Abortion a lesson ?

[Mr Walker]

Ps reading some posts here, some people have some really weird ideas, which they use to justify actual reality in this life.

To justify the killing of an unborn child because you have a belief that it wil be reincarnated or that souls are immortal or that such a thing as karma exists, should be considered criminally insane (or whatever the gentler, more modern, politically correct, terminology is) Want to kill your unborn? Fair enough but present a damn good RATIONAL and logical reason to do so. Be honest also.

Even the fact that you live in poverty does not mean that your child will, for example. A person/child/unborn has a basic right to life whatever the standards of that life may be. In living it has a chance and a potential which otherwise will be snuffed out. Does anyone seriously argue that we kill the poor to alleviate their suffering in life?

Women have rights because we give them those rights. A child can have exactly the same rights if we chose to give them those rights. Again, the difficulty is in fairly, and successfully, reconciling the rights of an existing mature woman and an embryonic human being. To say the unborn has no rights is illogical and dangerous. It must be given some rights, for the same reasons we confer rights on all human beings.

Just to add. killing a unborn doesnt just kill them. It kills all their future descendants and genetic line/potential also. Back in the eighties we cared for a young man for about 4 years whose mother rejected him In the nineties he came nack with a partner and thre young children and lived with us for another 4 years.His mothers rejection ultimately lead him to suicide aged about 26. But he had 3 beautiful young girls. At present we have two of them 13 and 15 years old, living with us. If his mother had aborted him he might have been spared a fairly hard and miserable (by my standards) existence but his 3 daughters would never have been born. One of them at 18 has just had her first child to a young aboriginal man, and so the cycle goes on. No one woman has a singular right to arbitrarily end such a cycle of life. Although they DO have rights to their own life and biology those rights will be constrained by and balanced against, the rights of their unborn children Some dont like that idea but it will eventually prevail, just as all constructive ethics eventually win out in a civilised society..

Edited October 19, 2012 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

This is the one issue, that because I'm a man, I feel that I should not offer an opinion.

Regarding abortion, the only analogy that comes to mind, is that it's like the seed salesman trying to dictate to the farmer how to grow the crop. All he should do, is offer support, nothing else.

That is, respectfuly, a moral copout. A child is half, genetically, a man's. The woman bears the child for nine months.

The child may live for a century, and the father will always be the fathe rand forever shape the genetic nature of the child.

Every human has the right and responsibility to an opinion on such issues.

WOmen (And indeed all humans ) have the rights they have now because we ALL conferred those rights on them. The only way the unborn can gain rights is by us ALL to confer those rights, and so men, indeed, have as much right and duty to comment on and form the laws, as women do.

[Orcseeker]

I do hope to have another one day in another one day, in hopeful ly will be a far more successful relationship. & I hope it's another little girl. That's right UM. I'm a man that wants nothing but daughters. I just like the idea of Daddy & his girls.

.

After seeing what is happening to today's youth and the huge negative influence that overshadows them is the reason I don't want a girl if I ever have a child.

[meryt-tetisheri]

After seeing what is happening to today's youth and the huge negative influence that overshadows them is the reason I don't want a girl if I ever have a child.

Not all of today's youth fit the stereotype people have, it's usually the 'loud' ones who stick out. Daughters are delightful to have, a life long pleasure

[regeneratia]

I do not believe in souls or "lessons" that are meant to be learned. It is only hubris and human folly that lead us to believe in some higher cosmic order that bends the universe to serve our individual--or even collective--needs. What people take from any experience is subjective and determined entirely by them.

Your afterlife is going to be very interesting.

I've read that in one of Michael Newton's books

I have read and own three of them.

[regeneratia]

After seeing what is happening to today's youth and the huge negative influence that overshadows them is the reason I don't want a girl if I ever have a child.

Our youth are just fine. It is US adults we need most to work on.

[regeneratia]

Article: http://www.livescience.com/24127-fact-check-walsh-pregnancy-can-kill.html

Fact Check: Yes, Pregnancy Can Kill

Stephanie Pappas, LiveScience Senior Writer

Date: 19 October 2012 Time: 12:50 PM ET

[Beckys_Mom]

After seeing what is happening to today's youth and the huge negative influence that overshadows them is the reason I don't want a girl if I ever have a child.

God help the child if you ever do father one.. If it is a girl she will be unwanted and unloved by the sounds of it... I guess you wouldn't feel confident in raising the little one up the right way..You are best staying away from parenting if you think like this

Edited October 20, 2012 by Beckys_Mom

[Blood_Sacrifice]

Morally I am against abortion (baring a few circumstance). But legally, I support the woman's choice in all cases. Does that make me pro-life or pro-choice?

[regeneratia]

Ps reading some posts here, some people have some really weird ideas, which they use to justify actual reality in this life.

To justify the killing of an unborn child because you have a belief that it wil be reincarnated or that souls are immortal or that such a thing as karma exists, should be considered criminally insane (or whatever the gentler, more modern, politically correct, terminology is) Want to kill your unborn? Fair enough but present a damn good RATIONAL and logical reason to do so. Be honest also.

Even the fact that you live in poverty does not mean that your child will, for example. A person/child/unborn has a basic right to life whatever the standards of that life may be. In living it has a chance and a potential which otherwise will be snuffed out. Does anyone seriously argue that we kill the poor to alleviate their suffering in life?

Women have rights because we give them those rights. A child can have exactly the same rights if we chose to give them those rights. Again, the difficulty is in fairly, and successfully, reconciling the rights of an existing mature woman and an embryonic human being. To say the unborn has no rights is illogical and dangerous. It must be given some rights, for the same reasons we confer rights on all human beings.

Just to add. killing a unborn doesnt just kill them. It kills all their future descendants and genetic line/potential also. Back in the eighties we cared for a young man for about 4 years whose mother rejected him In the nineties he came nack with a partner and thre young children and lived with us for another 4 years.His mothers rejection ultimately lead him to suicide aged about 26. But he had 3 beautiful young girls. At present we have two of them 13 and 15 years old, living with us. If his mother had aborted him he might have been spared a fairly hard and miserable (by my standards) existence but his 3 daughters would never have been born. One of them at 18 has just had her first child to a young aboriginal man, and so the cycle goes on. No one woman has a singular right to arbitrarily end such a cycle of life. Although they DO have rights to their own life and biology those rights will be constrained by and balanced against, the rights of their unborn children Some dont like that idea but it will eventually prevail, just as all constructive ethics eventually win out in a civilised society..

An unborn what? Be clear and concise.

[regeneratia]

That is, respectfuly, a moral copout. A child is half, genetically, a man's. The woman bears the child for nine months.

The child may live for a century, and the father will always be the fathe rand forever shape the genetic nature of the child.

Every human has the right and responsibility to an opinion on such issues.

WOmen (And indeed all humans ) have the rights they have now because we ALL conferred those rights on them. The only way the unborn can gain rights is by us ALL to confer those rights, and so men, indeed, have as much right and duty to comment on and form the laws, as women do.

Who is "we all"? Again, an unborn what?

Edited October 20, 2012 by regeneratia

[regeneratia]

Morally I am against abortion (baring a few circumstance). But legally, I support the woman's choice in all cases. Does that make me pro-life or pro-choice?

It makes you a thoughtful and reasonable human being, IMHO.

[Blood_Sacrifice]

It makes you a thoughtful and reasonable human being, IMHO.

Thanks

My (incoherent) views in a nutshell:

This might look like an extremely crude and selfish view - but we do kill life of lesser beings* all the time to sustain ourselves or for greater good. We kill to eat, or indirectly through deforestation and destruction of natural habitats, we pull the plug from brain-dead patients to use the same resource on someone more capable etc. As cold and inhuman as it may sound, a feutus is like a parasite. The feutus may or may not become an independent life. It can't work independently. It may or may not become a life.

I support the woman's right to abortion in nearly all cases because I don't believe we an exert our own sense of moral on someone else. The issue of defining life and who gets the right is difficult. Does potential life count as life? Do we put more value in a life that is already living or one that is potential?

Having said that I can't imagine the thought of abortion. It's just so ugly. Baring very rare cases I don't condone it. I also believe selected abortion (gender-based abortion, abortion based on genetic deformities) can have long term implications, some of which is not so positive.

It's a very controversial subject to be honest. I can only hope I don't have to deal with such issues first hand. I am sorry if I ended up offending some here. I know it's a topic that is difficult to be argued without getting emotional.

*based on human perception.

[Blood_Sacrifice]

Also to those who consider abortion equivalent to murder - what legal punishment would you prescribe to someone who had aborted her fetus? Does the same punishment for murder gets applied to them as that is the crime you are charging her with? Does the same punishment apply to people like her doctor and the people who were part of the process?

Edit - abortion is one debate that can completely be done without bringing mentions of any holy books or what our ancestors thought once upon a time.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Blood_Sacrifice

[regeneratia]

I believe that the culprits also include the medical community. Look at what is going on now regarding meningitis, the anti-psychotics that are killing our elderly and so much more.

I think we really need to rise above the physical and realize that the eternal part of us in the area with which we should be most concerned.

Should potential death be considered death itself?

Thanks

My (incoherent) views in a nutshell:

This might look like an extremely crude and selfish view - but we do kill life of lesser beings* all the time to sustain ourselves or for greater good. We kill to eat, or indirectly through deforestation and destruction of natural habitats, we pull the plug from brain-dead patients to use the same resource on someone more capable etc. As cold and inhuman as it may sound, a feutus is like a parasite. The feutus may or may not become an independent life. It can't work independently. It may or may not become a life.

I support the woman's right to abortion in nearly all cases because I don't believe we an exert our own sense of moral on someone else. The issue of defining life and who gets the right is difficult. Does potential life count as life? Do we put more value in a life that is already living or one that is potential?

Having said that I can't imagine the thought of abortion. It's just so ugly. Baring very rare cases I don't condone it. I also believe selected abortion (gender-based abortion, abortion based on genetic deformities) can have long term implications, some of which is not so positive.

It's a very controversial subject to be honest. I can only hope I don't have to deal with such issues first hand. I am sorry if I ended up offending some here. I know it's a topic that is difficult to be argued without getting emotional.

*based on human perception.

Edited October 20, 2012 by regeneratia

[Orcseeker]

Not all of today's youth fit the stereotype people have, it's usually the 'loud' ones who stick out. Daughters are delightful to have, a life long pleasure

Every time I jump on the internet my faith in humanity dies a little. The young, impressionable minds of today are conditioned by the abysmal music of today among many other things that make this society over sexualised. As a result, teen pregnancies have sky rocketed. I have witnessed first hand generation Y. It is nothing to look forward to. Trust me. If anything it is a giant step back.

[Orcseeker]

Our youth are just fine. It is US adults we need most to work on.

I would beg to differ in some cases. Most children turn to rebellious behaviour due to poor interaction with their parents. Most of the cases are because the parents are too busy working. Most of the time they have no choice in the matter. I think this is a problem in which everyone is involved and that governments are the core of the problem. From the education system allowing a divide between the rich and the poor and in turn slowly eliminating the middle class.

[Orcseeker]

God help the child if you ever do father one.. If it is a girl she will be unwanted and unloved by the sounds of it... I guess you wouldn't feel confident in raising the little one up the right way..You are best staying away from parenting if you think like this

No, not at all. In the posts I have made previously I have outlined such reasons as to why. I would not love my son any more than my daughter. Just due to the problems of today that I hate more than anything is the reason why. I think I would probably be better at raising a boy to deal with those things than a girl at the moment.

[Likely Guy]

That is, respectfuly, a moral copout. A child is half, genetically, a man's. The woman bears the child for nine months.

The child may live for a century, and the father will always be the fathe rand forever shape the genetic nature of the child.

Every human has the right and responsibility to an opinion on such issues.

WOmen (And indeed all humans ) have the rights they have now because we ALL conferred those rights on them. The only way the unborn can gain rights is by us ALL to confer those rights, and so men, indeed, have as much right and duty to comment on and form the laws, as women do.

Yes, of course, genetically a child is half the man's and woman's. I never said that once conception takes place the man's responsibilities are over with!

You said,"The child may live for a century, and the father will always be the fathe rand forever shape the genetic nature of the child." Um, no. Once conception has taken place, any 'genetic shaping' is over with.

As far as me voting against the right of any woman to do with her body as she pleases, again 'no'. I don't believe I have that 'right', or 'responsibility'. In such a case as voting in a referendum regarding this issue, I would support any woman to have the 'right' to decide. That, is the only 'responsibilty' I have.

Edited October 21, 2012 by Likely Guy

[meryt-tetisheri]

Every time I jump on the internet my faith in humanity dies a little. The young, impressionable minds of today are conditioned by the abysmal music of today among many other things that make this society over sexualised. As a result, teen pregnancies have sky rocketed. I have witnessed first hand generation Y. It is nothing to look forward to. Trust me. If anything it is a giant step back.

I do not believe that the minds of our children are more impressionable or easier to condition than our minds when we were their age. The internet clips & news are mainly fueled by "attention seekers", and they do not represent everyone. A lot depends on the education the parents give to their children to prepare them to make correct & healthy choices and decisions. For daughter and son, within the framework of this thread, respect for self and others is the only protection against over-sexualization, and in that there should be no difference between a son or a daughter. I have both a son and a daughter, and I wouldn't dream of differentiating between them in terms of responsibility, morality or that one because of gender is more liable to be victimized. Daughters are a blessing and a pleasure, not an extra burden. Don't let a few internet clips scare you away, you are missing out on what could be the best thing in your life.

[Orcseeker]

I do not believe that the minds of our children are more impressionable or easier to condition than our minds when we were their age. The internet clips & news are mainly fueled by "attention seekers", and they do not represent everyone. A lot depends on the education the parents give to their children to prepare them to make correct & healthy choices and decisions. For daughter and son, within the framework of this thread, respect for self and others is the only protection against over-sexualization, and in that there should be no difference between a son or a daughter. I have both a son and a daughter, and I wouldn't dream of differentiating between them in terms of responsibility, morality or that one because of gender is more liable to be victimized. Daughters are a blessing and a pleasure, not an extra burden. Don't let a few internet clips scare you away, you are missing out on what could be the best thing in your life.

I definitely agree with you there. But if I have to keep my family afloat by working a lot, that results in daddy issues. I have seen first hand the affects this has. A girl would throw her self respect away due to her desperation for male attention and in turn destroy herself in the process. Most fathers who experience this try to shower their daughters in gifts. Something else that just makes things worse.

I am not anywhere near to having children at this moment, neither am I considering it anytime soon.

[Cybele]

Your afterlife is going to be very interesting.

This statement might mean something to me if I believed in an afterlife. One doesn't need concepts of divinity or an afterlife to adhere to human moral conventions.

Edited October 21, 2012 by Cybele

[Cybele]

But the rights of an existing adult woman also have to be considered. Abortions should be legal and free, but people should be educated to understand that a n unborn does have rights, and those rights must be logically and reasonably weighed against the rights of its mother.

When we think of moral issues surrounding abortion, we often envision it as involving adult women who are capable of making mature and well-informed decisions. For me, this raises an interesting question of what should be morally appropriate in the case of mentally ill or intellectually disabled pregnant women, who are either incapable or have limited capacity to make informed decisions. Similarly, I think this could apply to very young mothers in their early teens, who may lack emotional maturity and a strong sense of responsibility.

[libstaK]

In terms of "Karmic" concepts such as abortions being a "lesson" for anyone. Let's be clear, Karma is a first person phenomena - it only applies to oneself, the world and all it's people and actions are actually perfectly tuned and in terms of Karma "innocent" from the perspective of the individual who wishes to "do unto others as they would have done to themselves" to paraphrase and borrow a biblical approach to the issue.

When it comes to abortion, yes everyone learns something from the experience or their exposure to it but does that condone or justify the act?.

By the same token, the act is not subject to condemnation by any observer either - we simply are not equipped to know what is a correct choice in another's life experience.

We are each entitled to our position on it but we can never know the reasons others feel they have no choice but to abort their child - Biff's example is a good one.

Then also, there would be many types of examples which on the surface seem selfish but which on balance, in that person's life, seem the only viable option for them - who are we to judge if we haven't walked in their shoes?

But as to the OP's premise that the foetus could have something to learn from the experience? I just don't know what to do with a such a notion tbh - does it really warrant thought on anyone's part at all that such could be the case? What would be gained by postulating it?

[Mr Walker]

An unborn what? Be clear and concise.

An unborn human being.

From the time of conception a new human life, with its own gentetic structure and potential is created.iit goes through many physical stages and many names, embryo fetus etc.

But it is an unborn human being. Some peole like to cal them babies for emotive shock value others like to call them a fetus to reduce them to a thing, as if that somehow makes it ok to kill them. A viable human fetus wil develop into an individual human being, living separate from its mother after only 9 months. It may live as an individual humna for a hundred years. The idea that one human (the mother ) has an unfettered individual righ to kill the unborn human within her at a whim and prevent that long life is Illogical and unethical. Woman, like all of us, have have rights confered on us by our societies, but in the case of pregnancy those rights become circumscribed by the biological fact of pregnancy. Women have been and will continue to be sued and legally held responsible for harm done to a baby once that baby is born alve.

While unborn ,the baby has fewer (almost minimal) legal rights but, once alive, its rights extend back to its period in the womb and a doctor or a mother can be held accountable for damage done to it before its birth. Thus, it is inconsistent to give a mother the right to kill an unborn, but hold her responsible for damage deliberately done to an unborn, once the child is born.

This is an issue in which the use of language is critical but it is no more correct to call an unborn a fetus than a baby or an unborn human being if the reason in doing so is to alter the emotionall respsone of an audience. This is an issue which must be discussed and decided using logic not emotion.