Prove to me that God exists.

[Mr Walker]

You see, god doesn't mind watching millions of people die in the holocaust, but he'll help a lone senior be cured of cancer. That's what I don't understand... Prayer has been proven to work, according to MrWalker, however... it didn't work for the millions who died in the holocaust.

How do you knoaw this? At university and while an atheist, I was actually involved in a study of holocaust survivors. As a young man one of my indelible memories is of their tattoos and their eyes. It made real what had only been history to me.

I talked to many about their experiences in the camps. ONE of the things they generally agreed to was the importance of their faith in both the manner of the deaths of people, and in their survival. The comnuity of belief helped them all, both those who died and those who survived. And, apart from the ones killed without a chance most of the survivors attributed the differnce between life and death to their faith which made them refuse to surrener life which encouraged them to share and support each other thus increasing the physicla chances of their survival To them, not just prayer, but a relatinshp with a living god, made a great deal of positive differnce to them. We all die. It is the "manner" of our life and our death which we can control.

so yes, prayer worked for most of the survivors I talked to, and they observed it working for those who died. Prayer may not be able to alter our date with death, but it can radically affect how we "go to" that death, in psychological terms. There are a number of studies on this very issue, particularly looking at the camps.

[Alienated Being]

This statement is demonstrably untrue, but also illustrates your pre-occupation with christianity as a religious form. People "believe" in god as a psychological/default.

No, we don't believe in God as a default. If religion wasn't preached in society, I can almost guarantee you that everybody would invest their belief in science and logic, not a silly all-knowing deity. They would question, of course, how everything came into being, however... nobody is BORN believing in God; however, humans are BORN to question... but that doesn't indicate we are programmed, prior to birth, to invest belief in God... it is not a DEFAULT at all.

It is constructed into the way we think about our environment from birth. Humans actually have to be taught NOT to consider god as a part of their environment and NOT to consider god as an explanation for wha they observe occuring in their environment. This has been conclusively demonstrated by studies with very young children around the world.

The minds of children are very fickle and naive. I was always taught to believe in god from a young age, and I did for a very, very long time. I did because it was constantly preached by everybody around me, yet I made the conscious, logical decision in becoming an atheist simply because there wasn't enough evidence to suggest the existence of such a being... and there still isn't. You say, "personal experience suggests otherwise"... I say... "can you prove that what occurred to you can not be explained in a more mundane, pragmatic context?".

So christian dogma has nothing to do with humans innate construction of gods. It may, of course, inform the particlar shape or pattern they use to construct god, or to perceive god, or to interpret god. But without christianity, humans would (and always have long before and beyond the reaches of christianity) constructed perceived and acknowledged the presence of god(s)

If god wasn't preached, then we wouldn't have any belief in god; we would invest all of our beliefs into science, logic and rationalization, especially with the availability of information via the Internet. God was created simply because we couldn't logically deduce the origin of our existence thousands of years ago. There were some mighty creative people back in the day. "I wonder where we came from... maybe we were created by some higher power?". Cavemen did not invest a belief in a deity. They did, however, have rituals involving death... but, there's no conclusive evidence to suggest that cavemen or any of our other ancestors invested belief in a deity.

So history also demonstrates conclusively that humans do not need to be taught about the existence of god(s) They find god(s) individually, via the workings of their minds, (or their intellectual reasonings) and their hearts(or emotions)

That is why only sapient, self aware, beings can construct or perceive the presence of god(s)

Societies have long been preaching the non existence of god, yet even now, only about 5% of humanity "admits to" being atheist.

Society is still very much subjected to Christian dogma... We see it in movies, we see it on TV, in magazines, on billboards, everywhere... hell, even the mantras "God dammit", "God damn you", "Jesus Christ", "God help me", "Holy ****" are used by pretty much everybody. Hell, we even have a holiday called Christmas. If a young child heard that, they would say "What's god?" or "Who's Jesus Christ?"... or "Why do we call it Christmas?"

[Alienated Being]

I talked to many about their experiences in the camps. ONE of the things they generally agreed to was the importance of their faith in both the manner of the deaths of people, and in their survival. The comnuity of belief helped them all, both those who died and those who survived. And, apart from the ones killed without a chance most of the survivors attributed the differnce between life and death to their faith which made them refuse to surrener life which encouraged them to share and support each other thus increasing the physicla chances of their survival To them, not just prayer, but a relatinshp with a living god, made a great deal of positive differnce to them. We all die. It is the "manner" of our life and our death which we can control.

so yes, prayer worked for most of the survivors I talked to, and they observed it working for those who died. Prayer may not be able to alter our date with death, but it can radically affect how we "go to" that death, in psychological terms. There are a number of studies on this very issue, particularly looking at the camps.

Exactly - their faith gave them hope, but that doesn't make a god real...

What about the millions that actually died, though? Was their relationship with god not strong enough? Apparently not enough prayer was conducted.

[Habitat]

You only believe in god as a result of Christian dogma in society. If people preached god's nonexistence... you wouldn't believe in him....

Probably more a case of believing in God in spite of "Christian dogma in society", actually. But if you are not open to learn, the chances are you won't.

[Alienated Being]

Probably more a case of believing in God in spite of "Christian dogma in society", actually. But if you are not open to learn, the chances are you won't.

I was opened to learn for about 20 years, and I learned some very important things.

1. There's no convincing evidence for a god, other than a book which people appear to have labeled as being "irrefutable, undeniable evidence".

2. Personal accounts does not constitute as being irrefutable evidence, considering that there are a great many variables involved in the experience equation.

3. Religion can actually negatively impact one's life in comparison to providing benefit, depending on the level of belief invested.

4. Coincidences are just that - coincidences.

5. There are no miracles - just luck.

I could go on... and on...

[Cybele]

No, we don't believe in God as a default. If religion wasn't preached in society, I can almost guarantee you that everybody would invest their belief in science and logic, not a silly all-knowing deity.

Based on my exposure to various readings in anthropology, I believe that it is a natural human tendency, which has been reinforced by natural selection, to attribute agency when at all possible and to anthropomorphize nature. Therefore, I see spirituality and religion as natural and almost certainly inevitable byproducts of human psychology.

We are ridiculously self-important to believe that invisible, higher beings would care about us, aren't we? But perhaps that belief is beneficial in some way.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Cybele

[Alienated Being]

Based on my exposure to various readings in anthropology, I believe that it is a natural human tendency, which has been reinforced by natural selection, to attribute agency when at all possible and to anthropomorphize nature. Therefore, I see spirituality and religion as natural and almost certainly inevitable byproducts of human psychology.

We are ridiculously self-important to believe that invisible, higher beings would care about us, aren't we? But perhaps that belief is beneficial in some way.

I am actually rather curious as to the details of these readings. Care to provide some relevant sources? I would greatly appreciate this. Thanks.

[Lion6969]

You see, god doesn't mind watching millions of people die in the holocaust, but he'll help a lone senior be cured of cancer. That's what I don't understand... Prayer has been proven to work, according to MrWalker, however... it didn't work for the millions who died in the holocaust.

The holocaust was a result of an atheistic philosophy fascism, other branches include capitalism and communism. How can you blame human actions on god, bullets don't kill people, people kill people. Infact secular atheistic history is very short in human history terms yet more people have died in name of these atheistic philosophies than the number died in wars to do with religion!

you say god sat and watched those human express their free wills to the extreme, but that same event also rallied the rest of us to wipe out this evil, aid the needy, basically to good for our fellow humans. That's free will, he allowed one group one extremity, while allowing the majority to come together and do something extreme on the other end of the scale, self sacrifices, feeding, aiding, curing, rebuilding, etc etc. As a result we came together to good for all of us and the world, still to this day we fight to make sure such evil does not resurface. You see your atheist world view is bleak, while my theist world view is positive. You see those lost lives lost in vein, I see it the other way.

[Alienated Being]

The holocaust was a result of an atheistic philosophy fascism, other branches include capitalism and communism. How can you blame human actions on god, bullets don't kill people, people kill people. Infact secular atheistic history is very short in human history terms yet more people have died in name of these atheistic philosophies than the number died in wars to do with religion!

I am curious as to how you deduced "atheistic philosophy" from the equation... What evidence do we have that atheism was involved in the holocaust? I am curious. Is it an implication regarding Hitler's religious standing?

you say god sat and watched those human express their free wills to the extreme, but that same event also rallied the rest of us to wipe out this evil, aid the needy, basically to good for our fellow humans. That's free will, he allowed one group one extremity, while allowing the majority to come together and do something extreme on the other end of the scale, self sacrifices, feeding, aiding, curing, rebuilding, etc etc. As a result we came together to good for all of us and the world, still to this day we fight to make sure such evil does not resurface. You see your atheist world view is bleak, while my theist world view is positive. You see those lost lives lost in vein, I see it the other way.

So, you're saying that millions died, so thousands more could die in order to bring the event to a halt? Doesn't make much sense, as more casualties were lost in the process of pacifying the event...

[Lion6969]

I am curious as to how you deduced "atheistic philosophy" from the equation... What evidence do we have that atheism was involved in the holocaust? I am curious. Is it an implication regarding Hitler's religious standing?

Clearly your not a true atheist IMO, like I used to be and understood it's philosophical roots and implications. Secular philosophies are based and rooted in atheistic philosophies, which branch off. One of those branches is fascism. Hitler was allegedly Christian but his campaign was a secular campaign in name of a secular philosophy ie fascism. God had no hand in it.

So, you're saying that millions died, so thousands more could die in order to bring the event to a halt? Doesn't make much sense, as more casualties were lost in the process of pacifying the event...

No! I am saying the nazis expressed their free will and if god butts in everytime then that renders free will pointless! They did what they did in name of their ideology not in name of any god. Millions died before we woke up to unite (it took millions of Jews to fie before we woke up and united). You see something very bleak, those millions suffered and had traumatic deaths, but in accordance with atheist thought, it's tough luck, that's how the cookie crumbles, you went out in an unfortunate way, where as i believe they are destined to be with god and heaven, martyred for simply being Jewish! See I can find solice in the bleakest of situations. This event allowed us to unite and do something good too, an opportunity to serve our fellow humans and our future generations to prevent such tragedies. You see only suffering pain, I see them too, but I also see opportunity to do greater good and unite and make a change!

[Habitat]

I doubt whether you, AB, have considered the implications of intervention in all manner of human tragedies, you might argue that disastrous earthquakes and tsunamis and the like should be prevented by this God. Not to mention droughts and famines and disease epidemics. How is the Earth supposed to support exponential population growth, then, when there are no countervailing forces ?

Edited February 19, 2012 by Habitat

[Cybele]

I am actually rather curious as to the details of these readings. Care to provide some relevant sources? I would greatly appreciate this. Thanks.

This is the primary book used in an anthropology of religion class I took my final year of college. It's not technically a textbook, but a collection of essays by prominent anthropologists. It's not exactly an easy pleasure read, in my experience, though I haven't picked it up about 4 years.

http://www.amazon.com/Anthropology-Religion-Blackwell-Anthologies-Cultural/dp/0631221131/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1329618433&sr=8-2

There is also one article we read for the class (not in the book) which stands out in my mind. I'm trying to recall the author's name...it was Guenter, Gunter, Gunther, something like that.

Anyways, the author was arguing that it would be a survival advantage to assume agency in the face of ambiguous stimuli. For example, it is better to assume that a funny looking stick on a trail is a snake than to mistake a snake for a stick. Similarly, it is adaptive to assume that that rustle in the bushes at night is a dangerous animal. Those who assume danger and react instinctively were more likely to survive predators. Of course, this is not just a human reaction, but an animal one. It may explain, in my opinion, why people have been historically prone to create invisible, malicious beings (i.e.-demons) they fear are out to torment them.

As for anthropomorphizing nature, I can't recall any one source from which I drew this. I think it common sense for us to try to relate nature to our human desires--to see aspects of ourselves in nature--because we are so programmed to live in social units and to relate to human faces and emotions--even from early infancy. If we believe there are human-like intelligences existing in nature which are more powerful than we are, we can attempt to exert control over nature and our lives by appealing to them and worshiping them.

I'm sure there are relevant articles in anthropology journals available online. I'll check some out in a minute and see if I can come up with something.

Edit: This was probably the author I was thinking of: http://books.google.com/books?id=dZNAQh6TuwIC&dq=Faces+in+the+Clouds:+A+New+Theory+of+Religion&printsec=frontcover&hl=en#v=onepage&q=Faces%20in%20the%20Clouds%3A%20A%20New%20Theory%20of%20Religion&f=false

Edited February 19, 2012 by Cybele

[Alienated Being]

Clearly your not a true atheist IMO, like I used to be and understood it's philosophical roots and implications. Secular philosophies are based and rooted in atheistic philosophies, which branch off. One of those branches is fascism. Hitler was allegedly Christian but his campaign was a secular campaign in name of a secular philosophy ie fascism. God had no hand in it.

You're right, god didn't have a hand in it. That's the point... he did nothing.

No! I am saying the nazis expressed their free will and if god butts in everytime then that renders free will pointless! They did what they did in name of their ideology not in name of any god. Millions died before we woke up to unite (it took millions of Jews to fie before we woke up and united). You see something very bleak, those millions suffered and had traumatic deaths, but in accordance with atheist thought, it's tough luck, that's how the cookie crumbles, you went out in an unfortunate way, where as i believe they are destined to be with god and heaven, martyred for simply being Jewish! See I can find solice in the bleakest of situations. This event allowed us to unite and do something good too, an opportunity to serve our fellow humans and our future generations to prevent such tragedies. You see only suffering pain, I see them too, but I also see opportunity to do greater good and unite and make a change!

I think you are completely and utterly foolish to believe in something so ridiculous. They were destined to be with god, you say? And, just because you think you find "solace" in a situation, that doesn't pacify it. Millions died for a ridiculous, unnecessary cause. I am a realist. I don't try to see the sunshine and rainbows in a very depressing, tragic situation such as the holocaust.

[Alienated Being]

I doubt whether you, AB, have considered the implications of intervention in all manner of human tragedies, you might argue that disastrous earthquakes and tsunamis and the like should be prevented by this God. Not to mention droughts and famines and disease epidemics. How is the Earth supposed to support exponential population growth, then, when there are no countervailing forces ?

It's not, that's the thing. The population is increasing ever-so-rapidly. Some believe that we could hit the 15 - 20 billion mark by 2100...

[Habitat]

It's not, that's the thing. The population is increasing ever-so-rapidly. Some believe that we could hit the 15 - 20 billion mark by 2100...

Which means "God" ought to have intervened to stop what will inevitably be a massive correction, if there was a God ?

[Alienated Being]

Which means "God" ought to have intervened to stop what will inevitably be a massive correction, if there was a God ?

I never said such a thing. I was referring to the statement that countervailing forces were required to prevent an exponential growth in population which, obviously, is preposterous.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Alienated Being

[Lion6969]

You're right, god didn't have a hand in it. That's the point... he did nothing.

why do you expect god to butt in when he allows you to express your free will?

I think you are completely and utterly foolish to believe in something so ridiculous. They were destined to be with god, you say? And, just because you think you find "solace" in a situation, that doesn't pacify it. Millions died for a ridiculous, unnecessary cause. I am a realist. I don't try to see the sunshine and rainbows in a very depressing, tragic situation such as the holocaust.

millions died for an atheistic philosophy…you world view is bleak and negative, not realist nor rationalist. Atheism comes from an irrational perspective. When I say they with god I do so out of belief and my world view, which transcends beyond your bleak world view. For you the holocaust was tragic as it was for all of us, but for your world view has a bleak outlook once you follow it through to it's logical end then to you life is it, you die that's the end, so for those who suffered in the holocaust have no sense of justice be it ultimate, and its tough cookie you went out in an unfortunate tragic way. For us god believers it's just as tragic but our world view and philosophy allows us to reconcile in line with our beliefs that there is ultimate justice, a better place, and a purpose to our existence. You don't have to agree, that's fine. However our philosophy and basis of beliefs are not mere fantasies or speculation they are also based on rational, logical foundations etc. That's beside the point really, but there is no denying that atheism is a dark bleak view of our existence stemming from an irrational self defeatist philosophy (you wont know much about this though).

[Alienated Being]

why do you expect god to butt in when he allows you to express your free will?

When do you expect god to help? I am also curious why he would help a lone senior overcome their illness of cancer, yet he wouldn't help the millions of innocent Jews who were murdered in concentration camps. Why would he reserve somebody a parking spot, when he couldn't help save the millions of Jews??

millions died for an atheistic philosophy…you world view is bleak and negative, not realist nor rationalist. Atheism comes from an irrational perspective. When I say they with god I do so out of belief and my world view, which transcends beyond your bleak world view. For you the holocaust was tragic as it was for all of us, but for your world view has a bleak outlook once you follow it through to it's logical end then to you life is it, you die that's the end, so for those who suffered in the holocaust have no sense of justice be it ultimate, and its tough cookie you went out in an unfortunate tragic way. For us god believers it's just as tragic but our world view and philosophy allows us to reconcile in line with our beliefs that there is ultimate justice, a better place, and a purpose to our existence. You don't have to agree, that's fine. However our philosophy and basis of beliefs are not mere fantasies or speculation they are also based on rational, logical foundations etc. That's beside the point really, but there is no denying that atheism is a dark bleak view of our existence stemming from an irrational self defeatist philosophy (you wont know much about this though).

I'd hardly consider myself a follower in self-defeatist philosophy, considering the amount of hurdles that I have encountered and triumphed over... but, sure. Why not?

Edited February 19, 2012 by Alienated Being

[Lion6969]

When do you expect god to help? I am also curious why he would help a lone senior overcome their illness of cancer, yet he wouldn't help the millions of innocent Jews who were murdered in concentration camps. Why would he reserve somebody a parking spot, when he couldn't help save the millions of Jews??

Maybe cause the senior is has no Helpers, nothing but god can help him, the holocaust was preventable and could have been stopped much earlier, human error caused it human error prolonged, maybe the old mans time simply has not come yet. This only god knows basically. But the two are not the same, one has no cure the other could be stopped by us. But in honesty who god helps and when is his wisdom, if an all wise god exists, then we cannot fully comprehend his wisdom.

I'd hardly consider myself a follower in self-defeatist philosophy, considering the amount of hurdles that I have encountered and triumphed over... but, sure. Why not?

you don't even know the philosophy nor it's premises.

[Alienated Being]

Maybe cause the senior is has no Helpers, nothing but god can help him, the holocaust was preventable and could have been stopped much earlier, human error caused it human error prolonged, maybe the old mans time simply has not come yet. This only god knows basically. But the two are not the same, one has no cure the other could be stopped by us. But in honesty who god helps and when is his wisdom, if an all wise god exists, then we cannot fully comprehend his wisdom.

The fact of the matter is, however... we don't have any evidence for a god whatsoever. Personal experiences don't constitute as being evidence for anything, other than an unexplained personal experience (which, apparently, indicates god to you believers).

you don't even know the philosophy nor it's premises.

I think I have a pretty good idea.

[Rlyeh]

The holocaust was a result of an atheistic philosophy fascism

If you have to make up **** like this, you've already lost.

[+Paranoid Android]

PA

Ah, so you took the bait .

I couldn't help it. I know I've said the same thing before, it just seemed a necessary point to respond.

It is a perilous thing to speculate about the motives and interests of another species. Imagine the perils of speculating about another order of being altogether.

Indeed, and yet people such as Silver Thong speculate on God's motives all the time and then impose their own views on what they believe God should be. They then post on forums such as this to definitively (from their point of view) prove that God either doesn't exist or is unconcerned with humanity. I was simply questioning the assumption behind that idea. Yes, I am doing the same and applying my own set of assumptions. However, I am admitting that I do this because I believe that our understanding of God can be known through the Bible. Sure, I could be wrong, but it doesn't invalidate my questioning of ST's assumptions about God's actions. Does it?

You betcha.

I guess there's no disagreement here then

[+Paranoid Android]

I have to quote EB

``It is a perilous thing to speculate about the motives and interests of another species. Imagine the perils of speculating about another order of being altogether.``

One can never speak for a god or even try to explain some motive for such. When people try to do so it fails every time.

To quote your own post:

Gods all knowing proves he either does not exist or that he is a cold blooded killer and is indifferent to us.

I could have chosen several times where you say a variation of this, but the point is much the same - If one can never speak for a God then why are you doing so here? By saying that God must be either a or b, you are speaking for God. I can only assume that you are just trying to argue our point as more valid than those who believe????

~ PA

Edited February 19, 2012 by Paranoid Android

[+Paranoid Android]

Well he sure shouldn't be going out making everyone's life as miserable as possible.

Are you saying he is going out of his way to make everyone's life as miserable as possible? I know many people (including myself) that would argue that point. We all have things we want to be different (even me), and it can seem sometimes that life is unfair and miserable. And I hope you are not one of those clinically depressed individuals who cannot see good in life (I'm not being mean, my mother is clinically depressed and needs to see specialists regularly to survive). To think that God intentionally subjugates everyone to as much misery as possible is just a total misunderstanding of life, in my opinion. I hope that is not how you see life, I truly feel for people in that situation.

~ Regards,

Edited February 19, 2012 by Paranoid Android

[+Paranoid Android]

You see, god doesn't mind watching millions of people die in the holocaust, but he'll help a lone senior be cured of cancer. That's what I don't understand... Prayer has been proven to work, according to MrWalker, however... it didn't work for the millions who died in the holocaust.

It depends. If by this you mean that God did not grant their prayers with an automatic "YES, I WILL FREE YOU FROM MORTAL DANGER" then perhaps you may have a point. But even for those who died that does not mean that God did not answer their prayers in another manner.

Exactly - their faith gave them hope, but that doesn't make a god real...

What about the millions that actually died, though? Was their relationship with god not strong enough? Apparently not enough prayer was conducted.

Even those who died probably found solace in their belief in God. While this may be put down to entirely human concepts, who's to say that this isn't God answering their prayers? Edited February 19, 2012 by Paranoid Android