[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[Alewyn]

Just explain to me, why Cornelis over de Linden came out with the OLB within weeks after the death of Ernest Stadermann, but does not explain that in his so-called testament for his grandson. Why did he keep silent about the first visit to Enkhuizen in 1845 ?

Simple: It was not relevant

[Knul]

Otharus, the copy was made by F. Goslings and the copy was ready in november 1869. Ottema was not content with the work of Verwijs and asked Cornelis over de Linden to send him the originals once more. Just check the information and don't tell things, which are not true. s. http://www.rodinbook.nl/olbbrieven.html.

[Knul]

Simple: It was not relevant

It is very relevant indeed, because Cornelis over de Linden kept silent for 19 years and just after the death of Stadermann tried to get a translation. There is no better proof, that he only came out, when his complice - the witness of the forgery died.

Edited November 25, 2011 by Knul

[Abramelin]

Otharus, the copy was made by F. Goslings and the copy was ready in november 1869. Ottema was not content with the work of Verwijs and asked Cornelis over de Linden to send him the originals once more. Just check the information and don't tell things, which are not true. s. http://www.rodinbook.nl/olbbrieven.html.'>http://www.rodinbook.nl/olbbrieven.html.

Menno, just a word of advice: when you post a link - any link - never put a period or comma right after it or the link won't work.

The link in your post doesn't work, but now it does:

http://www.rodinbook.nl/olbbrieven.html

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Edited November 25, 2011 by Abramelin

[Knul]

It seems that I understand Dutch better than you do.

Please read again Cornelis over de Linden's essay (or "testament" as you call it)to his grandson as well as his letter to Dr. Ottema and all his correspondence with Verwijs.

HE COPIED THE WHOLE MANUSCRIPT TO VERWIJS.

This is how Verwijs managed to give a full translation to the "Frisian Society" even before Ottema had layed an eye on it, and this is why Ottema was asked by the Society to investigate the matter.

BTW. It is obvious that Verwijs was a cheat who tried to do Over de Linden in. He never gave him the translation as promised, but went behind his back to the "Frisian Society" to make a name for himself.

Next time, please check your facts before you call anyone a liar. You are starting to sound like Abramelin,

He did not copy the whole manuscript, but sent the original in parts. What you write is simply not true. The manuscript has been copied by F. Goslings. Verwijs organized that the Frisian Society would pay him for that work. Cornelis over de Linden did not want to send the complete manuscript.

Brief van Eelco Verwijs aan Cornelis over de Linden d.d. 17 mei 1869.

[E.V. zendt het ontvangen deel van het hscr. terug. Het is gecopieerd, maar hij heeft nog geen tijd gehad het te vertalen. Zal gaarne de rest ontvangen. Een jongmens [F. Goslings] copieert het voor hem. Voor de grote vacantie zal het af zijn. Bron: M. de Jong Hzn.].

Waarde Heer, Hiernevens zend ik U het van U ontvangene deel van Uw handschrift terug, dat gekopieerd is, maar waarvoor ik nog geen tijd heb kunnen vinden om aan de vertaling te denken. Ik ben er al eens mee begonnen, doch heb het werk om andere bezigheden telkens weer uit handen moeten leggen. Gaarne wil ik nu het overige hebben, daar een jongmensch [F. Goslings] hier het handschrift voor mij kopieert, die het overige nog wel voor de groote vacantie zal kunnen afmaken. Dan hoop ik het geheel in mijne vacantie dezen zomer mee te nemen en mij dan aan de vertaling te zetten. Daartoe heb ik ook eerst liefst het geheel afgeschreven, om althans eens eerst door een aandachtige lezing op de hoogte te komen van hetgeen er zoo ongeveer in staat. Het een heldert dan licht het andere op. In de hoop spoedig het overige van U te ontvangen, noem ik mij met achting Uw toegenegen Dienaar w.g. Eelco Verwijs.

Edited November 25, 2011 by Knul

[Abramelin]

Next time, please check your facts before you call anyone a liar. You are starting to sound like Abramelin,

Otharus and I already settled that; it was about selectively quoting someone. What I didn't know was that if you click on the little arrow left of the username in the quoted post, you will be redirected to the original post.

[Abramelin]

Menno, your link is still not working: remove the point right after ... html .

http://www.rodinbook.nl/olbbrieven.html

.

Edited November 25, 2011 by Abramelin

[Alewyn]

It is very relevant indeed, because Cornelis over de Linden kept silent for 19 years and just after the death of Stadermann tried to get a translation. There is no better proof, that he only came out, when his complice - the witness of the forgery died.

It only becomes relevant if you become desperate to find evidence of a conspiracy or to support your hoax theory.

Do you honestly believe that Over de Linde and Staderman, who were not academics by a long shot, could have had in them to create this very "complicated and multi-layered" hoax as described by Professor Jensma?

You keep on saying that Halbertsma created the hoax but it would seem that you want to include these two gentlemen just to be on the safe side. Get serious.

Not one of the historical facts or revelations in the Oera Linda Book has been proven wrong over the last 140 years. You are therefore implying that, between the two of them, these two non-academics had all this information?

Somebody started a false theory in the 19th century and you just follow like sheep.

[Abramelin]

I have posted a while ago about newspaper archives of the northern Netherlands.

Well, here it is: http://www.archiefleeuwardercourant.nl/

Then enter in [ZOEKEN] (right below "Trefwoord") 'oera linda' without quotation marks, and the result is 356 newspaper articles, and the second one (page 33 of the search results) is by Ottema himself ("J.G.O.").

A nice one here:

Leeuwarder Courant, 29-08-1959

Het geslacht OVER DE LINDEN

kwam uit Steggerda

(The Over de Linden family came from Steggerda)

Ofschoon we met het genealogisch

onderzoek nog niet veel verder gekomen

komen zijn en de stamvader in Steggerda

nog niet eens vaststaat is nu wel

bewezen dat de familie uit Steggerda

kwam en de naam dankt aan de rivier

de Linde Het Oera-Linda-mysterie is

hiermede voorgoed een familie Over de

Linden-zaak geworden al is het spijtig

voor dit geslacht dat van een duizenden

jaren oude adellijke afstamming uit de

Oera-Linda-oorden geen sprake kan

zijn want adel en bezit viel in Steggerda

niet te ontdekken.

W.TSJ. VLEER

http://www.archiefleeuwardercourant.nl/vw/article.do?id=LC-19590829-17003&vw=org&lm=oera%2Clinda%2Cvler

For those who don't know: Steggerda is a place in Friesland, 'on the other side of the Linde (river)' or "oera Linda".

And the next article even says (it quotes a Wumkes) that Willem van Haren must have been the one who created the OLB !!

http://www.archiefleeuwardercourant.nl/vw/article.do?id=LC-19720219-29005&vw=org&lm=oera%2Clinda%2Cvler

.

Edited November 25, 2011 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

Just explain to me, why Cornelis over de Linden came out with the OLB within weeks after the death of Ernest Stadermann, but does not explain that in his so-called testament for his grandson.

Alewyn is right; it was irrelevant.

It happens too often that you ask me questions that I have already answered.

That's what I mean with "waste of time".

Please read again:

Knul, on 14 November 2011 - 12:23 AM, said:

No explanation has been given for the fact, that Cornelis over de Linden communicated the OLB immediately after the death of Stadermann and that he did not even mention this name in his testament for Cornelis III.

Several other explanations are possible, like:

- It's a coincidence.

- It reminded Cornelis of his own mortality and he wanted to know what the manuscript was about before he died.

- Cornelis had hoped that Stadermann could help him translate the manuscript, either himself or by introducing him to someone else, or that he could help him find a more helpful book about Oldfrisian.

That he didn't mention Stadermann in his testament can also be explained by the fact that your theory is nonsense.

[Otharus]

Oct 1872 – Feb 1874. Essay by Cornelis over de Linden (Addressed to grandson Cornelis III).

(My translation of the Dutch version posted by Knul a few weeks ago. Knul’s and Beckering Vinckers’ remarks have been omitted.)

Much appreciated, Alewyn!

[Otharus]

Otharus, the copy was made by F. Goslings and the copy was ready in november 1869. Ottema was not content with the work of Verwijs and asked Cornelis over de Linden to send him the originals once more. Just check the information and don't tell things, which are not true.

You suggest that part of what I wrote is not true.

What part exactly?

When I make a mistake, I'm never to proud to admit it, but I have no idea what you are talking about here.

[Abramelin]

Since the last twenty years, attention has been directed to the remains of the dwellings on piles, first observed in the Swiss lakes, and afterwards in other parts of Europe. (See Dr E Rückert, Die Pfahlbauten; Wurzburg, 1869; Dr TC Winkler, in the Volksalmanak, t.N.v.A.1867). When they were found, endeavours were made to discover, by the existing fragments of arms, tools and household articles, by whom and when these dwelling had been inhabited. There are no accounts of them in historical writers, beyond what Herodotus writes in book v. chapter 16, of the Paeonen. The only trace that has been found is one of the panels of Trajans Pillar, in which the destruction of a pile village in Dacia is represented.

Doubly important, therefore, is it to learn from the writing of Apollonia that she, as `Burgtmaagd (chief of the virgins), about 540 years before Christ, made a journey up the Rhine to Switzerland, and there became acquainted with the Lake Dwellers (marsaten). She describes their dwellings built upon piles - the people themselves - their manners and customs. She relates that they lived by fishing and hunting, and that they prepared the skins of animals with the bark of the birch-tree in order to sell the furs to the Rhine boatmen, who brought them into commerce. This account of the pile dwellings of the Swiss lakes could only have been written in the time when these dwellings still existed and were still lived in. In the second part of the writing, Konered oera Linda relates that Adel, the son of Friso (approximately 250 years before Christ), visited the pile dwellings in Switzerland with his wife Ifkja.

Later than this account there is no mention by any writer whatever of the pile dwellings, and the subject has remained for twenty centuries utterly unknown until 1853, when an extraordinary low state of the water led to the discovery of these dwellings. Therefore no one could have invented this account in the intervening period.

http://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=Van+Lennep+Brinio+paalwoning&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CDgQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dbnl.org%2Ftekst%2Fsaveas.php%3Ffilename%3D_noo001190301_01.txt%26dir%3D%2Farch%2F_noo001190301_01%2Fpag%26type%3Dtxt%26common%3D1&ei=DqzPTuugOMaAOvXEwJsP&usg=AFQjCNEFvFzhOrhdpkxBoqhKBp14kcGyuQ

NOORD EN ZUID.

TIJDSCHRIFT

TEN DIENSTE VAN ONDERWIJZERS

BIJ DE STUDIE DER

NEDERLANDSCHE TAAL-EN LETTERKUNDE

ONDER REDACTIE VAN

TACO H. DE BEEL,

Lid der Koninklijk Vlaamsche Akademie

EN MET VASTE MEDEWERKING VAN

J. E. TER GOUW, A. M. MOLENAAR EN

B. SCIIELTS VAN KLOOSTERHUIS.

Zesentwintigste Jaargang,

BLOM & OLIVIERSE. -- 1903 -- CULEMBORG.

Dr. Ottema van zijn kant kwam juist door de vermelding van

paalwoningen in het H. S. tot het besluit, dat het verhaal voor

't minst eenige eeuwen voor onze tijdrekening moest geschreven

zijn. Een derde wijst er evenwel op, dat in Van Lennep's Brinio,

waarvan de eerste druk in 1838 verscheen, reeds van paalwoningen

bij de Marezaten wordt gesproken.

Onze voorouders (Our ancestors) - Jacob van Lennep

http://books.google.nl/books?id=An0UAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA430&lpg=PA430&dq=Van+Lennep+Brinio+marezaten&source=bl&ots=R18qsT-LpT&sig=WYRfHmByQj16bZ3bczYfpo1JYNs&hl=nl&ei=N6rPTuu3CsjtOaXOnJQP&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

It appears the idea that the Marezaten/Marsatar lived in pile dwellings ("paalwoningen") was known or fantasized (or 'invented' as Alewyn puts it) already in 1838, 15 years before they were discovered.

.

Edited November 25, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

I have waded through the 487 pages of Van Lennep's book to see where he actually mentions those 'paalwoningen' (pile dwellings/ stilt houses) of the Marezaten....

First a map that shows where he thought they lived (= near the Haarlemmermeer):

Then a description of 'a' people living in these pile dwellings and apparently visible from the Veluwe:

These "paalwoningen" ( or here, "hutten... op houten palen") were located in an area that was flat and cris-crossed by streams, mudflats and pools.

And... from what I read just now, these people were the Batavians.

Or the Marezaten/Marsatar were part of these Batavians, or someone connected the wrong dots.

Hmmmmmm...........

+++++++++++

This is another map of the Netherlands during the times of the Romans:

At least the Marezaten/Marsatar and the Batavians were neighbours.

And back then (Van Lennep's time) they assumed the Flevo Lake (forerunner of the later Zuiderzee/IJsselmeer) was more to the west than it actually was (near the Haarlemmermeer, a lake in the province of Noordholland that later got reclaimed).

+++++++++++

EDIT:

For comparison, here the relevant passage in the OLB:

Above the Rhine among the mountains I have seen Marsaten. The Marsaten are people who live on the lakes. Their houses are, built upon poles, for protection from the wild beasts and wicked people. There are wolves, bears, and horrible lions. Then come the Swiss, the nearest to the frontiers of the Heinde Krekalander (Italians), the followers of Kalta and the savage Twiskar, all greedy for robbery and booty.

The Marsaten gain their livelihood by fishing and hunting. The skins are sewn together by the women, and prepared with birch bark. The small skins are as soft as a woman’s skin. The Burgtmaagd at Fryasburgt told us that they were good, simple people; but if I had not heard her speak of them first, I should have thought that they were not Frya’s people, they looked so impudent. Their wool and herbs are bought by the Rhine people, and taken to foreign countries by the ship captains. Along the other side of the Rhine it was just the same as at Lydasburcht (Leiden). There was a great river or lake, and upon this lake also there were people living upon piles. But they were not Frya’s people; they were black and brown men who had been employed as rowers to bring home the men who had been making foreign voyages, and they had to stay there till the fleet went back.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/

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Edited November 25, 2011 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

Well done, Abe. Very interesting!

[Abramelin]

Well done, Abe. Very interesting!

Thanks. But the point is that those stilt houses were either known (or made up) by this Van Lennep in 1838.

But I'm not that sure about the people living in these stilt houses ("hutten op palen") were the Marsaten according to that book by Van Lennep; he seems to suggest it were the Batavians (on their 'island' between the rivers I guess). Maybe I didn't read it right or I missed something: I scrolled past 487 pages, humming "Marezaten" all the time, lol.

And I started at the end of the book because I had hoped to see some sort of an index there. I didn't and scrolled back page for page, only to discover that passage about those stilt houses near the beginning.

The Marezaten were mentioned a couple of times, but not in direct relation to these stilt houses.

Oh, and a nice extra: "Freia" (the goddess) is mentioned a couple of times; one time in a poem sung by some witch, another time by someone who was a bit displeased with the (sexual) behaviour of (I think some) Romans (like in "if Freia could prevent this, this would not happen").

.

.

Edited November 25, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

And no doubt you will all be pleased to hear what name Van Lennep gives - while talking about the Romans - to the Mediterranean (or "Middellandse Zee" in Dutch):

Middelzee

(you must scroll down a bit when you open the link).

The best thing to do is download the book; that's what I did.

Anyway, the message is: some 30 years before the OLB was published some Dutch writer used the name "Middelzee" for the Mediterranean.

So there we have 2 Middle Seas: one in Friesland, and the one we know now as Mediterranean (Middellandse Zee).

.

Edited November 25, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Thanks. But the point is that those stilt houses were either known (or made up) by this Van Lennep in 1838.

But I'm not that sure about the people living in these stilt houses ("hutten op palen") were the Marsaten according to that book by Van Lennep; he seems to suggest it were the Batavians (on their 'island' between the rivers I guess). Maybe I didn't read it right or I missed something: I scrolled past 487 pages, humming "Marezaten" all the time, lol.

And I started at the end of the book because I had hoped to see some sort of an index there. I didn't and scrolled back page for page, only to discover that passage about those stilt houses near the beginning.

The Marezaten were mentioned a couple of times, but not in direct relation to these stilt houses.

Oh, and a nice extra: "Freia" (the goddess) is mentioned a couple of times; one time in a poem sung by some witch, another time by someone who was a bit displeased with the (sexual) behaviour of (I think some) Romans (like in "if Freia could prevent this, this would not happen").

.

.

I found a centuries old book (1752) about Dutch history which gives us an idea about what these people back then thought about where the Marsaten/Marezaaten lived:

Vaderlandsche Historie, Vervattende De Geschiedenissen Der Nu ..., Volume 1 - Jan Wagenaar

The Mareza(a)ten/Marsaten and Batavians were close neighbours.

The Marsaten lived near a river called "Mare" that still (in 1752 that is) runs through the city of Leiden.

"Marezaten"... those 'seated' (gezeten/zaten) near the 'Mare'.

This is a map I posted a few posts back (from Van Lennep's book):

You will see a lake called "Meir" and a stream ("Noordelijke Rhijn tak" = Northern branch of the river Rhine) running down-left to "Matilo" (= Leiden). This must be that stream/river called "Mare".

.

Edited November 25, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Another titbit of info I found:

"Neef Teunis" voor "Neptunus" vinden we bij Pieter Langedijk

(Nef Teunis or "Neptune" we find in [a poem of] Pieter Langedijk

http://www.archiefleeuwardercourant.nl/vw/article.do?id=LC-19700110-7008&vw=org&lm=meij%2Coera%2Clinda

As "Nepthuin" and ""Neptuin" 1751 (and don't forget to check who Langedijk wrote this poem for, LOL: Jacob Alewyn Ghyzen, Junior )

Theun and Thuin are pronounced almsot exactly the same.

Btw: they really DID know back then, how to spell "Neptune" (or "Neptunis") right.

http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/lang020gedi05_01/lang020gedi05_01_0071.php

Cheers.

OK Alewyn, I am waiting for your 'compliments'.

Heh, nevermind.

"Co-writer", eh? I will bet the third edition of your book will be filled to the brim with what I found out.

If not, you are an id**

.

Edited November 25, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Otharus once called me the "über-googler".

Puzz once posted that those "Hollanders" are an arrogant lot.

Damn, I am one of those 'Hollanders', and I will tell you an off-topic story, arrogant as I must be.

I once had a girlfriend who hadn't seen her father for like 30 years (she was 35 back then).

The guy had left his wife and kid (her) because some people had tricked him out of all his money (he was a cab driver and owned a small cab/taxi company.

She told me the whole drama, and I asked her, "Is it ok for you if I try to find him on the internet?"

Of course she said 'yes', but added that I must be crazy.

Well, I am quite crazy.... but I did find her father... hospitalized in some Salvation Army hospital (Utrecht/Netherlands), four days before he was about to die of liver cancer.

They met (she went along with me).

If I told you all the whole experience, I could fill a captivating documentary.

I find anything. Just give me time, and I will (that is one of the advantages of having no life).

Edited November 25, 2011 by Abramelin

[lilthor]

The arrogance in the aforegoing leaves one utterly without words.

Edited November 26, 2011 by lilthor

[Knul]

Otharus once called me the "über-googler".

Puzz once posted that those "Hollanders" are an arrogant lot.

Damn, I am one of those 'Hollanders', and I will tell you an off-topic story, arrogant as I must be.

I once had a girlfriend who hadn't seen her father for like 30 years (she was 35 back then).

The guy had left his wife and kid (her) because some people had tricked him out of all his money (he was a cab driver and owned a small cab/taxi company.

She told me the whole drama, and I asked her, "Is it ok for you if I try to find him on the internet?"

Of course she said 'yes', but added that I must be crazy.

Well, I am quite crazy.... but I did find her father... hospitalized in some Salvation Army hospital (Utrecht/Netherlands), four days before he was about to die of liver cancer.

They met (she went along with me).

If I told you all the whole experience, I could fill a captivating documentary.

I find anything. Just give me time, and I will (that is one of the advantages of having no life).

Sorry, but this has nothing to do with the OLB.

[Otharus]

Onze voorouders (Our ancestors) - Jacob van Lennep

http://books.google.nl/books?id=An0UAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA430&lpg=PA430&dq=Van+Lennep+Brinio+marezaten&source=bl&ots=R18qsT-LpT&sig=WYRfHmByQj16bZ3bczYfpo1JYNs&hl=nl&ei=N6rPTuu3CsjtOaXOnJQP&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

This is an important source for who wants to know how the early 19th century Dutch thought about their ancient past.

I already like Van Lennep's introduction (sorry no translation yet):

Men heeft veel over het nuttige of nadeelige der historische romans geschreven en getwist: en het is mijne bedoeling niet, te dezer plaatse dit vraagpunt op nieuw te berde te brengen. Dat ik mij aan het opstellen en uitgeven van dergelijke verhalen bezondig, is een bewijs, dat ik de soort voorsta en mijn gevoelen te dien opzichte kan niet onpartijdig zijn. Slechts dit geloof ik te kunnen vaststellen, dat de rechte kennis der waarheid minder schade lijdt door een roman dan door een dagblad of een geschiedkundig werk. Dit moge bij den eersten opslag een paradox schijnen; maar niets is er, dat meer heeft van een paradox dan een nieuw denkbeeld: — en de verklaring mijner stelling is dood eenvoudig. De lezer van een roman is reeds door den tytel gewaarschuwd, dat hij waarheid en verdichting door een gemengd zal vinden: en hij heeft het zichzelf te wijten, zoo hij alles voor goede munt opneemt. De dagblad- en historieschrijver daarentegen beloven waarheid: — en hoevelen onder hen zijn er, die woord houden?

And then the title of part I "ALWART".

As "Alward" (which sounds the same), this is an anagram of "Wralda".

Coincidence?

Ignore them grumpy bears, Abe.

You did a good job.

[Otharus]

Oh, and a nice extra: "Freia" (the goddess) is mentioned a couple of times; one time in a poem sung by some witch, another time by someone who was a bit displeased with the (sexual) behaviour of (I think some) Romans (like in "if Freia could prevent this, this would not happen").

Quite relevant.

The phrase "Freia behoede ons!" (May Freya save us!) is also found in:

De Gids. Nieuwe Vaderlandsche Letteroefeningen. G.J.A. Beijerinck, Amsterdam 1839.

http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/_gid001183901_01/_gid001183901_01_0115.php

(one year after publication of Van Lennep's book)

[Knul]

Overeenkomsten met Jacob van Lennep

Het is hier de plaats om te wijzen op overeenkomsten tussen Joost Halbertsma en Jacob van Lennep (1802-1868), bekend schrijver van historische Romans als De roos van Dekama. Een opvallende verschijning in De roos van Dekama is Madzy, wiens naam toch wel erg veel lijkt op Magi, de aanvoerder van de Finnen en Magyaren in het Oera Linda Boek. De Madscharen komen we trouwens ook tegen in De roos van Dekama evenals de Alfader, in het Oera Linda Boek Alfoder genoemd. De Magyaren (van Lennep’s Madscharen), die zichzelf nog steeds beschouwen als afstammelingen van de Hunnen, verlieten in de negende eeuw hun toenmalige woonplaats aan de Wolga en terroriseerden het Frankische rijk. Hendrik de Vogelaar kon ze in de tiende eeuw uit zijn stamland Saksen verdrijven, zoals Olberts verhaalt. Zijn zoon Otto de Grote versloeg ze in de slag bij de Lech in Beieren. Daarna trokken de Magyaren zich terug en stichtten Hongarije. Ze bekeerden zich tot het Christendom en werden een gerespecteerd Europees volk.Er lijkt van toeval geen sprake te zijn, wanneer we opmerken, dat Joost Halbertsma in 1836 samen met Jacob van Lennep en Freerk Dirks Fontein een wandeling maakte door Gaasterland en bij die gelegenheid de lucht van een overoud verleden opsnoven. Freerk Dirks Fontein (1777-1843) was een koopman-geleerde uit Harlingen. Hij was een van de mede-oprichters van het Friesch Genootschap. De relatie tussen J.H. Halbertsma en Jacob van Lennep zou wel eens interessante informatie voor het Oera Linda Boek kunnen opleveren.

s. www.rodinbook.nl