Islam an offshoot of Christianity?

[odas]

Jesus is not a false Idol. He is to be respected but it is wrong, according to Islam, to worship Jesus, Muhammad or anyone else besides God. Basicaly one of the ten comendments.

[+and-then]

To the OP I would disagree that Islam is an 'offshoot' of Christianity, in the sense that it stands on its own. But the reality is many of the early Islamic and Sufi philosophers and leaders were influenced by both Judaism and Christianity, as well as having contact with eastern religions like Hinduism and Buddhism. For example, when you study the Sufi path (which I love) there are numerous classical teachings on detachment, meditation; things that you find in the eastern religion, but then are centered on faith in God. Early Islamic teachers DREW FROM these other faiths, but much of their doctrine is unique to Islam, and is in no way borrowing from the other Abrahamic religions.

To the above quote, I ask, how do we KNOW they are not praying to the same God as Jews and Christians? Are we in a pipeline '3 way call' with God, able to hear whether God responds or not to the prayers of others who do not believe in exactly the same way as we do, like Muslims?

I don't know if you are a Christian or not, but I mean no offense. However, as a Christian myself I begin to wonder about labeling a religion that exalts Jesus as a prophet and blesses the Virgin Mary as 'pagan.' The fact that in another post, you mention that they believe in a literal return of Jesus in the end days TELLS ME that God, the God of Isaac, Abraham, and Jacob is dealing with the Islamic people as much as He is Jews and Christians.

In fact, our 'Judeo-Christian' western mindset has been detrimental to establishing a sound inter-religious dialogue with the Muslim community. In our 'evangelical' mindset we are quick to say things like "Muslims don't pray to the same God Jews and Christians do" when in reality, if you study their sacred texts closely, as Christians in many cases we have more in common with Islam than Judaism. A solid case could be made that the Talmudic laws they follow originate not from the Old Testament as evangelicals mistakenly perceive, but from their Babylonian captivity and pagan Persian religions. All one has to do is point to the Kabbalah (while I do like some of tha Kabbahlistic teachings, however) to see evidence of this fact. And why do evangelicals ignore or gloss over the fact the Talmud says Jesus was a false prophet, is roasting in hell, and that Mary was a prostitute. While many rabbis disavow such teachings, it cannot be disputed that these things are in the Talmud. And yet, we have Muslims who regard Jesus as one of the highest prophets, and Mary as the most blessed woman in the entire Quran. Now just looking at that, who does the Christian have more in common with?

It saddens me as a Christian that we have erected these barriers against Islam; because when I was in Indonesia, a Muslim country, I saw a profound beauty in their faith; and I think we have much that we could learn from one another, as it was in the days before the Turks and the Crusades; where these two great faiths learned side by side from one another, and Christians and Muslims often worshipped in the same building.

Speaking for myself, I have learned much spiritually from studying Islam, and in particular, Sufism.

No, I don't think this is an 'honest' reading of the Quran at all; you are approaching it with your western cultural bias. A Muslim would not call living their faith the way they do as 'subjugation' but DEVOTION, devotion of which the majority of us western Christians are incapable of doing because we have become spiritually lazy. This is reading the Quran not with an open mind, but a closed one. You are comparing it to something else rather than trying to approach it with an open mind, and perhaps get something from it. Furthermore; don't the Jews have the same 'rituals' and 'legalistic' approach to a holy life? Why judge one, then, and not the other? Are the two of them actually not similar in this sense?

And finally, you talk about them spreading control by force. Again, I feel this shows them disrespect...on two levels. First, if we are going back to the time of the Prophet himself; yes the Muslims used the sword...but this was to ultimately unify all the pagan tribes, who were already fighting amongst themselves. They had no choice. By Christian definition, it would have been a just war. In addition, did this not happen in the Old Testament? Don't forget that the Jews had to conqueor the promised land. The Ark of the Covenant was used as a WEAPON. So to say that war isn't sometimes necessary is to discredit your own roots of faith. King David fought in many battles and wars.

In current events, I think we are looking at extremism, not the true way of Muslims. Yes, certain Islamic governments use violence and force to control the people....but this is the problem when ANY religion wields absolute temporal power. Christians were just as guilty of barbarism in the middle ages. It is the sin of power that corrupts, not the religion itself. People of all faith would do well to remember that.

First, thank you for your reasoned and literate response.

I freely acknowledge that Islam has integrated some of the other great religions into it's doctrines. Muslims used violence to control and to force religious submission to Islam.

Even today, once a Muslim population has grown sufficiently in an area they refuse to follow the laws of the host countries and demand their own be observed. They await the return of the prophet Jesus who will worship Allah and be subservient to Al Mahdi. This Jesus will deny his Diety and will cause Christians to convert to Islam or be executed. There will be no other choice then since when Al Mahdi comes there will no longer be the option of paying jizyah. The god of Islam tells his servants that the only way to be guaranteed eternal life is by dying for him in the cause of Jihad. Christ tells us he loved us so much He died for US. The point I tried, rather badly it seems, to make is that Muslims and Christians/Jews do not pray to the same God. In the real world of today there are no Christians or Jews perpetrating suicide bombings. None killing their neighbors whose only sin is not being Muslim. No - I do not believe that Muslims worship the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. Their god is "greatest" and is symbolized by a crescent moon and a star. These symbols are found to predate Islam in the archaeological record.

Islamic eschatology envisions a world of peace and serenity that resembles what the Taliban had in Afghanistan. I've made my choice long ago and I'm waiting patiently for the Lord to return. I wish you all the best, sir.

[Gromdor]

First, thank you for your reasoned and literate response.

I freely acknowledge that Islam has integrated some of the other great religions into it's doctrines. Muslims used violence to control and to force religious submission to Islam.

Even today, once a Muslim population has grown sufficiently in an area they refuse to follow the laws of the host countries and demand their own be observed. They await the return of the prophet Jesus who will worship Allah and be subservient to Al Mahdi. This Jesus will deny his Diety and will cause Christians to convert to Islam or be executed. There will be no other choice then since when Al Mahdi comes there will no longer be the option of paying jizyah. The god of Islam tells his servants that the only way to be guaranteed eternal life is by dying for him in the cause of Jihad. Christ tells us he loved us so much He died for US. The point I tried, rather badly it seems, to make is that Muslims and Christians/Jews do not pray to the same God. In the real world of today there are no Christians or Jews perpetrating suicide bombings. None killing their neighbors whose only sin is not being Muslim. No - I do not believe that Muslims worship the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. Their god is "greatest" and is symbolized by a crescent moon and a star. These symbols are found to predate Islam in the archaeological record.

Islamic eschatology envisions a world of peace and serenity that resembles what the Taliban had in Afghanistan. I've made my choice long ago and I'm waiting patiently for the Lord to return. I wish you all the best, sir.

So the actions of God's followers define who he is then? Wouldn't the abortion clinic bombings, Salem witch trials, crusades, and inquisition for example put Christianity in the same boat as Islam? Heck, here in Iowa there are raio talk show hosts talking about how God's law trumps Constituional law. Isn't that the same as Sharia?

A co-worker of mine refused to accept than Mormonism and Catholicism were Christian religions. I personally think he was trying to limit the definition to make Christianity exclusive to his beliefs. I think you are trying to do the same by trying to limit the definition of God to your beliefs as well. Sorry to be overly blunt.

[+and-then]

So the actions of God's followers define who he is then? Wouldn't the abortion clinic bombings, Salem witch trials, crusades, and inquisition for example put Christianity in the same boat as Islam? Heck, here in Iowa there are raio talk show hosts talking about how God's law trumps Constituional law. Isn't that the same as Sharia?

A co-worker of mine refused to accept than Mormonism and Catholicism were Christian religions. I personally think he was trying to limit the definition to make Christianity exclusive to his beliefs. I think you are trying to do the same by trying to limit the definition of God to your beliefs as well. Sorry to be overly blunt.

No problem Gromdor I think the difference is in how modern Islamists see the world and how they try to control it. Are you really saying that the morality in Christianity and Islam is equivalent? Yes, those acts of savagery by a political church centuries ago were reprehensible and should be condemned. But to compare the acts of modern Christianity to what the Taliban had in Afghanistan is insupportable. My point still stands. The Qur'an teaches it's adherents that they must spread the "faith" through force if necessary until there is only one religion in the world...Islam. That's not an opinion, it's in their scripture and traditions. Those who are committing terror these days are not the radicals, they are the only ones who follow the path Mohammed laid out. Christians are compelled to tell others of the good news of Christ's sacrificial death,resurrection and ascendance. No force there...

There is a movement afoot these days that is a "blending" of Christianity and Islam. It is religious apostasy and was warned of in prophecy for the end times.

I don't know which Christians in the US are disobeying the laws of the State to keep biblical laws but if they are I would say that the way I understand the bible, Christians are to obey the laws and rulers appointed over them and even to pray for them. If they feel they have to choose against the State law to remain true to the faith then they just have to be willing to accept the penalty for the disobedience.

Finally, if Christ claimed to be the Creator God (as He did) and the Jesus of Islam refutes that assertion, then how can the god of Islam be the same God of the bible?

[+HerNibs]

No problem Gromdor I think the difference is in how modern Islamists see the world and how they try to control it. Are you really saying that the morality in Christianity and Islam is equivalent? Yes, those acts of savagery by a political church centuries ago were reprehensible and should be condemned. But to compare the acts of modern Christianity to what the Taliban had in Afghanistan is insupportable. My point still stands. The Qur'an teaches it's adherents that they must spread the "faith" through force if necessary until there is only one religion in the world...Islam. That's not an opinion, it's in their scripture and traditions. Those who are committing terror these days are not the radicals, they are the only ones who follow the path Mohammed laid out. Christians are compelled to tell others of the good news of Christ's sacrificial death,resurrection and ascendance. No force there...

There is a movement afoot these days that is a "blending" of Christianity and Islam. It is religious apostasy and was warned of in prophecy for the end times.

I don't know which Christians in the US are disobeying the laws of the State to keep biblical laws but if they are I would say that the way I understand the bible, Christians are to obey the laws and rulers appointed over them and even to pray for them. If they feel they have to choose against the State law to remain true to the faith then they just have to be willing to accept the penalty for the disobedience.

Finally, if Christ claimed to be the Creator God (as He did) and the Jesus of Islam refutes that assertion, then how can the god of Islam be the same God of the bible?

Can you source where in the Qur'an it says these things?

Nibs

ETA-

Bible Quotes

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill False Prophets

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Kill Followers of Other Religions.

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Death for Blasphemy

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

Kill False Prophets

1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

Infidels and Gays Should Die

So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle

For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)

Edited February 17, 2012 by HerNibs

[+and-then]

So you equate both religions as hateful. Where in modern society where Christianity or Judaism have predominance do you see examples of the above mentioned commandments being executed? And the acid test...which society would you prefer for you or your daughters?

As for sources I will have to research for specific Surahs and verses and I will provide them.

The last question from that post still requires an answer since it speaks to the point the thread is based on: Finally, if Christ claimed to be the Creator God (as He did) and the Jesus of Islam refutes that assertion, then how can the god of Islam be the same God of the bible?

[+and-then]

For Her Nibs Most of the Qur'anic and Hadith examples I originally took from a book by Joel Rosenberg and I can't find my copy just now so I Googled and found a better source of references. If you have a Qur'an or a copy of the Hadiths you can verify them.

http://www.****************.com/Quran/013-forced-conversion.htm

[+HerNibs]

So you equate both religions as hateful. Where in modern society where Christianity or Judaism have predominance do you see examples of the above mentioned commandments being executed? And the acid test...which society would you prefer for you or your daughters?

As for sources I will have to research for specific Surahs and verses and I will provide them.

The last question from that post still requires an answer since it speaks to the point the thread is based on: Finally, if Christ claimed to be the Creator God (as He did) and the Jesus of Islam refutes that assertion, then how can the god of Islam be the same God of the bible?

Actually, I don't equate them as hateful. Religion on it's own is just dogma. Human beings use the religion for evil. I think that there are extremists in all religions that use their dogma to abuse, suppress and generally cause havoc that make their religion look bad.

I KNOW that most moderates of all religions are just regular folk.

All three religions (Islam, Christianity and Judaism) are from the same sources and mix and match many of the same players.

They all are Abrahamic and all worship a single deity.

Here is a nice comparison chart.

Nibs

[+HerNibs]

For Her Nibs Most of the Qur'anic and Hadith examples I originally took from a book by Joel Rosenberg and I can't find my copy just now so I Googled and found a better source of references. If you have a Qur'an or a copy of the Hadiths you can verify them.

http://www.****************.com/Quran/013-forced-conversion.htm

My point is that ALL THREE religious texts promote violence and the killing of those that are not of the "correct" faith.

They (Christian, Judaism, Islam) can be interpreted many ways and are.

Nibs

[Gromdor]

So you equate both religions as hateful. Where in modern society where Christianity or Judaism have predominance do you see examples of the above mentioned commandments being executed? And the acid test...which society would you prefer for you or your daughters?

As for sources I will have to research for specific Surahs and verses and I will provide them.

The last question from that post still requires an answer since it speaks to the point the thread is based on: Finally, if Christ claimed to be the Creator God (as He did) and the Jesus of Islam refutes that assertion, then how can the god of Islam be the same God of the bible?

By that logic of that last post, the God of Islam and the God of the Jews are the same and the God of Christians is someone else. Jews don't recognize Jesus as the Messiah, you know.

[+and-then]

By that logic of that last post, the God of Islam and the God of the Jews are the same and the God of Christians is someone else. Jews don't recognize Jesus as the Messiah, you know.

You make a valid point. But I would say not that Jews and Muslims worship the same Deity but that Christians do not worship the god of Islam. Jew and Christian alike believe in free will and loving others unconditionally. The fact that Jews do not recognize Christ as messiah does not mean they worship the hateful god of Islam.

Do you believe that the tenets of faith in Islam/Judaism/Christianity point to them all having the same God?

[Gromdor]

You make a valid point. But I would say not that Jews and Muslims worship the same Deity but that Christians do not worship the god of Islam. Jew and Christian alike believe in free will and loving others unconditionally. The fact that Jews do not recognize Christ as messiah does not mean they worship the hateful god of Islam.

Do you believe that the tenets of faith in Islam/Judaism/Christianity point to them all having the same God?

I believe that the tenents of faith of the followers in Islam/Judaism/Christianity are the only difference. God is either universal and man-kind makes religious tenents in an attempt to make Him exclusive to their beliefs or each religion creates their own God based off their tenents.

[odas]

You make a valid point. But I would say not that Jews and Muslims worship the same Deity but that Christians do not worship the god of Islam. Jew and Christian alike believe in free will and loving others unconditionally. The fact that Jews do not recognize Christ as messiah does not mean they worship the hateful god of Islam.

Do you believe that the tenets of faith in Islam/Judaism/Christianity point to them all having the same God?

Please tell me the difference between love and hate in the ot an q. Please tell me the difference between spreading christianity and islam, to be more specific, the actions of the followers.

There is as much as forgiving in the quran as it is in the nt and as much as hate as in the ot.

Please, look at the position and right and obligations of woman in the bible in regards to inharitance, divorce and her place in society and compare that to the quran. Dont compare it to todays society standards but to the times when the books were written. However you are free to compare the womans right to divorse a man and the mans obligation thereafter to his ex even to todays standards in catholizism and modern law.

Islam, christianity and judaism had their fair share in blood and love. It is not correct to hide ones wrongdoings but elevate ohers.

[+and-then]

Please tell me the difference between love and hate in the ot an q. Please tell me the difference between spreading christianity and islam, to be more specific, the actions of the followers.

There is as much as forgiving in the quran as it is in the nt and as much as hate as in the ot.

Please, look at the position and right and obligations of woman in the bible in regards to inharitance, divorce and her place in society and compare that to the quran. Dont compare it to todays society standards but to the times when the books were written. However you are free to compare the womans right to divorse a man and the mans obligation thereafter to his ex even to todays standards in catholizism and modern law.

Islam, christianity and judaism had their fair share in blood and love. It is not correct to hide ones wrongdoings but elevate ohers.

The true difference is that the teachings of Christ in NO way call for anyone to be forced to believe. Just the opposite. Willing faith is the key and an absolute necessity. Religions have subjugated and murdered throughout history but today you'll never see a Christian cutting off the head of an enemy for not being a Christian. The teachings of Islam in many areas are noble and similar to Christianity and Judaism. They take much of their traditions from both. But there can be no doubt about their insistence on conversion at the point of a gun.

spelling edit

Edited February 20, 2012 by and then

[odas]

The true difference is that the teachings of Christ in NO way call for anyone to be forced to believe. Just the opposite. Willing faith is the key and an absolute necessity. Religions have subjugated and murdered throughout history but today you'll never see a Christian cutting off the head of an enemy for not being a Christian. The teachings of Islam in many areas are noble and similar to Christianity and Judaism. They take much of their traditions from both. But there can be no doubt about their insistence on conversion at the point of a gun.

spelling edit

I would strongly disagree with your statement marked in bold, but this would be another topic.

The forcefull conversion to Islam is strongly forbidden in Islam as stated in the Quran. “ There is no compulsion in religion…” (Qur’an, 2:256).

“Had your Lord wanted, all the people on earth would have believed. So will you force people to believe?” (Qur’an, 10:99)

“So warn them: your only task is to warn, you’re not supposed to force them.” (Qur’an, 88:21-22)

Of course there are verses that imply that it is alowed to convert forcefull someone to Islam but those verses are usualy misinterpreted since it does not stand alone as a verse but conects to another earlier ( I admit the Quran is not easy to read sometimes if you do not pay attention).

“…seize them and kill them wherever you find them…” (Qur’an, 4:91).

In this example, it becomes crystal clear that “them” is referring to a group of hypocrites who are trying to harm and kill the Muslims. It would have been sufficient in this case to simply quote more of the verse: “So if they neither withdraw, nor offer you peace, nor restrain themselves from fighting you, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them: We give you clear authority against these type of people.” (Qur’an, 4:91)

However, as for the argument we have also this:

In Deuteronomy 7:1-3: “When the Lord your God brings you into the land… and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. Do not intermarry with them…”

In Numbers 31:17-18: “Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.”

Jesus is reported to have said in Luke 19:27: “But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”.........and so on.

My friend, Christianity is not what it was at it's begining, nor is Islam. The OT, the NT and the Q are one. It is us, the people, who made the difference. Not only inbetween Islam, Christianity and Judaism but also among itself, Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, Sunnies, Shias, Suffies.............. In some cases Christian sects are so appart from each others beliefs it makes Christianity and Islam look like single egg twins.

[odas]

We all hear how some muslims treat captive soldiers, women, with a disgrase, unjust, inhuman way..... Now let's see what the Quran says about it.

Equality of Human Beings:

The Almighty God

has laid down in the Holy Quran: "O mankind, we have created you

from a male and female." In other words all human beings are brothers

to one another. They all are the descendants from one father and one

mother. "And we set you up as nations and tribes so that you may be

able to recognize each other" (49:13).

The Right to Life:

The first and the foremost basic right is the right to live and

respect human life. The Holy Quran lays down:

The first and the foremost basic right is the right to live and

respect human life. The Holy Quran lays down:

Whosoever kills a human being without (any reason like) man

slaughter, or corruption on earth, it is as though he had killed

all mankind ... (5:32)

The Right to Justice:

The Holy Quran has laid down: "Do not let

your hatred of a people incite you to aggression" (5:2). "And do not

let ill-will towards any folk incite you so that you swerve from dealing

justly. Be just; that is nearest to heedfulness" (5:8).

Captives of war:

They perform (their) vows, and they fear a Day Whose evil flies far and wide. And they feed, for the love of Allah, the indigent, the orphan, and the captive -- (Saying), 'We feed you For the sake of Allah alone: No reward do we desire from you, nor thanks.' (The Noble Quran, 76:7-9)"

The list is big of what muslims are supposed to do and what some of them are acctualy doing. It is wrong to equate the actions of a few with the true message, being it muslims, christians, jews or any other.

As for the name Allah and not God, and not being the same, a little is known about this but God was the first who said: Call me what you want but don't call me late for lunch.

[RavenHawk]

I wouldn’t call Islam an offshoot of Christianity in the sense that Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism or Buddhism is an offshoot of Hinduism. It is more of an alternate due to confusion. If you look at what was going on at the time and 3 centuries before, the nature of Christ was still somewhat not yet established. The debate raged on for a long time if Jesus was GOD or subordinate to him. I think this conflict got to Mohammed and he was seeking to return to something simpler. The concepts of redemption and salvation were something new. Using the moon god Allah isn’t really pertinent. The pagan Allah is probably just the pagan representation of GOD anyway. Or at least Mohammed thought so. Borrowing from other religions is common place. The influence originated from the same place anyway.

[the-Unexpected-Soul]

I wouldn’t call Islam an offshoot of Christianity in the sense that Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism or Buddhism is an offshoot of Hinduism. It is more of an alternate due to confusion. If you look at what was going on at the time and 3 centuries before, the nature of Christ was still somewhat not yet established. The debate raged on for a long time if Jesus was GOD or subordinate to him. I think this conflict got to Mohammed and he was seeking to return to something simpler. The concepts of redemption and salvation were something new. Using the moon god Allah isn’t really pertinent. The pagan Allah is probably just the pagan representation of GOD anyway. Or at least Mohammed thought so. Borrowing from other religions is common place. The influence originated from the same place anyway.

Allah is not a pagan god nor the moon god , for god sake, Please Study Islamic Perspective more, Allah in the Islamic, is the God which is completly

separated from all other creations that he created , so there is god and there is creation which only existed and continue to exist because of god

so islamic idea of what is God have nothing to do with paganism or the moon , we only use the moon as a symbol

thank you

[The Silver Thong]

Allah is not a pagan god nor the moon god , for god sake, Please Study Islamic Perspective more, Allah in the Islamic, is the God which is completly

separated from all other creations that he created , so there is god and there is creation which only existed and continue to exist because of god

so islamic idea of what is God have nothing to do with paganism or the moon , we only use the moon as a symbol

thank you

So does that make all gods as equals. God means creation however it took man to create a god. In saying that all gods are not equal and only allowed superior status because man allows it. God is allowed to exist only due to man. God is but a tool that some wish to use for there own means. If you wish to follow a god you are following nothing more than a mans take on such.

If there was a god jesus and allah would be a sin to follow as no all knowing god would make such a farce of itselfe.

[the-Unexpected-Soul]

So does that make all gods as equals.

well we believe that there is only one god,

but if you want to imagine that there is like two or three gods

and that they are not equals then the strongest one among them will be the real one god

God means creation however it took man to create a god.

yeah man can create a lot of ideas with his brain, a lot of those ideas are true and a lot of them are false

we need to apply logical means and evidence to verify if the idea is true or false , if man brain created the idea

of god it still might be true

In saying that all gods are not equal and only allowed superior status because man allows it. God is allowed to exist only due to man. God is but a tool that some wish to use for there own means. If you wish to follow a god you are following nothing more than a mans take on such.

yes man ego always try to play god, that's why it's important in Islam to kill your ego

and man will always use the idea of god to his benefit by controlling people in the name of god, but that doesn't proof if god realy exist or not

If there was a god jesus and allah would be a sin to follow as no all knowing god would make such a farce of itselfe.

i didn't understand this part

[The Silver Thong]

well we believe that there is only one god,

but if you want to imagine that there is like two or three gods

and that they are not equals then the strongest one among them will be the real one god

yeah man can create a lot of ideas with his brain, a lot of those ideas are true and a lot of them are false

we need to apply logical means and evidence to verify if the idea is true or false , if man brain created the idea

of god it still might be true

yes man ego always try to play god, that's why it's important in Islam to kill your ego

and man will always use the idea of god to his benefit by controlling people in the name of god, but that doesn't proof if god realy exist or not

i didn't understand this part

First off I sympathize with your nation and what it`s going through. How is that such could take place. Is it that god, your god has turned a blind eye or is it that your god does not care about nations let alone people.

The world has many gods and always has. Has one of these gods ever done anything. Could you please mention something your god has done that no other has not.

Yes man can create many things and one being god, how is it that some gods are more real then others.

If islam is going to kill my ego then suicide would be my choice would it not. Islam and all religion is nothing but ego. God should wrap a bomb around his neck and show us just how much he cares. It`s not my ego it`s yours that pit`s one god vs another.

As far as what you did not get at the end of my last post, it`s simple. Any god would be embarrassed of it`s so called creation.

Edited February 20, 2012 by The Silver Thong

[the-Unexpected-Soul]

First off I sympathize with your nation and what it going through. How is that such could take place.

thank you, realy appreciate it, but i would like to tell that i support president bashar al assad for reasons

i may talk about them in another thread, what we have currently really is uneducated Muslim extremists (mostly from the Muslim brother hood)

who is dreaming of taking over the country whom never had the chance to practice their backwardness in it , they think we are another Egypt or Libya

of course they are Heavily supported by almost every body in this earth LOL any way leave that to another thread...

Is it that god, your god has turned a blind eye or is it that your god does not care about nations let alone people.

he want to punish us all and make us suffer what you gona do about it, after all he own every atom in our body and the rest of existence

so he can do what ever he want with his creation, (Logic)

The world has many gods and always has. Has one of these gods ever done anything. Could you please mention something your god has done that no other has not.

Well your definition of god is different than mine, as i believe that any thing that is within this existence is created which is

the opposite of god who is the creator which created the whole existence

Yes man can create many things and one being god, how is it that some gods are more real then others.

logic and evidence

If islam is going to kill my ego then suicide would be my choice would it not. Islam and all religion is nothing but ego. God should wrap a bomb around his neck and show us just how much he cares. It`s not my ego it`s yours that pit`s one god vs another.

it's forbidden in Islam to commit suicide because this is also ego and it's also giving up the hope in god mercy

ALLAH says: Do not kill yourselves, for ALLAH is compassionate towards you. Whoever does so, in transgression and wrongfully, We shall roast in a fire, and that is an easy matter for ALLAH. (an-Nisaa 4:29-30)

Abu Hurayrah (R.A) narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of ALLAH be upon him) said: “Whoever throws himself down from a mountain and kills himself will be in the Fire of Hell, throwing himself down therein for ever and ever. Whoever takes poison and kills himself, his poison will be in his hand and he will be sipping it in the Fire of Hell for ever and ever. Whoever kills himself with a piece of iron, that piece of iron will be in his hand and he will be stabbing himself in the stomach with it in the Fire of Hell, for ever and ever.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5442; Muslim, 109.

It was narrated from Thaabit ibn al-Dahhaak (R.A) that the Messenger of ALLAH (peace and blessings of ALLAH be upon him) said: “Whoever kills himself with something in this world will be punished with it on the Day of Resurrection.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5700; Muslim, 110.

[RavenHawk]

Allah is not a pagan god nor the moon god , for god sake, Please Study Islamic Perspective more, Allah in the Islamic, is the God which is completly

separated from all other creations that he created , so there is god and there is creation which only existed and continue to exist because of god

so islamic idea of what is God have nothing to do with paganism or the moon , we only use the moon as a symbol

I think you miss the point. Like you said, we use things as symbols. Christianity utilizes a lot of pagan influence but the point isn’t to worship paganism, it was to replace paganism. I.e. Christmas is celebrated during the pagan worship of the Winter Solstice. But does it affect the actual date of the birth of Christ or what is important that we celebrate the birth itself?? But there is a lot of confusion too as worshiping Winter Solstice isn’t necessarily paganism either. At some point in the distant past, there was just one GOD. And after the proverbial *Tower of Babel* cultures diverged. The story of the Golden Calf from the Exodus shows us how quickly Man can lose focus of his creator. A tribe of Semitic peoples (after Babel) drew away from GOD. They still knew who he was but he became neglected and was regulated to a back seat as Allah, the moon god. This entity was still GOD and Mohammed recognized him as such. But the early culture had made him one of a pantheon of deities.

[The Silver Thong]

thank you, realy appreciate it, but i would like to tell that i support president bashar al assad for reasons

i may talk about them in another thread, what we have currently really is uneducated Muslim extremists (mostly from the Muslim brother hood)

who is dreaming of taking over the country whom never had the chance to practice their backwardness in it , they think we are another Egypt or Libya

of course they are Heavily supported by almost every body in this earth LOL any way leave that to another thread...

he want to punish us all and make us suffer what you gona do about it, after all he own every atom in our body and the rest of existence

so he can do what ever he want with his creation, (Logic)

Well your definition of god is different than mine, as i believe that any thing that is within this existence is created which is

the opposite of god who is the creator which created the whole existence

logic and evidence

it's forbidden in Islam to commit suicide because this is also ego and it's also giving up the hope in god mercy

ALLAH says: Do not kill yourselves, for ALLAH is compassionate towards you. Whoever does so, in transgression and wrongfully, We shall roast in a fire, and that is an easy matter for ALLAH. (an-Nisaa 4:29-30)

Abu Hurayrah (R.A) narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of ALLAH be upon him) said: “Whoever throws himself down from a mountain and kills himself will be in the Fire of Hell, throwing himself down therein for ever and ever. Whoever takes poison and kills himself, his poison will be in his hand and he will be sipping it in the Fire of Hell for ever and ever. Whoever kills himself with a piece of iron, that piece of iron will be in his hand and he will be stabbing himself in the stomach with it in the Fire of Hell, for ever and ever.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5442; Muslim, 109.

It was narrated from Thaabit ibn al-Dahhaak (R.A) that the Messenger of ALLAH (peace and blessings of ALLAH be upon him) said: “Whoever kills himself with something in this world will be punished with it on the Day of Resurrection.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5700; Muslim, 110.

So you support a religious dictator. This is my entire point. Your religion dictates it does not allow a freedom. I would be murderded in your nation for a simple difference of belief.

As far as being backwards any nation that takes the word of a god is backward as that word can mean anything. The man spouting gods word should be accused of blasphemy as that man or women can do no such thing.

God owns nothing of us as it gave us everything we are. A god that requires our malevolence to satisfy it`s own personal sickness aka hate I need nothing of.

People that require such a sick god deserve what pretend after life they get. Do not for one second think your god is some what Superior as all as weak as you or me. Your take on Islam is yours and yours alone, however dying in the name of god a pretend being is acceptable in your belief. Suicide is honored and you know it. Do not blaim the radicals as any fundimentalist is a radical. There are very few religions that practice what they preach.

[odas]

No, not every fundamentalist is a radical. Being fundamental and radcal are two seperate things, completely.