Trojans were Basques?

[The Puzzler]

G2a might hold some secrets...

The majority of all the male skeletons from the European Neolithic period that have so far yielded Y-DNA belong to haplogtoup G2a. There are only a few samples from this period because of the difficulty extracting nuclear DNA. The oldest skeletons confirmed by ancient DNA testing as carrying haplogroup G2a were five found in the Avellaner cave burial site for farmers in northeastern Spain and were dated by radiocarbon dating to about 7000 years ago.[5] At the Neolithic cemetery of Derenburg Meerenstieg II, north central Germany, with burial artifacts belonging to the Linear Pottery culture, known in German as Linearbandkeramik (LBK). This skeleton could not be dated by radiocarbon dating, but other skeletons there were dated to between 5,100 and 6,100 years old. The most detailed SNP mutation identified was S126 (L30), which defines G2a3.[6] G2a was found also in 20 out of 22 samples of ancient Y-DNA from Treilles, the type-site of a Late Neolithic group of farmers in the South of France, dated to about 5000 years ago.[7] The fourth site also from the same period is the Ötztal of the Italian Alps where the mummified remains of Ötzi the Iceman were discovered. Preliminary word is that the Iceman belongs to haplogroup G2a2b.[8] (earlier called G2a4) The latter is a rare group today in Europe, and the authors of the Spanish study indicated that the Avellaner men had rare marker values in testing of their short tandem repeat (STR) markers.

The only more recent haplogroup G skeletons were two haplogroup G2a men found in a high-status burial at Ergolding in present-day Bavaria, southern Germany, of the Merovingian dynasty period.

It seems more likely imo that Neolithic farmers were actually G2a types who penetrated into Europe around the late Neolithic timeframe.

The National Geographic Society places haplogroup G origins in the Middle East 30,000 years ago and presumes that people carrying the haplogroup took part in the spread of the Neolithic. Two scholarly papers have also suggested an origin in the Middle East, while differing on the date. Semino et al. (2000) suggested 17,000 years ago.[3] Cinnioglu et al. (2004) suggested the mutation took place only 9,500 years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G_(Y-DNA)

[cormac mac airt]

I appreciate the article, which I have read but find no validity in it concerning the movements of R1b into Western Europe at such an early timeframe.

The impact of the Bronze Age imo was more than enough to distribute R1b lines throughout Western Europe, so I really tend to disagree with the paper and that any R1b was in Western Europe prior to the early Bronze Age in the absence of any evidence yet shown.

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Reference Page 4 of my source, pictures "j" and "k" as well as the following (page 5):

Notable are the equivalent expansion times for all S116 (n=481), Td=8630 +/- 1529 BP and U106 (n=239), Td 8742 +/- 1551 years BP-related lineages.

also:

The initial arrival of farmers from Southwest Asia to the present-day

Greece occurred ca 9000 years BP. Outside of Southeast Europe, two

episodes of early farming are attested archeologically. The first

involved a maritime colonization of Crete ca 9000 years BP and

Southern Italy ca 8000 years BP and subsequently spread to coastal

Mediterranean France and Spain, as exemplified by impressed/cardial

pottery. The second involved a migration to Central Europe, from

Hungary to France, characterized by LBK (ca 7500 years BP). Within

a 3k-year period, the agricultural economy spread across Europe,

terminating in Britain and Scandinavia ~6000 years BP.

This study has evaluated the spatial and temporal distributions of

sub-clades of Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b-M269 in Europe, the

Near East, the Circum-Uralic region and the Caucasus, revealing the

major M412-defined phylogenetic dichotomy between the Central/

Western Europe and more easterly distributed representatives (Figure

1e and f, respectively). In addition, several additional sub-haplogroup

varieties, especially those in Central and Western Europe, display

patterns with geographic locality (Figure 1g–o) and clinality (Supplementary

Figure 1).

While you may want to believe that R1b was not in Europe until the Bronze Age the evidence suggests otherwise.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

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Reference Page 4 of my source, pictures "j" and "k" as well as the following (page 5):

also:

While you may want to believe that R1b was not in Europe until the Bronze Age the evidence suggests otherwise.

cormac

I don't WANT to believe anything, I want to get it correct and I as well as many others out there are not convinced this new paper has it right, especially since no R1b is showing up anywhere in Europe at this time frame and it seems more than obvious G2a farmers crossed into Europe bringing in the Neolithic Revolution rather than any R1b people. Maybe new tests are needed before any real confirmation on the R1b in Europe can be clarified.

"Per Sjödin and Olivier François have bravely pointed out the obvious in a new paper.* Whether the spread of R1b1b2 (R-M269) can be connected to the spread of farming depends on which mutation rate is used. If the evolutionary mutation rate is favoured, R1b1b2 could be linked to the Neolithic, but germline mutation rates point to a more recent expansion...This discussion has been common currency on these forums for many moons, but courage is required to go into print with a thought that could outdate almost everything previously published on R1b1b2 in peer-reviewed journals. Not that they come to a firm conclusion as to the date of R1b1b2's gallop across Europe. That is wise. We need more ancient DNA. At present we have a tiny number of samples of Y-DNA from Neolithic sites in Europe, in which haplogroup G2a predominated, and no R1b has turned up..."

Jean also writes: "However debate has swung to and fro over the dating of haplogroups. Geneticists in recent years have often used Zhivotovsky's evolutionary effective dating method for Y-DNA, which adjusts the calculated pedigree (genealogical) mutation rate, since in some populations the latter produced unexpectedly late dates. Unfortunately this ad-hoc adjustment seems generally misapplied, producing dating estimates two or three times too old. For example Marcin Woźniak and colleagues point out that the pedigree mutation rate for R1a1a1g [M458] is more consistent with the archaeological record for the Slavs. A study of the Caucasus region found that genealogical estimates gave a good fit with the linguistic and archaeological dates, while the evolutionary effective rates fell far outside them. Another line of enquiry is directly genealogical. Both surnames and Y-DNA haplogroups are passed down in the male line. A group of men with a surname of the same origin should have a common ancestor at the time of surname development. One study found that they mainly did, using a mutation rate similar to the genealogical rather than the evolutionary..."

http://miriamhakedosha.blogspot.com.au/2011/07/r1b-arrives-in-europe-post-1000-bc.html

Edited May 1, 2012 by The Puzzler

[cormac mac airt]

I don't WANT to believe anything, I want to get it correct and I as well as many others out there are not convinced this new paper has it right, especially since no R1b is showing up anywhere in Europe at this time frame and it seems more than obvious G2a farmers crossed into Europe bringing in the Neolithic Revolution rather than any R1b people. Maybe new tests are needed before any real confirmation on the R1b in Europe can be clarified.

What works against this is the following from the same paper:

The wave-of-advance models are designed to capture the history of hgR1b1b2 implicit in the assumptions of cultural or demic diffusion of agriculture in Europe and scenarios of more recent expansions. We also discuss the implications of using GMR estimates in a demic expansion model for the hgR1b1b2 data.

and

Recent expansions were started 3Ky ago, and we used the same 3 geographic origins as in the previous models.

So this ties the spread of agriculture with the recent expansion (c.1000 BC) of descendant lines of R1b1a2/M269 BUT as we already know agriculture had already spread well before that date.

Also from the same paper:

Historical events consistent with recent expansions from the south of Europe during the Bronze age or the Greek and Roman civilization in Europe and West Asia cannot be excluded, but the impact of such demographic events on European genomes requires confirmation from ancient DNA studies.

The latter of which means that while the possibility of recent expansion can't be excluded outright there is no evidence to substantiate the claim at this time. So the only thing that supports this claim, currently, is this paper and that's it.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

OK, well, I'm staying with a Bronze Age entry for R1b lines into any part of Central or Western Europe for now and a G2a line for the Neolithic farmers c.7000BC.

Ancient DNA suggests the leading role played by men in the Neolithic dissemination:

The impact of the Neolithic dispersal on the western European populations is subject to continuing debate. To trace and date genetic lineages potentially brought during this transition and so understand the origin of the gene pool of current populations, we studied DNA extracted from human remains excavated in a Spanish funeral cave dating from the beginning of the fifth millennium B.C. Thanks to a “multimarkers” approach based on the analysis of mitochondrial and nuclear DNA (autosomes and Y-chromosome), we obtained information on the early Neolithic funeral practices and on the biogeographical origin of the inhumed individuals. No close kinship was detected. Maternal haplogroups found are consistent with pre-Neolithic settlement, whereas the Y-chromosomal analyses permitted confirmation of the existence in Spain approximately 7,000 y ago of two haplogroups previously associated with the Neolithic transition: G2a and E1b1b1a1b. These results are highly consistent with those previously found in Neolithic individuals from French Late Neolithic individuals, indicating a surprising temporal genetic homogeneity in these groups. The high frequency of G2a in Neolithic samples in western Europe could suggest, furthermore, that the role of men during Neolithic dispersal could be greater than currently estimated.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/category/agriculture/

[The Puzzler]

Also, imo, it negates all archaeological evidence that places the LBK (Linear Pottery) as spreaders of agriculture in the Neolithic.

G2a3 (L30+, S126+, U8+)

Men who belong to this group but are negative for all its subgroups represent a small number today. This haplogroup was found in a Neolithic skeleton from around 5000 BC, in the cemetery of Derenburg Meerenstieg II, Germany, which forms part of the Linear Pottery culture, known in German as Linearbandkeramik (LBK).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G_(Y-DNA)

The densest evidence for the culture is on the middle Danube, the upper and middle Elbe, and the upper and middle Rhine. It represents a major event in the initial spread of agriculture in Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_Pottery_culture

To go against the LBK spreading agriculture is defying archaeology, which is why the G2a haplogroup or in this case G2a3, is also said to be the haplogroup that is associated with the spread of Neolithic farming, because it's found within this culture.

[cormac mac airt]

Also, imo, it negates all archaeological evidence that places the LBK (Linear Pottery) as spreaders of agriculture in the Neolithic.

To go against the LBK spreading agriculture is defying archaeology...

Not really as it applies to more Central European areas such as Germany and Poland but at a point in time of the 6th - 5th millenia BC which again predates any claim to a spread of agriculture c.1000 BC. And at a point in time when the evidence already suggests that R1a and R1b were already in Europe.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

I'll use Eupedia again:

G2a makes up 5 to 10% of the population of Mediterranean Europe, but is fairly rare in Northern Europe. The only places where haplogroup G2 exceeds 10% of the population in Europe are Cantabria, Switzerland, the Tyrol, south-central Italy (Molise, Central and Southern Apennine), Sardinia, northern Greece (Thessaly) and Crete - all mountainous and relatively isolated regions.

There are several theories regarding the origin of G2a in Europe. There are doubtlessly cumulative rather than exclusive.

Neolithic mountain herders

Chronologically, the first hypothesis is the advance of Neolithic farmers and herders from Anatolia to Europe between 9,000 and 6,000 years ago. In this scenario the Caucasian migrants would have brought with them sheep and goats, which were domesticated south of the Caucasus arbout 12,000 years ago. This would explain why haplogroup G is more common in mountainous areas, be it in Europe or in Asia.

The geographic continuity of G2a from Anatolia to Thessaly to the Italian peninsula, Sardinia, south-central France and Iberia already suggested that G2a could be connected to the Printed-Cardium Pottery culture (5000-1500 BCE). Ancient DNA tests conducted on skeletons from a LBK site in Germany as well as a Printed-Cardium Pottery site in southern France (Languedoc-Roussilon) confirmed that Neolithic farmers in Europe belonged primarily (even exclusively if assimilated local population are omitted) to haplogroup G2a.

Nowadays G2a is found mostly in mountainous regions of Europe, for example, Cantabria (over 10%) in northern Spain, Switzerland (10%), Austria (8%), Auvergne (8%) in central France, the mountainous parts of Bohemia (5 to 10%), and Wales (4%). It may be because Caucasian farmers sought hilly terrain similar to their original homeland, perhaps well suited to the raising of goats. But it is more likely that G2a farmers escaped from Bronze-Age invaders, such as the Indo-Europeans and found shelter into the mountains.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml

Then this:

The presumed homeland of R1b1b and Pre-Proto-Indo-European speakers is assumed to be in northern Anatolia and/or the North Caucasus. The Caucasus itself is a hotspot of haplogroup G. Therefore, it is entirely conceivable that a minority of Caucasian men belonging to haplogroup G (and perhaps also J2b) integrated the R1b community that crossed the Caucasus and established themselves on the northern and eastern shores of the Black Sea sometime between 7,000 and 5,000 BCE. Those Proto-Indo-European would have belonged evolved to R1b1b2a1 and G2a3b1a before their epic conquest of Europe starting timidly in the Balkans around 4000 BCE and completed when all the Atlantic fringe from Iberia to the British Isles was settled, around 2000 BCE. Contrarily to G2a* and G2a3*, which is more prevalent in mountainous areas, G2a3b1a is found uniformy throughout Europe, even in Scandinavia and Russia. More importantly, G2a3b1 is also found in India, especially among the upper castes. The combined presence of G2a3b1 across Europe and India is a very strong argument in favour of an Indo-European origin. The coalescence age of G2a3b1 also matches the time of the Indo-European expansion during the Bronze Age.

I like this site because a. the guy actually does appear to be up to date and knowledgable on the subject and b. as I said before,it's a matter of putting it together correctly according to archaeology and language and many other factors as well which I find he does logically.

Very little G2a is in Basques from what I know, maybe those very early farmers didn't find it good for farming or settle there as much or have been absorbed into the other lines. It is in Cantabria though, which is very close to Basque country.

[The Puzzler]

Just a thought:

Cantabria might hold a remaining G2a people, who were once in Basque country as well, old Cantabria went right up to the Basques - a Celtic influence has penetrated this area, with their R1b, with Rome too. G2a people may have spoken Basque but changes have kept it there, even thought the paternal lines were intrusive, mothers may have kept it alive in teaching their children to talk, a lack of staying power by the Celts in the country also means the original language redominates, whereas in Cantabria, even though it retains the G2a people, it became too overcome by R1b language influences, for a few possible reasons, because of the type of territory the families did not settle there as much, so the language did not hold as well in the family units, which didn't settle there - male lines in Cantabria held better because of the moutainous territory, but also males spoke the language of the intruders more. Even now, in many multicultural families here, the women speak in their own language while the man can speak English, I see it alot.

[The Puzzler]

Not really as it applies to more Central European areas such as Germany and Poland but at a point in time of the 6th - 5th millenia BC which again predates any claim to a spread of agriculture c.1000 BC. And at a point in time when the evidence already suggests that R1a and R1b were already in Europe.

cormac

Not sure what you mean by 1000BC. OK, I'll keep it under my hat for future reference as these studies progress along.

This is a bit of middle ground imo:

Those Proto-Indo-European would have belonged evolved to R1b1b2a1 and G2a3b1a before their epic conquest of Europe starting timidly in the Balkans around 4000 BCE and completed when all the Atlantic fringe from Iberia to the British Isles was settled, around 2000 BCE.

[cormac mac airt]

Those Proto-Indo-European would have belonged evolved to R1b1b2a1 and G2a3b1a before their epic conquest of Europe starting timidly in the Balkans around 4000 BCE and completed when all the Atlantic fringe from Iberia to the British Isles was settled, around 2000 BCE.

Which brings it right back around to R1b/M269 and descendant groups. And since the dates for Haplogroup G, particularly its descendant groups, aren't known with any specificity the best 'guesstimate' for G2a3b1 (parent to your G2a3b1a) based on the formers P303 mutation would suggest a date somewhere between c.3000 BC and 1100 BC. Which would make your G2a3b1a less than 3100 - 5000 years old (<1100 BC - 3000 BC).

Edited for further clarification.

cormac

Edited May 1, 2012 by cormac mac airt

[The Puzzler]

Which brings it right back around to R1b/M269 and descendant groups. And since the dates for Haplogroup G, particularly its descendant groups, aren't known with any specificity the best 'guesstimate' for G2a3b1 (parent to your G2a3b1a) based on the formers P303 mutation would suggest a date somewhere between c.3000 BC and 1100 BC. Which would make your G2a3b1a less than 3100 - 5000 years old (<1100 BC - 3000 BC).

Edited for further clarification.

cormac

Yes, but I think the transition into Europe in Neolithic is earlier than G2a3b1 or G2a3b1a.

I say it was more in the time of G2a3. (7500ybp - 5500BC) or even just G2a.

G2a3 (L30+, S126+, U8+)

Men who belong to this group but are negative for all its subgroups represent a small number today. This haplogroup was found in a Neolithic skeleton from around 5000 BC, in the cemetery of Derenburg Meerenstieg II, Germany, which forms part of the Linear Pottery culture, known in German as Linearbandkeramik (LBK).

I think the guy is saying that the G2a3b1a was a group who mingled with IE people and spread the language also at that time - that group may be later than G2a3. It would have formed out of the original Neolithic farmers though...

Info:

G2a3b1 (P303+ or S135+) and its subgroups

Main article: Haplogroup G2a3b1 (Y-DNA)

The G2a3b1 definable subgroups are heavily concentrated throughout Europe west of the Black Sea and Russia where G2a3b1 is often in the majority among G persons. Small percentages of G2a3b1 are found primarily in the area encompassed by Turkey, the Caucasus countries, Iran and the Middle East where the G2a3b1 SNP may have originated. G2a3b1 is also found in India.

The largest G2a3b1 subgroup based on available samples is one in which almost all persons have the value of 13 at STR marker DYS388. The L497 SNP (G2a3b1a2) encompasses these men. There are additional subgroups of DYS388=13 men characterized by the presence of specific SNPs or uncommon STR marker oddities.

The next largest G2a3b1 subgroup is characterized by the presence of the L13/S13 SNP (G2a3b1a1a). This subgroup is most common in north central Europe.

New testing in 2010 indicated that a substantial G2a3b1 subgroup characterized by having the U1 mutation (G2a3b1a1) exists primarily in the Caucasus Mountains region.

The final major subgroup is characterized by presence of the Z1903 SNP andso far by the value of 9 at marker DYS568. This latter DYS568=9 group contains a further large subgroup consisting overwhelmingly of Ashkenazi Jews.

The highest percentage of G2a3b1 persons in a discrete population so far described is on the island of Ibiza off the eastern Spanish coast.

G2a3b2 (L177+)

This G2a3b2 group is certainly smaller in numbers of men included than G2a3b1, but only a small amount of testing has occurred for the L177 mutations. So far the men positive for this have listed Irish, English, Dutch and Turkish (Armenian surname) ancestry. Several L177 subgroups based on shared STR marker oddities exist.

The number of STR marker values separating men in this group suggest G2a3b2 is a relatively old group despite the small number of men involved.^[16] The mutations involved are complicated and difficult to interpret. The L177.1 component is found at Y chromosome position 23397163; L177.2 at 25030912; L177.3 at 25750264.^[17] This SNP was first identified at Family Tree DNA in 2009.

http://en.wikipedia....ogroup_G_(Y-DNA)

Edited May 2, 2012 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

I don't want to be repetitive, but just to clarify...

The geographic continuity of G2a from Anatolia to Thessaly to the Italian peninsula, Sardinia, south-central France and Iberia already suggested that G2a could be connected to the Printed-Cardium Pottery culture (5000-1500 BCE). Ancient DNA tests conducted on skeletons from a LBK site in Germany as well as a Printed-Cardium Pottery site in southern France (Languedoc-Roussilon) as well as in Spain all confirmed that Neolithic farmers in Europe belonged primarily (even exclusively if assimilated local population are omitted) to haplogroup G2a.

Nowadays G2a is found mostly in mountainous regions of Europe, for example, Cantabria (over 10%) in northern Spain, Switzerland (10%), Austria (8%), Auvergne (8%) in central France, the mountainous parts of Bohemia (5 to 10%), and Wales (4%). It may be because Caucasian farmers sought hilly terrain similar to their original homeland, perhaps well suited to the raising of goats. But it is more likely that G2a farmers escaped from Bronze-Age invaders, such as the Indo-Europeans and found shelter into the mountains.

G2a3b1a, the Indo-European branch of G2a

The presumed homeland of R1b1b and Pre-Proto-Indo-European speakers is assumed to be in northern Anatolia and/or the North Caucasus. The Caucasus itself is a hotspot of haplogroup G. Therefore, it is entirely conceivable that a minority of Caucasian men belonging to haplogroup G (and perhaps also J2b) integrated the R1b community that crossed the Caucasus and established themselves on the northern and eastern shores of the Black Sea sometime between 7,000 and 5,000 BCE. Those Proto-Indo-European would have belonged evolved to R1b1b2a1 and G2a3b1a before their epic conquest of Europe starting timidly in the Balkans around 4000 BCE and completed when all the Atlantic fringe from Iberia to the British Isles was settled, around 2000 BCE. Contrarily to G2a* and G2a3*, which is more prevalent in mountainous areas, G2a3b1a is found uniformy throughout Europe, even in Scandinavia and Russia. More importantly, G2a3b1 is also found in India, especially among the upper castes. The combined presence of G2a3b1 across Europe and India is a very strong argument in favour of an Indo-European origin. The coalescence age of G2a3b1 also matches the time of the Indo-European expansion during the Bronze Age.

I read this as in Neolithic times G2a spread across Europe to Iberia - Printed Cardium pottery people. The original G2a pre-Bronze Age farmers sought refuge in hilly areas with the arrival of IE people.

Back in the Caucasus, some of these same original G2a people still in the original seat - evolving into G2a3b1a mixed with R1b1b2a1 people - and this group then also headed into Europe - carrying the R1b lineage and also spoke Indo-European. This group continued basically on the same path as the earlier G2a people, spreading out from the Caucasus to Iberia - this time dominating the previous earlier G2a lines, who now were pushed into the mountains.

[The Puzzler]

How about this, because I think it will be shown that Hittites carried alot of dna and language everywhere...

The Egyptians have tested autosomal and Y-DNA markers of three Pharaohs of the 18th dynasty : Amenhotep III, his son Akhenaten and grandson Tutankhamun. The aim was to determine the cause of death of Tutankhamun, who died at age 19. It appears to have been malaria.

Although not yet published officially, the Y-DNA results were said to confirm the paternity between the Pharaohs. The video from Discovery Channel shows the Y-STR results*, which appear to be R1b and indeed the European R1b1b2 rather than the Levantine/Egyptian R1b1a. R1b1b2 is quite rare in modern Egypt (2% of the population) and was assumed to have come mostly through the Greek and Roman occupation. R1b1a makes up 4% of the Egyptian male lineages and dates from the Paleolithic.

The 18th dynasty (starting in 1570 BCE) follows the period of Indo-European expansion to Europe (4300-2000 BCE), India, Persia and the Middle-East (1700-1500 BCE). The Hittites took over central Anatolia from 1750 BCE, and the Mitanni (of Indo-Iranian origin) ruled Syria from circa 1500 BCE.

Egypt's 18th dynasty inaugurated the New Kingdom after the Second Intermediate Period, when the Hyksos ("foreign rulers") took over power between 1650 and 1570 BCE. It is very possible that the 18th Dynasty was of Hyksos origin, which could be Hittite or of other Indo-European origin. The Hyksos were described as bowmen and cavalrymen wearing the cloaks of many colors associated with the mercenary Mitanni. This strongly suggest an Indo-European origin indeed, as the steppe people were mounted archers, and the Mitanni are of proven IE origin.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25663-Pharaoh-Tutankhamun-Akhenaten-and-Amenhotep-III-were-R1b

Might be why Akhenaten went totally against the Egyptian religion grain, because he wasn't actually Egyptian, Nefertiti looks the least Egyptian Egyptian I've ever seen, her deep set eyes are very European imo. They worshipped the Sun disk, also would be Helios, like Aea people of Colchis.

This might explain some of the complex myths that involve Greeks in Egypt - because a portion of Greeks imo, also evolved out of Hittites.

[cormac mac airt]

How about this, because I think it will be shown that Hittites carried alot of dna and language everywhere...

The Egyptians have tested autosomal and Y-DNA markers of three Pharaohs of the 18th dynasty : Amenhotep III, his son Akhenaten and grandson Tutankhamun. The aim was to determine the cause of death of Tutankhamun, who died at age 19. It appears to have been malaria.

Although not yet published officially, the Y-DNA results were said to confirm the paternity between the Pharaohs. The video from Discovery Channel shows the Y-STR results*, which appear to be R1b and indeed the European R1b1b2 rather than the Levantine/Egyptian R1b1a. R1b1b2 is quite rare in modern Egypt (2% of the population) and was assumed to have come mostly through the Greek and Roman occupation. R1b1a makes up 4% of the Egyptian male lineages and dates from the Paleolithic.

The 18th dynasty (starting in 1570 BCE) follows the period of Indo-European expansion to Europe (4300-2000 BCE), India, Persia and the Middle-East (1700-1500 BCE). The Hittites took over central Anatolia from 1750 BCE, and the Mitanni (of Indo-Iranian origin) ruled Syria from circa 1500 BCE.

Egypt's 18th dynasty inaugurated the New Kingdom after the Second Intermediate Period, when the Hyksos ("foreign rulers") took over power between 1650 and 1570 BCE. It is very possible that the 18th Dynasty was of Hyksos origin, which could be Hittite or of other Indo-European origin. The Hyksos were described as bowmen and cavalrymen wearing the cloaks of many colors associated with the mercenary Mitanni. This strongly suggest an Indo-European origin indeed, as the steppe people were mounted archers, and the Mitanni are of proven IE origin.

http://www.eupedia.c...ep-III-were-R1b

Might be why Akhenaten went totally against the Egyptian religion grain, because he wasn't actually Egyptian, Nefertiti looks the least Egyptian Egyptian I've ever seen, her deep set eyes are very European imo. They worshipped the Sun disk, also would be Helios, like Aea people of Colchis.

This might explain some of the complex myths that involve Greeks in Egypt - because a portion of Greeks imo, also evolved out of Hittites.

Everything I thought you'd learned just went right down the crapper with the above post.

It's bad enough I'm suffering through sinusitis and an upper respiratory infection, but after reading the above I'm tempted to give up.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

Everything I thought you'd learned just went right down the crapper with the above post.

It's bad enough I'm suffering through sinusitis and an upper respiratory infection, but after reading the above I'm tempted to give up.

cormac

lol OK, I was playing around...it's all good. I'll forget I made the post.

[The Puzzler]

What are your thoughts on R1b-S21 (U106)?

My fertile streak isn't over yet. Here is a brand new map of haplogroup R1b-S21, associated with the migration of Germanic peoples, especially tribes originating around the modern Netherlands, North-West Germany, Denmark and Norway, such as the Anglo-Saxons, the Franks, the Lombards, as well as the Danish and Norwegian Vikings.

http://www.eupedia.c...hread.php?26700

Where do you think the branching out from R1b lines might have occurred? (I've got 1000BC)

Because it seems to be a Frisian branch, I'm interested.

Edited May 2, 2012 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

The Suebi and Allemanni became Germans. The Suebi lived all throughout Sweden and down into Northern Germany. They appear to me to be where 'Fryans' would have been and the movements seem to be similar.

Apart from that though, they didn't actually call themselves Allemanni, which is an IE all-man meaning, but Suebi or Suevi, which makes me think they weren't actually speaking Germanic, possibly another pre-Germanic IE language, since sue-swe is very early PIE from what I know. Suebi/Suevi became Sweden and all of Scandinavia - back in the day when Snorri wrote, all the area was known as Greater Sweden. (Schoonland).

Germanic migrations just don't seem right for the timeframe of this haplogroup. Maybe early Suebi migrations/movements, who I suppose were proto-Germanic people...

We must come now to speak of the Suebi, who do not, like the Chatti or Tencteri, constitute a single nation. They actually occupy more than half of Germany, and are divided into a number of distinct tribes under distinct names, though all generally are called Suebi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suebi

The interesting thing with these people is, after the Franks arrival, they migrated to Galacia, in Spain and Portugal speading the Germanic R1b - U106 genes there.

Passing through the Basque country, they settled in the Roman province of Gallaecia, in north-western Hispania (modern Galicia and northern Portugal), swore fealty to the Emperor Honorius and were accepted as foederati and permitted to settle, under their own autonomous governance. Contemporaneously with the self-governing province of Britannia, the kingdom of the Suebi in Gallaecia became the first of the sub-Roman kingdoms to be formed in the disintegrating territory of the Western Roman Empire. Suebic Gallaecia was the first kingdom separated from the Roman Empire to mint coins.

The Suebic kingdom in Gallaecia and northern Lusitania was established at 410 and lasted until 584. Smaller than the Ostrogothic kingdom of Italy or the Visigothic kingdom in Hispania, it reached a relative stability and prosperity—and even expanded military southwards—despite the occasional quarrels with the neighbouring Visigothic kingdom.

Edited May 2, 2012 by The Puzzler

[cormac mac airt]

lol OK, I was playing around...it's all good. I'll forget I made the post.

The problem with your previous post, Puzzler, is that there is no such thing as R1b1b2/M269. It's R1b1a2/M269. So the part that says:

...which appear to be R1b and indeed the European R1b1b2 rather than the Levantine/Egyptian R1b1a.

Is actually saying:

...which appear to be R1b and indeed the European R1b1a2 rather than the Levantine/Egyptian R1b1a

Really?? I can forgive your not keeping up with the current and correct nomenclature, but your source is showing ignorance at its finest by presenting a defunct name as relevant to a current discussion. And the incorrect part is actually a descendant of R1b1a, which we know existed in the Levant and North Africa at low levels. This is one of many reasons I quit using Eupedia and other incompetent sources for information.

Where do you think the branching out from R1b lines might have occurred? (I've got 1000BC)

And you were questioning me on the "claim" of recent expansions of descendant lines of R1b1a2/M269 3kya (1000 BC), which came from the paper you presented. Do you not see the discrepancy here? And again, the only thing supporting the paper you presented is the self same paper. It says as much in its own presentation.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

The problem with your previous post, Puzzler, is that there is no such thing as R1b1b2/M269. It's R1b1a2/M269. So the part that says:

Is actually saying:

Really?? I can forgive your not keeping up with the current and correct nomenclature, but your source is showing ignorance at its finest by presenting a defunct name as relevant to a current discussion. And the incorrect part is actually a descendant of R1b1a, which we know existed in the Levant and North Africa at low levels. This is one of many reasons I quit using Eupedia and other incompetent sources for information.

And you were questioning me on the "claim" of recent expansions of descendant lines of R1b1a2/M269 3kya (1000 BC), which came from the paper you presented. Do you not see the discrepancy here? And again, the only thing supporting the paper you presented is the self same paper. It says as much in its own presentation.

cormac

OK, I see what you mean with Eupedia.

I do see the discrepancy, that's why I'm asking you - I'm willing to go either way based on what is the most likely scenario.

I'm still grasping some basic concepts yet, bear with me.

So all the branches coming from U106/S21 are from that lineage?

R1b1a2a1a1a (R-U106)

This subclade is defined by the presence of the marker U106, also known as S21 and M405.^[2][42] It appears to represent over 25% of R1b in Europe.^[2] U106/S21 still un-defined

R-U106* (R1b1b2a1a1a*)

U198

R-M467/S29/U198 (R1b1b2a1a1a1)

DYS439(null)/L1/S26

R-L1/S26 (R1b1b2a1a1a3)

L48

R-L48* (R1b1b2a1a1a4*)

L47

R-L47* (R1b1b2a1a1a4a*)

L44

R-L44* (R1b1b2a1a1a4a1*)

R-L45 and L46 and L146 (R1b1b2a1a1a4a1a1)

L148

R-L148 (R1b1a2a1a1a4b)

L257

R-L257 (R1b1a2a1a1a8)

Now:

M269 still un-defined

R-M269* (R1b1a2*)

L23 still un-defined

R-L23* (R1b1a2a*)

L150 still un-defined

R-L150* (R1ba2a1*)

L51/M412 still un-defined

R-L51*/R-M412* (R1b1a2a1a*)

P310/L11 still un-defined

R-P310/L11* (R1b1a2a1a1*)

U106

R-U106 (R1b1a2a1a1a)

P312

R-P312 (R1b1a2a1a1b)

R-L277 (R1b1a1a1b)

The charts didn't come up right but obviously I am looking at the 2 here: http://en.wikipedia....1a_.28R-U106.29

- anyway - all those are branches off M269 right, so U106 and P312 branched out of P310/L11 R1b (parent group)?

This Western European population is further divided between R-P312/S116 and R-U106/S21, which appear to spread from the western and eastern Rhine river basin respectively.

P310/L11 areas, should then be home to ancestors of U106? or what?

In addition, the sub-clade distribution map, Figure 1h titled "L11(xU106,S116)", in Myres et al. shows that R-P310/L11* (or as yet undefined subclades of R-P310/L11) occurs only in frequencies greater than 10% in Central England with surrounding areas of England and Wales having lower frequencies.^[7] This R-P310/L11* is almost non-existent in the rest of Eurasia and North Africa with the exception of coastal lands fringing the western and southern Baltic (reaching 10% in Eastern Denmark and 6% in northern Poland) and in Eastern Switzerland and surrounds.

Edited May 2, 2012 by The Puzzler

[cormac mac airt]

I do see the discrepancy, that's why I'm asking you - I'm willing to go either way based on what is the most likely scenario.

I'm never entirely sure where you're coming from as quite often when reading your posts I get the mental picture of a red kangaroo hopped up on 'speed'.

ISOGG has the best breakdown of R1b1a2:

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

R1b1a2 L265, M269, M520, S3, S10, S13, S17

• • • • • • R1b1a2* -

• • • • • • R1b1a2a L23/S141, L49.1/S349

• • • • • • • R1b1a2a* -

• • • • • • • R1b1a2a1 L150

• • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1* -

• • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a L51/M412/S167

• • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a* -

• • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1 L11/S127, L52, L151, P310/S129, P311/S128

• • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1* -

• • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a M405/S21/U106

• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a* -

• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a1 P107

• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a2 L6

• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a3 L217

• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a4 Z18, Z19

• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a4* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a4a Z14

• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a4a* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a4a1 Z372

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a4a1* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a4a1a L257/S186

• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a4b L325

• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5 Z381

• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5a Z156

• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5a* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5a1 L1/S26

• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5a2 P89.2

• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b Z301

• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b1 M467/S29/U198

• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2 L48/S162

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2a L47/S170

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2a* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2a1 L44/S171, L163

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2a1* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2a1a L46/S172

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2a1a* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2a1a1 L45, L164, L237

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2a2 Z159

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b Z9

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1 Z2

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a Z7

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1 Z5, Z8

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1a Z11

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1a* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1a1 Z12

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1a1* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1a1a L148/S173

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1b Z1

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1b* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1b1 Z6

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1b2 Z346

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1b2* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1b2a Z343

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b1a1c M365.4

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b2 Z326

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b2* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2b2a L188

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1a5b2c L200

• • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b P312/S116

• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b* -

• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b1 M65

• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b2 Z196

• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b2* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b2a M153

• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b2b L176.2/S179.2

• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b2b* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b2b1 M167/SRY2627

• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b2b2 L165/S68

• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3 S28/U152

• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3a M126

• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3b M160

• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c L2/S139

• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c1 Z367

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c1* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c1a L20/S144

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c1a* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c1a1 M228.2

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c1b Z34

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c1b* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c1b1 Z35

• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c2 L196

• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c3 Z49

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c3* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a Z142

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3c3a1 L562

• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3d Z36

• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3e Z56

• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3e* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3e1 L4/S178

• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3e2 S47

• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b3e3 Z144, Z145, Z146

• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4 L21/M529/S145, L459

• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4a M37

• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4b M222/Page84/USP9Y+3636

• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4c DF1/L513/S215

• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4c* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4c1 P66_1, P66_2, P66_3

• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4c2 L193/S176

• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4c3 L706.2

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4c3* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4c3a L705.2

• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4d L96

• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4e L144/S175, L195

• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4f L159.2/S169.2

• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4g Z253

• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4g* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4g1 L226/S168

• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4g2 L554

• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4h DF21/S192

• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4h* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4h1 P314.2/S220.2

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4h1* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4h1a L362

• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4h2 Z246/S280

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4h2* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4h2a DF25/S253

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4h2a* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4h2a1 DF5/S191

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4h2a1* -

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4h2a1a L627

• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4h2a1b L658

• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4h3 L720/S299

• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4h4 S190 (see Notes)

• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b4i L371

• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b5 L238/S182

• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a1b6 DF19

• • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1b L584

I would remind you to watch your sources as whatever you used in the previous post is again mixing defunct nomenclature with the more current ones in use.

In short, yes, they're all sub-groups of M269 and yes P310 would be ancestral to U106.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

In England around the timeframe we have the influx of Beaker folk, from Portugal, which is probably why the earliest Brits have a connection to Iberia.

The Beaker culture arrived around 2500 BC, introducing drinking and food vessels constructed from clay, as well as vessels used as reduction pots to smelt copper ores.^[31] It was during this time that major Neolithic monuments such as Stonehenge and Avebury were constructed. By heating together tin and copper, both of which were in abundance in the area, the Beaker culture people made bronze, and later iron from iron ores. The development of iron smelting allowed the construction of better ploughs, advancing agriculture (for instance, with Celtic fields), as well as the production of more effective weapons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England

The earliest form of Bell Beaker called the Maritime Bell Beaker probably originated in the vibrant copper-using communities of the Tagus estuary in Portugal around 2800 - 2700 BC and spread from there to many parts of western Europe.^[2][7] An overview of all available sources from southern Germany concluded that the Bell Beaker Culture was a new and independent culture in that area, contemporary with the Corded Ware Culture.^[8] This conclusion was supported by a review of radiocarbon dates for Bell Beaker across Europe, which showed that the earliest dates for Bell Beaker were 2900 BC in Iberia. This makes the style contemporary with Corded Ware, but beginning in a different region of Europe.^[9] Bell Beaker has been suggested as a candidate for an early Indo-European culture, more specifically, an ancestral proto-Celtic.

AN ANCESTRAL PROTO-CELTIC. This to me, ties in with the U106 beginnings.

Seems to me an ancestral proto-Celt R1b U106 was part of the Bell Beaker people expansion.

[The Puzzler]

I'm never entirely sure where you're coming from as quite often when reading your posts I get the mental picture of a red kangaroo hopped up on 'speed'.

In short, yes, they're all sub-groups of M269 and yes P310 would be ancestral to U106.

cormac

Thanks for the list - and one wonders why one finds this confusing...

A good analogy I guess, that's pretty much how I feel.

OK, good, I can work better now with the charts.

[cormac mac airt]

In England around the timeframe we have the influx of Beaker folk, from Portugal, which is probably why the earliest Brits have a connection to Iberia.

The Beaker culture arrived around 2500 BC, introducing drinking and food vessels constructed from clay, as well as vessels used as reduction pots to smelt copper ores.^[31] It was during this time that major Neolithic monuments such as Stonehenge and Avebury were constructed. By heating together tin and copper, both of which were in abundance in the area, the Beaker culture people made bronze, and later iron from iron ores. The development of iron smelting allowed the construction of better ploughs, advancing agriculture (for instance, with Celtic fields), as well as the production of more effective weapons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England

The earliest form of Bell Beaker called the Maritime Bell Beaker probably originated in the vibrant copper-using communities of the Tagus estuary in Portugal around 2800 - 2700 BC and spread from there to many parts of western Europe.^[2][7] An overview of all available sources from southern Germany concluded that the Bell Beaker Culture was a new and independent culture in that area, contemporary with the Corded Ware Culture.^[8] This conclusion was supported by a review of radiocarbon dates for Bell Beaker across Europe, which showed that the earliest dates for Bell Beaker were 2900 BC in Iberia. This makes the style contemporary with Corded Ware, but beginning in a different region of Europe.^[9] Bell Beaker has been suggested as a candidate for an early Indo-European culture, more specifically, an ancestral proto-Celtic.

AN ANCESTRAL PROTO-CELTIC. This to me, ties in with the U106 beginnings.

Seems to me an ancestral proto-Celt R1b U106 was part of the Bell Beaker people expansion.

Going back to a previous article I mentioned that actually has independant support, namely "A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe", the expansion date for U106 is 8742 +/- 1551 years BP (6742 +/- 1551 years BC). Obviously this greatly predates the Beaker Culture by several millenia. Also the point of origin of U106 would appear to be more inline with Germany/Poland and not Portugal, or more generally Iberia.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

Going back to a previous article I mentioned that actually has independant support, namely "A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe", the expansion date for U106 is 8742 +/- 1551 years BP (6742 +/- 1551 years BC). Obviously this greatly predates the Beaker Culture by several millenia. Also the point of origin of U106 would appear to be more inline with Germany/Poland and not Portugal, or more generally Iberia.

cormac

OK, thanks. 6742-1551 years is around 5200BC so maybe it's the beginnings of them - all righty then, I shall review the earlier R1b into Europe idea.

I'll edit and leave it at that for now.

Edited May 2, 2012 by The Puzzler