Do muslims......

[Knight Of Shadows]

well you may see it that way .. we certinaly don't see it that way

and that's not what they certinaly did in afghastan or iraq look at the results

maybe just maybe people don't need the west's help and could make things right on their own

[Parsip]

maybe just maybe people don't need the west's help and could make things right on their own

Can you name one Middle Eastern country that is free, rich and peaceful?

[Beckys_Mom]

i posted the pics of the rape once here .. americans didn't like it of course it was cencored but the truth hurt

I feel anyone posting pics of rape is wrong... The people you say complained had a right to complain... It is a disturbing image and topic.... I feel posting any pic of rape is wrong and messed up.. So If your pics were removed.. then the mods were right to do so... This is a family forum.. you should understand that by now..So you are wrong it was not a matter of the truth hurting..

for the first link .. it does say about abuse ..

I said it mentioned prison torture and torture in my book spells abuse...but it does not say what was stated in this thread.. about millions of women and children raped and murdered by US and UK troops.. This was my only concern and all I was raising .

for the third link see it simply dismissed .. simple accident here simple accident there few accident in that prison

few in that ? and what muslims should take all that and say thank you ? no not really would you ?

No one said simple accidents ...3rd link was only about one mad soldier killing 17 people... Your 3rd link ( and the other two links) does not say MILLIONS of children and women were murdered and raped by US and UK military.. which once again was my only concern <-- I have mentioned several times over to you what my main and only concern was and you have not paid it any real attention...even when I highlight it to stand out..

So as you do not seem to understand what my main request and concern is.. I suggest you drop this.. I am not interested in reading other stories about other incidences skittered here and there... I already know about the other things you raise, that is why I never asked for sources on those things..I wouldn't need to read sources on things I already know about.....But forgive me but it was not what I was asking to read... And I now feel it is pointless taking this further

EDIT - Anyway all of this is off topic.. I pulled up one claim about rape and murder of children and women in the millions and asked for a source to be curious to read up on as I have never heard of it...And it has gotten nowhere and went off about everything else.. So it is derailing too much of the topic.

. If you live in a place like that...I am sorry..and feel bad for you..But please see that it was not what I was talking about... I also wish you all the best you and your family...

And I apologise to anyone else reading.. I was expecting a source link and got a lot more of what I wasn't asking for... So it stops here as far as I am concerned....

Edited April 2, 2012 by Beckys_Mom

[spud the mackem]

well you may see it that way .. we certinaly don't see it that way

and that's not what they certinaly did in afghastan or iraq look at the results

maybe just maybe people don't need the west's help and could make things right on their own

Well friend I have put my views on this,and if you dont wish to accept,thats your opinion,keep looking over your shoulder and be afraid to speak out as you prefer it that way..keep being ruled by tyrants and dont yell for help when they come for you,and put you against a wall.I wont be contacting you again.Best of luck you need it living in a place like that...sayonara

[Knight Of Shadows]

becky would you like to point to me when i said " millions o children and women being raped " ? i never said that

but you however claimed there was no rape at all and i proved you wrong yet you trying to sneak around the point making calm escape

that it wasn't what you're looking for meaning i say : so it'll take millions of rape for you understand that what usa doing is wrong ?

is that what you want ? coz am not following you you asked for prove or rape .. i provided you asked for prove of torture , mistreat , homicide

i provided .. now you want prove of millions being raped which i never claimed at first place ? is that what it'll take for you to admit you're wrong ?

however i thank you for your sympathy with my country but really is that what it'll take for you to admit wrong ? you want millions of rape ?

you think WE'd let this go that far ? no wonder there's suicidal bombers then .. with such way of logic you're using seriously millions or rape ?

i didn't reliaze that lives of muslims means so little to you people

and squd my discussions with you are over i made a you a clear point you overlooked

[Knight Of Shadows]

Can you name one Middle Eastern country that is free, rich and peaceful?

can you name one middle eastern country that wasn't occupied by the west or manipulated one way or another ?

riches were stolen oil stolen ? well can you ?

[Beckys_Mom]

becky would you like to point to me when i said " millions o children and women being raped " ? i never said that

I know you didn't... It was not your post I was referring to when I 1st asked for a source to read up on millions raped and murdered by US and UK troops... The post was made by someone else..I was addressing someone else.. Hope that clear you up.. I know rape and torture took place.. But not by the millions as claimed.. ( key word was millions ) . I no longer care to press on this further.. It goes nowhere

Edited April 2, 2012 by Beckys_Mom

[RavenHawk]

Abu Graib:

The images you see are basically college hazing. Or even “company” punishment in the military itself. It’s even what happens as a reward. If you get your jump wings or scuba badge, you are awarded a pin. You stand at attention as it is pinned to your uniform. They don’t attach the protective backing until everyone in the room has driven it into your chest. I would guess that even the guards have done the same kind of hazing to each other. Yes, those images to the uninitiated could be shocking but in reality, it’s business as usual. Grow up! It’s been the hype that has driven it over the top.

Prisoners die. Not everyone has the mental capacity to survive. Prisoners die in jails in this country every day, even in the best of them. It’s just the nature of the beast. But let’s not forget what was going on at this jail before under Saddam. This wiki lists the one death. How many do you think there were under the previous regime?

Even in the military, people die from accidents. It’s a dangerous profession, even in peace. There have been numerous occasions where a soldier dies on an exercise because they were forgotten or just got in the way. One time we were in the pit at a firing range, when a round struck the frame of the target just right and showered us with lead and wood fragments. We just got scratches on the face and forearms but the potential was there. Another time we were on an IBS heading to shore when a wicked wave hit us and catapulted me and a companion over the bow and into the surf. We could have snapped our necks hitting bottom or get chewed up by the props. We were lucky. In another exercise, we were in the bush between a road and a target range, about 500 yards. A 155 landed short, less than 400 yards from us. We could feel the shockwave and the heat on our faces and our clothes ruffled. Then that night, the tanks rolled. We couldn’t see them and we were next to the road. The sound was deafening. We could have been run over very easily. We pulled back a bit and radioed in. And these are just some of the near misses that I experienced, and not even in a war zone.

Bodies in Afghanistan:

In my view, the only rule in war is to win (at whatever means you have). It’s not the suicide bombers as a tactic that I object to; it is that they are the enemy. War is not meant to be anything else but ugly – PERIOD! Given that, the enemy dead are for the amusement of the victor. Count coop – take scalp, trophy, whatever. So peeing on them is a non issue. Where was the same level of objection when Daniel Pearl was beheaded or the bodies of our soldiers being dragged through the streets of the Mog or four contractors strung up on that Bridge in Fallujah? In many cultures, peeing on your living captives was a means to humiliate and dominate. The practice probably started in ancient Assyria?? Just like Abu Ghraib, this is just a piece of PR being hyped to attack us with. It only has power if we lose the initiative. Unfortunately, since Obama took over, we have lost the initiative and we should just get out. We had such a great opportunity to change the world for the best and we squandered it. That’s short sighted politicians for you. They just can’t see the train barreling down on them (us).

Ssgt Bales killing spree:

This is incomprehensible. This does not help win. But it is indicative of losing the initiative. At this point, it is more important to find out what happened. If he is guilty even if he snapped, he’ll be sent up for a very long time. My brother told me that on one patrol, he had almost pulled his sidearm to shoot the grandmother (matriarch of the family). You never see him that enraged. What happened was the treatment of the mentally and physically challenge children in the village. They were tied up to a tree, wallowing in their own feces. No water or food. If we did not have the initiative, I could have seen him waste her. He had his medics dress their wounds and give them water but there wasn’t much more that he could have done and his patrol moved on. Given that, I could see where Bales snapped and got tired of witnessing the misery and how the Afghans treat their own. But that’s just one possibility. We no longer have the initiative anyway so there is nothing we can do and it is time to leave.

You make it sound like our occupation is the rape of Nanking. Just bringing up that comparison shows the absurdity of the claim. No doubt that rapes do occur but I would imagine that more still occur in this country. There was a false report that 600,000 Iraqis (civilians) died at the hands of occupation forces. Over inflated numbers again being hyped by our enemies. The actual number was around 80,000 (civilian and extremist combined). An Italian reporter had shown a satellite image of Fullujah and claimed that it proved that we had raised it to the ground. In actuality, there was heavy cloud cover that threw dark shadows on the ground giving the appearance of burned out buildings. The claim continued that the city of over 250,000 were wiped out, when in fact a week’s warning was given and people left in droves and less than 30,000 remained. And not all of them were “wiped out”. Yup, I can do this all day – disprove the false claims. But I’m in the unique position of being one in the know. I would get the straight dope from my brother and others. What was going on over there was almost always the opposite than what we’d see in the MSM.

[Parsip]

can you name one middle eastern country that wasn't occupied by the west or manipulated one way or another ?

riches were stolen oil stolen ? well can you ?

Saudi Arabia? Turkey?

Keep blaming the problem on the West and doing nothing to fix it and let me know how that works out for you. Who enjoys oppression, malnourishment, low standard of living, low income, and constant war and civil unrest? Only Middle Easterners do.

[RavenHawk]

Saudi Arabia? Turkey?

Nope. Even these two. By way of the Ottoman Empire. From the stand at Vienna to the Crimea to WWI. The West was active in ceasing Muslim expansion and their downfall. Most Muslims don’t acknowledge that for a time, they were British and French subjects and territories. And that eventually, it was the West that returned these lands free from Ottoman rule. Maybe the West should have ruled these lands with an iron fist?

The West also expended their own resources developing the oil fields and setup OPEC so that they could steal the ME oil.

Keep blaming the problem on the West and doing nothing to fix it and let me know how that works out for you. Who enjoys oppression, malnourishment, low standard of living, low income, and constant war and civil unrest? Only Middle Easterners do.

Now you may have something here.

[Beany]

What went on at Abu Ghraib equivalent to college hazing? Exactly what fraternity were they hoping to join? In California college hazing is illegal, because it is highly dangerous and young men have died because of it. And with hazing, all the participants are there voluntarily, and have the choice to leave at any time.

[RavenHawk]

What went on at Abu Ghraib equivalent to college hazing? Exactly what fraternity were they hoping to join? In California college hazing is illegal, because it is highly dangerous and young men have died because of it. And with hazing, all the participants are there voluntarily, and have the choice to leave at any time.

Boy, that was naïve. Yes, there have been deaths. That is why hazing is illegal in many places but just because it is illegal doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen. Being able to have the choice to stay or not does not preclude someone from dying.

I recall that I had p***ed off two NCOs one time. They had me stand on a box on one leg in the squad bay with my knit hat over my face with my arms out. It was only about 10mins – no big deal. What was I going to do? Go whine to the company commander? I wouldn’t have been trusted among the rest of the men if I did. I’d get comments like “WAAH” or “grow up”, etc. I wasn’t the only one. Just about everyone got picked on in this manner. You’d see who was mature enough to take it. It wasn’t personal, just mind games. It was a means to bring everyone in line because people’s lives could be on the line at any time and you needed to know who was up to the task. And you needed unit cohesion.

The same concept is applied to prisoners. They need to learn to fall in line with the program. The prisoners at Abu Ghraib were obviously having a problem with that. Muslim men with female guards… That’s culture shock for the prisoners and they probably didn’t show any respect to those female guards. This treatment clearly established who was boss. This was strictly a battle of wills of which the prisoners were going to lose. This not only protects the lives of the guards but it also protects the lives of the prisoners because the guards are responsible for the prisoners.

Now I admit that if you’ve never been in the position, you’ll never understand – that’s ok. And it appears that most people do not. This kind of treatment is to establish discipline and it is a time honored process. Just because it has been blown out of proportion does not make it wrong. It is a valuable tool in any organization. Now who here works for a company that passes out the Golden Turkey? It’s the same concept. The difference is that usually, people’s lives are not on the line when one receives the Golden Turkey. You catch the subtlety there? It’s time for the public to become educated and drop the America bashing warpath. War is brutal. War and history have been going on for a lot longer than people have been alive and longer than any nation has existed.

[Knight Of Shadows]

Saudi Arabia? Turkey?

Keep blaming the problem on the West and doing nothing to fix it and let me know how that works out for you. Who enjoys oppression, malnourishment, low standard of living, low income, and constant war and civil unrest? Only Middle Easterners do.

get a history lessions

and we don't enjoy it and we're doing things about it .. it just doesn't include being occupied going from bad to worse

otherwise no one would start a revo

[Knight Of Shadows]

by the way why the mod deleted my post with static and body counts of death ?

[RavenHawk]

get a history lessions

and we don't enjoy it and we're doing things about it .. it just doesn't include being occupied going from bad to worse

otherwise no one would start a revo

Well, to be honest. The Assyrians were some of the first to occupy its neighbors… So I don’t see where you have any reason to complain. Let’s turn this around. I get it that you don’t like being invaded – no one does. But “like” has nothing to do with it. But what could you do to prevent it? I’m not saying to stop it, just how would you prevent it?

[Knight Of Shadows]

well as simple person like me there isn't nothing i can could do

but once we are occupied we know how to resist .. and when we do we get called terrorists

and the occupying forces .. are the coaltion army .. ain't that a stupid logic ?

am not assyrian by the way

[RavenHawk]

well as simple person like me there isn't nothing i can could do

You’re just a moderate and you have no power, is that it? Play the copout? But if you had the power, what would you do? How would you prevent terrorism from emanating from your country? How would you meet the needs of your people in quality of life, employment, and ease civil unrest? How would you confront the imams and clerics to reform Islam in a modern world?

but once we are occupied we know how to resist ..

Despite what one would think, resistance (asymmetric warfare) really has little hope of winning. The only way for that to happen would be that the resistance gets external help in massive quantities or the invader loses their will to do what is necessary. Now that is what is happening right now. And what is going to happen is that the occupying forces are going to find a way to pull out under the delusion that they were successful, then the real terrorism will bite them in the butt again because Islam hasn’t lost its will.

Without the aid of the French, the American Revolution would have fizzled out. Although with the leadership of Washington and his generals (of which one is my ancestor ), the British Will would not have been enough to break the Revolution. After the Treaty of Paris, fundamentalist American Christians didn’t go attack the Brits with suicide bombers in Canada or vowed to kick them into the sea. Or thought that the Brits were worthy of death because they were imperialists and not republicans. Americans did kick out the British in Georgia (1783) and the Ohio Valley (1794) and didn’t cross the border. That’s the difference between freedom fighters and terrorists. And for argument’s sake, there are probably exceptions. Bringing down the WTC is not one of them. America was not involved in any invasion of a Muslim nation in 2001. The real reason then, must lie elsewhere.

and when we do we get called terrorists

and the occupying forces .. are the coaltion army .. ain't that a stupid logic ?

It is a complex situation. In the American Civil War, the North called it “The War of the Rebellion” and the South called it “The War of Southern Independence”. It’s all in the point of view. It is difficult to separate the terrorists from resistance fighters, mainly because many are both. When you strike at the heart of terrorists, there you will also find the resistance. That’s one of the tricks to occupation – to win the hearts and minds. I would have thought that we would have learned that trick by now, and for awhile that was the case. But we have lost the initiative and the will isn’t there. We’ve forgotten the purpose. And that will condemn us to another terrorist attack on our shores down the road.

am not assyrian by the way

Well, you’re in the realm of Assyria (heritage), therefore Syrian by proxy.

[Knight Of Shadows]

well am moderate you asked me what i can do i said as simple person nothing .. you didn't say IF i had the power

and if i did i'd serperate religion from politics the two don't mix well together

but too many if won't make a change really i can go on about if i was i would do and if and if but hey that lose the point

reality is Am NOT in power .. so there's no need for if i was what would i do

actually asymmetric warfare got many countries freed .. the secret lies by causing the enemy as many losses that it would make it's stays more expensive than leaveing worked always coz we fight for our country .. they fight for greed .. piece of cake

and it's not matter of opinion it's matter of right and wrong and which side you take

i doubt having one opinion could change the reality that 1+1=2 .. even if i think it's 11 it doesn't change the answer

however am not assyrian am proud to be arab and never forget my kurdish roots eaither so thank you i'll pass being assyrian

i actually i don't i'll enjoy being one

and syria is not the hertiage of assyrians .. cannaites were here thousands of years B.C

while assyrians arrived in times of christ .. you get the idea ?

that makes them the newbies in syria ..

[+and-then]

Hahaha maby the murderous zealots will get what's comeing to them after all. It's bad enough when one woman rejects me for sex... 72 of them would be a serious self esteem killer... The worse part is that I'd be ALREADY DEAD!!! There would be no escape!

Being virgins would make it worse. One woman that actually knows something will beat a bunch of virgins any day.

No truer words ever spoken Seeker!

Edited April 4, 2012 by and then

[psyche101]

You’re just a moderate and you have no power, is that it? Play the copout? But if you had the power, what would you do? How would you prevent terrorism from emanating from your country? How would you meet the needs of your people in quality of life, employment, and ease civil unrest? How would you confront the imams and clerics to reform Islam in a modern world?

Despite what one would think, resistance (asymmetric warfare) really has little hope of winning. The only way for that to happen would be that the resistance gets external help in massive quantities or the invader loses their will to do what is necessary. Now that is what is happening right now. And what is going to happen is that the occupying forces are going to find a way to pull out under the delusion that they were successful, then the real terrorism will bite them in the butt again because Islam hasn’t lost its will.

Without the aid of the French, the American Revolution would have fizzled out. Although with the leadership of Washington and his generals (of which one is my ancestor ), the British Will would not have been enough to break the Revolution. After the Treaty of Paris, fundamentalist American Christians didn’t go attack the Brits with suicide bombers in Canada or vowed to kick them into the sea. Or thought that the Brits were worthy of death because they were imperialists and not republicans. Americans did kick out the British in Georgia (1783) and the Ohio Valley (1794) and didn’t cross the border. That’s the difference between freedom fighters and terrorists. And for argument’s sake, there are probably exceptions. Bringing down the WTC is not one of them. America was not involved in any invasion of a Muslim nation in 2001. The real reason then, must lie elsewhere.

It is a complex situation. In the American Civil War, the North called it “The War of the Rebellion” and the South called it “The War of Southern Independence”. It’s all in the point of view. It is difficult to separate the terrorists from resistance fighters, mainly because many are both. When you strike at the heart of terrorists, there you will also find the resistance. That’s one of the tricks to occupation – to win the hearts and minds. I would have thought that we would have learned that trick by now, and for awhile that was the case. But we have lost the initiative and the will isn’t there. We’ve forgotten the purpose. And that will condemn us to another terrorist attack on our shores down the road.

Well, you’re in the realm of Assyria (heritage), therefore Syrian by proxy.

Wow.

My thanks, you have really given a person something to think about. I would like to tak this opportunity to also thank Knight Of Shadows for the input. I had heard quite a bit about the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse in the media, but the additional information from KOS on the rapes is more than sobering. Have the reports of children being raped been confirmed? That is abhorrent behavior and inexcusable. May I ask you Raven if you have watched the documentary Ghosts Of Abu Ghraib and if so, may I ask your opinion of it?

@ KOS, you make some valid points and one can see why the anger is so deep in some cases, but do you feel the ME is completely innocent with regards to the current situation, and what do you feel Muslims such as those depicted in the following clip are accomplishing? Does this example not illustrate a reason why the animosity runs so deep? May I also ask your opinion of the abovementioned documentary? Do you feel there is a way for the two cultures to co-exist at all? How do you feel about the reign of the last Shah? (Mohammad Reza Pahlavi)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0hKEd6rzbeg

Edited April 4, 2012 by psyche101

[Knight Of Shadows]

i have not heard or saw anything about children's rape which is why i never brought it

but there was childern murderers

however i have not seen the document but the news channel that exposed that prison was broad casting it

if it wasn't for that channel .. no one would knew and the torture would go on along with everything else

so you can see what i think of usa politics .. it's never wrong if it's not exposed

the muslims of that clip well i got two points i think the whole reason of the march .. a muslim woman arrested because

her husband did something .. and without any evidence well the march has a reason damn good one too

but am not too happy with their blunt language to that cute girl i mean you have to know

that muslims .. in muslims country are not like that at all

those " western " muslims are minority there therefore they feel oppressed and therefore they get defensive about their beliefs

but that's how about how they may feel but am not like other people here who just want to make up excuses

what they said to that girl is totally wrong and hell even in islam says that only god can judge people

neither it's not up to that man with beared to decide wheather she's in hell or heaven .. unless he became a god and we don't know

but hey the chanting burn in hell .. am not against it i'll chant it against my own police too

so if you got background on the story .. why is she arrested ? any evidence ? is she getting arrested just because her husband is a Murderer ? because if that's so i think even western laws does not punish some one for some one else's crime right ?

you may have noticed i called him murderer because when some one make a murderer , rape , any crime

i don't look at it as muslim or christian or western i don't try to make it look like not big deal

he's just a murderer

the Mohammad Reza Pahlavi is in iran .. personally i think shittes are not muslims so my view will be too biased to post

[psyche101]

i have not heard or saw anything about children's rape which is why i never brought it

but there was childern murderers

however i have not seen the document but the news channel that exposed that prison was broad casting it

if it wasn't for that channel .. no one would knew and the torture would go on along with everything else

so you can see what i think of usa politics .. it's never wrong if it's not exposed

Thank you for your reply.

I got the impression of rape as I have read in a few headlines :The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. The worst about all of them is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking

Which is truly chilling. That action I agree should carry a harsh punishment.

I do believe that there is no excuse for child murder. I would think that you are right, transparency reduces ones courage to act in such a way, but in a war situation I am not entirely sure it would be possible across the board. The Taliban have no regard for age or Gender, and are just as guilty as anyone in Abu Ghraib but that does not make it OK for either side. It does indicate why we see things like this though. The Taliban opened fire on a school bus in Pakistan, That is targeting children in a usual (I wont say normal in this instance) state of mind. Fighting against people of such low character must affect one mentally. As such, although I will not and canot condone it, to an extent I think I can see why prisoners were treated with no regard whatsoever. I think the entire situation would give one the impression that they are serving justice. But if one touches a child, they fall below those they hold in such a low esteem. Do you feel the punishments handed out over the incident were satisfactory?

the muslims of that clip well i got two points i think the whole reason of the march .. a muslim woman arrested because

her husband did something .. and without any evidence well the march has a reason damn good one too

I cannot agree, she was married to the guy, so arrest for suspicion of assistance seems quite a normal procedure to carry out.

but am not too happy with their blunt language to that cute girl i mean you have to know

that muslims .. in muslims country are not like that at all

those " western " muslims are minority there therefore they feel oppressed and therefore they get defensive about their beliefs

but that's how about how they may feel but am not like other people here who just want to make up excuses

what they said to that girl is totally wrong and hell even in islam says that only god can judge people

neither it's not up to that man with beared to decide wheather she's in hell or heaven .. unless he became a god and we don't know

I was hoping you would not condone them. And it is refreshing to see that some Muslims do not agree with this sentiment, however, why do Muslims not protest right back at these dissidents? If the majority do not agree, why do they not form just as big a group and tell people like to stop slandering all of Islam? And if these people feel oppressed, why are they in these countries and not where they feel comfortable with their belief? It strikes me that the normal thing to do would be to move?

but hey the chanting burn in hell .. am not against it i'll chant it against my own police too

Really? Why is that? Do you feel police offer no benefit to society?

so if you got background on the story .. why is she arrested ? any evidence ? is she getting arrested just because her husband is a Murderer ? because if that's so i think even western laws does not punish some one for some one else's crime right ?

Mona Thwany was arrested for suspicion. Police detained Miss Thwany at her home in Luton as they searched two properties. She was released on police bail until November. And the police had good reason to search her and have the suspicion. Scotland Yard said: 'At 10.55pm last night, Metropolitan Police officers executed a search warrant under the Terrorism Act 2000 at an address in Bedfordshire.

I would (and still do) find it hard to believe that she was completely unaware of her husbands devotion to death. The Luton Islamic Centre said Abdulwahab's views were deemed so extreme that he was asked to leave after he began giving sermons three years ago. It has also emerged Abdulwahab visited radical Islamic websites and Facebook groups including one which offers advice on preparing for Judgement Day. Another website he visited - Yawm Al-Qiyaamah - shows pictures of Tower Bridge engulfed by flames and has more than 8,000 followers. His Facebook page features an Islamic flag being raised over a world in flames. On the page, he says he is a member of the group Islamic Caliphate State, which seeks to establish Islamic rule worldwide and adds: ‘I’m a Muslim and I’m proud. He also sent his wife an MP3 file ten minutes before he blew himself up. And his wife two years previous to the incident signed an online petition calling for the wearing of the veil to remain legal worldwide.

He was Sunni.

you may have noticed i called him murderer because when some one make a murderer , rape , any crime

i don't look at it as muslim or christian or western i don't try to make it look like not big deal

he's just a murderer

I find this refreshing and hope you have the same attitude towards Sargent Bales. He was an individual case and certainly not indicative of the average american to the best of my knowledge. What he did was abhorrent and he must pay for that, but I think he should be returned to the states to be handed over for research into the mind to see what went wrong. Nobody will be able to analyse his madness if his head is rolling on the ground in some distant country.

the Mohammad Reza Pahlavi is in iran .. personally i think shittes are not muslims so my view will be too biased to post

Fair enough. May I ask if that is based upon extremist views or differences with the interpretation of the religion itself?

[Lilly]

The subject of rape and torture of the innocent is indeed terrible. However, the actual subject of this thread is supposed to be if most Muslims believe in the idea of receiving 72 virgins as a reward in the afterlife. Let's try and get back on topic please.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Lilly
tag correction

[Knight Of Shadows]

psyche101 we can finish this in the right forum for it if you're that curious

for the virgins last i heared there was 99

so i think they got reduced due to the world financial problems probably

[hetrodoxly]

psyche101 we can finish this in the right forum for it if you're that curious

for the virgins last i heared there was 99

so i think they got reduced due to the world financial problems probably

I thought that was red balloons?