Sphinx and GP dates from 10 500 BC?

[DingoLingo]

Ok I started reading this thread.. then skipped a bit.. read a bit more..

Is this another ancient aliens kinda thread?

I know kmt is putting up very plausable theories etc..

Why must the answer be. its to big for ancient man to move.. it must be aliens all the time...

[Harte]

Why must the answer be. its to big for ancient man to move.. it must be aliens all the time...

Especially when we know aliens are very small.

Harte

[lliqerty]

Ok I started reading this thread.. then skipped a bit.. read a bit more..

Is this another ancient aliens kinda thread?

I know kmt is putting up very plausable theories etc..

Why must the answer be. its to big for ancient man to move.. it must be aliens all the time...

It must not be aliens. But it must be a civilization that not only had the ability to do such a thing but also have the desire to do it.

Neither question can be answered for Gobekli Tepe because we hardly know anything about the people who built it. Various features of other structures around the world are also beyond explanation. When you propose a theory, ALL features must be explained by it, otherwise the theory is wrong.

Plausible? What does that give you, Peace of mind?

Kinda, whatever your agenda, it is not Knowledge that you are seeking.

[lliqerty]

I'd hazard a guess at there being less contamination on a "new" site to an "old" one.

To balance your guess with mine, contamination may help, by measuring its extent (like that of erosion). Or they could take a sample from inside, or a place where there is no exposure, or the part that was buried until excavation. Any experts?

[DingoLingo]

Actually lliqerty for me I honestly believe that mankind in itself is far older then most people believe.. civilizations rise and fall.. technology is lost and rediscovered.. lands sink into the sea.. and new rise from the ocean floor.. deserts cover large areas of once was fertile ground..

Is the sphinx older the believed.. honestly.. I dont know.. but I'll put my money on the kmt theories then to some ancient alien coming down and making all these big stone blocks..

Is the arch boys wrong.. hell they could be.. Theories change over time.. new ways of looking at things or new discoveries change all fields of science.. and if someone prooves that it is older.. theories will change again.. but so far.. no one has..

as for knowledge Iliqerty.. knowledge.. all knowledge is valuable.. but so far.. all the theories that seem to be bandied by you.. and others of the same ilk.. seem to be pure speculation with no real proof to back up..

[docyabut2]

I believe if archeologists dig around the complex of Gobekli Tepe , they will also find talayotic houses dated to 3000 bc to 2000bc. There had to be a civllization that lived there to build the site, just like in the buliding of the great pyramids, not 11,000 years hunters and gathers that just came out of the woods

[questionmark]

I believe if archeologists dig around the complex of Gobekli Tepe , they will also find talayotic houses dated to 3000 bc to 2000bc. There had to be a civllization that lived there to build the site, just like in the buliding of the great pyramids, not 11,000 years hunters and gathers that just came out of the woods

The explanation could be easier: hunter gatherers who came from the north did not find an adequate cave for their worship so they built one. The signs are of a hunter gatherer culture, not an agricultural one.

[lliqerty]

The explanation could be easier: hunter gatherers who came from the north did not find an adequate cave for their worship so they built one. The signs are of a hunter gatherer culture, not an agricultural one.

Why did I not think of that! 10,000 BCE Hunter gatherers stopped hunting for a few days, and decided 'We'll cut 80 of those 50 ton rocks to precisely the same shape, we'll set them up in precise circles with walls around and everything'.

Oh, they were "hunter gatherers" so they did not live in houses or even wooden huts. But they were smart. "I have no doubt" they were able to figure out how to build them. Tools? "I have no doubt" they had some plastic ones. Of course.

So why do some people come up with ideas about ancient civilizations?

[thewatchman7]

Why did I not think of that! 10,000 BCE Hunter gatherers stopped hunting for a few days, and decided 'We'll cut 80 of those 50 ton rocks to precisely the same shape, we'll set them up in precise circles with walls around and everything'.

Oh, they were "hunter gatherers" so they did not live in houses or even wooden huts. But they were smart. "I have no doubt" they were able to figure out how to build them. Tools? "I have no doubt" they had some plastic ones. Of course.

So why do some people come up with ideas about ancient civilizations?

i think you may have misunderstood him

[questionmark]

i think you may have misunderstood him

I don't think it was accidental, that guy is on a mission to convert us to some alien-super-civilization that explains it all, so I tend to ignore the 14 year old with an attitude until he tables something substantial.

[cormac mac airt]

The explanation could be easier: hunter gatherers who came from the north did not find an adequate cave for their worship so they built one. The signs are of a hunter gatherer culture, not an agricultural one.

Could have also been much like the contemporary peoples of Kortik Tepe, 122 miles to the northeast, who show evidence of a lifestyle in many ways intermediate between hunter-gathers and more sedentery city-dwellers.

The Upper Tigris Valley, in the Anatolian part of the Fertile Crescent, has indisputable significance for the early Neolithic in terms of the opportunities it provided for the permanent settlement of human communities (Hauptmann 2002; Aurenche 2007). One of these settlements is Körtik Tepe, located in the province of Diyarbakir, near Pinarbasi, at the hamlet of the village called Agil, close to where the Batman Creek joins the Tigris (Figure 1).

Archaeological excavations at Körtik Tepe

Archaeological excavations in the mound commenced in 2000 and are still ongoing (Özkaya & San 2002; Özkaya et al. 2002; Özkaya 2004) (Figure 2). Each excavated area has revealed that the mound is rich in stratified material and has great significance in terms of cultural history (Figure 3). The data demonstrate that the Upper Tigris Valley was one of the primary regions of the Near East for the establishment of the earliest permanent settlements. In contrast to the communities leading a nomadic lifestyle, in Körtik Tepe food production technologies were developed and fishing was a common activity (Arbuckle & Özkaya 2006; Özkaya & San 2007). There is also evidence for weaving and architectural units were clearly built for the purpose of storing food (Özkaya & Coskun 2008).

Two main cultural phases have been ascertained. The upper phase is medieval, aspects of which are evident in the present day. The lower phase has been identified as Pre-Pottery Neolithic, represented through the body of the mound by structures, tombs and grave goods. The date is confirmed by burial rites, the style of stone and bone objects and 14C analyses which indicate that the mound was first settled in the tenth millennium BC (Özkaya & Coskun 2007; Özkaya & San 2007).

At least six distinct architectural phases can be determined in a continuous sequence (Özkaya & Coskun 2008). Each phase includes common features in terms of house plans, and reflects differences, particularly in burial rites and grave goods. The houses have earth floors encircled by thin stone walls (Figure 4a-c). Their diameters vary between 2.50-3.50m and may be located in open space or adjacent to each other. Similar structures are known from Hallan Çemi (Rosenberg & Davis 1992; Rosenberg 1994, 1999, 2007a), Demirköy (Rosenberg & Peasnall 1998; Rosenberg 2007b) and the earliest layers of Çayönü (Özdogan & Özdogan 1989; Özdogan 1999, 2007). Other structures, smaller in size, have pebbled floors and are thought to have been used for storage (Özkaya & San 2007; Özkaya & Coskun 2008) (Figure 3d).

The circular structures are located together, implying a permanently settled centre rather than a temporary camp for hunter-gatherers. The finds, notably from the tombs buried under the floors of the structures (Figure 5), suggest social differences in a socially advanced community. The differences in the quantity and quality of grave goods - such as stone vessels, thousands of stone beads, stone axes, and other tools - show variants of belief and social status among the earliest permanent community (Figure 6).

Relations with known centres in the region, such as Hallan Çemi, Demirköy and Çayönü, are noted in ground and chipped stone artefacts, obsidian and decorated and undecorated stone vessels (Figure 7). Some special finds feature images of animate figures in low relief (Figure 8) or incised (Figure 9).

Tools of flint and obsidian connect the culture at Körtik Tepe with contemporaries among other Near East cultures, and show that it is one of the earliest manifestations of settled life. At the same time the use of obsidian, most likely supplied from eastern Anatolia, points already to the presence of trade in the region.

The project at Körtik Tepe continues. The indications so far are that it is one of the earliest sites in western Asia to develop a permanent settlement, complete with trade, art, food production, religious ritual and social complexity.

http://antiquity.ac....rojgall/ozkaya/

cormac

Edited June 25, 2012 by cormac mac airt

[lliqerty]

Actually lliqerty for me I honestly believe that mankind in itself is far older then most people believe.. civilizations rise and fall.. technology is lost and rediscovered.. lands sink into the sea.. and new rise from the ocean floor.. deserts cover large areas of once was fertile ground..

Is the sphinx older the believed.. honestly.. I dont know.. but I'll put my money on the kmt theories then to some ancient alien coming down and making all these big stone blocks..

Is the arch boys wrong.. hell they could be.. Theories change over time.. new ways of looking at things or new discoveries change all fields of science.. and if someone prooves that it is older.. theories will change again.. but so far.. no one has..

as for knowledge Iliqerty.. knowledge.. all knowledge is valuable.. but so far.. all the theories that seem to be bandied by you.. and others of the same ilk.. seem to be pure speculation with no real proof to back up..

Dingo, what is proof? What standard of proof are you holding yourself up to?

Are you implying I do not have any proof for saying that Gobekli Tepe is 11,600 years old? (that is National Geographic).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool

According to this site, The transition from stone to metal tools roughly coincided with the development of agriculture around the 4th millennium BC.

They needed metal tools to shape the pillars. Is this not proof, to you, that the conventional theory needs not just a minor adjustment but needs to be completely re-written because the history of humanity has doubled.

Do you agree with that?

[questionmark]

Could have also been much like the contemporary peoples of Kortik Tepe, 122 miles to the northeast, who show evidence of a lifestyle in many ways intermediate between hunter-gathers and more sedentery city-dwellers.

http://antiquity.ac....rojgall/ozkaya/

cormac

Could be, but the ritual symbols don't correspond to a sedentary civilization. What is certain that at the end of the Gobeliki period sedentary living had become the norm. I was thinking more along the lines of Lascaux or Altamira, where the cult cave was not used as a dwelling either but just visited periodically by whomever built used it.

Edited June 25, 2012 by questionmark

[cormac mac airt]

Could be, but the ritual symbols don't correspond to a sedentary civilization. What is certain that at the end of the Gobeliki period sedentary living had become the norm. I was thinking more along the lines of Lascaux or Altamira, where the cult cave was not used as a dwelling either but just visited periodically by whomever built used it.

True enough and that's why I mentioned Kortik Tepe. It's not an either-or situation IMO between hunter-gatherers and city dwellers. Also, many are of the belief that Gobekli Tepe is located out in the middle of nowhere and there weren't any other contemporary sites anywhere even remotely close by. This can't be any further from the truth since we have Kortik Tepe and Hallam Jemi to the northeast; Jerf el-Ahmar, Mureybet and Tell Qaramel to the southwest and Tell Abu Hureyra to the south.

cormac

[lliqerty]

Could be, but the ritual symbols don't correspond to a sedentary civilization. What is certain that at the end of the Gobeliki period sedentary living had become the norm. I was thinking more along the lines of Lascaux or Altamira, where the cult cave was not used as a dwelling either but just visited periodically by whomever built used it.

"certain that at the end of the Gobeliki period sedentary living had become the norm"

Somebody is CERTAIN what HAD BECOME THE NORM.

Dismiss the the obvious (5,000 years before we had metal tools) but somebody is certain how things were done and what was the norm.

Why stick to the facts?

[questionmark]

True enough and that's why I mentioned Kortik Tepe. It's not an either-or situation IMO between hunter-gatherers and city dwellers. Also, many are of the belief that Gobekli Tepe is located out in the middle of nowhere and there weren't any other contemporary sites anywhere even remotely close by. This can't be any further from the truth since we have Kortik Tepe and Hallam Jemi to the northeast; Jerf el-Ahmar, Mureybet and Tell Qaramel to the southwest and Tell Abu Hureyra to the south.

cormac

It is evident that much of the transition from nomadic hunter to sedentary farmer/herder happened in Anatolia. The problem we have here is that there seems to be different cultures involved, Kortik Tepe seems to be predecessors of the Linear Ceramists (Bandkeramiker) that appeared to have settled later in central Europe. Jerf seems to be the same culture. The pottery found in Gobliki dates from a much later period and seems to be more according to the linear B decor. While at the same time organic refuse can be dated to around the same time as Kortik.

So, by the time pottery was adopted in Gobliki the surrounding sedentary cultures had been using it for at least 2000 years.

Now, there is a possibility that all refuse was removed from the holy sites and that is why we find no evidence of the pre-pottery A cultures on Gobliki and that they got a little more lax later about littering or that for the first 2000 years there was a taboo about the use of pottery... but that might be taking the thought a little too far.

ED missing naught

Edited June 25, 2012 by questionmark

[kmt_sesh]

Why did I not think of that! 10,000 BCE Hunter gatherers stopped hunting for a few days, and decided 'We'll cut 80 of those 50 ton rocks to precisely the same shape, we'll set them up in precise circles with walls around and everything'.

Oh, they were "hunter gatherers" so they did not live in houses or even wooden huts. But they were smart. "I have no doubt" they were able to figure out how to build them. Tools? "I have no doubt" they had some plastic ones. Of course.

So why do some people come up with ideas about ancient civilizations?

"Hunter-gatherer" would be the correct term because at that distant point in time, no intensive agriculture had yet taken place. But this hardly implies that they were a bunch of drooling, knuckle-dragging troglodytes. Whoever these people were, they were most likely of the same ethnicity and embraced a common culture, even if they weren't living together in cities. They may have occupied well-built huts in communal groups for at least part of the year, as was done by the Natufians in prehistoric Israel. There are numerous examples of well-organized, permanent or semi-permanent village communities in prehistory that did not involve agriculture.

We simply don't yet know enough about the people who built Göbekli Tepe. We cannot answer who they were ethnically, what language they spoke, or even much about their culture or religious practices. What do the figures mean which they carved onto their stone T-shaped pillars? Do they represent gods? Ancestors? Tribal totems? We don't know. The site of Göbekli Tepe can tell us only so much about them, and to this point large areas of the site haven't even been excavated. There's much more to learn. Even to this time there remains no evidence of inhabitations at Göbekli Tepe, which still suggests that it was a shared religious gathering site for these people, but not a place for them to live.

But I sense in your post the same sort of exaggerations many people apply to the stone blocks of the Great Pyramid. Precise? No. They're rough-cut limestone pillars with fairly crude figural carvings. These pillars at Göbekli Tepe probably once held rafters for some sort of roof, meaning some of the arrangements were composed of circular buildings. Modern architectural mathematics were hardly required for these prehistoric people to set up stone pillars in the shape of a circle.

[The Word of Thoth]

ER.... can i just wade in and ask anyone about the so called weathering marks on the side of the sphinx? Or has this been covered already in the thread (i know im being a tad lazy please forgive)

[lliqerty]

"Hunter-gatherer" would be the correct term because at that distant point in time, no intensive agriculture had yet taken place. But this hardly implies that they were a bunch of drooling, knuckle-dragging troglodytes. Whoever these people were, they were most likely of the same ethnicity and embraced a common culture, even if they weren't living together in cities. They may have occupied well-built huts in communal groups for at least part of the year, as was done by the Natufians in prehistoric Israel. There are numerous examples of well-organized, permanent or semi-permanent village communities in prehistory that did not involve agriculture.

We simply don't yet know enough about the people who built Göbekli Tepe. We cannot answer who they were ethnically, what language they spoke, or even much about their culture or religious practices. What do the figures mean which they carved onto their stone T-shaped pillars? Do they represent gods? Ancestors? Tribal totems? We don't know. The site of Göbekli Tepe can tell us only so much about them, and to this point large areas of the site haven't even been excavated. There's much more to learn. Even to this time there remains no evidence of inhabitations at Göbekli Tepe, which still suggests that it was a shared religious gathering site for these people, but not a place for them to live.

But I sense in your post the same sort of exaggerations many people apply to the stone blocks of the Great Pyramid. Precise? No. They're rough-cut limestone pillars with fairly crude figural carvings. These pillars at Göbekli Tepe probably once held rafters for some sort of roof, meaning some of the arrangements were composed of circular buildings. Modern architectural mathematics were hardly required for these prehistoric people to set up stone pillars in the shape of a circle.

kmt, I agree with your second paragraph which basically lists a lot more about what we do not know than I ever did.

I also did not say that it required "Modern architectural mathematics". However, I will say that it required significant amount of organization to place some 20 vertical pillar partially enshrined in a circular double wall, and copy this setup more than a dozen times. How many man-hours of work is it estimated to require to do just one of them?

"Hunter-gatherer", I am not arguing about semantics. But your suggestion of "semi-permanent" is not supported by any evidence. There are no settlements anywhere nearby from that time.

You are making people believe that this was accomplished by people who did not even use any kind of rocks for their home. You are making people believe that these Hunter gatherers lived in huge communities that would allow for this kind of a major project. Yet there are not even signs of fire or cooking.

Talking about the carvings, how did they create reliefs that stick out, and how much additional labor would that take? (And how did they make a perfectly round hole?)

You are brushing over the fact that to shape rocks you need metal tools. And the fact that metal tools are known to have existed only > 4000 years later. Are you pretending that this is a minor detail?

I am simply pointing out facts, and because you do not like the conclusion that you yourselves draw, you provide diverting information to distract from the central issue. Only consider the facts you know 100% (they used metal tools 11,600 years ago). Explain this before you go on to any distraction.

to see more go here http://miscellaneous-pics.blogspot.com/2011/02/gobekli-tepe.html

[questionmark]

kmt, I agree with your second paragraph which basically lists a lot more about what we do not know than I ever did.

I also did not say that it required "Modern architectural mathematics". However, I will say that it required significant amount of organization to place some 20 vertical pillar partially enshrined in a circular double wall, and copy this setup more than a dozen times. How many man-hours of work is it estimated to require to do just one of them?

"Hunter-gatherer", I am not arguing about semantics. But your suggestion of "semi-permanent" is not supported by any evidence. There are no settlements anywhere nearby from that time.

You are making people believe that this was accomplished by people who did not even use any kind of rocks for their home. You are making people believe that these Hunter gatherers lived in huge communities that would allow for this kind of a major project. Yet there are not even signs of fire or cooking.

Talking about the carvings, how did they create reliefs that stick out, and how much additional labor would that take? (And how did they make a perfectly round hole?)

You are brushing over the fact that to shape rocks you need metal tools. And the fact that metal tools are known to have existed only > 4000 years later. Are you pretending that this is a minor detail?

I am simply pointing out facts, and because you do not like the conclusion that you yourselves draw, you provide diverting information to distract from the central issue. Only consider the facts you know 100% (they used metal tools 11,600 years ago). Explain this before you go on to any distraction.

to see more go here http://miscellaneous...bekli-tepe.html

The reason that the so reviled school archeology considers the place semi permanent is that absolutely nothing has been found that indicates any type of social activity. Instead of spreading around your authoritative opinion I would apply myself in reading up on the findings on the ground. But that could preclude aliens from being the builder.

Edited June 25, 2012 by questionmark

[lliqerty]

"Hunter-gatherer" would be the correct term because at that distant point in time, no intensive agriculture had yet taken place. But this hardly implies that they were a bunch of drooling, knuckle-dragging troglodytes. Whoever these people were, they were most likely of the same ethnicity and embraced a common culture, even if they weren't living together in cities. They may have occupied well-built huts in communal groups for at least part of the year, as was done by the Natufians in prehistoric Israel. There are numerous examples of well-organized, permanent or semi-permanent village communities in prehistory that did not involve agriculture.

We simply don't yet know enough about the people who built Göbekli Tepe. We cannot answer who they were ethnically, what language they spoke, or even much about their culture or religious practices. What do the figures mean which they carved onto their stone T-shaped pillars? Do they represent gods? Ancestors? Tribal totems? We don't know. The site of Göbekli Tepe can tell us only so much about them, and to this point large areas of the site haven't even been excavated. There's much more to learn. Even to this time there remains no evidence of inhabitations at Göbekli Tepe, which still suggests that it was a shared religious gathering site for these people, but not a place for them to live.

But I sense in your post the same sort of exaggerations many people apply to the stone blocks of the Great Pyramid. Precise? No. They're rough-cut limestone pillars with fairly crude figural carvings. These pillars at Göbekli Tepe probably once held rafters for some sort of roof, meaning some of the arrangements were composed of circular buildings. Modern architectural mathematics were hardly required for these prehistoric people to set up stone pillars in the shape of a circle.

kmt, I agree with your second paragraph which basically lists a lot more about what we do not know than I ever did.

see pictures here http://miscellaneous...bekli-tepe.html

I also did not say that it required "Modern architectural mathematics". However, I will say that it required significant amount of organization to place some 20 vertical pillars partially enshrined in a circular double wall, and copy this type of setup more than a dozen times. How many man-hours of work is it estimated to require to do just one of them? Can this be done by hunter gatherers?

"Hunter-gatherer", I am not arguing about semantics. But your suggestion of "semi-permanent" is not supported by any evidence. There are no settlements anywhere nearby from that time.

You are making people believe that this was accomplished by people who did not even use any kind of rocks for their own home. You are making people believe that these Hunter gatherers lived in huge communities that would allow for this kind of a major project. Yet there are not even signs of fire or cooking. How gullible are people to believe such incongruity?

Talking about the carvings, how did they create reliefs that stick out, and how much additional labor would that take? And artistic training? (And how did they make a perfectly round hole? With a chisel?

You are brushing over the fact that to shape rocks you need metal tools. And the fact that metal tools are known to have existed only > 4000 years later. Are you pretending that this is a minor detail?

I am simply asking questions, and because you and your friends do not like the conclusions that you yourselves draw (because there is no other conclusion), you provide diverting information to distract from the central issue. Only consider the facts you know 100% (they used metal tools 11,600 years ago). Explain this before you go on to any distraction.

Edited June 25, 2012 by lliqerty

[questionmark]

ER.... can i just wade in and ask anyone about the so called weathering marks on the side of the sphinx? Or has this been covered already in the thread (i know im being a tad lazy please forgive)

Sorry for the late answer, ehm yes, has been discussed and dismissed which is why we are discussing Gobeliki and Baalbeck now. An attempt in aging the Sphinx through the back door, so to say.

[cormac mac airt]

kmt, I agree with your second paragraph which basically lists a lot more about what we do not know than I ever did.

see pictures here http://miscellaneous...bekli-tepe.html

I also did not say that it required "Modern architectural mathematics". However, I will say that it required significant amount of organization to place some 20 vertical pillars partially enshrined in a circular double wall, and copy this type of setup more than a dozen times. How many man-hours of work is it estimated to require to do just one of them? Can this be done by hunter gatherers?

"Hunter-gatherer", I am not arguing about semantics. But your suggestion of "semi-permanent" is not supported by any evidence. There are no settlements anywhere nearby from that time.

You are making people believe that this was accomplished by people who did not even use any kind of rocks for their own home. You are making people believe that these Hunter gatherers lived in huge communities that would allow for this kind of a major project. Yet there are not even signs of fire or cooking. How gullible are people to believe such incongruity?

Talking about the carvings, how did they create reliefs that stick out, and how much additional labor would that take? And artistic training? (And how did they make a perfectly round hole? With a chisel?

You are brushing over the fact that to shape rocks you need metal tools. And the fact that metal tools are known to have existed only > 4000 years later. Are you pretending that this is a minor detail?

I am simply asking questions, and because you and your friends do not like the conclusions that you yourselves draw (because there is no other conclusion), you provide diverting information to distract from the central issue. Only consider the facts you know 100% (they used metal tools 11,600 years ago). Explain thisbefore you go on to any distraction.

Your evidence for the bold portion above is what?

cormac

Edited June 25, 2012 by cormac mac airt

[Alcibiades9]

Somebody is CERTAIN what HAD BECOME THE NORM.

You should never be surprised at what people on here who spout the purely orthodox line regard as certainties .

Given the authority with which they proclaim what was the norm and what wasn't several thousand years ago, they clearly either have a time machine or actually lived through those ancient eras themselves. Which would make them roughly the same age as Nancy Reagan.

[kmt_sesh]

kmt, I agree with your second paragraph which basically lists a lot more about what we do not know than I ever did.

I also did not say that it required "Modern architectural mathematics". However, I will say that it required significant amount of organization to place some 20 vertical pillar partially enshrined in a circular double wall, and copy this setup more than a dozen times. How many man-hours of work is it estimated to require to do just one of them?

"Hunter-gatherer", I am not arguing about semantics. But your suggestion of "semi-permanent" is not supported by any evidence. There are no settlements anywhere nearby from that time.

You are making people believe that this was accomplished by people who did not even use any kind of rocks for their home. You are making people believe that these Hunter gatherers lived in huge communities that would allow for this kind of a major project. Yet there are not even signs of fire or cooking.

Talking about the carvings, how did they create reliefs that stick out, and how much additional labor would that take? (And how did they make a perfectly round hole?)

You are brushing over the fact that to shape rocks you need metal tools. And the fact that metal tools are known to have existed only > 4000 years later. Are you pretending that this is a minor detail?

I am simply pointing out facts, and because you do not like the conclusion that you yourselves draw, you provide diverting information to distract from the central issue. Only consider the facts you know 100% (they used metal tools 11,600 years ago). Explain this before you go on to any distraction.

to see more go here http://miscellaneous...bekli-tepe.html

Permanent or seasonally occupied settlements are attested in the wider region, which is why I mentioned the Natufian culture. The example stands as a plausible model. I agree with you that this is not attested at Göbekli Tepe, but as several of have posted, our understanding of this site and its environs is still very limited. A great deal more work remains to be done in the field before we have a clearer picture. Future excavations may yield nearby sites of contemporary inhabitation, or nothing at all.

I agree with you about the organizational factor. Göbekli Tepe absolutely required a well-organzied and governed workforce, and evidently over the span of generations. It's an impressive accomplishment, no doubt about it. At the same time we should not fall into the trap of thinking semi-nomads could not have accomplished this. People working together for a common cause, under the leadership of intelligent leaders, is all that was required.

But please do not misrepresent me. In none of my posts did I suggest the people who created Göbekli Tepe were living in "huge communities." I merely posited the possibility of settlements or villages, which may have incorporated no more than a few dwellings.

As for the carvings and how they were done, the pillars are carved out of limestone. This is one of the world's softest and most malleable stones, which is why so many ancient peoples turned to it for their construction projects. In point of fact stone tools can easily work limestone and other soft stones. Look at the Aztecs: they are recent to us in time, and they carved beautiful things, but there is no evidence of which I'm aware that they used metal tools. I'm not familiar enough with the archaeology of Göbekli Tepe or neighboring contemporary sites to be authoritative on their building skills, but the absence of metal tools does not mean they could not carve limestone pillars with figural ornaments. And for all I know they did use copper tools—copper is easily produced, easily worked, and in some deposits can be retrieved without quarrying. And it was abundant in Anatolia. I'm not saying the people of Göbekli Tepe definitely used copper tools because I don't personally know one way or the other, but the possibility exists.

The form of carving is simply bas relief or low-raised relief. There's nothing mysterious or remarkable about it.

What can we dispute out of hand? Well, we can ignore ridiculous and uncorroborated scenarios like ancient aliens of lost civilizations, which means we can go by only what the evidence tells us right now. The evidence is only partial, but right now it shows us a Neolithic people with the capability to erect these ancient temple sites.