Iran Nuclear Program: U.S. Believes

[+and-then]

Anti Jewish and anti semitic mean the same thing when used in the context of your post.

Then it was an error in my phrasing. I think of an anti Semite as being a true HATER of all things Jewish...not just someone who disagrees with Israeli policies. I can't recall anyone here that I truly think of as an anti Semite by my definition. Though some might be close.

[SteveBronfman]

I personally avoid the term anti-Semitism preferring Jew-hatred or Judeophobia largely because of the stupid semantic Arab argument that since they too are semites they can't be anti-semites when of course they can hate Jews.

What is clear about Dside is he's obsessed with Israel and to my knowledge every single one of his posts is anti-Israel. A good gauge I use for distinguishing between Jew haters and anti-Zionists (although I believe to deny Jews self-determination is Jew hatred, what I mean by this is those who would be happy for Israel to exist within the 1948 borders) is I ask them which Israeli party they would be happy with in power. Would they prefer Kadima? Labour? Meretz? The Jew haters don't distinguish between political parties they hate Israel regardless of it's practices or policies. I believe Dside falls into this catagory.

Dside's declared many times he wants to dismantle Israel. To deny Jews the right of self-determination is anti-Jewish it's that simple. If he called for the dismantling of Pakistan, Turkey, and other countries created for religious reasons and/or occupying minorities then I'd at least say I don't agree with him but he's logically consistant. Since this isn't the case I have to conclude since he applies his logic to one country and one country only, Israel, then he is Judeophobic.

I should state that while I don't agree mostly with Expand My Mind I don't think he's a Jew hater, for instance, he seems to apply his morals to Israel's neighbours too. Dside is happy to ignore any crime of Israel's neighbours while for him Israel can literally do nothing right except commit national suicide.

Edited August 17, 2012 by SteveBronfman

[buckskin scout]

I personally avoid the term anti-Semitism preferring Jew-hatred or Judeophobia largely because of the stupid semantic Arab argument that since they too are semites they can't be anti-semites when of course they can hate Jews.

What is clear about Dside is he's obsessed with Israel and to my knowledge every single one of his posts is anti-Israel. A good gauge I use for distinguishing between Jew haters and anti-Zionists (although I believe to deny Jews self-determination is Jew hatred, what I mean by this is those who would be happy for Israel to exist within the 1948 borders) is I ask them which Israeli party they would be happy with in power. Would they prefer Kadima? Labour? Meretz? The Jew haters don't distinguish between political parties they hate Israel regardless of it's practices or policies. I believe Dside falls into this catagory.

Dside's declared many times he wants to dismantle Israel. To deny Jews the right of self-determination is anti-Jewish it's that simple. If he called for the dismantling of Pakistan, Turkey, and other countries created for religious reasons and/or occupying minorities then I'd at least say I don't agree with him but he's logically consistant. Since this isn't the case I have to conclude since he applies his logic to one country and one country only, Israel, then he is Judeophobic.

I should state that while I don't agree mostly with Expand My Mind I don't think he's a Jew hater, for instance, he seems to apply his morals to Israel's neighbours too. Dside is happy to ignore any crime of Israel's neighbours while for him Israel can literally do nothing right except commit national suicide.

Okay, now, SteveBronfman and 'and then', I have a theory... what if God snapped His fingers... and Israelis and Palestinians traded roles? What would you feel about that? Tell the truth, in that nothing changed, everything remained exactly as it does today... a perfect role reversal. Nothing is different just the players changed roles like foreign exchange students. Answer me honestly, would you be outraged over the plight of the Israelis?

[SteveBronfman]

That's actually a good question.

So Israel suddenly receives more aid money per capita than any other group in history (more than Europe under the Marshall plan per capita) and have the backing of the UN, Russia and 1.5 billion Jews (including 56 Jewish countries) and Israelis are the majority of Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza with a sizable minority in "Palestine".

I'd take that swap.

Edited August 17, 2012 by SteveBronfman

[buckskin scout]

That's actually a good question.

So Israel suddenly receives more aid money per capita than any other group in history (more than Europe under the Marshall plan per capita) and have the backing of the UN, Russia and 1.5 billion Jews (including 56 Jewish countries) and Israelis are the majority of Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza with a sizable minority in "Palestine".

I'd take that swap.

No, I did not say contend a swap between the whole Arab world and Israel... just the peoples in the current state of Israel, Gaza, the occupied territories, and refugee camps in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon. Lets they swap histories, destinies, and demographs from back to say 1880 to 2012.

Edited August 17, 2012 by dside

[+and-then]

No, I did not say contend a swap between the whole Arab world and Israel... just the peoples in the current state of Israel, Gaza, the occupied territories, and refugee camps in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon. Lets they swap histories, destinies, and demographs from back to say 1880 to 2012.

It still wouldn't work, dside. The hatred would still be there - just swapped to a different place. Same result though.

[buckskin scout]

It still wouldn't work, dside. The hatred would still be there - just swapped to a different place. Same result though.

And whose side would you defend? Would you be pro-Israeli or pro-Palestinian? And why?

[+and-then]

And whose side would you defend? Would you be pro-Israeli or pro-Palestinian? And why?

You never give it a rest, do you? If it were the Israelis who were mindlessly hating the Palestinians, unwilling to even talk to them seriously about a settlement, demanding nothing less than EVERYTHING, I would be VERY conflicted. In fact I think it might make me doubt my faith to a certain extent. But ultimately I would hold my nose and support Israel. And I have often given the reason why, just as you have often disputed said reasoning. But this is NOT the reality. The reality is that it is the Palestinians who are the intransigent ones. Please do not post a ream of evidence that I don't have time to read.

[Guest]

You never give it a rest, do you? If it were the Israelis who were mindlessly hating the Palestinians, unwilling to even talk to them seriously about a settlement, demanding nothing less than EVERYTHING, I would be VERY conflicted. In fact I think it might make me doubt my faith to a certain extent. But ultimately I would hold my nose and support Israel. And I have often given the reason why, just as you have often disputed said reasoning. But this is NOT the reality. The reality is that it is the Palestinians who are the intransigent ones. Please do not post a ream of evidence that I don't have time to read.

Says it all. A sad mental state to be in.

Br Cornelius

[Guest]

It seems that the attack maybe imment and nothing to do with Irans current military status. The Israelis see a window of opportunity to force America's hand before the USA election - after which the window of opportunity will close for another 5yrs;

http://www.businessinsider.com/ex-cia-analyst-explains-the-real-reason-israel-wants-to-strike-iran-before-the-us-election-2012-8#ixzz22XeIoqiA

Propaganda to serve Israel's long term strategic interest's.

Br Cornelius

[ExpandMyMind]

It seems that the attack maybe imment and nothing to do with Irans current military status. The Israelis see a window of opportunity to force America's hand before the USA election - after which the window of opportunity will close for another 5yrs;

http://www.businessi...8#ixzz22XeIoqiA

Propaganda to serve Israel's long term strategic interest's.

Br Cornelius

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=231835

[A rather obscure Bassoon]

http://www.unexplain...howtopic=231835

If an attack is to be made,now will be a good time.Syria is in Chaos,so Isreali jets could use their airspace.Iraq doesn't pose a problem but Iranian air defences and Radar which they acquired from China is quite formidable so expect them to lose a couple of planes or so.Wonder if Uncle Obama will send them a few more Bunker busting bombs?

Edited August 18, 2012 by shaddow134

[+and-then]

If an attack is to be made,now will be a good time.Syria is in Chaos,so Isreali jets could use their airspace.Iraq doesn't pose a problem but Iranian air defences and Radar which they acquired from China is quite formidable so expect them to lose a couple of planes or so.Wonder if Uncle Obama will send them a few more Bunker busting bombs?

If Israel does attack, it will be an act of desperation. They know better than anyone what they risk. They will lose more than a few planes I imagine. They almost certainly will lose a few hundred civilians and a huge amount of commerce since Tel Aviv appears to be the main target. And if the war actually begins I hope that people remember that Israel LOSING would be a very bad thing for us all.

[Guest]

If Israel does attack, it will be an act of desperation. They know better than anyone what they risk. They will lose more than a few planes I imagine. They almost certainly will lose a few hundred civilians and a huge amount of commerce since Tel Aviv appears to be the main target. And if the war actually begins I hope that people remember that Israel LOSING would be a very bad thing for us all.

Why ?

Br Cornelius

[+and-then]

Why ?

Br Cornelius

What do you envision an Israeli loss to be? Words at the UN, new flags flying over Haifa, Tel Aviv and Jerusalem? The end of a Zionist dream and of course utopia for the freed Palestinians? Nah..... Imagine Houla, Syria - but on steroids. It would be a blood bath so sickening that the world would have to intervene, albeit at the very end. It would nauseate you the savagery you would witness, well, except the media wouldn't show much of it.

Apparently you disbelieve this scenario OR are willing to risk seeing a nuclear conflict blossom in the M.E. You see, Brutha, they will NEVER be uprooted again to wander. They WILL bleed, badly. But they will never again die alone. Any fair minded person should be okay with that.

[Guest]

What do you envision an Israeli loss to be? Words at the UN, new flags flying over Haifa, Tel Aviv and Jerusalem? The end of a Zionist dream and of course utopia for the freed Palestinians? Nah..... Imagine Houla, Syria - but on steroids. It would be a blood bath so sickening that the world would have to intervene, albeit at the very end. It would nauseate you the savagery you would witness, well, except the media wouldn't show much of it.

Apparently you disbelieve this scenario OR are willing to risk seeing a nuclear conflict blossom in the M.E. You see, Brutha, they will NEVER be uprooted again to wander. They WILL bleed, badly. But they will never again die alone. Any fair minded person should be okay with that.

If it makes an attack it will be attacked and will be hit with far more precision than any of its previous conflicts. America will almost certainly hold back and that means that it will probably be attacked from multiple sides. It may just achieve your dooms day fanatsies. Does it think the risk is worth it ??

I still think that nit imagines that its Zionist backers in America will prevail on the administration. As I said - I think it is wrong. Its playing Mexican standoff and is very likely to loose.

Br Cornelius

[+and-then]

If it makes an attack it will be attacked and will be hit with far more precision than any of its previous conflicts. America will almost certainly hold back and that means that it will probably be attacked from multiple sides. It may just achieve your dooms day fanatsies. Does it think the risk is worth it ??

I still think that nit imagines that its Zionist backers in America will prevail on the administration. As I said - I think it is wrong. Its playing Mexican standoff and is very likely to loose.

Br Cornelius

Well that IS the 64 thousand dollar question. If they feel existentially threatened then they may very well take the plunge - feeling they will lose for certain if they don't. Their intrepidity has been rewarded in the past..... The real question is why the world cannot see the repeating pattern and act in unison to secure them on their tiny piece of land thus ending the threat to humanity? Instead we watch stupidly and cheer for the most volatile actors.... mindless.....

[Guest]

Well that IS the 64 thousand dollar question. If they feel existentially threatened then they may very well take the plunge - feeling they will lose for certain if they don't. Their intrepidity has been rewarded in the past..... The real question is why the world cannot see the repeating pattern and act in unison to secure them on their tiny piece of land thus ending the threat to humanity? Instead we watch stupidly and cheer for the most volatile actors.... mindless.....

Because they have made themselves very unpopular and done nothing to gain friends. The thing is, anyone who has actually met an Israeli citizen will generally tell you they are not that nice so there is little personal empathy with their position.

There are consequences.

Br Cornelius

[+and-then]

Because they have made themselves very unpopular and done nothing to gain friends. The thing is, anyone who has actually met an Israeli citizen will generally tell you they are not that nice so there is little personal empathy with their position.

There are consequences.

Br Cornelius

I'll have to take your word for that as I do not know any Jewish persons. But those consequences you speak of work both ways. Why should they be overly friendly when they grow up challenged for their very survival?

[Guest]

I'll have to take your word for that as I do not know any Jewish persons. But those consequences you speak of work both ways. Why should they be overly friendly when they grow up challenged for their very survival?

There is a big difference between been Jewish and been an Israeli citizen. All the none Israeli Jews I have met have been fine.

If you don't cultivate friends don't be surprised when you end up friendless.

Br Cornelius

[+and-then]

There is a big difference between been Jewish and been an Israeli citizen. All the none Israeli Jews I have met have been fine.

If you don't cultivate friends don't be surprised when you end up friendless.

Br Cornelius

Friendless people still have family. And they have the advantage of being VERY accustomed to rejection and persecution. The fact that people tend to dislike them certainly does not change their destiny. They "triumph" over their enemies and even themselves, eventually - so says the book. I believe the book BTW. It's why I can be so annoying without even trying.

[Guest]

Friendless people still have family. And they have the advantage of being VERY accustomed to rejection and persecution. The fact that people tend to dislike them certainly does not change their destiny. They "triumph" over their enemies and even themselves, eventually - so says the book. I believe the book BTW. It's why I can be so annoying without even trying.

History says otherwise. Only superstition allows you to believe otherwise.

Br Cornelius

[stevewinn]

what is all this talk about Israel as no friends, dont talk rubbish, just because the liberal left are more vocal against Israel and their actions, mainly due to the occupied territories doesn't mean the silent majority are. the vast majority of western people would side with Israel over Iran or any other middle east country. and if it all does 'kick off' and Israel gives Iran a kicking we'll stand on the sidelines and do nothing, use measly words condemning the action but in private patting them on the back. if Iran starts to gain an advantage and its Israel who gets a kicking we'll be in there like a shot.

[Guest]

what is all this talk about Israel as no friends, dont talk rubbish, just because the liberal left are more vocal against Israel and their actions, mainly due to the occupied territories doesn't mean the silent majority are. the vast majority of western people would side with Israel over Iran or any other middle east country. and if it all does 'kick off' and Israel gives Iran a kicking we'll stand on the sidelines and do nothing, use measly words condemning the action but in private patting them on the back. if Iran starts to gain an advantage and its Israel who gets a kicking we'll be in there like a shot.

Going after Iran would be like striking a hornets nest. A bad idea.

A war you could never win which would make it almost impossible to get the precious oil out of the last great world reserve without a huge ongoing ground force to protect your wells and pipelines.

Do you think that Western military strategists do not carefully weigh up the pro an d cons of any military action and make a rational decision based upon that. No sane leader in the west wants to precipitate a world war which would inevitably lead to the use of Nukes. Israel simply isn't worth it in the larger scheme of things.

It is only the disproportionate influence of Zionists in the American and UK governments which means we are having this conversation at all. Its almost enough to make you anti-semitic.

Br Cornelius

Edited August 19, 2012 by Guest

[+and-then]

Going after Iran would be like striking a hornets nest. A bad idea.

Do you think that Western military strategists do not carefully weigh up the pro an d cons of any military action and make a rational decision based upon that. No sane leader in the west wants to precipitate a world war which would inevitably lead to the use of Nukes. Israel simply isn't worth it in the larger scheme of things.

It is only the disproportionate influence of Zionists in the American and UK governments which means we are having this conversation at all.

Br Cornelius

I make no claims of being expert in the field of military exploit but I do believe that the hardware (and software) available to a fighting force make quite a difference to the outcome of conflict. As brave and well trained as the IRGC may be, it is difficult to overcome the technological imbalance. That hornets nest you mention is what's in store for THEM, not us. And there is no way Russia or China go to the wall for Iran. They couldn't even react in time to stop the whipping that would be administered to Iran by forces in the region. The level of tension in the world would go redline but no military action from them.

"History says otherwise. Only superstition allows you to believe otherwise."

What history says otherwise? I'm talking about FUTURE events. My "superstitions" allow for that. And your outlook will never allow you to admit being wrong, EVEN when these things are happening you will deny. Not much pride, eh?