[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[Otharus]

Btw, not the spoil the fun, but you have been posting many scans from Rolf Bremmer's Dutch article..... and I think I recognize here and there parts I have read online... but in English. I know I have posted links to online English books by his hand. You might want to check these online books first, and before you start translating.

OK thanks, I hadn't started translating yet.

Have a good read of the last part, "Besluit".

The map about "twisken" (fig.4) is very interesting too.

[Abramelin]

OK thanks, I hadn't started translating yet.

Have a good read of the last part, "Besluit".

The map about "twisken" (fig.4) is very interesting too.

What you could do is this: translate a sentence with some very typical (= not general) words in it, using your best English. Then Google the whole sentence, add "Bremmer"" to the search terms (= that sentence, no quotation marks), and if it is online it will most probably be on the 'Booksgoogle' site (but always only parts of his books are online overthere). I will try it myself; I know it's a lot of work translating all this into English, and why not make it a bit more easy for yourself?

=

I found every of these book-scans interesting, lol.

[Abramelin]

Bold #1 - It is not personally believed that you have qualified data to support this bold proclamation. In addition, as has been previously presented, Masse utilized a methodology not unlike your own in regards to his utilization of oral histories. While this methodology is subject to scrutiny and not one that would be of my own personal preference, Masse's data base and expertise are notably more extensive than your own.

Your continuous derogatory attacks on me, obviously bolstered by your anonymity, convinced me some time ago that your prejudices and a clear disrespect for the views of others prevent you from comprehending any alternative viewpoints. You denounce my expertise and data although you have not even read my book. Do not, however, waste your money now.

Alewyn, of all people who posts on this board, I think Swede is one of the most polite people I have had the pleasure to read posts of.

He doesn't agree with your theory based on what he knows, and that's about it.

A day ago you accuse the UM site of suppressing information (which they don't), and today again, you accuse Swede of a personal attack.

And it's not too long ago you accused me of 'deliberately' doing this or that, twisting your posts, having some sort of 'agenda', and all that paranoid (yes!) bullcrap.

If I posted all these remarks of yours to people who do not agree with your theory in one post, some other people reading my post might start worrying about your mental health.

Alewyn, you wrote a book about a controversial manuscript. You used scientific sources to prove your theory. Then you should expect people who live in that scientific community to be critical about your book.

That's how things go.

If you want to be taken seriously, you will have to accept that there are people who do not agree with your theory.

.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Puzz, I found a site (that's, amongst other things, about the Veneti) I think you will be interested in too.

When Julius Caesar conquered Gaul he also had to subdue the seaborne tribe of the Veneti.

The Romans bragged that they got them all, killing or enslaving them. This seems to be a very convenient piece of self-serving propaganda, and I for one do not believe it.

A tribe which specialised in ocean travel and the use of boats would be difficult, if not impossible, to bottle up. A good many of them would have been able to slip away in the face of an attempted capture by the Romans.

Name construction

A few centuries later the geographer Ptolemy notes that the Venicones lived in north-eastern Britain (in the region of Fife and on both banks of the Tay to the north), and a tribe called the Venicnii in north Ireland (Donnegal). To my eye this is quite obviously the same name, Venic + '-on' or '-n'.

=

Venet was probably pronounced 'Wened' by that time (AD 100-300), and soon enough, due to the addition of a 'g', settled into its modern spelling of Gwynedd.

=

Origins

Paul Johnstone's Sea-Craft of Prehistory involves a useful discussion of skin boats and leather sails. An interesting sidebar is the Veneti use of leather sails on their boats.

Julius Caesar remarked on the Veneti using leather sails, an odd practice from the viewpoint of anyone accustomed to Mediterranean ships. It indicates an origin for the Veneti far from civilisation and its woven sails - which sails they would have encountered if the tribe developed in situ in Armorica, as traders constantly sailed to nearby Dumnonia to purchase tin.

It also indicates an origin somewhere where ships would be needed, a shore or an island. This leaves us with the islands of Britain and Ireland, the shore of Gaul east of Britain, and the region of Scandinavia and the Baltic Sea. Their ships were wood, so an origin in Ireland is doubtful. Their sails were leather, so an origin in Britain is doubtful. Scandinavia itself was inhabited by Germanic and Finnic tribes. This leaves us with the areas of the Belgae in northern Gaul, the Jutland peninsula, and the southern/eastern shores of the Baltic.

Just such a boat seems to have been found at Bruges, Belgium, dated to the second or third century AD (see the Online Library). And from Bad Kreuznach, a mosaic showing such a boat is featured in figure 3 of an Archaeology Data Service report (see link on the right).

=

There were Veneti in the Baltic along the shore in the region of the Oder and Vistula rivers.

The name itself means 'white' in Common Gaulish. It is cognate to the English words 'white' and 'winter'. It might mean 'the winter people', or it might mean 'the blonds' (white hair). Or it more likely comes from an ancient leader or founder of the tribe who might have been blond and nicknamed 'White'.

One can envision a possible migration of Veneti from the Vistula by sea to Armorica. Then a flight of survivors from Armorica to Fife in Scotland and Donnegal in Ireland. Then Romanised Veneti of Fife move into western and northern Wales and found the kingdoms of Gwynedd and Ceredigion.

http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/RomanVenicones01.htm

.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Abramelin

[Swede]

Your continuous derogatory attacks on me, obviously bolstered by your anonymity, convinced me some time ago that your prejudices and a clear disrespect for the views of others prevent you from comprehending any alternative viewpoints. You denounce my expertise and data although you have not even read my book. Do not, however, waste your money now.

The following response is for the benefit of other readers.

Herewith the scenario around the Burckle impact:

1. Scientists from the Holocene Impact Working Group (HIWG) theorize that the Burckle Impact happened in the 3rd millennium BC.

2. They base their theory on the 200 meter high Fenambosy chevron dunes on the Island of Madagascar, some 1500 kilometers from the impact site.

3. The size of the dunes (after 4 to 5 thousand years), the distance from the impact site and the 3800 meter deep location of the impact crater in the Indian Ocean, tells us that the resultant tsunami must have been well over 200 meters high. In fact, these scientists tell us that the Burckle impact had the power of several million nuclear warheads.

4. The force of the impact would most likely have created numerous earthquakes which in turn would have created more tsunamis all around the globe.

5. The size of the initial impact tsunami and the resultant earthquake generated tsunamis would have advance several hundred kilometers, inter alia, up the Indus Valley.

6. It may well be that the impact disturbed the earth's tectonic plates, which in turn could also have resulted in volcanic eruptions as far away as Greenland (Hekla).

7. Evidence of all of the above is found in numerous paleoclimatic, geological and archaeological records. Dr. Benny Peiser referred to some 500 excavation reports, research papers and scientific abstracts already in 1997. Today there would be many more.

8. Dr. Abbot and Dr Masse are both members of the HIWG but they give different dates for the Burckle Impact. Dr. Abott gives a date of 2500 BC and Dr. Masse's date is 2800 BC. Clearly, both can be wrong but they cannot both be right.

9. It is generally accepted that the Harappan Urban Civilization in Pakistan was destroyed in ca 2200 BC. As with the Akkadian Empire's demise around the same time, the increased salt content of the ground around these sites is indicative of sea water inundations which caused or contributed to their demise.

10. If either Dr Abott's date of 2500 BC (300 years before the demise if these civilizations), or Dr. Masse's date of 2800 BC (600 years before) is correct, there would not have been a Harappan Urban Civilization or an Akkadian empire to be destroyed in 2200 BC. They would have been destroyed earlier and there would not have been sufficient time to have recovered from an earlier catastrophe and to have developed to the level we find in the archaeological records. The Harrapan Urban Civilization, in any event, never recovered after the 2200 BC event.

11. In addition, if either Dr. Abbot or Dr. Masse is correct, then we must find another cause for the tsunamis that destroyed these civilizations (including China and Egypt). We have an abundance of evidence of global paleo-tsunamis in 2200 BC. What then cause these tsunamis, seismicity, resultant climate change and the 300 year aridification event, etc. etc.?

That, in a nutshell, and without quoting all the other evidence, is why I disagree with both Dr. Abbot's and Dr. Masse's dates.

Herewith the scenario around the Burckle impact:

1. Scientists from the Holocene Impact Working Group (HIWG) theorize that the Burckle Impact happened in the 3rd millennium BC.

2. They base their theory on the 200 meter high Fenambosy chevron dunes on the Island of Madagascar, some 1500 kilometers from the impact site.

3. The size of the dunes (after 4 to 5 thousand years), the distance from the impact site and the 3800 meter deep location of the impact crater in the Indian Ocean, tells us that the resultant tsunami must have been well over 200 meters high. In fact, these scientists tell us that the Burckle impact had the power of several million nuclear warheads.

Yes, though keep in mind that the research of the HIWG is in its early stages and the Burckle crater is not yet even fully confirmed.

4. The force of the impact would most likely have created numerous earthquakes which in turn would have created more tsunamis all around the globe.

This is generally speculation on your part and is not supported by the data of even the HIGW as per:

http://elib.sfu-kras.ru/bitstream/2311/1636/1/03_.pdf

5. The size of the initial impact tsunami and the resultant earthquake generated tsunamis would have advance several hundred kilometers, inter alia, up the Indus Valley.

This is simply incorrect and will be addressed below.

6. It may well be that the impact disturbed the earth’s tectonic plates, which in turn could also have resulted in volcanic eruptions as far away as Greenland (Hekla).

More unsupported speculation on your part as per:

http://www.volcano.si.edu/world/largeeruptions.cfm

7. Evidence of all of the above is found in numerous paleoclimatic, geological and archaeological records. Dr. Benny Peiser referred to some 500 excavation reports, research papers and scientific abstracts already in 1997. Today there would be many more.

Abe has already addressed the Velikovskian bent of this particular group. While you may find their presentation to be sympathetic to your own, their “interpretation” of the data is not necessarily well accepted.

8. Dr. Abbot and Dr Masse are both members of the HIWG but they give different dates for the Burckle Impact. Dr. Abott gives a date of 2500 BC and Dr. Masse’s date is 2800 BC. Clearly, both can be wrong but they cannot both be right.

Poorly phrased argument. One could also conclude that both of the researchers place the event in the early 3^rd millennium, and thus not at all supportive of your position.

9. It is generally accepted that the Harappan Urban Civilization in Pakistan was destroyed in ca 2200 BC. As with the Akkadian Empire’s demise around the same time, the increased salt content of the ground around these sites is indicative of sea water inundations which caused or contributed to their demise.

This statement is intentionally inaccurate. 1) The urban centers of the Indus Valley Civilization (IVC) were not “destroyed”. Such hyperbole is hardly representative of the current research. The long-term effects of increasingly arid conditions in combination with local resource stress and potential socio-political factors led to a diffusion from the earlier population centers. 2) The IVC was at its height from 2600 BC to circa 1900 to 1800 BC, with a gradual decline following this point. For your edification:

http://hzg.academia.edu/CarstenLemmen/Papers/1240117/Bricks_point_to_primarily_social_causes_of_Harappan_decline

https://sites.google.com/site/kalyan97/Nadi

https://sites.google.com/site/kalyan97/Nadi

http://find.galegroup.com/gic/infomark.do?contentSet=EBKS&docType=EBKS.Article&idigest=fb720fd31d9036c1ed2d1f3a0500fcc2&type=retrieve&tabID=T001&prodId=GIC&docId=CX3446500288&userGroupName=itsbtrial&version=1.0&searchType=BasicSearchForm&source=gale

10. If either Dr Abott’s date of 2500 BC (300 years before the demise if these civilizations), or Dr. Masse’s date of 2800 BC (600 years before) is correct, there would not have been a Harappan Urban Civilization or an Akkadian empire to be destroyed in 2200 BC. They would have been destroyed earlier and there would not have been sufficient time to have recovered from an earlier catastrophe and to have developed to the level we find in the archaeological records. The Harrapan Urban Civilization, in any event, never recovered after the 2200 BC event.

As such claims as the “destruction” of the IVC have already been demonstrated to be inaccurate, this paragraph is of no consequence. One may wish to be conscious of faulty presumptions/presentations as a foundation for one’s case.

11. In addition, if either Dr. Abbot or Dr. Masse is correct, then we must find another cause for the tsunamis that destroyed these civilizations (including China and Egypt). We have an abundance of evidence of global paleo-tsunamis in 2200 BC. What then cause these tsunamis, seismicity, resultant climate change and the 300 year aridification event, etc. etc.

There would appear to be no indication that the civilizations referenced were “destroyed” by tsunamis. 1) The civilizations were not “destroyed”. 2) Are you now suggesting that (for example) 4rth Dynasty Egypt was impacted by a tsunami?

That, in a nutshell, and without quoting all the other evidence, is why I disagree with both Dr. Abbot’s and Dr. Masse’s dates.

As is apparent from the above, your argument is tragically flawed and based upon poorly understood/interpreted data.

Due to potential formatting difficulties, the additional data referred to above will follow in a subsequent presentation.

.

[Swede]

Alewyn - While, as previously noted, the research of the HIWG is in its infancy and not yet well verified, let us utilize their data to investigate the validity of your speculations. From their research we can glean the following presumptive data:

Diameter of the Burckle Crater = ~29 km. Depth of the crater ~3800 m.

Utilizing the Earth Impact Effect Program of Purdue University and the Imperial College of London, a series of data values were inserted into the program in order to reach kinetic energy figures consistent with the generation of a crater of ~29 km at a depth of 3800 m. The HIWG proposes that the impactor was a comet, therefore the following values were eventually reached.

Inputs:

Distance from Impact: 805.00 km ( = 500.00 miles )

Projectile diameter: 3.55 km ( = 2.20 miles )

Projectile Density: 1500 kg/m³

Impact Velocity: 51.00 km per second ( = 31.70 miles per second )

Impact Angle: 45 degrees

Target Density: 1000 kg/m³

Target Type: Liquid water of depth 3.8 km ( = 2.4 miles ), over crystalline rock.

Final Crater Diameter: 29.4 km ( = 18.3 miles )

Final Crater Depth: 819 meters ( = 2690 feet )

Energy:

Energy before atmospheric entry: 4.57 x 10²² Joules = 1.09 x 10⁷ MegaTons TNT

The average interval between impacts of this size somewhere on Earth during the last 4 billion years is 2.9 x 10⁷years

Major Global Changes:

The Earth is not strongly disturbed by the impact and loses negligible mass.

The impact does not make a noticeable change in the tilt of Earth's axis (< 5 hundredths of a degree).

The impact does not shift the Earth's orbit noticeably.

Another series of data ranges were utilized in order to reflect the effects of an asteroid:

Inputs:

Distance from Impact: 500.00 km ( = 311.00 miles )

Projectile diameter: 2.50 km ( = 1.55 miles )

Projectile Density: 3000 kg/m³

Impact Velocity: 37.00 km per second ( = 23.00 miles per second )

Impact Angle: 45 degrees

Target Density: 1000 kg/m³

Target Type: Liquid water of depth 3.8 km ( = 2.4 miles ), over crystalline rock.

Final Crater Diameter: 29 km ( = 18 miles )

Final Crater Depth: 815 meters ( = 2670 feet )

Energy:

Energy before atmospheric entry: 1.68 x 10²² Joules = 4.01 x 10⁶ MegaTons TNT

The average interval between impacts of this size somewhere on Earth during the last 4 billion years is 1.3 x 10⁷years

Major Global Changes:

The Earth is not strongly disturbed by the impact and loses negligible mass.

The impact does not make a noticeable change in the tilt of Earth's axis (< 5 hundredths of a degree).

The impact does not shift the Earth's orbit noticeably.

A third set of figures was generated utilizing the data in the first set above, with the exception of the distance from impact. In this case the distance utilized was the distance from the proposed Burckle crater to the mouth of the Indus River. Note the impact of the tsunami at the mouth of the river.

Inputs:

Distance from Impact: 6250.00 km ( = 3880.00 miles )

Projectile diameter: 3.55 km ( = 2.20 miles )

Projectile Density: 1500 kg/m³

Impact Velocity: 51.00 km per second ( = 31.70 miles per second )

Impact Angle: 45 degrees

Target Density: 1000 kg/m³

Target Type: Liquid water of depth 3.8 km ( = 2.4 miles ), over crystalline rock.

Tsunami Wave:

The impact-generated tsunami wave arrives approximately 9.1 hours after impact.

Tsunami wave amplitude is between: 17.7 meters ( = 58.1 feet) and 35.4 meters ( = 116.0 feet)

To summarize - In your attempt to validate a more than questionable text, you have utilized methodology quite reflective of "fringe" methodology. The distortion of climatological, geological, archaeological, etc. data does not well support your position and, in fact, places the remainder of your understandings and position in great question. Just as with your clearly discounted position in regards to the Faroe's, your attempt to demonstrate the validity of the OLB via the proposal of a major planetary axial tilt is simply unsupported by any degree of accurate interpretation of the currently available data.

.

[Swede]

I agree a substantial axial tilt does not have much support.

WHat does it really mean by 'the sun rose higher' I wonder - one of the phrases used in the OLB that Alewyn thinks might support the axial tilt idea.

The Nordic Bronze Age was characterized by a warm climate that began with a climate change around 2700 BC (comparable to that of present-day central Germany and northern France). The warm climate permitted a relatively dense population and good farming, for example grapes were grown in Scandinavia at this time. However a small change in climate between 850 BC and 760 BC and a more radical one around 650 BC brought in a deteriorating, wetter and colder climate (sometimes believed to have given rise to the legend of the Fimbulwinter).

http://en.wikipedia....rdic_Bronze_Age

The climate was warmer from c. 2700BC and even though this next date of 850BC doesn't actually correspond to the OLB date of the colder climate setting in, it does show that some kind of weather change made it colder though - that grapes were once grown there and good farming was available, which may correspond to the notion of 'the sun rose higher'...

This essentially brings up a few of points in regards to aspects of cultural anthropology theory (a quite involved topic). First, one is faced with the questionable provenance of the text itself. Next, we have the numerous mythological elements apparent within the text. Then we have the aspect of the interpretation of oral histories and the methodologies that can be applied in order to distinguish between the original elements of the history and the additions/alterations that invariably occur over time. Lastly, we have the time-span itself and the rather cumulative compilation of "mutations".

A comprehensive discussion of the above is rather beyond the capacity of these pages. However, should you be interested in some thought-provoking papers on the topic of the utilization of oral histories as they apply to the interpretation of early historical and archaeological data, there are (from my perspective) two in particular that you may find of interest. While the two authors (Echo Hawk and Mason) approach the topic from quite diametrical perspectives, they essentially do reach a common ground in that any utilization of oral histories must be subjected close interpretive standards, both culturally and temporally.

Access to the papers would likely involve working with your local library/university. Can provide citations should you wish to pursue such. Believe that you would find them quite interesting.

.

[The Puzzler]

Puzz, I found a site (that's, amongst other things, about the Veneti) I think you will be interested in too.

When Julius Caesar conquered Gaul he also had to subdue the seaborne tribe of the Veneti.

The Romans bragged that they got them all, killing or enslaving them. This seems to be a very convenient piece of self-serving propaganda, and I for one do not believe it.

A tribe which specialised in ocean travel and the use of boats would be difficult, if not impossible, to bottle up. A good many of them would have been able to slip away in the face of an attempted capture by the Romans.

Name construction

A few centuries later the geographer Ptolemy notes that the Venicones lived in north-eastern Britain (in the region of Fife and on both banks of the Tay to the north), and a tribe called the Venicnii in north Ireland (Donnegal). To my eye this is quite obviously the same name, Venic + '-on' or '-n'.

=

Venet was probably pronounced 'Wened' by that time (AD 100-300), and soon enough, due to the addition of a 'g', settled into its modern spelling of Gwynedd.

=

Origins

Paul Johnstone's Sea-Craft of Prehistory involves a useful discussion of skin boats and leather sails. An interesting sidebar is the Veneti use of leather sails on their boats.

Julius Caesar remarked on the Veneti using leather sails, an odd practice from the viewpoint of anyone accustomed to Mediterranean ships. It indicates an origin for the Veneti far from civilisation and its woven sails - which sails they would have encountered if the tribe developed in situ in Armorica, as traders constantly sailed to nearby Dumnonia to purchase tin.

It also indicates an origin somewhere where ships would be needed, a shore or an island. This leaves us with the islands of Britain and Ireland, the shore of Gaul east of Britain, and the region of Scandinavia and the Baltic Sea. Their ships were wood, so an origin in Ireland is doubtful. Their sails were leather, so an origin in Britain is doubtful. Scandinavia itself was inhabited by Germanic and Finnic tribes. This leaves us with the areas of the Belgae in northern Gaul, the Jutland peninsula, and the southern/eastern shores of the Baltic.

Just such a boat seems to have been found at Bruges, Belgium, dated to the second or third century AD (see the Online Library). And from Bad Kreuznach, a mosaic showing such a boat is featured in figure 3 of an Archaeology Data Service report (see link on the right).

=

There were Veneti in the Baltic along the shore in the region of the Oder and Vistula rivers.

The name itself means 'white' in Common Gaulish. It is cognate to the English words 'white' and 'winter'. It might mean 'the winter people', or it might mean 'the blonds' (white hair). Or it more likely comes from an ancient leader or founder of the tribe who might have been blond and nicknamed 'White'.

One can envision a possible migration of Veneti from the Vistula by sea to Armorica. Then a flight of survivors from Armorica to Fife in Scotland and Donnegal in Ireland. Then Romanised Veneti of Fife move into western and northern Wales and found the kingdoms of Gwynedd and Ceredigion.

http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/RomanVenicones01.htm

.

Cool thanks.

Gwynedd is the Breton name for Vannes, the name is the same, it is white - but it's more from bright, beautiful.

I bet Wendy's name in Peter Pan is based on this etymology too, from wened. Guinevere in King Arthur would also be based in this word imo and is probably very symbolic. Something like 'very fair' - as she was.

Edited March 16, 2012 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

The Amber Road was an ancient trade route for the transfer of amber. As one of the waterways and ancient highways, for centuries the road led from Europe to Asia and back, and from northern Africa to the Baltic Sea.

An important raw material, amber was transported from the North Sea and Baltic Sea coasts overland by way of the Vistula and Dnieper rivers to Italy, Greece, the Black Sea, and Egypt thousands of years ago, and long after.

In Roman times, a main route ran south from the Baltic coast in Prussia through the land of the Boii (modern Czech Republic and Slovakia) to the head of the Adriatic Sea (modern Gulf of Venice). The Egyptian pharaoh Tutankhamun had Baltic amber among his burial goods,[citation needed] and amber was sent from the North Sea to the temple of Apollo at Delphi as an offering. From the Black Sea, trade could continue to Asia along the Silk Road, another ancient trade route.

The Old Prussian towns of Kaup and Truso on the Baltic were the starting points of the route to the south. In Scandinavia the amber road probably gave rise to the thriving Nordic Bronze Age culture, bringing influences from the Mediterranean Sea to the northernmost countries of Europe.

Or taking influences INTO the Mediterranean.

The Veneti were at the end point of the trade route at the Gulf of Venice. Amber was sent from the North Sea to Apollo's temple, which surely indicates to me a Northern origin for Apollo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Road

[The Puzzler]

This essentially brings up a few of points in regards to aspects of cultural anthropology theory (a quite involved topic). First, one is faced with the questionable provenance of the text itself. Next, we have the numerous mythological elements apparent within the text. Then we have the aspect of the interpretation of oral histories and the methodologies that can be applied in order to distinguish between the original elements of the history and the additions/alterations that invariably occur over time. Lastly, we have the time-span itself and the rather cumulative compilation of "mutations".

A comprehensive discussion of the above is rather beyond the capacity of these pages. However, should you be interested in some thought-provoking papers on the topic of the utilization of oral histories as they apply to the interpretation of early historical and archaeological data, there are (from my perspective) two in particular that you may find of interest. While the two authors (Echo Hawk and Mason) approach the topic from quite diametrical perspectives, they essentially do reach a common ground in that any utilization of oral histories must be subjected close interpretive standards, both culturally and temporally.

Access to the papers would likely involve working with your local library/university. Can provide citations should you wish to pursue such. Believe that you would find them quite interesting.

.

I would find them interesting, this is what I like to do, hence my wonderment on the context of the phrase. Phaethon is a good one.

[Abramelin]

The Amber Road was an ancient trade route for the transfer of amber. As one of the waterways and ancient highways, for centuries the road led from Europe to Asia and back, and from northern Africa to the Baltic Sea.

An important raw material, amber was transported from the North Sea and Baltic Sea coasts overland by way of the Vistula and Dnieper rivers to Italy, Greece, the Black Sea, and Egypt thousands of years ago, and long after.

In Roman times, a main route ran south from the Baltic coast in Prussia through the land of the Boii (modern Czech Republic and Slovakia) to the head of the Adriatic Sea (modern Gulf of Venice). The Egyptian pharaoh Tutankhamun had Baltic amber among his burial goods,[citation needed] and amber was sent from the North Sea to the temple of Apollo at Delphi as an offering. From the Black Sea, trade could continue to Asia along the Silk Road, another ancient trade route.

The Old Prussian towns of Kaup and Truso on the Baltic were the starting points of the route to the south. In Scandinavia the amber road probably gave rise to the thriving Nordic Bronze Age culture, bringing influences from the Mediterranean Sea to the northernmost countries of Europe.

Or taking influences INTO the Mediterranean.

The Veneti were at the end point of the trade route at the Gulf of Venice. Amber was sent from the North Sea to Apollo's temple, which surely indicates to me a Northern origin for Apollo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Road

You mention amber. Did the Fryans trade in amber? I have never read anything about that in the OLB.

Maybe I missed it, and I am going to check it now.

++++

EDIT:

I didn't find anything about 'amber' in the OLB.

In modern Frisian it is called "barnstien".

The ancient Germans called it "glēsa".

The "barn" root has to do with 'burning', they used it as fuel or something like that.

"Barnstein" means "burnt stone".

I tried it myself, burn pine resin, and it burns for a very, very long time. I soaked a linnen cloth in it, put it on a wooden stick and set it alight.

It burns for many hours like a torch.

Maybe the Fryans used amber for their 'lamps'?

But if they traded in amber, why don't we read about it in the OLB?

It was being used by the ancient Greeks, Romans, and Egyptians.

I now think we are on a wrong track again with these 'Veneti'.

The Fryans were known by many names according to the OLB, but we don't read anythng in the OLB about "Veneti" or amber.

The Veneti appear to have lived all over Europe, from the Baltic, to the centre of Europe, to the Med, to the Channel area, to England, and Scotland.

But nothing about them in the OLB.

They are just another nail into the coffin of the OLB.

.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Abramelin

[Swede]

I would find them interesting, this is what I like to do, hence my wonderment on the context of the phrase. Phaethon is a good one.

Citations:

Echo-Hawk, Roger C.

2000 Ancient History in the New World: Integrating Oral Traditions and the Archaeological Record In Deep Time. American Antiquity, Vol. 65, No. 2 pp. 267-290.

Mason, Ronald J.

2000 Archaeology and Native American Oral Traditions. American Antiquity, Vol 65, No. 2, pp.239-266.

These obviously deal with North America, but the various constraints and methodologies discussed have a broader application.

Would recommend reading Echo-Hawk first, as Mason is, at least initially, a rebuttal to Echo-Hawk.

Enjoy!

[The Puzzler]

You mention amber. Did the Fryans trade in amber? I have never read anything about that in the OLB.

Maybe I missed it, and I am going to check it now.

++++

EDIT:

I didn't find anything about 'amber' in the OLB.

In modern Frisian it is called "barnstien".

The ancient Germans called it "glēsa".

The "barn" root has to do with 'burning', they used it as fuel or something like that.

"Barnstein" means "burnt stone".

I tried it myself, burn pine resin, and it burns for a very, very long time. I soaked a linnen cloth in it, put it on a wooden stick and set it alight.

It burns for many hours like a torch.

Maybe the Fryans used amber for their 'lamps'?

But if they traded in amber, why don't we read about it in the OLB?

It was being used by the ancient Greeks, Romans, and Egyptians.

I now think we are on a wrong track again with these 'Veneti'.

The Fryans were known by many names according to the OLB, but we don't read anythng in the OLB about "Veneti" or amber.

The Veneti appear to have lived all over Europe, from the Baltic, to the centre of Europe, to the Med, to the Channel area, to England, and Scotland.

But nothing about them in the OLB.

They are just another nail into the coffin of the OLB.

.

The Juttar picked up amber from the shores.

The Fryans of the Friesland area probably didnt have much to do with it - but certainly in the area of the Frisian Lagoon, Vistula mouth, the Juttar, part of the Fryans would have traded in it imo.

It's a link to what the Fryans were doing in Italy with 'factories'. Sounds like a trade centre to me.

If Venus is Frya that link imo is important. It's a bit round a bout but my intentions are to discover exactly who WAS in Italy Bronze Age and where they came from, who were these Fryans in Near Krekaland with factories? It could be written off as pure crap but if the Baltic Veneti were followers of Frya and bought amber into Italy down the river routes as I showed in the Amber Road link, it means it is possible that Fryans were in Near Krekaland with factories.

PS: Thanks Swede

Edited March 16, 2012 by The Puzzler

[Alewyn]

You mention amber. Did the Fryans trade in amber? I have never read anything about that in the OLB.

Maybe I missed it, and I am going to check it now.

++++

EDIT:

I didn't find anything about 'amber' in the OLB.

But if they traded in amber, why don't we read about it in the OLB?

They are just another nail into the coffin of the OLB.

The Book of Adela’s Followers, Chapter 24 (Tunis & Inka):

When they were well established, they set some old seamen and Magyarar ashore and onwards to the burgh Sidon, but at first the coastal people did not want to know anything about them.

“You are only foreign drifters” they said, “whom we do not respect”.

When we wanted to sell them some of our iron weapons, however, it at last went well. They also greatly desired our amber and their inquiries about it had no end. But Tunis, who was far-sighted, pretended that he had no more iron weapons or amber. Then merchants came and begged him to let them have twenty vessels, which they would freight with the finest goods, and they would provide as many people to row as he would require.

[The Puzzler]

The Book of Adela’s Followers, Chapter 24 (Tunis & Inka):

When they were well established, they set some old seamen and Magyarar ashore and onwards to the burgh Sidon, but at first the coastal people did not want to know anything about them.

“You are only foreign drifters” they said, “whom we do not respect”.

When we wanted to sell them some of our iron weapons, however, it at last went well. They also greatly desired our amber and their inquiries about it had no end. But Tunis, who was far-sighted, pretended that he had no more iron weapons or amber. Then merchants came and begged him to let them have twenty vessels, which they would freight with the finest goods, and they would provide as many people to row as he would require.

Yes, and this part about amber. How did you forget or miss that part Abe?

[Abramelin]

The Book of Adelas Followers, Chapter 24 (Tunis & Inka):

When they were well established, they set some old seamen and Magyarar ashore and onwards to the burgh Sidon, but at first the coastal people did not want to know anything about them.

You are only foreign drifters they said, whom we do not respect.

When we wanted to sell them some of our iron weapons, however, it at last went well. They also greatly desired our amber and their inquiries about it had no end. But Tunis, who was far-sighted, pretended that he had no more iron weapons or amber. Then merchants came and begged him to let them have twenty vessels, which they would freight with the finest goods, and they would provide as many people to row as he would require.

Great. I couldn't find that text in the OLB.

So "Veneti" is still a possible alternative name for the Fryans.

Now all we have to do is prove that they were around, 2200 BC.

.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Yes, and this part about amber. How did you forget or miss that part Abe?

It's hard to focus when you are looking at the bottom of a bottle of booze.

But I checked what Alewyn posted, and he is right.

[Van Gorp]

I posted this in Trojans were Basques? topic but felt it could be a connection in this topic too. If the people of Southern Belgium, who may have been Fryans were the Veneti, it could be the sailors of this area were in Italy and had 'factories'.

Presented below as old Scytisch (Celtisch Cimbrisch Dietsch) words: another possible view on some of the earlier interesting posts.

Veneti -> coming from Beneden, those living below

Armorica -> coming from Armer-ycke -> arms of the coast side

[Abramelin]

Presented below as old Scytisch (Celtisch Cimbrisch Dietsch) words: another possible view on some of the earlier interesting posts.

Veneti -> coming from Beneden, those living below

Armorica -> coming from Armer-ycke -> arms of the coast side

How about those Veneti living in Scotland? Or at the coast of the Baltic? Or in Middle Europe?

[Abramelin]

Citations:

Echo-Hawk, Roger C.

2000 Ancient History in the New World: Integrating Oral Traditions and the Archaeological Record In Deep Time. American Antiquity, Vol. 65, No. 2 pp. 267-290.

Mason, Ronald J.

2000 Archaeology and Native American Oral Traditions. American Antiquity, Vol 65, No. 2, pp.239-266.

These obviously deal with North America, but the various constraints and methodologies discussed have a broader application.

Would recommend reading Echo-Hawk first, as Mason is, at least initially, a rebuttal to Echo-Hawk.

Enjoy!

Swede, you and I have been discussing this Echo-Hawk in the Doggerland thread:

Scroll down this page:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=179840&st=375

And then this page:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=179840&st=390&p=3394537entry3394537

.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Great. I couldn't find that text in the OLB.

So "Veneti" is still a possible alternative name for the Fryans.

Now all we have to do is prove that they were around, 2200 BC.

.

I remember Swede once told me that the next site - which we posted a couple of times here and in the Doggerland thread - is not created by a scientist, but by an artist. On the other hand, I have read about worse theories.

What he has to say about the Veneti (actually mmost of his website is about them) is interesting. But whether it would 'help' the OLB.... I am not that sure.

Here some text:

Finding sedentary civilizations down there, they would have traded and some would have continued to do so, becoming professional traders. Some would have stayed and become part of the trading world down there - and that led me to wonder about the many instances of the name VENETI in the ancient writings. The words by Finnic language seemed to be plural of boat, or 'something pertaining to water' and could interpret easily as 'boat people' or 'people of watercrafts' or something similar. But scholars were not thinking in terms of traders at all. The Veneti were a mystery. The Adriatic Veneti had left behind inscriptions of their language. Maybe they were a Finnic language indicative or a northern origin? I then noticed that the Adriatic Veneti were at the southern terminus of two major trade routes carrying amber from the north. That provided a direct link. If amber came down for a millenium, the language in the south would have been kept in line with that in the north, and not diverge as fast as if there was no connection. The genetics of the peoples at the south really did not matter anymore. The language was a trade language, a lingua franca. Was the early trade language of the tradeways of early Europe of a Finnic character. It might be, if the traders were derived from the north - those notherners were preadapted to long journeys on rivers in boats. Thus I became sidetracked by these questions and that led me to interpret the Veneti inscriptions and document it in a book. What I have discovered and present has made these articles very heavily visited, and scholars already considering oceanic crossings to North America have sent supportive emails. Andres Pääbo (rev. Nov 09)

http://www.paabo.ca/uirala/index.html

http://www.paabo.ca/uirala/uini-name_files/Map-3000BC.jpg

Having established that the original words - when the language was simple and had only the simple vowels and consonants of a baby - were based on UI-, let's explore how an original word like UINI or UINU would have evolved into later words like Finni, Phinnoi, Fenni, etc in the north and the Veneti (Eneti, Henetoi, Uenedi, etc) in the Black Sea and southern Europe.

The Origins of the "Finni" Name: The Introductory F Sound

The Scandinavians of centuries ago called the native peoples throughout Scandinavia by the name "Finns". That must have been a real name used by the natives, since it is unlikely the Scandinavians would have borrowed the use of the same name by the Roman Tacitus and Greeks like Ptolemy, with reference to primitive peoples in the wilderness behind the southeast Baltic. (See Tacitus Germania 98AD, ch 46). The Greeks wrote Phinnoi, and Tacitus used Fenni. But Finnic languages did not originally have the "F, PH" sound; therefore it must have been a sound that somewhat resembled an "F". We note that there are historical records which speak about Indu peoples in the Gulf of Finland as well, and of course there exist the Finno-Ugrians called Khanti at the Ob River, who Estonians call Handid.

The original word could indeed have been "UINNI", but was spoken by the people themselves so it sounded like "WHINNI" or "BHINNI" or "HINNI" or.....The foreign listeners wrote down what the bias of their own language observed, whether the sound was in the language or not.

It is important to always bear in mind that when Latin writers wrote the F-character, they may have been describing the "V" sound, whereas when they wrote the V-character they always meant the "W" sound. Thus Latin Fenni may have actually been "VENNI", while Latin Venni was actually "WENNI"

It is interesting that the name for the ancient people called Veneti by the Romans, were called Eneti or Henetoi, by Greeks. The difference is not that great if we rewrite the Roman version properly as Weneti. What both versions have in common is the ENETI part. It shows that the Roman ear and the Greek ear interpreted the initial peculiarity in different ways. A third language may have interpreted it yet differently still like say "KHENETI" (which reminds us of the people popularly called Khanti, but which Estonian language calls Handid.)

The proof of this explanation for the origins of the name of the Eneti/Veneti seems to be found in inscriptions left by the Eneti/Veneti themselves in North Italy. They left behind short pieces of writing that have been the subject of investigation (of little success) over the years. Of interest are words that could be interpreted as their own words for Eneti/Veneti. In their own phonetic writing modelled after Etruscan writing, they wrote their own name as follows (transcribed to Roman alphabet, but keeping the dots used) .e..n.no -- Note the dots around the initial E. The dots in their inscriptions appear, in my analysis, to signify some kind of special linguistic feature. Scholars have solidly established that in some situations .i. distorts the "I" sound to resemble an "H". It can therefore be assumed that the E with dots on both sides, similarly represents dome kind of H-like quality. We conclude therefore, the Venetic inscription placing dots around the initial E confirms the theory of the actual speech introducing an aspirant consonantal feature in front, but one that was not clear enough to define as a letter. We can speculate that maybe the sound was similar to "WH" since the Romans interpreted it as "WENETI".

The Origins of the "ENETI, HENETOI" Name

Homer in his Iliad, first wrote about a people named Eneti or Henetoi who were located at Paphlagonia on the southwest coast of the Black Sea, who came to the aid of Troy (around 1200 BC). This name Eneti continued to appear in Greek texts, for more than a millenium, describing a people who appear to have been, to the Greeks, a source of tin and amber.

Because archeology shows that Baltic amber came down to the civilizations in Asia Minor and Egypt, even before the rise of Mycenian Greece, even if clear evidence of people called Eneti being handlers of northern amber comes from the colonies of Eneti in northern Italy, we are justified in assuming amber was also handled earlier by Eneti at the Black Sea, since river routes from the east Baltic sources of amber reached the Black Sea easily.

Archeology shows an abundance of early trade amber in the Gulf of Riga, and apparently travelling down the Dneiper River to the Black Sea; thus we can assume that the original Black Sea Eneti were a southern colony of Dneiper traders who carried amber and other goods south from the Baltic. It's possible there was a major source of amber in the Gulf of Riga, which became used up.

Since the culture of the east Baltic region at the time, the archeological "Comb Ceramic" culture, has been associated with the Finnic peoples, we can conclude that the Eneti were Finnic, and that their name came from the same origins - the northern boat peoples, reaching back to the UINI, UINU.

http://www.paabo.ca/uirala/uini-name.html

+++++++++++++

EDIT:

So according to this Paabo: " - and that led me to wonder about the many instances of the name VENETI in the ancient writings. The words by Finnic language seemed to be plural of boat, or 'something pertaining to water' and could interpret easily as 'boat people' or 'people of watercrafts' or something similar."

I hope you remember what I suggested earlier:

< skip >

Lol, now we can only 'hope' these Romans called all those people "Veneti" because of their blue eyes and/or because they practically lived on the seas.

.

His map of 3000 BC:

.

.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

Chapter 1 of "Hir is eskriven ~ lezen en schrijven in de Friese landen rond 1300" ('reading and writing in the Frisian lands ca. 1300'), by Rolf H. Bremmer jr. (Fryske Akademy, 2004).

Title: "Zoveel geschreven, zo weinig gebleven" ('so much written, so little saved')

(sorry no translation yet)

PART 1 of 3

[Otharus]

PART 2 of 3

[Otharus]

PART 3 of 3

[The Puzzler]

Abe, great post on the Veneti. What it does show imo is that people who could have been Fryans, were travelling the river systems down into the Mediterranean even prior to Mycenaean times.

The mention also of the dots either side of the a -

.e..n.no -- Note the dots around the initial E. The dots in their inscriptions appear, in my analysis, to signify some kind of special linguistic feature. Scholars have solidly established that in some situations .i. distorts the "I" sound to resemble an "H". It can therefore be assumed that the E with dots on both sides, similarly represents dome kind of H-like quality. We conclude therefore, the Venetic inscription placing dots around the initial E confirms the theory of the actual speech introducing an aspirant consonantal feature in front, but one that was not clear enough to define as a letter. We can speculate that maybe the sound was similar to "WH" since the Romans interpreted it as "WENETI".

could also be relative the language of the OLB with it's dots in words.

A main Etruscan God was Uni, so that's a connection for me in other areas of my interests too.

The original word could indeed have been "UINNI", but was spoken by the people themselves so it sounded like "WHINNI" or "BHINNI" or "HINNI" or.....The foreign listeners wrote down what the bias of their own language observed, whether the sound was in the language or not.

Uni could connect to Venus/Veneti then. Uni becomes Juno in Roman mythology but her connections to Astarte are also there.

http://www.thaliatook.com/OGOD/uni.html

.e..nn.no to Veneti - makes you realise how much is connecting dots.

----------------

I'm even seeing words that might lead to the name Phoenicians - fenni/phenoi

Edited March 17, 2012 by The Puzzler