Why do you believe in UFO's and aliens?

[TheMacGuffin]

so, since you didn't resppond to my other post, i'll ask you directly, were there any other witnesses to the 'non-disk' / 'wing' object which arnold had described?

You mean the old prospector who saw them too? I think I read that in the records somewhere.

Fred Johnson, resident of First Avenue, Portland (Oregon), reported without consulting any records that on June 24, 1947, while prospecting at a point in the Cascade Mountains approximately five thousand feet from sea level, during the afternoon he noticed a reflection, looked up, and saw a disc proceeding in a southeasterly direction. Immediately upon sighting this object he placed his telescope to his eye and observed the disc for approximately forty-five to sixty seconds. He remarked that it is possible for him to pick up an object at a distance of ten miles with his telescope.

At the time the disc was sighted by Johnson it was banking in the sun, and he observed five or six similar objects but only concentrated on one. He related that they did not fly in any particular formation and that he would estimate their height to be about one thousand feet from where he was standing. He said the object was about thirty feet in diameter and appeared to have a tail. It made no noise. According to Johnson he remained in the vicinity of the Cascades for several days and then returned to Portland and noted an article in the local paper which stated in effect that a man in Boise, Idaho, had sighted a similar object but that authorities had disclaimed any knowledge of such an object.

He said he communicated with the Army for the sole purpose of attempting to add credence to the story furnished by the man in Boise. Johnson also related that on the occasion of his sighting the objects on June 24, 1947 he had in his possession a combination compass and watch. He noted particularly that immediately before he sighted the disc the compass acted very peculiar, the hand waving from one side to the other, but that this condition corrected itself immediately after the discs had passed out of sight. Informant appeared to be a very reliable individual who advised that he had been a prospector in the states of Montana, Washington and Oregon for the past forty years.

http://brumac.8k.com/KARNOLD/KARNOLD.html

Edited October 23, 2012 by TheMacGuffin

[psyche101]

At any rate, the first jet-powered Flying Wing was tested in October 1947 so it could not have been what Arnold saw in June.

Secretary of the Air Force Stuart Symington ordered the cancellation of all flying wing programs in 1950, and refused to make even one of them available to the Smithsonian museum.

In many ways it was a very impressive aircraft for its time, but the whole program seems to have been dogged by accidents and mishaps, and some people even suspected sabotage.

You will be pleased to hear: (From WIkipedia)

The N-1M proved to be basically sound, paving the way for Northrop's later and much larger Flying Wing aircraft. The pioneering aircraft was then donated to the United States Army Air Forces in 1945 and was placed in the storage collection of the National Air Museum the following year. It sat there for nearly three decades but was finally brought back to static, non-flying status, in its final flight configuration, after several years of painstaking restoration during the 1980s; the N-1M is now on public display at the National Air and Space Museum's Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center.

[TheMacGuffin]

This is what Bruce Maccabee said of Fred Johnson's written report:

"Mr. Johnson's letter to the Air Force indicates that he was in the right area at the right

time to see the objects which Arnold reported. Johnson, like Arnold, reported that his

attention was attracted to them by a reflection, possibly a flash of light on the rocks he was

examining. He reported only five or six, but it is likely that he missed seeing the others as

he concentrated on his telescopic view of a single one. (Also, he was recalling the event

almost two months after it occurred, so he may well have forgotten some details, such as the

exact number of objects.) He thought they were only about 1,000 ft above his altitude of about

5,000 ft.

Adding his estimated distance of the objects above him, 1,000 ft, to his estimated

altitude, 5,000 ft, yields an altitude for the UFOs, about 6,000 ft, which is consistent with

the altitude indicated by Arnold's claim that they were traveling "in and out" of the mountain

peaks south of Mt. Rainier. On the other hand, Arnold also said that, from his point of view,

the objects seemed to be climbing as they passed Mt. Adams. He thought that they might even

have been a bit higher than Mt. Adams which is about 12,000 ft high.

Johnson claimed that he watched one disc for 45 to 60 seconds. Assuming that they were

traveling at the speed calculated previously, about 1,700 mph, in 45 seconds they would travel

about 20 miles. Although it may have been possible that Johnson could see the objects over a

distance of 20 miles from his location, it seems more likely that he saw them for less time.

However, even if it were only for 30 seconds with his telescope, we may assume that he was able

to discern many details that Arnold couldn't see, such as the point on the front and the "tail"

waving side to side "like a big magenet" in the rear. (Here I presume Johnson is comparing it

with the magnetic needle in a compass which swings left and right before reaching equilibrium.)

He claimed that the objects were "round" and also "oval," thus generally agreeing with Arnold's

description of nearly round objects (certainly they they weren't square or triangular or T

shaped) and he estimated that they were 30 ft in diameter, a value that is smaller than Arnold's

estimate and smaller than the previously calculated value, suggesting that Johnson

underestimated the size. (If he underestimated the distance above him he could also be likely

to underestimate the size, since the size estimate is based on the angular size - the visually

"apparent" size - and the estimated distance.) He also stated that the speed was "greater than

anything I ever saw", which is consistent with the speed calculated from Arnold's sighting. He

heard no noise. He observed that while the objects were in sight the needle of his compass

waved from side to side. The waving stopped after the objects were out of sight.

The last statement in Johnson's letter provides important confirmation of Arnold's claim

that he was able to see flashes of sunlight reflected from the objects. In the previous

discussion of Arnold's sighting I pointed out that for the objects to reflect sun toward Arnold

it would be necessary for some portion of each shiny object to tilt at least to an angle of

about 60 degrees. The idea that the objects could tilt that much is supported by Johnson's

claim that when he last saw the objects they were "standing on edge" while "banking in a

cloud."

Aside from the apparent confirmation of Arnold's sighting, Johnson's sighting is unique as

being the first to include a report of a physical effect during sighting (the apparent effect on

the needle of his compass). This observation has led to calculations of the assumed magnetic

field strength needed to affect a compass in this way from a distance of 1,000 ft or more.

The resulting field strengths are immense."

Edited October 23, 2012 by TheMacGuffin

[TheMacGuffin]

I knew that I had read that quite a while ago, about how a witness on the ground also reported Arnold's UFOs to the military and FBI, but I never doubted that Arnold was a very reliable witness and basically telling the truth about what he saw.

Arnold also became the first civilian UFO investigator, since he started going around and collecting other reports in 1947, including from airline pilots.

Edited October 23, 2012 by TheMacGuffin

[TheMacGuffin]

You will be pleased to hear: (From WIkipedia)

The N-1M proved to be basically sound, paving the way for Northrop's later and much larger Flying Wing aircraft. The pioneering aircraft was then donated to the United States Army Air Forces in 1945 and was placed in the storage collection of the National Air Museum the following year. It sat there for nearly three decades but was finally brought back to static, non-flying status, in its final flight configuration, after several years of painstaking restoration during the 1980s; the N-1M is now on public display at the National Air and Space Museum's Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center.

That's good. I'm glad that they at least saved something. From what I've read, politics killed the flying wing at the time, even before they had the chance to work all the bugs out of it.

[psyche101]

The reason they were grounded, just to address this point for now (I may get back to the more philosophical questions when I've got time) was because the original propeller engines were unsatisfactory. Therefore Northrop would, I'd have thought, have been very unlikely to decide to get together enough engines (each of them needing four engines) just to make them airworthy so they could, for some reason, fly them secretly and never tell anyone. That would be the kind of budget wasting excercise that, oh, only Government departments could think about. And why would they want to do that, if the design as it was had already proven to be unsatisfactory? It makes no sense at all, and until nine other suitable candidates can be found, then I think that we can rule the YB-35, at any rate, out as a candidate. And remember the size of these things; 172 ft wingspan. Can you imagine what nine of those would look like in formation? I'm sure someone other than Kenneth Arnold would've noticed that. And i'm pretty sure that, as a pilot, even a private one, Arnold would follow developments in aviation technology, and it wasn't as if the YB-35 was exactly secret; this was long before Area 51, so I dare say that he'd recognise a YB-35 for what it was if he saw one.

So if the YB 35's did go up, and failed, would it not be prudent to keep the failure from the public? At a time when structures were being pulled down for more iron for the war effort, why would the defence forces proudly announce failures? Perhaps this was how the differing designs were tested for all we know. What we do know is that we have something that looks exactly like that which Kenneth Arnold drew. How is that explained? And why would he then write to the defence department with his fears of a terrestrial nature?

Why does it have to be the YB 35?

[psyche101]

Anyway, what are these wild speculations to which you infer?

You joker you.

[TheMacGuffin]

This was the original Arnold drawing, which made them look flatter and more disc-like:

Or perhaps even like this:

Edited October 23, 2012 by TheMacGuffin

[TheMacGuffin]

Or this?

[TheMacGuffin]

Some people have pointed out similarities to other unconventional German designs, but I do not know if these were flying around in the US in 1947, or indeed if they were flying anywhere. Did they ever exist, except on paper?

[TheMacGuffin]

Arnold in fact spent decades investigating hundreds of UFO sightings, and had some unusual stories to tell, such as that Marine transport plane he was searching for on the day he saw his UFOS.

“The Marine Corps transport plane’s wreckage that Arnold was searching for the day he saw the nine saucers supposedly had thirty-two Marines aboard, but the head of the three-man search team that climbed up to the crash site on the side of Mount Rainier told Arnold that they found no bodies, no bones, no blood although the fuselage was fairly intact. Everything else, including the luggage of the thirty-two Marines was still on board. Arnold said the Navy first claimed mountain lions dragged the bodies off and later stated that the bodies were never brought down because the wreck occurred in a very inaccessible place."

http://www.mufon.com/bob_pratt/kenarn.html

He believed that the UFOs were kidnapping people, as well as shooting down planes, and that it happened far more than the military dared to admit. From what I've read, Arnold thought that the UFOs were ET and not friendly.

[Space Commander Travis]

I do admire the tenacity of those who cling so doggedly to the "it was the northrop/Horten Flying Wings, that's what it was" theory, but I'm afraid in the face of all the facts and common sense, the case is pretty well untenable, but credit to the people who do for persistence, at least, I suppose. The case seems to be base entirely on this argument

What we do know is that we have something that looks exactly like that which Kenneth Arnold drew. How is that explained? And why would he then write to the defence department with his fears of a terrestrial nature?

which is really no different at all from "it was clearly a metallic object that did manuevers that we could not possibly do, so there it must be an alien spacecraft", really.

[TheMacGuffin]

According to Arnold, the funeral they held for the Marines had 32 coffins with no bodies in them. He had collected a number of strange stories like that over the decades.

[Space Commander Travis]

This was the original Arnold drawing, which made them look flatter and more disc-like:

Or perhaps even like this:

Indeed, that makes the "Secret Aircraft" theory on even shakier ground, doesn't it.

**

Has anyone considered that the person who drew the famous artist's impression that Arnold is depicted holding might have drawn it, consciously or subconsciously, with some detail added to look like what they thought an advanced aircraft would look like? ... i.e. that the artist may have been influenced by the Flying Wings himself, and Arnold's description have been elaborated slightly?

[synchronomy]

Do not countries that are claiming to be open and honest about the UFO phenomena falsify this though? Brazil for instance claims it has opened it's files.

Examples:

France opens up its UFO files

France became the first country to open its files on UFOs on Thursday when the national space agency unveiled a website documenting more than 1600 sightings spanning five decades.

LINK

Brazilian Air Force Opens Its UFO Files

In accordance with the important of campaign UFO: Freedom of Information Now and publisher of Magazine UFO J. Gevaerd, the representatives of the Aeronautics had been serious, transparent and considerate how much to the claims of the ufologists. "This was a first contact with the officers, new chances will appear and who knows in a next future will be able to establish partnerships to organize research related to Phenomenon UFO.

LINK

And then we have the Disclosure project assuring us that disclosure is just around the corner.

UFO FILES - COUNTRIES RELEASING

LINK

Canada and Britain have released files too. Since I'm in Canada, I went through the details at some length, and it was fruitless. It was mainly copies of reports by various police agencies and others giving the original documents relating to the sightings. Very little conclusive evidence. I went through some of the British ones too, since I am originally from there, and I found the same things.

There was no evidence that I could see of any on-going research into the phenomenon.

If they have a cloaking ability, then why would some people see them and never someone with telescope pointed out of the system? Does not the frequency of alleged sightings not make it likely that if such technology was deployed that it would not be constant? And then we have to ask, how many of these alleged aliens are supposedly here? Some claim up to 57 species visiting, and they all have the same tech? Except us?

And what about ones that do show up on RADAR? How come they are never ever tracked leaving or entering the planet? Why is every single incident on our soil, and not in the skies?

It strikes me that as every single UFO answer to date has come from beneath out feet, that the trend is likely to continue?

I can't speculate on the how's of why's of "cloaking". It's speculation on my part...just a possible scenario. Perhaps they only become visible under certain conditions, which the ET's can't control. Maybe at high speed in space they are completely invisible, then slowed down in our atmosphere we see them intermittently. Just speculation.

You mention 57 species. I believe that comes from one of the Disclosure Project witnesses, Clifford Stone. I believe many of the DP witnesses, but although I believe Stone has some knowledge of ET's, I think he has embellished it dramatically.

Here's his website. His descriptions of the various races sounds very Sheldan Nidle "ish" to me. Just my opinion on him.

http://www.bibliotec...autor_stone.htm

How could an advanced species think the US is the one who calls the shots for the entire planet? To be fair, this does not sound like an advanced species, but rather the opposite? It seems rather strange that an advanced species would be controlled by a lesser species?

And what about Rebel aliens? None want to make contact and see for themselves? I would bet a human would?

Who knows. Perhaps the US does have a crashed vehicle and they have a couple of recovered bodies. Maybe somehow that gave them a bargaining chip with the ET's. Maybe those ET's are in some way "in charge" of all the visiting species in some sort of "galactic federation".

Maybe the US recognized the global interest in the ETH long ago, and decided to take the lead and portray a false image that they are somehow calling the shots for the entire planet. That wouldn't surprise me, as the Wikileaks released documents clearly showed there are few nations that the US doesn't take an interest in.

That is the thing. Governments hate each other, I do not understand where any illusions of them "working together" exist. It's the US ETH and the rest of the world ETH. The Twain never meets. Like I said, the entire UN cannot even keep the Sea Shepard out of the water, I do not see any collusion existing currently even to benefit ourselves?

There is probably only an appearance of collusion. If all nations have a similar agenda relating to the ETH, then it would give the illusion that they are working together.

What I cannot figure out is why would say China for example not tell the World that the US is receiving interstellar visitors? What reason could they have to keep quiet? This is what happened every time a Government did not play by the rules, as per the examples set out in the previous post. It is not an illusion of conspiracy between the US and China, and I do not think anyone has suggested that, but for the ETH to be at all possible, this must be so, and not illusion, but real collusion. But how so? The world does not work like that, and never has?

Cheers.

Since all nations want everyone else to believe that they have something up their sleeve regarding ET's they all stay quiet. The less said, the more people will speculate. Also, perhaps a bit of diplomacy. If China announces, "the US government is engaged in contact with ET's", a few things may happen...probably many.

- the US discredits the statement because China can't prove it

- China, by making the claim, gives the appearance that they do not have any ongoing contact

- China loses credibility because many people worldwide believe the ETH is all smoke and mirrors

So, unless China can prove their statement beyond any shadow of doubt, all that would happen is that they would look silly to the rest of the World

First they would have to prove ET's are visiting, then they would have to prove ongoing contact with the USA, which would have to involve some high level spying going on.

Seem it's a lot easier for all if they keep their mouths shut...which adds to the speculation of collusion between nations.

Edited October 23, 2012 by synchronomy

[mcrom901]

You mean the old prospector who saw them too?

saw them? you mean the 'objects'?

i was specifically referring to the 'winged' object...

I think I read that in the records somewhere.

Fred Johnson, resident of First Avenue, Portland (Oregon), reported without consulting any records that on June 24, 1947, while prospecting at a point in the Cascade Mountains approximately five thousand feet from sea level, during the afternoon he noticed a reflection, looked up, and saw a disc proceeding in a southeasterly direction. Immediately upon sighting this object he placed his telescope to his eye and observed the disc for approximately forty-five to sixty seconds. He remarked that it is possible for him to pick up an object at a distance of ten miles with his telescope.

At the time the disc was sighted by Johnson it was banking in the sun, and he observed five or six similar objects but only concentrated on one. He related that they did not fly in any particular formation and that he would estimate their height to be about one thousand feet from where he was standing. He said the object was about thirty feet in diameter and appeared to have a tail. It made no noise. According to Johnson he remained in the vicinity of the Cascades for several days and then returned to Portland and noted an article in the local paper which stated in effect that a man in Boise, Idaho, had sighted a similar object but that authorities had disclaimed any knowledge of such an object.

He said he communicated with the Army for the sole purpose of attempting to add credence to the story furnished by the man in Boise. Johnson also related that on the occasion of his sighting the objects on June 24, 1947 he had in his possession a combination compass and watch. He noted particularly that immediately before he sighted the disc the compass acted very peculiar, the hand waving from one side to the other, but that this condition corrected itself immediately after the discs had passed out of sight. Informant appeared to be a very reliable individual who advised that he had been a prospector in the states of Montana, Washington and Oregon for the past forty years.

http://brumac.8k.com...LD/KARNOLD.html

nothing about the shape which arnold had mentioned seeing...

[mcrom901]

"He claimed that the objects were "round" and also "oval," thus generally agreeing with Arnold's

description of nearly round objects (certainly they they weren't square or triangular or T

shaped)"

i don't suppose that agrees with arnold's description....

Edited October 23, 2012 by mcrom901

[mcrom901]

This was the original Arnold drawing, which made them look flatter and more disc-like:

and what translates those objects to 'mechanical flying thingys'?

how were uaps ruled out?

Or perhaps even like this:

sorry, but you cannot jump from flashing / shiny disk like objects to imagined crafts like those... nops

Edited October 23, 2012 by mcrom901

[Bw1234]

"Why do you believe in UFO's and aliens?"

Because we can't be the only place in the universe with life on it.

What we be the point of there being billions of galaxies and planets of there was only 1 which had life on it?

For that reason there has to be some sort of ET life.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Bw1234

[synchronomy]

"Why do you believe in UFO's and aliens?"

Because we can't be the only place in the universe with life on it.

What we be the point of there being billions of galaxies and planets of there was only 1 which had life on it?

For that reason there has to be some sort of ET life.

I agree.

One thing the natural world is not, is wasteful. Miriads of species have filled near every nook and cranny of our planet. I believe it's fair to assume that can be extrapolated to apply to the Universe as a whole.

I would find it more of a "shock" if we somehow determined that the only life in the Universe is here on Earth, than if we found we are part of a Universe teeming with life.

[TheMacGuffin]

and what translates those objects to 'mechanical flying thingys'?

how were uaps ruled out?

sorry, but you cannot jump from flashing / shiny disk like objects to imagined crafts like those... nops

Now you see why I usually don't answer mcrom, because he's basically one of the UM jokers. Yesterday, though, he seemed pretty insistent that I answer him so I did, but I knew he was just trying to be funny--as usual.

[Bw1234]

I agree.

One thing the natural world is not, is wasteful. Miriads of species have filled near every nook and cranny of our planet. I believe it's fair to assume that can be extrapolated to apply to the Universe as a whole.

I would find it more of a "shock" if we somehow determined that the only life in the Universe is here on Earth, than if we found we are part of a Universe teeming with life.

It would definitely be more of a shock of we were to find out there is nothing else here.

Unfortunately, we will never be able to go the further reaches of the universe because we simply don't have the technology to do it and will not in our lifetimes. We can look at stars and galaxies that are thousands of light years away but can't see if anything is there. There has to be something else out there though.

[mcrom901]

Now you see why I usually don't answer mcrom, because he's basically one of the UM jokers. Yesterday, though, he seemed pretty insistent that I answer him so I did, but I knew he was just trying to be funny--as usual.

i'm afraid that you not having an answer doesn't mean that the joke isn't on you in this case...

[mcrom901]

Has anyone considered that the person who drew the famous artist's impression that Arnold is depicted holding might have drawn it, consciously or subconsciously, with some detail added to look like what they thought an advanced aircraft would look like? ... i.e. that the artist may have been influenced by the Flying Wings himself, and Arnold's description have been elaborated slightly?

mcguf?

[TheMacGuffin]

i'm afraid that you not having an answer doesn't mean that the joke isn't on you in this case...

I'm not taking the bait any more, mcrom.