stuff if you are going to take home a bunch of debris home to show your family? There is no question, that Marcel genuinely believed the craft was a flying saucer, so much so, he was willing to put his reputation on the line and report it the the newspaper.

The mogul explanation is preposterous. MOgul is practically the same thing as a weather balloon, the only differece is the measuring device that hangs from the balloon. Both measuring devices are still attached to a balloon. You know the big inflatable part? You know the part that screams balloon? You know the part that a monkey can figure out what it is? The mogul explanation for the roswell crash is quite frankly an insult to the intelligence of roswell researchers. I mean just stop and think for a moment. The very idea that multiple high ranking officials confused a giant inflatable balloon with a flying saucer??? Oh and that Jesse Marcel took pieces of the balloon home to show his family??? Hahahahahaaaa.

Oh and we are told the bodies were supposedly the 6+ foot plastic dummies. Derp derp derp, oh whats that? Thats everybody's IQ dropping a few points. How the hell can you confuse a 6foot plastic dummy for a small 4foot child size creature with an oversize head? Not to mention the decomposition/smell that was reportedly involved with the cadavers.

Here's the kicker though, imagine the sight of hundreds of men, shoulder to shoulder, combing through a field for all pieces of evidence they can find. Now imagine this being carried out for weeks. They basically vaccumed that place up. Don't you get it? Whatever crashed there was far more important than some old dumb project mogul balloon. I mean really, just stop for a moment and picture this in your mind. Hundreds of men, shoulder to shoulder on their hands and knees picking through the grass for any possible crash debris they can find. How often does this happen? It doesn't take a genius to figure out that whatever crashed there was pretty exotic. Exotic enough for every single last piece to be recovered at all costs. I even recall that people who took crash debris as "souvanieurs" were later contacted and forced to hand over the material.

The recent theory that roswell was the result of mendele/stalin is quiet frankly, a joke. If people did any research you would know that soviets didn't have even close the technology to make this happen. Not even close. The structure of DNA wasn't even discovered until 1953, making genetic engineering impossible. Megele had strong anti-communist beliefs and would basically have nothing to do with stalin. Quoted by Accipiter, "Yeah, because the Russians had all of those super jet airplanes that could be flown by remote control 10,000 kilometers across entire oceans in 1947. Too bad that they immediately forgot how to make them for the Korean War and other such times, though." Not to mention flying over 300 miles inland undetected in radar thick territory. In other words, the plane would have been intercepted and shot down. Simply put, if the soviets had the capability to do this, in 1947, I wouldn't be speaking english right now, I would be speaking Russian, if you know what I mean.

Lets for a moment suspend disbelief and ask ourselves this question. Why would mendele/stalin team up and invest time/money into a stunt like this a full 2 years after the war? Apparantly stalin wanted to "scare" the americans akin to "war of the worlds" radio show? To me this sounds stupid, and heres why. The U.S. air force would be able to tell immediately if the craft was of human manufacture. The soviets don't have access to exotic materials or technology, so when the craft is discovered, it will look like any ordinary plane crash, bent steel, wire, glass, you know... common debris. It most definitely wouldn't look like the debris from an extraterrestrial craft. The deformed bodies are another stupid idea, even if the exterior of the bodies were deformed in order to look like aliens, the internal organs would be a dead giveaway. In other words, as soon as the autopsy is carried out on the bodies, they will be confirmed human from the identical organs and bone structure. Not to mention DNA composition.

So, to me if the soviets were going to pull a stunt like this, it would make more sense to crash the craft near a populated area, like a city, if they were trying to scare people. Why crash in the middle of the desert near an army base? An army base has people who know what crash debris looks like. An army base has a hospital that perform autopsies. An army base will know almost immediately that this is some sort of sick prank. Seems like a giant waste of time for stalin/mendele doesn't it??? It doesn't just sound like a waste of time, it sounds completely rediculous. Far, far, far more outlandish than the thought of a legitimate alien craft crash landing along with extraterrestrial bodies.

The truth is, in my opinion, that this whole stalin/mendele theory was made-up and perpetrated by the author Annie Jacobson to create a stir in the ufo community as a marketing tactic to promote her new book. It's not like it is the meat and potatoes of her book either, she briefly mentions it near the end of her book. It's like something that she just tacked on, last minute. If the story was real, don't you think she would have created an entire book dedicated to it? And of coarse her source is anonymous... I saw that coming from a mile away. It just screams made up. In my opinion, if you are going to propose such a radical theory, you need actual legitimate sources for your information. It isn't just good journalism practice, it's common sense.

[booNyzarC]

Welcome to UM cassandra. I searched very hard through your post to find something that I could agree with. Here it is:

--

The recent theory that roswell was the result of mendele/stalin is quiet frankly, a joke.

--

The rest... well, hopefully you'll actually find a way to substantiate some of it at some point but I won't hold my breath. Until then, welcome to UM and I look forward to your future participation.

Cheers.

[psyche101]

I have lurked for quite a while on this forum. In particular I have researched roswell in great detail. I can safely say that psyche101 simply does not know what he/she is talking about some things when it comes to roswell.

Hello Cassandra

I am sorry about your manners. Way to set the tone there.

It seems you have not done as much research as you thought, lets delve a little deeper shall we. I must say I am holding a similar opinion of yourself, but in the interest of our first conversation, I shall refrain from commenting further right now.

I don't know if he/she is a disinfo agent, or just genuinely misinformed. In one thread I recall psyche mentioning that mac brazel said he saw eyelets and pieces of rubber and wood. While this is true, you fail to mention the most critical piece of information, mac was interrigated for several days and mentioned this because he was forced to. The police were right outside the door while mac was basically forced to say this on the radio. If you did any real research you would know his original testimony revealed that he never seen anything before like the material he found. Also, mac was no idiot, he knew what a weather ballon looks like, hell even a monkey can figure out what a balloon looks like. If fact mac had found several ballons on his land before.

Yes that is it, I am on the US Government payroll as an Australian citizen. Gee, not much gets past you does it! I shall have to stay on my toes And you will notice under my Avatar that I have boy bits. Been here for years you say? You never noticed this?

Ridiculous conjecture. This "critical information" that you allude to is hearsay, and few agree on a time frame. We have testimony that reaches from a few hours to days. Forced to say this on the radio? What on earth are you talking about? Brazel said this when interviewed by the Roswell Daily Chronicle on July 9, 1947. No Police were outside the door, military escorted him to the premises some say, and freedom of speech was on his side with witnesses. Why would Police being doing a job that as you described would be carried out by military personel anyway?

Mac knew what a weather balloon looked like, but could not possibly be familiar with MOGUL components, if he did indeed see any. One member you have missed input from altogether is Lost Shaman, which makes me think you have not been perusing the forum for a long time at all, you just read this thread, didn't you. In fact I would not be surprised to find that you were "put up to this". If you had been following the Roswell conversation on here, you would know that most sensible people in here give the CIC hypothesis by Lost Shaman much possibility as opposed to the more popular theories of MOGUL and ET.

The smoking gun for me is the original newspaper article. "RAAF captures flying saucer", do you have any idea what it would take to put that in the paper? People have reputations on the line and back in those days then you would be looked at like a clown for putting something like that in the paper if you couldn't back it up. People would think you were a looney. So you can be damn sure that a high ranking officer like marcel genuinely believed he had a flying saucer on his hands. Jesse Marcel was a high ranking officer, he would know what a balloon looks like, what a V2 rocket looks like, what a horten wing looks like. The material that those vehicles are made of is instantly recognizable. Yet this material was different. So much so in fact that he even took some home to show his wife and kids. Now just think for a moment. That MUST have been some pretty amazing stuff if you are going to take home a bunch of debris home to show your family? There is no question, that Marcel genuinely believed the craft was a flying saucer, so much so, he was willing to put his reputation on the line and report it the the newspaper.

It would be about as hard to put in the paper as this headline:

And do you honestly think a reporter is going to be concerned about the truthfulness of his headline where sales are concerned? Well at least I can see you are not a disinformation agent or you would not say something so silly, just not very realistic.

The material that Marcel took home is indeed interesting. Did you know that Jesse Marcel Senior and Jesse Marcel Jr. could not agree on what it looked like? Marcel Snr. went to his grave disagreeing with his son over the alleged beams. One says they were I beams, the other says square beams. They never did agree. That does not sound like the debris was all that important of they could not agree on an obvious detail, wouldn't you say? And Mrs. Brazel thought the debris was so interesting that she swept it off the back porch as rubbish! I know my wife can be a clean nut when she puts her mind to it, but she would not sweep a Flying Saucer of the back porch. In fact the material may still be there as a concrete slab was poured right there a short time later. Nobody seems to think it is worth ripping up for a look see though. His daughter Betty Brazel also said what she saw looked like a balloon which had burst.

Marcel also said alot of things that were not true. Flying hours, service, and academic accomplishments all form part of his embellishments. Kevin Randle has a story about these embellishments at his blog. If he was truthful to the very end, why did he cite these embellishments?

The mogul explanation is preposterous. MOgul is practically the same thing as a weather balloon, the only differece is the measuring device that hangs from the balloon. Both measuring devices are still attached to a balloon. You know the big inflatable part? You know the part that screams balloon? You know the part that a monkey can figure out what it is? The mogul explanation for the roswell crash is quite frankly an insult to the intelligence of roswell researchers. I mean just stop and think for a moment. The very idea that multiple high ranking officials confused a giant inflatable balloon with a flying saucer??? Oh and that Jesse Marcel took pieces of the balloon home to show his family??? Hahahahahaaaa.

What about this officer? Ever heard of Irving Newton?

I told them that this was a balloon and a RAWIN. I believed this because I had seen many of these before. They were normally launched by a special crew and followed by a ground radar unit. They provided a higher altitude winds aloft. We did not use them at Fort Worth. However, I was familiar with them because we used them and their products on various projects in which I was involved. These were used mostly on special projects and overseas. The balloon was made out of a rubber type expandable material and when launched was about six to eight feet across. When the balloons got to altitude they expanded to twenty feet or more. the target was used for radar reflections and I believe each leg of the target was approximately 48 inches. It resembled a child's Jack (like a child's ball and jacks set) with a metallic material between the legs. The legs were made of material appearing to be like balsa wood kite sticks but much tougher.

While I was examining the debris, Major Marcel was picking up pieces of the target sticks and trying to convince me that some notations on the sticks were alien writings. There were figures on the sticks lavender or pink in color, appeared to be weather faded markings with no rhyme or reason. He did not convince me these were alien writings.

I was convinced at the time that this was a balloon with a RAWIN target and remain convinced.

I remember hearing the General tell someone to cancel the flight, the flight to Wright Patterson.

Are you saying Irving Newton was less intelligent than a Monkey? He was not the only "official" to say the Alien story is bonkers. You have only considered the testimony that agrees with your conclusion.

The MOGUL explanation is a good one - to the folks that can wrap their heads around it anyway. I understand it might be a little too much for you at face value. It does not stand up when comparing it with Lost Shamans CIC hypothesis, but it is a darn deal more sensible than ET ranting. Is this your MOGUL argument? Marcel would have know what it was? Did you know Marcel was intelligence at Roswell base? Considering this nugget of information, I would hope that you might have a good look at the BE thread, and Lost Shamans Intel Ops hypothesis.

Do you know why MOGUL falls down? Ask nice and I will tell you a real reason why MOGUL has a big hole in it. Not silly ranting about who would know what this and that looked like. Real information.

Oh and we are told the bodies were supposedly the 6+ foot plastic dummies. Derp derp derp, oh whats that? Thats everybody's IQ dropping a few points. How the hell can you confuse a 6foot plastic dummy for a small 4foot child size creature with an oversize head? Not to mention the decomposition/smell that was reportedly involved with the cadavers.

Derp derp?

Dummies without arms, legs or heads are much less than 6 foot. And you are refusing a medical explanation for a tale of Aliens? Perhaps derp derp might be the best thing to say here? Memory is indeed altered by trauma, do you dispute that? And the smell claim come from Glenn Dennis does it not? Should I start laughing right now?

You do know about the major air crashes at the base which this explanation is based on don't you? Medically the theory is sound, I would love to see your paper refuting it. Whilst you are at it, can you give me a photo of an Alien for comparison? Or are you simply preferring one claim over another? Surely not, as that would be in effect, cherry picking, wouldn't it now.

Here's the kicker though, imagine the sight of hundreds of men, shoulder to shoulder, combing through a field for all pieces of evidence they can find. Now imagine this being carried out for weeks. They basically vaccumed that place up. Don't you get it? Whatever crashed there was far more important than some old dumb project mogul balloon. I mean really, just stop for a moment and picture this in your mind. Hundreds of men, shoulder to shoulder on their hands and knees picking through the grass for any possible crash debris they can find. How often does this happen? It doesn't take a genius to figure out that whatever crashed there was pretty exotic. Exotic enough for every single last piece to be recovered at all costs. I even recall that people who took crash debris as "souvanieurs" were later contacted and forced to hand over the material.

Did these military men not have to disband and send away civillians - as the story goes? I would like to see you back that tale of having to return crash debris with a reputable link. People were there before the military arrived. How did they know who these people were that came and went? Psyops? The Men who stare at Goats? Dont tell me - CCTV on the crashed craft was still operational. Am I getting warm yet?

Hundreds of men hey! Must have been nobody left at WPAFB! Any proof of this claim, or just a story you heard somewhere?

Regardless, the debris field is not intrinsic evidence to the end result. For all we know, it may not so much as have existed. Can you show me a picture of it? All these civillians, press, military, surely you can back your claim of the debris field?

The recent theory that roswell was the result of mendele/stalin is quiet frankly, a joke. If people did any research you would know that soviets didn't have even close the technology to make this happen. Not even close. The structure of DNA wasn't even discovered until 1953, making genetic engineering impossible. Megele had strong anti-communist beliefs and would basically have nothing to do with stalin. Quoted by Accipiter, "Yeah, because the Russians had all of those super jet airplanes that could be flown by remote control 10,000 kilometers across entire oceans in 1947. Too bad that they immediately forgot how to make them for the Korean War and other such times, though." Not to mention flying over 300 miles inland undetected in radar thick territory. In other words, the plane would have been intercepted and shot down. Simply put, if the soviets had the capability to do this, in 1947, I wouldn't be speaking english right now, I would be speaking Russian, if you know what I mean.

Lets for a moment suspend disbelief and ask ourselves this question. Why would mendele/stalin team up and invest time/money into a stunt like this a full 2 years after the war? Apparantly stalin wanted to "scare" the americans akin to "war of the worlds" radio show? To me this sounds stupid, and heres why. The U.S. air force would be able to tell immediately if the craft was of human manufacture. The soviets don't have access to exotic materials or technology, so when the craft is discovered, it will look like any ordinary plane crash, bent steel, wire, glass, you know... common debris. It most definitely wouldn't look like the debris from an extraterrestrial craft. The deformed bodies are another stupid idea, even if the exterior of the bodies were deformed in order to look like aliens, the internal organs would be a dead giveaway. In other words, as soon as the autopsy is carried out on the bodies, they will be confirmed human from the identical organs and bone structure. Not to mention DNA composition.

So, to me if the soviets were going to pull a stunt like this, it would make more sense to crash the craft near a populated area, like a city, if they were trying to scare people. Why crash in the middle of the desert near an army base? An army base has people who know what crash debris looks like. An army base has a hospital that perform autopsies. An army base will know almost immediately that this is some sort of sick prank. Seems like a giant waste of time for stalin/mendele doesn't it??? It doesn't just sound like a waste of time, it sounds completely rediculous. Far, far, far more outlandish than the thought of a legitimate alien craft crash landing along with extraterrestrial bodies.

The truth is, in my opinion, that this whole stalin/mendele theory was made-up and perpetrated by the author Annie Jacobson to create a stir in the ufo community as a marketing tactic to promote her new book. It's not like it is the meat and potatoes of her book either, she briefly mentions it near the end of her book. It's like something that she just tacked on, last minute. If the story was real, don't you think she would have created an entire book dedicated to it? And of coarse her source is anonymous... I saw that coming from a mile away. It just screams made up. In my opinion, if you are going to propose such a radical theory, you need actual legitimate sources for your information. It isn't just good journalism practice, it's common sense.

I take it you missed the very first post, and how everyone pretty much agreed from there? It bears repeating, it said:

Men come from Mars and women are from Venus, but surely this story comes from Uranus ?

( Kudos Habitat)

Your post is getting a bit ridiculous, every response on here is that the Russian connection seems very unlikely. Can you tell me who has supported the notion? Albeit no stranger than ET, I do not see any support for this claim at all outside of a tongue in cheek comment. That is because it is based on the same rubbish the ETH is. Hearsay and conjecture. As for the question of the middle of nowhere, they would have been quite close to the worlds only nuclear capable bomber group. A good enough reason wouldn't you say? That is if the story could be at all substantiated.

But as I mentioned throughout the post, you have missed the boat altogether here. Try going through the BE thread part 2, and search Lost Shaman, and you will see where this forum, thanks to Lost Shaman, has far advanced from the conjecture you are repeating, that has already been argued to death. If your poor little jailed mind can get out for just a second, you will find this incredibly enlightening, and will clear up the muddy mystery that has surrounded Roswell for so long, that we, and largely the media, have created for ourselves.

Have a good day, and I do hope we can get along better than this in the future. For Pete's sakes Cassandra, if that be your name, this is a discussion forum. Coming in with "gloves on" is neither necessary, desired, not warranted. I do hope future exchanges can be more amicable. I do not blame you for having this view, the media has propagated the ridiculous ideal for decades as it is a great cash cow, but that does not explain your manners nor your claim as to being some sort of expert on Roswell, which you clearly are not. Try reading posts by Paxus, and Quillus. They are good, nay great role models that display how two sides of the fence can get along just fine, and even move forward. Good luck to you.

Cheers.

Edited June 7, 2011 by psyche101

[skyeagle409]

**EDIT**

**Do not make irrelevant posts. If you are not going to bother to read the purpose of the post you are responding to, don't bother posting.**

Edited June 7, 2011 by aquatus1

[psyche101]

Aquatus1, you are a God amongst MODs.

[skyeagle409]

In 1945? 46?

And no, it turned out we did not need all of the projects running, only one was successful, but that is how you back yourself up isn't it? One does not leave something as important as defending the country against possible atomic threats does one? One has back up plans, doesn't one?

It was well known that the Soviet's first blast could be detected by air samples, and that is how the Soviet's frist blast was detected. Project Mogul was nothing more than research, and not anything to do with spying on the Soviets.

Just because a plane finally made the detection that the US military were listening to for years, does not mean all other projects devoted to listening did not exist.

But,, Project Mogul was nothing more than a research project. As mentioned before, its experiments were posted in newspapers around the country and, Mogul balloons had questionnairs attached so ordinary civilians who recovered Project Mogul balloons, could add their own data input such as time and location and of the decent rate, etc. In fact, Mogul balloons were recovered by ordinary civilians for rewards and reward tags were attached to Mogul balloons as well.

What it all means is this, Project Mogul was not indicative of a classified program,. You don't involve ordinary civilians without securtiy clearances in any classified program, and yet, ordinary civilans became involved in the recovery of Project Mogul balloons. When I read where the Air Force has said that Project Mogul was a classfied program, then I knew that a cover-up was in progress, because that is not what the Air Force taught us in regards to classifed prorams in our classes.

God help us all. One wonders what you will be like when you return from your personal Mecca. Not too much to say about your own service record there huh? The plot is thickening.

Well, I am leaving Texas soon after 3 1/2 years and heading back home to California and Roswell will happen be on the road on my way home as I pass through New Mexico.

And according to those involved in the Roswell incident and the surrounding area, there were balloons as well. Depends on who you speak to doesn't it.

Balloon projects were conducted in the area, and I might add that the balloon teams in New Mexico were also reporting obserrving and tracking flying saucers during their experiments and of course, one of them was none other than Charles Moore, who reported tracking a flying saucer, and Charles Moore's sighting was confirmed by other scientist who have worked with him as well.

So what we have here is, not only were civilians and military personnel reporting flying saucers over the area in New Mexico, but balloons scientist have now made it known that they were also observing and tracking flying saucers as well.

Charles Moores report can be read here.

LIFE MAGAZINE, April 7, 1952

HAVE WE VISITORS FROM SPACE?

The Air Force is now ready to concede that many saucer and fireball sightings still defy explanation; here LIFE offers some scientific evidence that there is a real case for interplanetary saucers.

INCIDENT 3. On April 24,1949 at 10:20 a.m., a group of five technicians under the general supervision of J. Gordon Vaeth, an aeronautical engineer employed by the Office of Naval Research, were preparing to launch a Skyhook balloon near Arrey, N. Mex. A small balloon was sent up first to check the weather. Charles B. Moore Jr., an aerologist of General Mills Inc. (pioneers in cosmic ray research) was tracking the weather balloon through a theodolite -- a 25-power telescopic instrument, which gives degrees of azimuth and elevation (horizontal and vertical position) for any object it is sighted on. At 10:30 a.m. Moore leaned back from the theodolite to glance at the balloon with his naked eye. Suddenly he saw a whitish elliptical object, apparently much higher than the balloon, and moving, in the opposite direction. At once he picked the object up in his theodolite at 45 degrees of elevation and 210 degrees of azimuth, and tracked it east at the phenomenal rate of 5 d of azimuth-change per second as it dropped swiftly to an elevation of 25 d. The Object appeared to be an ellipsoid roughly two and a half times as long as it was wide. Suddenly it swung abruptly upward and rushed out of sight in a few seconds. Moore had tracked it for about 60 seconds altogether. The other members of his crew confirmed his report. No sound was heard, no vapor trail was seen. The object, according to rough estimations by Moore and his colleagues, was about 56 miles above the earth, 100 feet long and was traveling at seven miles per second. [Note: This is the same Charles B. Moore who is now debunking the Roswell UFO crash object of June/July 1947 as nothing more than one of his secret Mogul balloons that he helped launch.]

EVALUATION. No known optical or atmospheric phenomenon fits the facts. A natural object traveling at seven miles per second has never been seen to make a sudden upward turn. There is no known or projected source of silent, vaporless power for such a machine. No human being could have borne the tremendous "G" load brought to bear on the craft during its abrupt vertical veer.

My link

In addition:

Project Mogul UFO Sightings

One of the ironies of using Project Mogul to try to explain away the Roswell case and other New Mexico sightings is that Mogul and later Skyhook balloon personnel themselves contributed many high-quality UFO sightings.

One very famous Mogul sighting involved Charles Moore on April 24, 1949. An additional irony here is that this is the same Charles Moore that has been

trying so hard in the present-day to debunk the Roswell case as one of his Mogul balloons. Moore's sighting was written up in the equally famous 1952 LIFE Magazine article of high-quality UFO reports and in a 1950 TRUE Magazine article by Naval Commander Robert B. McLaughlin, head of the Naval missile program at White Sands (who unequivocally stated that the flying saucers being spotted by White Sands personnel, including himself, were not only real but extraterrestrial in origin). Moore's sighting is also found in a number of government documents, including those of the CIA, whose scientists were very impressed by it.

My link

[skyeagle409]

And I have repeatedly asked you to produce one of my unclassified letters so that you can demonstrate how a private communique` is public domain. You refuse to answer this because you cannot, and it demonstrates the validity of your straw man here. What you have is a letter that someone got a hold of way after the fact, which proves nothing. Very hypocritical of you to consistently avoid the challenge I set for you to prove your point, when you keeping asking Boon to keep doing his math over and again in the BE thread. How about we see some effort from you, and not your constant appeal to authority?

So post the letter I wrote and prove me wrong or cease and desist your ranting and raving would you.

I have repeatedly warned you that I will use logic and reasoning against the nonsense you post.

I have been involved in classified matter while serving in the Air Force and in fact, I faced OSI interviews to vouch for the characters of my co-workers who were to be sent to secret bases within the United States, and, I have well aware of how we conduct classified projects within the Air For rce, which is why I have stated for the record that Project Mogul was not a classified project by any means and was never indicative of any classified program.

You do not allow ordinary civilians with no security clearances to even come near any classified project and yet, Project Mogul folks allowed ordinary civilians to recover Mogul balloons for reward and to even add their own input on Mogul balloon questionnaires.

What I can say about all of that is, the Air Force did a fantastic job of duping many folks on Project Mogul.

[skyeagle409]

How many times have you been asked to read posts and counter debates with debate as opposed to an appeal to authority?

I can do so as I have been involved in classified matters while serving in the USAF. In fact, based on my OSI interviews, the Air Force allowed my co-workers to be reassigned to secret bases around the country. To furhter add to that, I am well aware of how we conduct secret operations in regards to our classified assets, which once again, my statement that Project Mogul was not indicative of any classified program run by our military services.

Yes Project MOGUL was indeed classified, the balloons were not.

Project Mogul was never a classifed program. The Air Force mislead people on Project Mogul The fact that Mogul balloon operations was recorded in unclassified reccords of A. P. Crary, told us right there that Project Mogul was nothing more than an unclassified research project and nothing else.

Commander McLauglin's unclassified letter, which mentioned Projject Mogul by name was another clue that Project Mogul was not a classified project at all. I must also mention that Project Moby Dick was not a Project Mogul balloon train.

Edited June 7, 2011 by skyeagle409

[Space Commander Travis]

Are you just being facetious?

No i'm not. You've read the theory; does that sound more plausible than the suggestion that it may have been (say) a probe from another civilisation? I don't think it does.