Experiences Change Minds?

[Mr Walker]

Press on an injury and measure the heart rate increase.

That doesnt measure the pain. It measures the perception of pain and the patients response to the perception/feeling of pain. That perception will differ among people, and can be varied by a number of means including faith and training //discipline/ mental control. This is true with all mechanistic forms of measurement, including those measuring brain activity. eg press on the wound of an involuntarily unconscious living patient and you wont get any change/ response at all, which is why anaesthetics work so well.

[Ronseal]

I havent witnessed anything paranormal but a couple in my family have so its hard for me not to believe in something out of this world. But I'm happy to wait till my turn.

[Poindexter]

By Hell there are some Uneducated Fools on this Forum......

And I lodged a Post on Demonology looking for Proper - Sensible Answers...

Might as well have taken my Witchcraft Stix and Pole and pointed it at the Moon

Here are some answers for the "Flat Earth Dipstix' that dwell on this Forum

400+ years ago the Earth was "FLAT" everybody in the World knew it,, some people had been to the End of the Earth and drew pictures of the Ships sailing over the edge and the Demons waiting to Eat the Sailors as they fell off the Ships

Try to refute it You were burned at the Stake as a Heretic

For the Skeptics.. the Sun revolves around the Earth, don't believe it, go out and sit, at 5.00am until about 6.00pm and watch it.. the Sun goes around the Earth

I used to have all the Mathematical and Logical answers,,,, I was wrong...

Skeptics are Fooish, Uneducated, Inane People,, the First to end up in a Mental Hospital looking for Answers to Occurances that do not have Logical "Everday" Outcomes

[Mr Walker]

I certainly suspect that skeptics are far less satisfied and more restless in their existence They dont have an answer for anything, and that makes life more difficult and frustrating.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

A good sign of when to move on is when you get bored or tense. When you try a new sport and it starts getting competitive and you get cross when you lose, then bail out and find something that is fun again.Of course you should be careful with the risks. Jumping off a bridge may be fun on the way down, but water gets terribly hard at terminal velocities.

Ive never been bored in my life beacue there are somany elements in my brain/consciousness, and always so much going on in there, as well as in the world around me, and i am totally uncompetitive; but i agree with this.

I counted up for kids in my class nearly one hundred different sports and activities i have learned and been involved in since childhood. That included making the first skate board in my state (As far as i can ascertain from google) in the early 1960s and learning to skate board, through bare foot water skiing, to snow sking and many forms of shooting.

I used to make my own bows and arrows, crossbows, mortars and rockets, as a child and then teenager. I worked out how to make and modify a variety of explosives including gunpowder, as a child in pre internet days, from extensive reading and encyclopedias.

For me, the fun is in the challenge of learning. I seem to learn quickly but, in part, a skill from one thing like surfing transfers to other sports like ice skating making learning faster.

Making one sort of explosive, and experimenting with it, leads on to other forms and to things like making projectile weapons and rockets or explosive devices, timers etc.. I usually give the sport/ activity up once I've got the hang of it and move onto another. In "old age" my pursuits are more intellectual, but the same principles apply.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Mr Walker

[coldethyl]

By Hell there are some Uneducated Fools on this Forum......

And I lodged a Post on Demonology looking for Proper - Sensible Answers...

Might as well have taken my Witchcraft Stix and Pole and pointed it at the Moon

Here are some answers for the "Flat Earth Dipstix' that dwell on this Forum

400+ years ago the Earth was "FLAT" everybody in the World knew it,, some people had been to the End of the Earth and drew pictures of the Ships sailing over the edge and the Demons waiting to Eat the Sailors as they fell off the Ships

Try to refute it You were burned at the Stake as a Heretic

For the Skeptics.. the Sun revolves around the Earth, don't believe it, go out and sit, at 5.00am until about 6.00pm and watch it.. the Sun goes around the Earth

I used to have all the Mathematical and Logical answers,,,, I was wrong...

Skeptics are Fooish, Uneducated, Inane People,, the First to end up in a Mental Hospital looking for Answers to Occurances that do not have Logical "Everday" Outcomes

Wow. I don't think this was called for.

[Sakari]

By Hell there are some Uneducated Fools on this Forum......

And I lodged a Post on Demonology looking for Proper - Sensible Answers...

Might as well have taken my Witchcraft Stix and Pole and pointed it at the Moon

Here are some answers for the "Flat Earth Dipstix' that dwell on this Forum

400+ years ago the Earth was "FLAT" everybody in the World knew it,, some people had been to the End of the Earth and drew pictures of the Ships sailing over the edge and the Demons waiting to Eat the Sailors as they fell off the Ships

Try to refute it You were burned at the Stake as a Heretic

For the Skeptics.. the Sun revolves around the Earth, don't believe it, go out and sit, at 5.00am until about 6.00pm and watch it.. the Sun goes around the Earth

I used to have all the Mathematical and Logical answers,,,, I was wrong...

Skeptics are Fooish, Uneducated, Inane People,, the First to end up in a Mental Hospital looking for Answers to Occurances that do not have Logical "Everday" Outcomes

Advice....If you are going to call a group of people " fooish ", and " Uneducated ". make sure you spell it correct, and use proper grammar and spelling after calling a group of people " fooish ", and " uneducated ".....

Other wise, your name calling, and lack of spell check will make you look " foolish ". And will show you are the one " uneducated ".

Edited October 5, 2012 by Sakari

[scowl]

That doesnt measure the pain. It measures the perception of pain and the patients response to the perception/feeling of pain. That perception will differ among people, and can be varied by a number of means including faith and training //discipline/ mental control.

With all people, heart rate goes up when experiencing pain and heart rate goes up less when experiencing less pain.

[scowl]

Wow. I don't think this was called for.

Yeah, and pretty much everyone knew that the world was a globe 400 years ago (the flat world belief was something we Americans made up to make Columbus's journey more cool) so I don't know who or what the poster is talking about.

And who are these skeptics ending up in mental hospitals? The most stable people I know are skeptics.

[fullywired]

NAturally. But remember, it is your lack of experiences which forms this opinion in you. If you ever have a genuine paranormal encounter you will have to adjust your belief in either your own nature or in the paranormal. (Or attempt to rationalise away what happened.)

I am quite intelligent, as ascertained in a variety of tests and achievements, educated in logic, philosophy, psychology, and a social scientist's appreciation for the scientific method; and i can assure you that there exist very real and physical manifestions and examples of many forms of paranormal/supernatural "things and events".

They are not created in a person's mind, but are a physical manifestion of the natural order. It wouldnt matter how suggestible you were. You could encounter one as real/physically, as encountering a cat or a dog, because they hold independent existence..

Of course there are also many and common ones caused by mental disorders, suggestion , human's tendency to see patterns where non exist and to create meaning from coincidences. But it is not an either or situation. There are exampes of both.

While you are "encounter free" you are also free to chose belief or disbelief, and it is perhaps more rational to chose disbelief in that situation. A real encounter negates that freedom.

But it is dangerous and illogical just to assume that, being encounter free means no such things exist.

How do you know that any experiences you think you have had are genuine and not some figment of your over active imagination.Remember you claim to have conversed with angels ,who gave you money and warned you of impending dangers,,this is hardly the stuff to inspire confidence in your judgement

fullywired

[Mr Walker]

Wow. I don't think this was called for.

Er! You didnt see the satire /reverse logic applied in the post?

[Mr Walker]

How do you know that any experiences you think you have had are genuine and not some figment of your over active imagination.Remember you claim to have conversed with angels ,who gave you money and warned you of impending dangers,,this is hardly the stuff to inspire confidence in your judgement

fullywired

By the same evidences i know anything is real; witnesses measurable changes in the external shared environment, context, cause and effect, consistency etc. It inspires confidence when you know it as real as the pizza delivery boy.

It doesnt inspire confience in you because you disbeliev the reality of it You dismiss even the possibilty that such things can be real, mundane and relatively common. You say, "I know all this is impossible thus mr walker is deluded" Try saying,"i believe all this is impossible but what if mr walker is not deluded and such things are/can be quite real."

That's more honest and rational because you CAN NOT know such things are impossible, you can only believe them to be so, based on your own experiences and logical extrapolations. You are locking "what has to be real" into what you have experienced or can believe in.

[Mr Walker]

With all people, heart rate goes up when experiencing pain and heart rate goes up less when experiencing less pain.

Untrue. (Mostly becaus it is far too generalised a statement)

Again it is the perceotion of pain (the feeling of the pain) which cause the heart rate to go up. An unconscious anaethetised person does not feel the pain, thus their heart rate is unaltered. it isalso quite possible to contol heart rate and all metabolic functions via your mind. In humans pain is a product of our self aware consciousness as much as our physiology, and how we think about pain can have a very big impact on how we feel pain. Not only do i know this as a fact from personal experiences but it is medically and scientifically recognised as well. And so faith (as i t is a state of mind) can regulate the physical amount of pain a perosn feels. It can also lessen stress, heart rates, breathing and other metabolic indicators. It can modify emotional senses like hate, anger, fear; and the physical manifestations in our body of those emotional states.

A person with faith may not fear at all, and so their body won't indicate any of the physiological components of fear. Same with stress. Both fear and tress increase the degree/amount of pain a person feels from a physical wound or injury. Eliminate or reduce feelings of fear and stress and you eliminate a lot of the pain.

[fullywired]

.

.

That's more honest and rational because you CAN NOT know such things are impossible, you can only believe them to be so, based on your own experiences and logical extrapolations. You are locking "what has to be real" into what you have experienced or can believe in.

By the same token you CAN NOT know such things are possible,you imagine them to be and there is nothing logical in believing in the paranormal etc

fullywired

[Mr Walker]

By the same token you CAN NOT know such things are possible,you imagine them to be and there is nothing logical in believing in the paranormal etc

fullywired

No, you see you are allowing your (dis)belief to stand in the place of reason.

I dont imagine anything. Unless under the influence of a powerful medical narcoticm and then i am hallucinating, and and very well aware of that fact.. ANgels are no more a produc t of my imagination than dogs or cats. Either everything in life is an illusion or nothing is, if you apply the same standards of evidence and the same logic to establishing any reality.

So yes I can KNOW such things are real, to the same extent i can know any thing outside my mind is real. And for the same reasons.

There may be nothing logical in believing in the paranormal. I dont believe in anything. But it is illogical to deny evidenced reality no matter how strange or unbelievable it seems to a person. The paranormal is real Ive been dealing with it all my life and i can verify most of that via indpendent observers and witnesses. .I'd go so far to say that there is nothing paranormal, merely normaities we dont fully understand as yet. Most of the paranormal will be achievable by human science within 200 years includig the dematerialisation and rematerialisation of matter,. the constructionof matter from pure energy via templates and the immortality of the human mind and body and thought transference .

[fullywired]

No, you see you are allowing your (dis)belief to stand in the place of reason.

I dont imagine anything. Unless under the influence of a powerful medical narcoticm and then i am hallucinating, and and very well aware of that fact.. ANgels are no more a produc t of my imagination than dogs or cats. Either everything in life is an illusion or nothing is, if you apply the same standards of evidence and the same logic to establishing any reality.

So yes I can KNOW such things are real, to the same extent i can know any thing outside my mind is real. And for the same reasons.

There may be nothing logical in believing in the paranormal. I dont believe in anything. But it is illogical to deny evidenced reality no matter how strange or unbelievable it seems to a person. The paranormal is real Ive been dealing with it all my life and i can verify most of that via indpendent observers and witnesses. .I'd go so far to say that there is nothing paranormal, merely normaities we dont fully understand as yet. Most of the paranormal will be achievable by human science within 200 years includig the dematerialisation and rematerialisation of matter,. the constructionof matter from pure energy via templates and the immortality of the human mind and body and thought transference .

You know you have missed your way ,you should have been a fiction writer,you have the imagination for it.

bearing in mind that I have always thought you were pulling our chain on here and all you write is fiction

fullywired

[orangepeaceful79]

Have you ever had an experience that changed your mind regarding the paranormal? For instance, did you once believe in ghosts, but an event changed your mind? Or, conversely, did you once not believe, but then have a ghostly experience? I'd love to hear your stories.

I was a believer in all things paranormal until I joined this site, surprisingly. It was only here that I discovered how little evidence I had based all my assumptions on. I've never experienced the paranormal, except through shows like Ghost Hunters, Ghost adventures and the like - all entertainment masquerading as scientific examination. All chock full of confirmation bias and pareidolia. It was only through joining this site and participating in discussions on this subject matter with many of the excellent members here that I came to realize that everything I had believed so fervently in was pretty illogical and easily explained.

I'd still like to be a believer, but I feel that this site has raised my standards considerably. To the point that which if I even had a paranormal experience of my own I would be more apt to question and dismiss it than to change my current viewpoint - unless I was able to colelct some sort of corroborating evidence for it. Without evidence, eyewitness reports are just that - reports of people doing the best they can with their very subjective senses, and retelling the story based on what they think they saw. Its why every good trial lawyer knows its pretty tough to convict on eyewitness testimony alone.

I could be wrong though. Maybe I'll have an experience and it will be so incredible it will change my viewpoint forever. Seems more likely though that since I haven't had a single experience in my 33 year so far that I probably wont in the next 33 years. I'll keep my mind open to the possibility though. No harm in that.

[White Unicorn]

I was a believer in all things paranormal until I joined this site, surprisingly. It was only here that I discovered how little evidence I had based all my assumptions on. I've never experienced the paranormal, except through shows like Ghost Hunters, Ghost adventures and the like - all entertainment masquerading as scientific examination. All chock full of confirmation bias and pareidolia. It was only through joining this site and participating in discussions on this subject matter with many of the excellent members here that I came to realize that everything I had believed so fervently in was pretty illogical and easily explained.

I'd still like to be a believer, but I feel that this site has raised my standards considerably. To the point that which if I even had a paranormal experience of my own I would be more apt to question and dismiss it than to change my current viewpoint - unless I was able to colelct some sort of corroborating evidence for it. Without evidence, eyewitness reports are just that - reports of people doing the best they can with their very subjective senses, and retelling the story based on what they think they saw. Its why every good trial lawyer knows its pretty tough to convict on eyewitness testimony alone.

I could be wrong though. Maybe I'll have an experience and it will be so incredible it will change my viewpoint forever. Seems more likely though that since I haven't had a single experience in my 33 year so far that I probably wont in the next 33 years. I'll keep my mind open to the possibility though. No harm in that.

I am a believer in some things but I like your healthy attitude! Keep an open mind and toss out the explained that's the way to go, too many fakes and gullible listeners accepting on blind faith. If you hear a friend had an experience and you believe him check it out yourself and you might get the experience you haven't come across during your 33 years. You have to be in the right place at the right time. Usually starts as dumb luck but leads to more clues to discover more. It's a mysterious and perplexing adventure after that

[scowl]

Untrue. (Mostly becaus it is far too generalised a statement)

Again it is the perceotion of pain (the feeling of the pain) which cause the heart rate to go up. An unconscious anaethetised person does not feel the pain, thus their heart rate is unaltered.

Yes, anesthesia is an excellent pain killer.

it isalso quite possible to contol heart rate and all metabolic functions via your mind. In humans pain is a product of our self aware consciousness as much as our physiology, and how we think about pain can have a very big impact on how we feel pain.

Studies have shown consistently that higher levels of pain increase heart rate. You can list exceptional cases but they're not statistically significant. The study on acupuncture showed heart rate increases were consistent with perceived pain levels in the specific conditions they studied and it showed that people were not able to decrease their heart rate when they felt their pain levels should have decreased.

[Render]

I certainly suspect that skeptics are far less satisfied and more restless in their existence They dont have an answer for anything, and that makes life more difficult and frustrating.

here you go:

Religious Experiences Shrink Part of Brain

There is evidence that members of religious groups who are persecuted or in the minority might have markedly greater stress and anxiety as they try to navigate their own society. Other times, a person might perceive God to be punishing them and therefore have significant stress in the face of their religious struggle. Others experience religious struggle because of conflicting ideas with their religious tradition or their family. Even very positive, life-changing experiences might be difficult to incorporate into the individual’s prevailing religious belief system and this can also lead to stress and anxiety. Perceived religious transgressions can cause emotional and psychological anguish. This “religious” and “spiritual pain” can be difficult to distinguish from pure physical pain. And all of these phenomena can have potentially negative effects on the brain.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=233847

[Mr Walker]

You know you have missed your way ,you should have been a fiction writer,you have the imagination for it.

bearing in mind that I have always thought you were pulling our chain on here and all you write is fiction

fullywired

It really is just a difference in experiential knolwedge Most people heve some degree of difference in experiential knowledge. We seem to have a great degree I find it hard ot believe any huma can live a few decades without encountering real physical examples of the supernatural/paranormal You find i he reverse impossible I think i have a higherr 'contact rate" of such things than most people.

I remember watching john travolta in "phenomenum" and first thinking , "oh yes at last a film which sees such things as genuine and real" Then they cop out, by giving him a tumour. That had me worried because many of my abilities were very similar ot those he had in the film, but continued scans gave me a clean bill of health.

I was listening to alison dubois on the local radio the other day, explaining how she perceives dead people in different ways. She went on to say that her mother "just knew", clearly and absolutely, when anyone in her family had passed away.

This was the case with my mother from birth. She also knew when one of her children was injured or in danger. One night she woke dad up to tell him my younger brother had fallen off his motor bike and was lying injured somewhere. They got out of bed, into the car, and mum directed dad straight to the accident site, a few blocks away from our home. So maybe it is hereditary.

Ps i do write for pleasure, and in the past i wrote for other people, creating modules of dungeons and dragons. I write book reviews also. But what i write on UM is basically as true as i can present something which is filtered through my own understandings and perceptions. I can give clear physical descriptions of various events, but i can't explain the causation or nature of many of them.

I have a brilliant imagination But it is also a form of logicla and scientific extrapolation I can see something from mentla conception through construction to finidhed reality This is a skill my father, a very talented tradesman in fitting turning boilermaking etc gave to me. He made everything form model powered planes through sailing boats and all sorts of toys for us through to an A frame holiday home which last sold for half a million dollars. I made all sorts of devices a child /teenager, culminating in explosive devices rockets etc.

I wrote stories for my younger siblings starting when i was 4 or five.

I also have an incredible dream life I am not just a lucid dreamer but can control and consciously create whole dream scapes and dream worlds; scenarios characters etc I have created whole worlds in fiction with acurate geographies topograpghies rurla and urban lancsapes and histories cultures and peoples I call on skills from geography history politics sociology and psychology to do this plus a huge amount of read material

BUT there is a distinct difernce between the three worlds i inhabit.

I wrote a major piece at universit yon this and got a distinction for it. The real world, the world of the imagination and the word of dreams are distinct entities A person who occupies all of them fully must have very strong resality checkers and a very strong grounding in reality to be certain which one the y are occupying at any time. My practice in this from a few years old is, in part, how i can know what is from the real world, wha t is from the dreamworld and what exists in the worlds of my imagination. I often deliberately use things from the dream world and the world of my imagiantion for creative purposes especially in playing with, and entertaining, children up into their mid teens.,

[Mr Walker]

here you go:

Religious Experiences Shrink Part of Brain

http://www.unexplain...howtopic=233847

Its best to include the whole post, which presents an entirely different emphases

In this study, Owen et al. used MRI to measure the volume of the hippocampus, a central structure of the limbic system that is involved in emotion as well as in memory formation. They evaluated the MRIs of 268 men and women aged 58 and over, who were originally recruited for the NeuroCognitive Outcomes of Depression in the Elderly study, but who also answered several questions regarding their religious beliefs and affiliation. The study by Owen et al. is unique in that it focuses specifically on religious individuals compared to non-religious individuals. This study also broke down these individuals into those who are born again or who have had life-changing religious experiences.

The results showed significantly greater hippocampal atrophy in individuals reporting a life-changing religious experience. In addition, they found significantly greater hippocampal atrophy among born-again Protestants, Catholics, and those with no religious affiliation, compared with Protestants not identifying as born-again.

The authors offer the hypothesis that the greater hippocampal atrophy in selected religious groups might be related to stress. They argue that some individuals in the religious minority, or those who struggle with their beliefs, experience higher levels of stress. This causes a release of stress hormones that are known to depress the volume of the hippocampus over time. This might also explain the fact that both non-religious as well as some religious individuals have smaller hippocampal volumes.

This is an interesting hypothesis. Many studies have shown positive effects of religion and spirituality on mental health, but there are also plenty of examples of negative impacts. There is evidence that members of religious groups who are persecuted or in the minority might have markedly greater stress and anxiety as they try to navigate their own society. Other times, a person might perceive God to be punishing them and therefore have significant stress in the face of their religious struggle. Others experience religious struggle because of conflicting ideas with their religious tradition or their family. Even very positive, life-changing experiences might be difficult to incorporate into the individual’s prevailing religious belief system and this can also lead to stress and anxiety. Perceived religious transgressions can cause emotional and psychological anguish. This “religious” and “spiritual pain” can be difficult to distinguish from pure physical pain. And all of these phenomena can have potentially negative effects on the brain.

http://www.scientifi...k-part-of-brain

There are many things which could be said about these studies But note the qualifiers bolded

First bolded section. Which is cause and which is effect and why should protestants be immune?

"They offer the hypothesis" and "argue" were not words mentioned in your original quote.

And these individuals came from "some individuals in th e religious minority" or who struggle with their faith and as a consequence may be stressed Yes any minority group, or people suffering internal conflict, may be stressed and have symptoms of tha t stress. Tha tis not the result of their faith or religion but their minority status and their doubts.

You missed the bolded bit on positive effects of religion and spirituality on mental health.

All the final section is true but heavily qualified by specific problems in the individuals concerned. Atheists can and will face identical problems wth families, sexuality, conflicting values and ethics, relationships etc. If they adjust/adapt healthily they will not be affected as much as those who struggle to adjust. But these are not stressors cause d by religion so much as by conflict scenarios arising within a religious framework. As stated, the same stressors and consequent mental issues will arise with atheists. Sometimes in a non religious framework, but perhaps also in a conflict between religious family members and non religious ones.

Finally, the peopl studied were all about 60 or over, and suffering from depression. That is hardly a representative sample. The fact tha they were identified first as being dperessed, is going to severely skew any statistical outcomes compared to, say, a group selected who had never suffered from depression in their life.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Mr Walker

[Vlade1]

I've seen people change their Minds. I suppose at some point I changed my mind... I'm sort of a contradiction I suppose, I believe in some "strange" things and Yet i'm extremely skeptical.