McCain Wouldn't, Romney Shouldn't, & Bush

[+and-then]

Was there even any positive results that Bush could have used in 2004 as political capital? OBL was still alive and Afghanistan and Iraq were still in progress.

The Taliban were in disarray in Afghanistan. The fighters in Iraq were unable to gain an upper hand at that point. No buildings were being hit by aircraft and falling down... Yeah....he had a little to crow about. I don't mind giving Oby credit for the decision to end UBL. In fact I think it's the ONLY good thing he's done in 3 years.

[CommunitarianKevin]

Hutton

Why act like he is alive when he is actually dead?

Because it keeps the story going sir. The public perception is manipulated by means of stories, and if there is one thing the government (and others) like to do, it's manipulate the public perception.

And they are very good at it.

First off, I don't know if they are very good at it...maybe people are just stupid...

And keep what perception going? That he is alive? So? I guess I am not understanding why it makes a difference...

Amy Sensor was convinced of two felonies, so should I "keep the story going?"

[Space Commander Travis]

The Taliban were in disarray in Afghanistan. The fighters in Iraq were unable to gain an upper hand at that point. No buildings were being hit by aircraft and falling down... Yeah....he had a little to crow about. I don't mind giving Oby credit for the decision to end UBL. In fact I think it's the ONLY good thing he's done in 3 years.

For an organisation that's supposedly in disarray, I must say the Taliban seem remarkably resilient.

As indeed do, if we're to believe what we're told in the News, Al Qeadea, since apparently yet another of their Plots has been foiled.

Though perhaps that was because the latest attempted Plot was from, allegedly, the Yemen branch. So what was the point of the obsession with Afghanisatan, if they have branches everywhere that are completely independent of each other and which have no need of a great central command network masterminded by a Mastermind (which is exactly how the structure of terrorist cells has always worked, of course, except in the mind of the Bush Administration).

[Babe Ruth]

First off, I don't know if they are very good at it...maybe people are just stupid...

And keep what perception going? That he is alive? So? I guess I am not understanding why it makes a difference...

Amy Sensor was convinced of two felonies, so should I "keep the story going?"

To keep alive the perception(story) that it was he who planned and executed the events of 11 September. To keep the public fearful so that the Global War On Terror may be perpetuated. To legitimize all that is done to the Constitution and rule of law in the name of 11 September. Rudy Giuliani is particularly good at it.

Just like me, there are alot of things YOU don't understand.

[CommunitarianKevin]

To keep alive the perception(story) that it was he who planned and executed the events of 11 September. To keep the public fearful so that the Global War On Terror may be perpetuated. To legitimize all that is done to the Constitution and rule of law in the name of 11 September. Rudy Giuliani is particularly good at it.

Just like me, there are alot of things YOU don't understand.

Oh I see...You think 9/11 was a conspiricy...

There are a lot of things I don't understand...but when I don't understand something I don't make up details or live in a dream world...

[Babe Ruth]

All I understand Hutton, is that the Official Conspiracy Theory, which you apparently embrace, is a damn lie.

There was no Boeing at Shanksville or the Pentagon, and the towers were brought down with explosive devices.

That is what the evidence shows. That you don't "understand" that is a personal problem.

[CommunitarianKevin]

All I understand Hutton, is that the Official Conspiracy Theory, which you apparently embrace, is a damn lie.

There was no Boeing at Shanksville or the Pentagon, and the towers were brought down with explosive devices.

That is what the evidence shows. That you don't "understand" that is a personal problem.

Well I guess it doesn't matter because the world is ending this year anyways right?

[zenfahr]

Dont be shocked when it doesn't..... still goin to have pay off your bills!!

Anyway on the topic... sorta. OBL, could have been and most likely was already dead before the Seals mission. If indeed Obama was successful, then IMO he did our country a big diservice by not allow us to see his body, see the evidence. He (scapegoat or not) was a villian here in the US, the people had a right to see this come to conclusion. Now we have more distrust in our govern't and more conspiracy theory.

edit to add more to my comment.

Edited May 9, 2012 by zenfahr

[CommunitarianKevin]

Dont be shocked when it doesn't..... still goin to have pay off your bills!!

Anyway on the topic... sorta. OBL, could have been and most likely was already dead before the Seals mission. If indeed Obama was successful, then IMO he did our country a big diservice by not allow us to see his body, see the evidence. He (scapegoat or not) was a villian here in the US, the people had a right to see this come to conclusion. Now we have more distrust in our govern't and more conspiracy theory.

edit to add more to my comment.

Well right, and I get that but it is not exactly good manners to show the body of a dead person on T.V. That p***es people off. I mean some soldiers burned some Qurans and how many people died? It was good international policy to not show the body. All I am saying is just because we don't do something or don't understand something doesn't mean there is something larger behind it.

I guess I'll say this...I used to be an ancient astronaut theorist...then I learned critical thinking and what good sources are. Nearly every person that writes the books or are the face of the theory know nothing about the stuff they are talking about. None of them have degrees in the area or even a record of have ever taken a class in the area. So when it comes to ancient art, for example, I am going to take the word of tons of experts who have spent their entire lives studying the topic and not some guy that has a degree in sports management.

I too used to think there was something to 9/11. I was stationed at Langley Air Force base (where the planes took off that shot down United 93, alledgely) and around there it was "common knowledge" that those planes took off that day armed and came back without their pay load. Around there it is "common knowledge" that F-16s from Langly Air Force base shot United 93. But then I thought about this...if this is some huge goverment cover-up, a huge conspiracy, why is the government allowing people at this base to just go around and talk about it? I guess that was to keep the conspiracy going? Its like the conspiracy theories are made up so the goverment can make people think they are doing more than they are.

[Babe Ruth]

Well whether 93 was shot down or not, whatever happened to the flight made it invisible to the human eye, both in cameras overhead and the eyes of about 10 first responders. To a man, those responders reported that they saw nothing that looked like passengers or Boeing wreckage.

[CommunitarianKevin]

Well whether 93 was shot down or not, whatever happened to the flight made it invisible to the human eye, both in cameras overhead and the eyes of about 10 first responders. To a man, those responders reported that they saw nothing that looked like passengers or Boeing wreckage.

See, even conspiracy theorists cannot keep their "facts" straight. The problem with conspiracy theorists is they believe anything and everything they read...I guess unless it is an official report from the government.

Edit: just caught this...

So to a "man" those responders reported...? So that's your evidence? A man? Why don't you believe my report? My report that 93 was shot down by F16s from Langley Air Force base? I mean I am a man and I am reporting it...

Edited May 9, 2012 by HuttonEtAl

[Space Commander Travis]

Well right, and I get that but it is not exactly good manners to show the body of a dead person on T.V. That p***es people off.

And assassinating someone and dumping their body in the ocean wouldn't?

[CommunitarianKevin]

And assassinating someone and dumping their body in the ocean wouldn't?

Are you looking for a reason to battle with everything I say? This man is behind terrorist attacks. Many people in the Muslim world are glad to see him gone. The fact that he was killed does not mean anything. Maybe he was supposed to be taken alive? (I know you will argue this point) but the point is, we just had an unarmed 17-year-old persued, shot, and killed in Florida and no one was imediately arrested.

They claim dumping his body in the water was according to Islamic Tradition. Though I do not have the time to verify that, I am inclined to believe that is the case based on my studies of Islam. Either way, buring his body creates a place to build a shrine. The last thing the world needs is a shrine dedicated to OBL.

So what are the issues you have with this statement?

[Babe Ruth]

See, even conspiracy theorists cannot keep their "facts" straight. The problem with conspiracy theorists is they believe anything and everything they read...I guess unless it is an official report from the government.

Edit: just caught this...

So to a "man" those responders reported...? So that's your evidence? A man? Why don't you believe my report? My report that 93 was shot down by F16s from Langley Air Force base? I mean I am a man and I am reporting it...

You are obviously unaware of it, living there at Langley, but there were television crews and other reporters on the scene at Shanksville, and they all issued reports. I've seen all of them, or nearly so. The vast majority of people interviewed on the scene reported there was nothing there suggesting a crashed 757. If you are unaware of that, it's a personal problem.

Let's not hijack this thread. If you're really interested, go to the Conspiracy section here at UM.

[Dredimus]

In the end, I believe that every messure should have been taken to ensure that he was captured alive. Let the courts have their say the same as we did with Saddam... If we want to send a message of "Democracy" and "Peace" to the world, especially the middle east, he should have been put on trial instead of covertly killed and dumped into the ocean.

[Space Commander Travis]

Are you looking for a reason to battle with everything I say? This man is behind terrorist attacks. Many people in the Muslim world are glad to see him gone. The fact that he was killed does not mean anything. Maybe he was supposed to be taken alive? (I know you will argue this point) but the point is, we just had an unarmed 17-year-old persued, shot, and killed in Florida and no one was imediately arrested.

They claim dumping his body in the water was according to Islamic Tradition. Though I do not have the time to verify that, I am inclined to believe that is the case based on my studies of Islam. Either way, buring his body creates a place to build a shrine. The last thing the world needs is a shrine dedicated to OBL.

So what are the issues you have with this statement?

And the momentary exultation of triumph was enough reason to let an intelligence opportunity of that size slip through their hands? If someone is responsible for terrorist attacks, then the way to show the world that America should be trusted as the global arbiter of justice is to gun him down - the 'Don't mess with Uncle Sam' approach? America expects its pontifications about other countries not following the law of the Gun to be taken seriously after that? It may not matter to those who are satisfied just to "Get " the bad Guy, but the only possible reason for not trying to get him in one piece was that the really knew that he was of no intelligence value, i.e. he wasn't actually the Mastermind behind the Global Terror Network, but was actually irrelevant to all practical ends, and that either the Global Terror Network could function perfectly well regardless of whether he was alive and kicking or dumped in the ocean, or that there was never actually any Global Terror Network in the first place, and that he was just the bogeyman that the U.S. had set up to cover for whatever errors or shortcomings (or anything else) that may have resulted in the events he was blamed for. Or, perhaps, that the Government knew secretly that if he was brought to an open court, then perhaps some rather embarrassing questions about said outrages might be brought up ....

.. or again, perhaps, that it wasn't actually ObL at all, and so had to be disposed of hastily before that could be proved or disproved.

So, yes, there are all sorts of good reasons - from the point of view of the U.S. Govt, or the Intelligence Services of it or its allies - why they mightn't have wanted to take him alive... but not many of them would seem to advance the cause of Justice, or America's claim to be the beacon of it for the world.

[Babe Ruth]

Good thoughts 747

I doubt very much that it was OBL for the simple reason that I have believed for years that he was already dead. Dialysis patients, especially older ones, require treatment that would be most difficult to find in the high mountain deserts of Asia.

But if it was somebody else, and that does appear to be the case because nobody denies that some sort of raid was carried out and a helicopter crashed, why did they say it was OBL? Why did they tell us at all? Why was it not a drone mission, about which we read almost every day in the newspaper?

I say if it really had been OBL, then like you say they would have simply captured him and brought him back to talk to him. More likely, they would have brought him back and made a spectacle of him in the media.