CommunitarianKevin Posted October 31, 2012 #26 Share Posted October 31, 2012 (edited) Isn't that interesting...my husband is almost a sixty year old Rebulican that is pro choice and pro gay marriage. If you made the same stereotypical remarks about blacks or other ethnic groups you would be considered a racist. Isn't it odd how it's totally okay to villinize one group of people and not another? I'm sure some people think is is you that will not listen, is uncompromising and needs to change his stance. I never said it is always the case. There are always exceptions. What you are suggesting is that there are no common points in political parties. I wonder how the political party you are part of manages to holds itself together with no common ideas or goals. How do they get anything done or make any policies when everyone as a different opinion? I was under the impression that political parties were made up of people with similar ideas and beliefs...that is why parties form right? If you think that about me you have not talked to the Repubs that I have PMed on here. I have talked to quite a few of them. We still do not agree on most points but they explained their points and I explained why I do not agree. We have found that a lot of times we both want the same things, we are just looking at different parts. Let's look at government aid for example...The Repubs that I have talked to are focusing on those that are taking advantage of the system. I agree, people are...and I do not like it. But I am focusing on those that actually need the help. We both want people to work hard and not take advantage of the system we are just looking at it from different angles. Edit: Also, don't throw this all at me. You have made assumptions and generalizations about me. I make an observation about a political party and I am out of line, but you make a judgement based on something I say or a sig I have, it is okay... Edited October 31, 2012 by HuttonEtAl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted October 31, 2012 #27 Share Posted October 31, 2012 People are often fiscally conservative and socially liberal. It really depends on what is more important to the individual at the time of the elections. If you have found out that Republicans aren't that different, and you both want the same things, one has to wonder why you criticize them so often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommunitarianKevin Posted October 31, 2012 #28 Share Posted October 31, 2012 People are often fiscally conservative and socially liberal. It really depends on what is more important to the individual at the time of the elections. If you have found out that Republicans aren't that different, and you both want the same things, one has to wonder why you criticize them so often. I criticize them because I think they are going about things the wrong way or looking at the wrong end. When I point that out we either agree to disagree or they do not answer me. I know some are economically conservative and socially liberal...that causes contradictions. I think contradictions make them look bad and hypocritical. Some of them just make flat out stupid remarks, like Todd Akin, and some of the others I have posted about around here. I could put a note in my sig that when I say "Repubs" I do not mean every Repub in America...but even if I did that, I doubt very many people would read my sig... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted October 31, 2012 #29 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I, personally, like people that are well rounded and capable of seeing the flaws within their own party. If they can't seem to find any flaws in said party I can only see blind partisanship, which in itself, is ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
preacherman76 Posted October 31, 2012 #30 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Meh, just divide the country up like it was during the civil war. The south can have their Confederate States of America...I will take the United States of America. Personaly Id rather have what the founders invisioned for America. A federal government who's job is to keep the American people free. Leave everything else to the states, and or to the people. Any government big enough to provide everything you need, is big enough to take away everything you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommunitarianKevin Posted October 31, 2012 #31 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I, personally, like people that are well rounded and capable of seeing the flaws within their own party. If they can't seem to find any flaws in said party I can only see blind partisanship, which in itself, is ignorance. I do see flaws in my own party and I often get "likes" when I point them out. I think the NDAA thing is wrong and I am not sure if I fully agree with Obamacare. The Dems have issues too but I agree with the vast majority of what they stand for and disagree with most of what Repubs stand for. It makes my decision easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommunitarianKevin Posted October 31, 2012 #32 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Personaly Id rather have what the founders invisioned for America. A federal government who's job is to keep the American people free. Leave everything else to the states, and or to the people. Any government big enough to provide everything you need, is big enough to take away everything you have. But see, this is an incorrect assumption. We cannot talk about the "founders" as if they were one all coherent group. They were highly divided on what was best for the nation. After the Articles of Confederation failed they needed a new type of government. They were divided into the Federalists and the Anti-Federalists. They put forth two different plans and compromises were made. There is no single set plan that the founders had. They had similar beliefs about many things but they were still very different people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
preacherman76 Posted October 31, 2012 #33 Share Posted October 31, 2012 But see, this is an incorrect assumption. We cannot talk about the "founders" as if they were one all coherent group. They were highly divided on what was best for the nation. After the Articles of Confederation failed they needed a new type of government. They were divided into the Federalists and the Anti-Federalists. They put forth two different plans and compromises were made. There is no single set plan that the founders had. They had similar beliefs about many things but they were still very different people. They still left us with the consitution and bill of rights. Both heavily restricting the roll of the US government. We have since "compromised" to the point where neither document is taken seriously in any way. We have chipped away at the foundation of what this government was suppose to be to the point where now it can no longer support our structure. I didnt incorrectly assume all the founders were of one mind, but I think I stand on firm ground when I say that when the dust settled, they gave us the greatest type of government this world has ever seen. And we are doing everything in our power to dismantle it. Then folks like myself who point this out get told im unwilling to compromise. To which I say we have already been compromise into oblivion. The roll of the federal government should be to keep the people free. Cause nothing prospers a people the way freedom does. Every compromise made, takes us further from that goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommunitarianKevin Posted October 31, 2012 #34 Share Posted October 31, 2012 (edited) They still left us with the consitution and bill of rights. Both heavily restricting the roll of the US government. We have since "compromised" to the point where neither document is taken seriously in any way. We have chipped away at the foundation of what this government was suppose to be to the point where now it can no longer support our structure. I didnt incorrectly assume all the founders were of one mind, but I think I stand on firm ground when I say that when the dust settled, they gave us the greatest type of government this world has ever seen. And we are doing everything in our power to dismantle it. Then folks like myself who point this out get told im unwilling to compromise. To which I say we have already been compromise into oblivion. The roll of the federal government should be to keep the people free. Cause nothing prospers a people the way freedom does. Every compromise made, takes us further from that goal. Oh, you brought up a point I didn't mention. The Bill of Rights was part of the compromise, and in my opinion is the most valuable part. I agree with you that they did form the greatest government the world has seen and I do believe the Constitution is a living document. I believe it has changed for the better. It changed to give us women's rights and black civil rights. We have done a lot but I still think we have work to do to make it the best government for EVERYONE. We have yet to find equality. Granted there have been some bumps along the road, but I feel we are working them out. Also things have come back to bite people in the ass. The whole "seperation of church and state" thing was orginally formed out of a court case where Protestants were trying to oppress Catholics. Oh, how did that turn around on them...I think when you oppress someone's freedom, it will come around to bite you... Either way I think the Constitution more favors a strong federal government. The Bill of Rights, the most important part, protect the people from it. The Constitution makes things very difficult to change, and if stuff has changed, it was changed by the system that was set up in the Constitution. Edited October 31, 2012 by HuttonEtAl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
preacherman76 Posted October 31, 2012 #35 Share Posted October 31, 2012 But Hut, the constitution, for the most part, no longer exists. Its teeth have been filed down to practicaly nothing. This federal government infringes on nearly every single right granted by it. You can go right down the line and see how the original amendments for the most part, no longer exist. Especialy since the "war on terror" began. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommunitarianKevin Posted October 31, 2012 #36 Share Posted October 31, 2012 But Hut, the constitution, for the most part, no longer exists. Its teeth have been filed down to practicaly nothing. This federal government infringes on nearly every single right granted by it. You can go right down the line and see how the original amendments for the most part, no longer exist. Especialy since the "war on terror" began. Yeah, the war on terror has changed a lot of things...it was a major power grab...and by a Repub president... But the truth is that Congress allowed it to happen. Congress could have ended the war on terror before it started. They chose not to. Things change in time of turmoil. The Great Depression caused a large power grab, and then 9/11 did. People demand action by the federal government (here is the contridiction.) If you demand the federal goverment to make things okay again, they need the power to do so. The same goes when it comes to presidential strength. The president had very little power but we demanded he fix our problems...now he has more power so that he is more capable of doing that. We asked for this, and the system we set up allowed for this. We have the ability to pass amendments and we allow the Supreme Court to rule on things. The thing that irritates me is that people portray it as Dems trying to grab power. It is equal on both sides. Bush grabbed more power for the federal government than anyone in history, more than FDR did...just keep it real people... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
preacherman76 Posted October 31, 2012 #37 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Yeah, the war on terror has changed a lot of things...it was a major power grab...and by a Repub president... But the truth is that Congress allowed it to happen. Congress could have ended the war on terror before it started. They chose not to. Things change in time of turmoil. The Great Depression caused a large power grab, and then 9/11 did. People demand action by the federal government (here is the contridiction.) If you demand the federal goverment to make things okay again, they need the power to do so. The same goes when it comes to presidential strength. The president had very little power but we demanded he fix our problems...now he has more power so that he is more capable of doing that. We asked for this, and the system we set up allowed for this. We have the ability to pass amendments and we allow the Supreme Court to rule on things. The thing that irritates me is that people portray it as Dems trying to grab power. It is equal on both sides. Bush grabbed more power for the federal government than anyone in history, more than FDR did...just keep it real people... Well said. I think the most profound thing you said here is how people tend to blame the 'other side' for the power grabs. Thats the most powerful tool they have to keep gaining power. The fact that they have us so incredibly divided. People actualy believe that there are 2 parties that stand for different things. They are all in on this together. Its like watching professional wresling. 0bama spent lots of time bashing Bush for things like the patriot act, and how he needed a lesson on the constitution for going to war undeclared by congress, just to turn around and not only continue the patriot act, but then ADDED to it. He aquired the power to detain and or kill an American, on American soil indefinitly, with no due process, while saying it would only be done according to the "rule of law". The rule of law??? Amazing. He waged a war on Lybia without even bringing the issue to congress at all. Bush, Clinton, 0bama, Romney, Regan, Bush 2, ect ect all work for the same people. All had and have the same goal. They dont work for us, and thier goals are globalisation, and destroying American sovernty. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjadude Posted November 1, 2012 #38 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Isn't that interesting...my husband is almost a sixty year old Rebulican that is pro choice and pro gay marriage. OMG, the Republicans will take his card away!! Did he listen to the Repub debates? all 100 candidates were against those things. The throngs waxed at the convention about how those things are evil. The Republicans have moved on. Your husband is now a democrat. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted November 1, 2012 #39 Share Posted November 1, 2012 (edited) OMG, the Republicans will take his card away!! Did he listen to the Repub debates? all 100 candidates were against those things. The throngs waxed at the convention about how those things are evil. The Republicans have moved on. Your husband is now a democrat. The Republican Party IS a big tent. Ever heard of the Log Cabin Republicans? You think the Democrats own issues...you apparently also think that they own people...they don't. The Republicans have a platform...but recognize that people have different ideas on a variety of issues and everyone is welcome in the party regardless of whether they support every aspect of a particular platform...but the Democrats on the other hand...well, you better tow the Party Line 100% or face consequences. That is YOUR party. But, you know, birds of a feather and all. Edited November 1, 2012 by joc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommunitarianKevin Posted November 1, 2012 #40 Share Posted November 1, 2012 The Republican Party IS a big tent. Ever heard of the Log Cabin Republicans? You think the Democrats own issues...you apparently also think that they own people...they don't. The Republicans have a platform...but recognize that people have different ideas on a variety of issues and everyone is welcome in the party regardless of whether they support every aspect of a particular platform...but the Democrats on the other hand...well, you better tow the Party Line 100% or face consequences. That is YOUR party. But, you know, birds of a feather and all. Total speculation. That claim is totally unfounded and I hope you try to show other wise. But if the Repubs do have a platflorm, does it mean I am sterotyping a group unfairly if I point out the issues on that platform? Some seem to think so... The parties are exactly the same in the beliefs of their members and I also think you would have a hard time proving that Repubs are accepting of different views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted November 1, 2012 #41 Share Posted November 1, 2012 (edited) Total speculation. That claim is totally unfounded and I hope you try to show other wise. But if the Repubs do have a platflorm, does it mean I am sterotyping a group unfairly if I point out the issues on that platform? Some seem to think so... The parties are exactly the same in the beliefs of their members and I also think you would have a hard time proving that Repubs are accepting of different views. You really don't have to look farther than Michelle's post to debunk that! But if the Repubs do have a platflorm, does it mean I am sterotyping a group unfairly if I point out the issues on that platform? What you said is that the Republicans would throw someone out of their party that disagreed with the platform...that is just wrong. Edit: Oh wait, sorry, you didn't say that NinjaDude said that. My bad. nonetheless... Edited November 1, 2012 by joc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommunitarianKevin Posted November 1, 2012 #42 Share Posted November 1, 2012 You really don't have to look farther than Michelle's post to debunk that! What you said is that the Republicans would throw someone out of their party that disagreed with the platform...that is just wrong. Edit: Oh wait, sorry, you didn't say that NinjaDude said that. My bad. nonetheless... That is ONE example. Let me ask you a question...how would you define the Republican platform? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted November 1, 2012 #43 Share Posted November 1, 2012 That is ONE example. Let me ask you a question...how would you define the Republican platform? Well, I know that you aren't asking me what IS the Republican Platform, but for those who don't know I share the LINK. Preamble Restoring the American Dream:Rebuilding the Economy and Creating Jobs We The People: A Restoration of Constitutional Government America’s Natural Resources: Energy, Agriculture and the Environment Reforming Government to Serve the People Renewing American Values to Build Healthy Families, Great Schools and Safe Neighborhoods American Exceptionalism The Platform Committee Let me ask you a question...how would you define the Republican platform I would say that the Republican Platform is indeed supported by the vast majority of Americans...but it isn't an all or nothing proposition. I think the vast majority of Americans lean more ProLife than ProChoice for instance...but there is a host of varying opinions about abortion within the party. Most say Abortion only in cases of Rape or Incest or to save the Life of the Mother. Others say...never, never, never. Others still think it isn't that big of a deal. Some believe Human Life begins at conception and abortion is murder. Others believe that Abortion up to a particular point is okay but not after that. And that is just ONE issue. But we don't say...oh, you can't be a Republican unless you see it this particular way. When the platform is written, it is never going to reflect everyone's beliefs...but that's okay...it reflects a majority of belief in the party. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommunitarianKevin Posted November 1, 2012 #44 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Well, I know that you aren't asking me what IS the Republican Platform, but for those who don't know I share the LINK. Preamble Restoring the American Dream:Rebuilding the Economy and Creating Jobs We The People: A Restoration of Constitutional Government America’s Natural Resources: Energy, Agriculture and the Environment Reforming Government to Serve the People Renewing American Values to Build Healthy Families, Great Schools and Safe Neighborhoods American Exceptionalism The Platform Committee I would say that the Republican Platform is indeed supported by the vast majority of Americans...but it isn't an all or nothing proposition. I think the vast majority of Americans lean more ProLife than ProChoice for instance...but there is a host of varying opinions about abortion within the party. Most say Abortion only in cases of Rape or Incest or to save the Life of the Mother. Others say...never, never, never. Others still think it isn't that big of a deal. Some believe Human Life begins at conception and abortion is murder. Others believe that Abortion up to a particular point is okay but not after that. And that is just ONE issue. But we don't say...oh, you can't be a Republican unless you see it this particular way. When the platform is written, it is never going to reflect everyone's beliefs...but that's okay...it reflects a majority of belief in the party. Please explain that to Michelle. If I say something that reflects a majority belief, I am sterotyping... And for the record, you did state that Republicans do lean a certain way? And I never said that you had to believe this or that to be a Repub, only that most believe that... It is not an unfair statement for me to say that most Republicans believe in the pro life stance...but some people get upset when I say things like that because it is a generalization. Thanks though joc...you actually helped me out on this point...you were not telling me anything I didn't already know. I just hope someone else reads this...for some reason, I bet they do not call you out on it though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted November 1, 2012 #45 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Please explain that to Michelle. If I say something that reflects a majority belief, I am sterotyping... And for the record, you did state that Republicans do lean a certain way? And I never said that you had to believe this or that to be a Repub, only that most believe that... It is not an unfair statement for me to say that most Republicans believe in the pro life stance...but some people get upset when I say things like that because it is a generalization. Thanks though joc...you actually helped me out on this point...you were not telling me anything I didn't already know. I just hope someone else reads this...for some reason, I bet they do not call you out on it though... You are obviously talking about Michelle, who is a friend of mine. I don't know all Republicans so I don't know what each and every one of them thinks or preaches. I am capable of seeing the difference in the people that are willing to compromise and work together and the ones that clearly wouldn't. It's the extremists on both sides of the coin that worry me the most. There is nothing to call me out on...because I speak the truth. And I am not extreme. But if we have found common ground...fire one up...so be it! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommunitarianKevin Posted November 1, 2012 #46 Share Posted November 1, 2012 You are obviously talking about Michelle, who is a friend of mine. Yes, I am...I said that in that post... So please talk to her because I am sick of her claiming that I am unrightfully sterotyping Republicans when I state the majory stance of the party. YOU just admitted there is a majority belief. I am not some intolerant, sterotyping, ******* when ever I point them out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted November 1, 2012 #47 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Yes, I am...I said that in that post... So please talk to her because I am sick of her claiming that I am unrightfully sterotyping Republicans when I state the majory stance of the party. YOU just admitted there is a majority belief. I am not some intolerant, sterotyping, ******* when ever I point them out... No, but you do tend to come off that way sometimes. I don't think it is so much what you say, as much as it is the way you say it. And...here is a reality you may not quite be getting...Most of us do not TRUST Obama...I personally loathe the man...but there are many whos support for Obama is such that they defend him at all cost...refusing to see actual blatantly truthful arguments against him...and so, whenever I encounter that mindset...I tend to place the feelings I have toward Obama onto that individual as well. I think that is just human nature though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommunitarianKevin Posted November 1, 2012 #48 Share Posted November 1, 2012 No, but you do tend to come off that way sometimes. I don't think it is so much what you say, as much as it is the way you say it. And...here is a reality you may not quite be getting...Most of us do not TRUST Obama...I personally loathe the man...but there are many whos support for Obama is such that they defend him at all cost...refusing to see actual blatantly truthful arguments against him...and so, whenever I encounter that mindset...I tend to place the feelings I have toward Obama onto that individual as well. I think that is just human nature though. Well I will give you that I may come off as that way sometimes...I just feel like I do not need to put an astrik and say *I don't mean all Repubs in every post. I do not speak in aboslutes. Also, you assume I worship Obama. I do not. He has done things I do not agree with and I have stated this over and over again but many of you seem to ignore it. The fact is Obama is not a dictator, so I am not much worried about his personal drive or opinions, though I do not think he is how you discribe, but we can agree to disagree. What I support is the ideals of the Democratic party. I am a Liberal. He is my ONE choice. I cannot vote for Hillary or anyone else. I am voting for the party, not for him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted November 1, 2012 #49 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Well I will give you that I may come off as that way sometimes...I just feel like I do not need to put an astrik and say *I don't mean all Repubs in every post. I do not speak in aboslutes. Also, you assume I worship Obama. I do not. He has done things I do not agree with and I have stated this over and over again but many of you seem to ignore it. The fact is Obama is not a dictator, so I am not much worried about his personal drive or opinions, though I do not think he is how you discribe, but we can agree to disagree. What I support is the ideals of the Democratic party. I am a Liberal. He is my ONE choice. I cannot vote for Hillary or anyone else. I am voting for the party, not for him. I don't support the ideas of the Democrat Party. I am a conservative. Conservative vs Liberal Ah, but there is something so much deeper than that going on...at least I think there is...and that is: Birth Box vs Birth Box Whatever you were taught from birth....vs...whatever someone else was taught from birth Why are you a Liberal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommunitarianKevin Posted November 1, 2012 #50 Share Posted November 1, 2012 (edited) I don't support the ideas of the Democrat Party. I am a conservative. Conservative vs Liberal Ah, but there is something so much deeper than that going on...at least I think there is...and that is: Birth Box vs Birth Box Whatever you were taught from birth....vs...whatever someone else was taught from birth Why are you a Liberal? Luckily for me my parents did not have much of an opinion on religion or politics. Politics was never a topic. I honestly do not know if my parents have ever voted to this day. If I had to put money on it, I would say they have not, though I do think they would vote Democrat. Religion was also mostly a non-issue. They made me go to Sunday School and church on the holidays, I had to get Confirmed, but other than that religion was not talked about. Now, my dad is an ancient astronaut theorist and I would guess an agnostic atheist. He no longer believes (and that is mainly due to his bad luck in the stock market, he blames God.) I think my mom believes, but I am not sure. I got really into religion when I was in the military and that has continued thoughout my college career. I never liked politics and never watched it on TV. I was exposed to politics in my study of religion and history (I study the evolution-creationism controversy.) My majors are Religious Studies, History, and Education, with a minor in Jewish Studies. My education major forces me to be well rounded. It makes me take a class in everything. I took a class that really got me interested in politics. It was my intro to American Government class. I had a hard time trying to find out where I was. I found out that camps that best discribe me are socially Communitarian and economically Liberal. I based these on my study of history and human geography. My political beliefs came though my understanding of history, what has happened and what works vs what doesn't work. I do believe in capitalism, but not laissez faire (free market) capitalism. I have posted about this a number of times and explained why, based on history. My beliefs have everything to do with my education and my experiences in the military and nothing to do with how I was brought up...but that is just me... And I should add that I am not opposed to changing my view, at least economically, but as of yet, I have no seen the reason to do so...a buddy of mine and the smartest person I have ever met is a Libertarian. I have been talking with him. If anyone can sway me, it would be him but as of yet, I do not accept his conclusion based on hypotheticals and history. Edited November 1, 2012 by HuttonEtAl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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