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When ‘God’s will,’ rape and pregnancy collide


ozman

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Well first off, most people who believe in the Abrahamic tradition ( ie. Christianity, Islam, Judaism), and who tout "gods will" tend to forget the pretty basic concept of "free will". Which basically dictates that in order for there to even be original sin there had to be the ability to either choose or reject it. This leads to the fact that the world is very much like a wind up toy, yes God started things in motion (whither by big bang, or by chucking Lama's into the air or whatnot is irrevelent), but then is mostly stepped away from the affairs of humanity leaving us to choose what we will. Thus humans will inevitable make evil decisions like to rape another individual; The rape would not be "God's will" just any more then it is "God's will" for me to eat a frikken candy bar. So we can remove the concept of god wanting a rape victim to be forced to carry on the pregnancy from said rape.

Now as for is abortion morally acceptable in any situation, that is a totally different issue; and basically boils down to the question of "When does the lump of sperm cells become aware?" before that point then yes abortion through surgical or chemical means would be allowed and be no different that cutting your fingernails; it's only cells. But after... well then you are taking the life of a sentient being, that is murder, and you have to ask whither murdering that individual was in any way justified.

Abortion is not murder. As Ryleh pointed out, murder is the illegal killing of another person. Abortion, being legal, is not murder.

Edit:Also, these politicians need to stay out of uterus's. It's no damn business of theirs if a women wants to get an abortion.

Edited by Imaginarynumber1
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Abortion is not murder. As Ryleh pointed out, murder is the illegal killing of another person. Abortion, being legal, is not murder.

Edit:Also, these politicians need to stay out of uterus's. It's no damn business of theirs if a women wants to get an abortion.

By that argument the Holocaust was ok, it was completely legal according to the country doing it. Simply because a government, people, or religion deem an action acceptable does not make it so. Any action done to harm in any way a sentient being is wrong no matter what belief system you choose to follow says about it. Now whither the women of this country deem the loss of an innocent live acceptable to insure their own life is a question that does need to be fairly answered, but let us approach the matter with clear eyes and not try to explain away the issue through definitions. Also I thought I made it pretty clear that I was totally for the free providential of contraceptives and other means to bring any pregnancy into check immediately in the event of a rape.

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By that argument the Holocaust was ok, it was completely legal according to the country doing it. Simply because a government, people, or religion deem an action acceptable does not make it so. Any action done to harm in any way a sentient being is wrong no matter what belief system you choose to follow says about it. Now whither the women of this country deem the loss of an innocent live acceptable to insure their own life is a question that does need to be fairly answered, but let us approach the matter with clear eyes and not try to explain away the issue through definitions. Also I thought I made it pretty clear that I was totally for the free providential of contraceptives and other means to bring any pregnancy into check immediately in the event of a rape.

It's not an argument. The law states that murder is the illegal killing of another and right now abortion is legal. Besides, a blastocyst is not a person.

10162012001412iwsmt.jpeg

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Of course anyone that has been raped should have the right to an abortion , I don't understand how anything else can come into it .

Imagine being raped , imagine the terror the victim feels , do we have the right to tell the victim that they can't abort the pregnancy ?, do we have the right to tell them that they will have to see the rapists face in their child for the rest of their lives ? Of course not , Its not up too anyone except the victim and their doctor and family .

Gods will hey - Don't start me on this one , If god was all so powerful and kind why does rape exist ? Is god forcing these people to commit rape ? Is that his will ?

Religion and politics have no part in this debate , IMHO when one or the other get involved things become messy and personal belief seem to over power common sense .

TiP.

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I had a friend that was the child of a rapist, he commited sucide because of how he was concieved. I dont think its fair on the woman nor the child....

He couldnt handle that fact that 'older' (people of the age that knew about the case when it happened) knew about him and what happend to his mother.. having to deal with the fact his father -- wasnt a 'father' per say...

Ate him up till he couldnt handle it?

this alone has made me say to people that believe abortion in this case is wrong.... GET OVER YOURSELF AND LET PEOPLE BE... you think its wrong, when you get raped, have your baby - but its not up to you to decide for others...

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I can not possibly imagine anyone with a brain voting Republican right now. If Romney gets elected, after his assassination,Vice Presidential candidate Eddie Munster will become president. I psychically predict that this young man is the next potential hitler-like dicktator.

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So we can remove the concept of god wanting a rape victim to be forced to carry on the pregnancy from said rape.
According to the Bible, God creates you in the womb. Those who believe this are faced with the dilemma of rape.
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Anybody else temporarily think this thread was about gods raping people who ended up pregnant, before reading the article?

"When gods will rape and pregnancy collides" lol

Edited by WoIverine
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Is that the first thing that comes to mind when you think of abortion in these scenarios?

Well she sure didn't have a choice during the rape part.

Not really. I just don't think it's anyone else's business but the victim to make such determinations. Politically determining the legality of abortion doesn't sound constitutional.

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Problem with maistream religion is that on one hand, it glorifies the unborn life, and calls the created blastocell "a unique individual", and wants ti give him all rights, and whatever, but on other hand, grown men are considered a flock, chunks of meat who should work and pay for their church, someone who should be forced to feel threatened by other religions, etc. If you look at religious practices, it is always a collective approach where an individual person becomes insignificant in crowd. and that's really sad, for ccorect way to experience God should be on personal basis.

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I happen to know a woman who had a child that came out her being raped. Both her & her son's lives are so charged with emotion around this that neither are sure having the child was the best decision. We take life all the time, by the hundreds, and hundreds of thousands. It's called war. We put criminals to death. We let starving people die when we have the means to feed them. "And all of the people involved are viable human beings, walking, talking, breathing air, with families. The idea of calling abortion murder has it's genesis with the religious right, and when we bring God into the equation it becomes a religious issue. While I respect the religious beliefs of others, I do not want it legislated and forced on me or my community. All one has to do is look back in history to see what happens to a country when religious beliefs become paramount to all else: the Inquisition, witch burnings, land and property being taken away, executions, women being barred from education, men forced to wear beards, people's lives in danger because of their beliefs. It's a slippery slope, and one we should stay off us.

For me the concept of kiling an unborn human being a form of murder came about while I was a secular humanist and atheist. It is just logical, philosophically ethically and morally, not to kill an unborn human UNLESS compelling rights of the mother overide those rights.

In general there are laws protecting the rights of living people, even if those laws are often broken. There is little current law protecting the rights of the unborn, mostly because the rise of womens rights in the later half of the twentieth century overturned them. Unborn need the same spokespeople, articulate political activists and others, to protect them that women had in the mid to late 20th century, but are unlikely to find such people within their own numbers :innocent: Thus it is up to others to speak and act for them.

Abortion is NOT a religious issue. Nor is euthanasia. Both are human rights issues, for every human being.

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According to the Bible, God creates you in the womb. Those who believe this are faced with the dilemma of rape.

LOL Rape in marriage is a quite new concept. Is it rape if god creates you within the bonds of his spiritual marriage to all human women. Please note my tongue's position; firmly in cheek.

I am not so sure of the bible's position on this anyway. I think its writers understood the physical facts of procreation, but some did believe that our human spirit or soul is passed into each human being by god, at conception, and taken back at death..

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LOL Rape in marriage is a quite new concept. Is it rape if god creates you within the bonds of his spiritual marriage to all human women. Please note my tongue's position; firmly in cheek.

I said nothing about marriage.
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I said nothing about marriage.

I know that But you spoke of god raping women. Can it be rape within a spiritual marriage of creator and created?

. My point was that, in the times you referred to, people saw the relationship thus, and so if god placed a human embryo in every human female it was not, in that culture, rape but an act of love within spiritual marriage.

Rape in mariage as a concept or a crime did not exist in western societies until the mid to late 20th century. Before that, even in a physical earthly marriage a man could not rape a wife because her consent to sex was legally conferred in their marriage vows and could not be unilaterally withdrawn by her. This has been overturned in recent times, even retrospectively, but until the culture changed, a man could not rape his wife, and so how could a creator god rape any of his creations. Their consent was iimplicit, even explicitly understood, in the relationship between god and humanity. (At that time)

Of course we modern humnas know that god has nothing to do with the conception of children, nor with the creation of their spirit or soul. And so we know that god plays no part in the rape of a woman, or any children who might be born from rape.

Edited by Mr Walker
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I know that But you spoke of god raping women. Can it be rape within a spiritual marriage of creator and created?

I said no such thing.

I said the Bible suggests God forms humans in the womb. If correct, any rape that results in pregnancy, implies God formed the embryo knowing fully well the woman desired nothing of the sort and brings up further problems the women is forced to deal with.

Edited by Rlyeh
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My stand is abortion is a women's health care issue and is between her and her doctor. The government need to stay out of women's uterus.

I think this is a great question for them:

589930_f260.jpg

Edited by ChloeB
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I think this is a great question for them:

589930_f260.jpg

They will say there is no such thing as a gay fetus because there is no 'gay gene'. You know how they are.

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I said no such thing.

I said the Bible suggests God forms humans in the womb. If correct, any rape that results in pregnancy, implies God formed the embryo knowing fully well the woman desired nothing of the sort and brings up further problems the women is forced to deal with.

Oh you know...but then they would just say that God has a plan and that God would never give anyone more than they could handle...blah blah blah.

That's the great thing about Christianity - if you are a true believer in it, nobody can ever really criticize you. There's always a workaround. You can always fall back on the tried and true - God's will is infallible....or even better....nobody can know or understand God's will. Which is usually a rough translation for "I don't know the answer to your question, but I know that its making me uncomfortable...stop asking questions about God."

My, my...I'm in a cynical mood today, aren't i?

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People always add "God" to any equation as a scapegoat, to flee from responsibility and to deny system failure

Edited by FlyingAngel
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  • 4 weeks later...

I'm for abortion when the foetus lacks the chromosomes that make it human. (Before 3 months after insemination I think)

I'm for abortion if the foetus will kill the mother.

I'm for abortion if the baby is going to be born with a defect or disability that renders it as a vegetable or where it will live in pain for it's entire life, no one deserves to be brought into this horrible world AND have to live with a horrible disability.

Once it's human, then I personally think it should be kept alive and put up for adoption or whatever but even if the mother chooses to get an abortion late into the pregnancy, I respect her choice to do so and think that everyone else should get the **** away and keep to their own business. It is her body and her choice, what if someone told you not to brush your teeth because you were committing mass genocide on the bacterial life in your mouth? and Yes, i compared human life to bacteria - what of it? My Reason - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IVqMXPFYwI

And yes, I've heard the Ray comfort argument (Guy's a nob by the way - Banana is the Atheists nightmare, look it up), where he compares the Holocaust to abortion. Those Jews, handicaps, Homosexual's, Gypsy's etc were all living breathing people with lives, the foetus is not when it's in it early stages and let's be honest, the differences between a madman trying to exterminate millions of people based on ethnicities and backgrounds is a lot worse than someone getting rid of a rape-baby or a mass of cells that has been growing in their womb for a few weeks, a mass that has had the fortune of never setting foot into this world - it won't care, the foetus is indifferent to it, do you remember being in the womb? No? so you see...

Know this. We humans have survived on slaughter and killing. We kill many different species in order to eat and survive (Chicken, Ape, pigs and cows to name a few) so what makes their slaughter any less horrible than a humans? Last I checked, all of those species can have children, they feel pain, they can cry, they have emotions (even if we cannot read them well) and above all, they're like us - inhabitants of this planet, animals. Don't get me wrong here, I'm not a vegetarian or an animals rights activist, I'm just making a point that we kill other beings to sustain ourselves but we look the other way with ease because they're not us, we can't talk to them or understand them. Interesting point - You ever notice how people act when they see a dog getting killed or beaten? They flip out big time but likewise, when met with the fact that the burger they hold was possible only from a pigs or cow being gutted and killed they either don't care, or retort with "Yeah, well they use a bolt now so the pig won't feel anything" Yeah, well I doubt the foetus really gives a **** either, they feel no pain for 24 weeks, more than enough time to make a decision on whether to keep it don't you think? The only reason people are so touchy about dogs is because they are used as pets on a mass scale.

Humans once had no problem in killing each other, it was common practice, entertainment even, look at ancient Rome, Greece and the Mesoamerican civilisations ffs, better yet, look at the 'Christian Nation' that is America, or 'The Holy Land', The Death Penalty is common Practice in both and in 'Murica', (The 'Christian Nation) it seems a lot of states have chosen to ignore their 6th commandment - not very Christian a nation are they? As for the Holy land and it's predominantly Islamic Law, they take a more easy stance on killing - Anyone who kills an innocent person, anyone who is homosexual, anyone who cites blasphemy or who commits adultery can be killed, just like that - more so women than men too - refer to the Rape Law or how women are treated compared to men when killed by stoning.

Look here because the powers that be won't let me use an image extension - http://en.wikipedia....ited_States.svg

See, people like to think that this world is built on justice and that no one likes to kill but one only has to look at their laws and their makers and indeed society both now and in the past, to see that that assumption is very wrong indeed - You can't change human nature, we can't; no matter how much we want to believe it; we'll always be killers in one way or the other. We're animals like the monkeys and the pigs, we're nothing special, we just think we are becuase we've turned materials into stuff, so grow the **** up and shake of the superiority complex.

"You can't stop what's comin', that's vanity - it's not all waiting on you"

Edited by Sean93
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