Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

[Van Gorp]

So why does the rabbit, another burrower, get a general name which, according to you, means something like 'to go in', while all the others get more specific names?

Btw, a mole doesn't dig with it's head or mouth, but with its claws.

Like I said, this play with words can be fun, but for proof of anything you will need other sciences. Remnants of voles, moles, beavers, badgers. rats and mice of 3500 years old - Jon's story in the OLB - have been found, but not of rabbits.

:-) Yes that's true. A mole doesn't dig with his moel.

We use the word 'knaagdieren' also in general, so i wouldn't find it strange if an other more general name pointing to a group of 'hole diggers' (bigger than mice/rats and used for pels) was used too.

Proof is ambigu (we had proof about Saddam and his WMD), I admit not really seeking any of that and just amusing myself here.

What is proof and established for you can mean not very much for me. What has a meaning for me can be of total irrelevance for you.

But IMO if you go with the story that Hispania is called after badgers when they actually saw rabbits, you must also be prepared to see that maybe some other animals than rabbits were meant with Kanin alike words.

[Abramelin]

:-) Yes that's true. A mole doesn't dig with his moel.

We use the word 'knaagdieren' also in general, so i wouldn't find it strange if an other more general name pointing to a group of 'hole diggers' (bigger than mice/rats and used for pels) was used too.

Proof is ambigu (we had proof about Saddam and his WMD), I admit not really seeking any of that and just amusing myself here.

What is proof and established for you can mean not very much for me. What has a meaning for me can be of total irrelevance for you.

But IMO if you go with the story that Hispania is called after badgers when they actually saw rabbits, you must also be prepared to see that maybe some other animals than rabbits were meant with Kanin alike words.

I did not choose one above the other, but I combined linguistical, archeological and paleobiological finds.

It's not about preferring one kind of proof/fact/idea above the other because one is more 'fun' than the other, it's about several disciplines pointing to the same thing.

Anyway: you like this Scrabble a lot, but fabricating your own words based on the medieval idea that Dutch-ish was some sort of original language of ancient Europe will only side-track from what we are trying to do here, and that is finding out what parts of the OLB could be true or not.

Now, if you can prove by showing ancient documents or inscriptions that Dutch-ish is indeed the oldest and original language of ancient Europe on which all other European languages are based, then you have a point.

.

Edited November 3, 2012 by Abramelin

[Van Gorp]

I did not choose one above the other, but I combined linguistical, archeological and paleobiological finds.

It's not about preferring one kind of proof/fact/idea above the other because one is more 'fun' than the other, it's about several disciplines pointing to the same thing.

Anyway: you like this Scrabble a lot, but fabricating your own words based on the medieval idea that Dutch-ish was some sort of original language of ancient Europe will only side-track from what we are trying to do here, and that is finding out what parts of the OLB could be true or not.

That's a good one: OLB is full of word scramble. Finding out the story goes together with that :-)

Maybe you can begin with finding out what parts of the history of your country is true or not. Then please go further with OLB.

[Abramelin]

That's a good one: OLB is full of word scramble. Finding out the story goes together with that :-)

Maybe you can begin with finding out what parts of the history of your country is true or not. Then please go further with OLB.

That the history of the Netherlands of between 200 and 1000 AD is not really what many think it is, is based on Delahaye's theory. Even if his theory is right, what difference would that make for the OLB which is supposed to have been put on paper around 600 BC and many centuries before a couple of catastrophic Dunkirk Transgressions of which one made the Romans leave, a theory which has been discarded or at least changed very much?

=

The OLB is full of scrabble, yes, or folk etymology if you like, but at least it does have an 'ancient flavor', unlike your Dutch-ish / Flemish.

[Van Gorp]

That the history of the Netherlands of between 200 and 1000 AD is not really what many think it is, is based on Delahaye's theory. Even if his theory is right, what difference would that make for the OLB which is supposed to have been put on paper around 600 BC and many centuries before a couple of catastrophic Dunkirk Transgressions of which one made the Romans leave, a theory which has been discarded or at least changed very much?

=

The OLB is full of scrabble, yes, or folk etymology if you like, but at least it does have an 'ancient flavor', unlike your Dutch-ish / Flemish.

Well, maybe it doesn't seem like that too often: me too like to take several approaches besides language into account to get some records straight.

And I'm not of the meaning that Delahaye is alone in talking about doublures/falsifications of placenames and events in time.

He writes about the texts he investigated, concerning Holland and North of France/West-Flanders. And also the missing evidence of many tales.

But even before and after Delahaye there were people considered as scientists/historians who doubted much of the chronology, myhts and events as given from Scaliger on.

Not only our Dutch/Flemish region (so not saying the Flemish history is better known than the Dutch, because it isn't for me), but the whole lot. And language still plays an amusant role in this.

When the Phoenicians and Venetians were both good sailors with a rich history, I find that an amusing phonetic coincidence without suggesting anything.

Language gives us that pleasure :-) Proof? What's in a name, proeven en nog eens proeven: heerlijk op de tong!

I think Monaldi & Sorti should have a chat with some of Delahaye's family. Maybe they can invite Kasparov and Fomenko too. If Newton, Hardouin were alive they could join the club.

Nobody knows it all, we have to search but that seemingly didn't include Scaliger who knew all the years of all events thousands of years back.

Texts about Roman/Greek events were mostly found in the middleages. That's something to be sceptical about I think.

(In OLB I found it evenso puzzling how years of events are counted that far back)

About Dutch/Flemish: indeed a pitty that the 'Algemeen Bijgeschaafd Nederlands' was inforced to diminish the local dialects, but they still exists and some sound pretty much as OLB.

Does this proof anything? Nothing, just taste like it :-)

[Abramelin]

A simple explanation for double place-names (similar place-names in the Netherlands and Belgium/Flanders) can be credited to the Frisiabones/Frisiavones, or the later Fresones moving into the territory of the Eburones who had been massacred by the Romans and their allies.

There have been many floodings in these parts throughout the centuries of course, and the Frisiavones could have grabbed the opportunity to settle in the south in former Eburonian territory when their own land was slowly being swamped by the encroaching North Sea.

OK, so they resettled, and as a remembrance of their former homeland they gave their new settlements the names of their former settlements in the north.

Many placenames in Scotland, England and Belgium carry a part that means 'Frisian' (Otharus once posted a long list), and that can only be explained by people from Frisia settling there.

=

Yeah, the Phoenicians and Venetians.... I have already said that in the Frisian language their names sound almost exactly alike, and those who created the OLB would have known about that.

=

Proof? Proof is for instance radiocarbon dated manuscripts. And they did find ancient Greek and Roman manuscripts of 1500+ years ago. It may have been the medieval Arabs who started translating whatever they could find concerning ancient Greek and Roman manuscripts, but in the 20th century Greek and Roman manuscripts were found dating to many centuries earlier.

So by that we have proof of the ancient Roman and Greek languages, and that's some 700 years before anything Frisian.

=

We have discussed Scaliger in part -1- of this thread. Scaliger interpreted a lot by his understanding of astronomical and astrological constellations, and by combining that with his understanding of Biblical events.

=

The theories of Kasparov and Fomenko have already been debunked. They were as eager to distort or leave out unwanted facts as the ones they had accused of doing so.

.

Edited November 3, 2012 by Abramelin

[Van Gorp]

A simple explanation for double place-names (similar place-names in the Netherlands and Belgium/Flanders can be credited to the Frisiabones/Frisiavones, or the later Fresones moving into the territory of the Eburones who had been massacred by the Romans and their allies.

There have been many floodings in these parts throughout the centuries of course, and the Frisiavones could have grabbed the opportunity to settle in the south in former Eburonian territory when their own land was slowly being swamped by the encroaching North Sea.

OK, so they resettled, and as a remembrance of their former homeland they gave their new settlements the names of their former settlements in the north.

Many placenames in Scotland, England and Belgium carry a part that means 'Frisian' (Otharus once posted a long list), and that can only be explained by people from Frisia settling there.

=

Yeah, the Phoenicians and Venetians.... I have already said that in the Frisian language their names sound almost exactly alike, and those who created the OLB would have known about that.

=

Proof? Proof is for instance radiocarbon dated manuscripts. And they did find ancient Greek and Roman manuscripts of 1500+ years ago. It may have been the medieval Arabs who started translating whatever they could find concerning ancient Greek and Roman manuscripts, but in the 20th century Greek and Roman manuscripts were found dating to many centuries earlier.

So by that we have proof of the ancient Roman and Greek languages, and that's some 700 years before anything Frisian.

=

We have discussed Scaliger in part -1- of this thread. Scaliger interpreted a lot by his understanding of astronomical and astrological constellations, and by combining that with his understanding of Biblical events.

=

The theories of Kasparov and Fomenko have already been debunked. They were as eager to distort or leave out unwanted facts as the ones they had accused of doing so.

.

For the replacements: that doesn't explain for example the deplaced/double story of Willebrord and the veneration of him in North of France.

Either he entered in Holland or in North of France.

And boarding in Holland to go lateron to the south (where the crossing of the channel was much easier) does not make any sense.

Carbon/Scaliger/Fomenko: All depends on the credits you give for some views/examination methods/persons.

In case of accepting to be worthwile for taking into account or quickly leaving aside: up to everybody personally.

About leaving out unwanting facts, that's what we all tend to do to come to a workable conclusion no?

Scaliger did not even leave out his family background, he made up a better version.

Even in accepted archeology they have abundant examples of such anomalies that are left aside, and still theories stand for some.

I wouldn't say they are debunked :-)

debunked quote of some centuries back:

"We live in a time when everyone but swallows everything" he said bitterly on a sarcastic tone,"and I'll bet it's about three or four hundred years

still be so, until the end of time. What you only have to do is endlessly repeating, and it becomes almost true like magic"

[Abramelin]

For the replacements: that doesn't explain for example the deplaced/double story of Willebrord and the veneration of him in North of France.

It easiliy explains: the Frisians went south, and there is where Willibrord met them. OK, so not the Netherlands, and so what? What good or bad does that do to the OLB narrative? Nothing. nothing at all.

Either he entered in Holland or in North of France.

And boarding in Holland to go later on to the south (where the crossing of the channel was much easier) does not make any sense.

They are now digging up a Roman harbour in Katwijk. You know, a harbour that couldn't exist following Delahaye's theory? And that harbour, together with the 'Ganuenta' site in the Dutch province of Zeeland, was an important place for the Romans to set out on their conquest of Britain.

Carbon/Scaliger/Fomenko: All depends on the credits you give for some views/examination methods/persons.

In case of accepting to be worthwile for taking into account or quickly leaving aside: up to everybody personally.

I give credit to modern scientists, 'evil' people that made it possible for you to talk with me online, to drive a car, to talk on a cell phone, watch television, and so on.

About leaving out unwanting facts, that's what we all tend to do to come to a workable conclusion no?

Scaliger did not even leave out his family background, he made up a better version.

Even in accepted archeology they have abundant examples of such anomalies that are left aside, and still theories stand for some.

*I* leave out nothing. *I* am the one who came up with finds that proved the Minoans visited NW Germany. Not you, not anyone of the believers. *I* was the one who posted about a bronze age priest in Schleswig-Holstein carrying a six-spoked ornament. Not you.

You believers have no balls to post about something that should make you doubt.

debunked quote of some centuries back:

"We live in a time when everyone but swallows everything" he said bitterly on a sarcastic tone,"and I'll bet it's about three or four hundred years

still be so, until the end of time. What you only have to do is endlessly repeating, and it becomes almost true like magic"

Whom are you quoting?

Edited November 3, 2012 by Abramelin

[Van Gorp]

...

*I* leave out nothing. *I* am the one who came up with finds that proved the Minoans visited NW Germany. Not you, not anyone of the believers. *I* was the one who posted about a bronze age priest in Schleswig-Holstein carrying a six-spoked ornament. Not you.

You believers have no balls to post about something that should make you doubt.

uhm Abe ... I think I'll give *U* a round of applause and salute before this may take us both into an identity crisis.

Yes, yes I agree: it was really you, it was't me :-)

The believers against the non-believers, this is not really the way I see it. I'm not sure what to believe, you seem to be more certain about my believes than I am.

I doubt much, i even doubt the scientists are evil. But i also doubt they are omniscient about stuff that they just repeat because it was part of the curriculum.

About your last sentence, makes me doubt if you truly want to get my point because not so long ago i did pronounce the doubts i have.

[Van Gorp]

How certain is that? From where did the Romans get them? What is the source for this?

It is also possible that their KANINA were not exactly the same species as our 'konijnen'.

Hi Otharus,

FYI

A possibility concerning the Caninefates which comes into my mind, and connection to KANINA and 'konijnen' could be as follows.

Root "Kan" (like in Latin "canna", Spanish "cañón", kano, kanaal, Can-yon, think 'kenien' in our dialect :-) is just pointing to a long hollow tube.

This is prety obvious i think, hence also the name for animals doing just that.

Btw canis: idem dito, hondje in zijn rieten mandje (kanneke) :-)

Mentionning of Caninefates is always thought to be with "f", but as you can see (and probably knows, with printing f and s is not always good visible and could be mistaken)

So take "Canine-sates" and we have Hol-landers, people living in the holes of the ground :-)

Either way (vatters of saters of batters): kanina is then linked with hollow tubes.

[The Puzzler]

How about 'boat haven' which is what it sounds like to me, in both aspects, how it sounds and what it was.

English

Etymology

From Middle English boot, bot, boet, boyt, from Old English bāt ("boat"), from Proto-Germanic *baitaz, *baitan ("boat, small ship"), from Proto-Indo-European *bheid- ("to break, split"). Cognate with Old Norse beit ("boat").

Old Norse bātr (whence Icelandic bátur, Norwegian båt), Dutch boot, German Boot, and French bateau are all ultimately borrowings from the Old English word.

I was a bit lazy and didn't read all the posts properly yet so sorry if someone already mentioned it.

Edit: add link http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/boat

Edited November 4, 2012 by The Puzzler

[Van Gorp]

...

So take "Canine-sates" and we have Hol-landers, people living in the holes of the ground :-)

That seems rather strange to me -> people living in holes but at the same time conquesting Rome?

Explanation:

Canine-saten are indeed Hol-land bewoners.

Hol indeed in the meaning of hole, tube (geul) -> a land full of holes (geulen, beken, brooks) from water streams.

Holland, also to be found in North of France :-)

[Abramelin]

Hi Otharus,

FYI

A possibility concerning the Caninefates which comes into my mind, and connection to KANINA and 'konijnen' could be as follows.

Root "Kan" (like in Latin "canna", Spanish "cañón", kano, kanaal, Can-yon, think 'kenien' in our dialect :-) is just pointing to a long hollow tube.

This is prety obvious i think, hence also the name for animals doing just that.

Btw canis: idem dito, hondje in zijn rieten mandje (kanneke) :-)

Mentionning of Caninefates is always thought to be with "f", but as you can see (and probably knows, with printing f and s is not always good visible and could be mistaken)

So take "Canine-sates" and we have Hol-landers, people living in the holes of the ground :-)

Either way (vatters of saters of batters): kanina is then linked with hollow tubes.

The Roman inscriptions mention their name always with an -F- .

And that was many centuries before printing was even invented.

[Abramelin]

Back to the Batavians: could their name not mean something like 'warriors'?

Here's why:

In Germanic paganism, Baduhenna is a goddess. Baduhenna is solely attested by Tacitus' Annals where Tacitus records that a grove in Frisia was dedicated to her, and that near this grove 900 Roman prisoners were killed in 28 CE.

The first part of the goddess' name, Badu-, may be cognate to Proto-Germanic *badwa- meaning "battle." The second portion of the name -henna may be related to -henae, which appears commonly in the names of matrons. Rudolf Simek states that, due to this etymology, Baduhenna appears to be a goddess of war, and points out that sacred groves are commonly associated with the Germanic peoples.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baduhenna

Baduhenna is an obscure Frisian goddess associated with war. The Roman historian Tacitus mentions a wood dedicated to Baduhenna, in which 900 Roman soldiers were slaughtered by Frisians.

The name Baduhenna probably means 'battle goddess'. The first element seems to be related to Germanic *badwa-, battle. The ending -henae is found on names for groups of matrons inscribed on votive altars (such as the Berguiahenae).

http://www.wyrdwords...enna/index.html

http://www.scribd.co...manic-Goddesses

http://books.google....ermanic&f=false

http://bibliotheek.e...nnavolledig.pdf

beat (v.)

O.E. beatan "inflict blows on, thrash" (class VII strong verb; past tense beot, pp. beaten), from P.Gmc. *bautan (cf. O.N. bauta, O.H.G. bozan "to beat"), from PIE root *bhau- "to strike".

http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none

battle (n.)

c.1300, from O.Fr. bataille "battle, single combat," also "inner turmoil, harsh circumstances; army, body of soldiers," from L.L. battualia "exercise of soldiers and gladiators in fighting and fencing," from L. battuere "to beat, to strike".

http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none

batter (v.)

"strike repeatedly, beat violently and rapidly," early 14c., from O.Fr. batre "to beat, strike" (11c., Mod.Fr. battre "to beat, to strike"), from L. battuere "to beat, strike," an old word in Latin, but almost certainly borrowed from Gaulish, from PIE root *bhau- "to strike" (cf. Welsh bathu "beat;" O.E. beadu "battle," beatan "to beat," bytl "hammer, mallet").

http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0

bat (n.1)

"a stick, a club," O.E. *batt "cudgel," perhaps from Celtic (cf. Ir. and Gael. bat, bata "staff, cudgel"), influenced by O.Fr. batte, from L.L. battre "beat;" all from PIE root *bhat- "to strike."

http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none

Tacitus (De origine et situ Germanorum XXIX) described the Batavi as the bravest of the tribes of the area, hardened in the Germanic wars, with cohorts under their own commanders transferred to Britannia. They retained the honour of the ancient association with the Romans, not required to pay tribute or taxes and used by the Romans only for war: "They furnished to the Empire nothing but men and arms", Tacitus remarked.

http://en.wikipedia....(Germanic_tribe)

.

Edited November 4, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

I think some will find the next quite interesting......

The early-medieval use of ethnic names from classical antiquity.

The case of the Frisians

Jos Bazelmans / 2009

1 Introduction

2 A late-Roman population hiatus in the Netherlands coastal region?

3 The survival of the Frisian name

4 Summary and conclusion

Classical and early-medieval sources

References

http://www.josbazelmans.nl/attachments/File/Etniciteit_Friezennaam.pdf

http://rambambashi.wordpress.com/2009/05/15/common-errors-7-the-frisians/

[Van Gorp]

The Roman inscriptions mention their name always with an -F- .

And that was many centuries before printing was even invented.

Indeed inscriptions with 'F', but are these inscriptions found before the first books/manuscripts were found mentionning Caninefates?

[Abramelin]

How about 'boat haven' which is what it sounds like to me, in both aspects, how it sounds and what it was.

English

Etymology

From Middle English boot, bot, boet, boyt, from Old English bāt ("boat"), from Proto-Germanic *baitaz, *baitan ("boat, small ship"), from Proto-Indo-European *bheid- ("to break, split"). Cognate with Old Norse beit ("boat").

Old Norse bātr (whence Icelandic bátur, Norwegian båt), Dutch boot, German Boot, and French bateau are all ultimately borrowings from the Old English word.

I was a bit lazy and didn't read all the posts properly yet so sorry if someone already mentioned it.

Edit: add link http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/boat

Considering the Batavians lived on what Caesar and Tacitus both called an island, it is well possible.

But as far as I know, the Batavians were not known to be seafarers (sea raiders) like the Chaucians, the eastern neighbours of the Frisii at the NW coast of present-day Germany (Eastfriesland).

Well, I guess we all - Van Gorp, Otharus, you and me - have our preferred translations.

I wouldn't be surprized that the Batavians may even have gotten their name from the Romans, and that their name derives from Latin battuere, "to beat, to strike".

They were once respected allies of the Romans.

[Abramelin]

Indeed inscriptions with 'F', but are these inscriptions found before the first books/manuscripts were found mentionning Caninefates?

I can't tell you when they were found (I assume they were found in the 20th century in Voorburg and Rijswijk), but they were almost 2 millennia old.

So older than anything printed.

But the ones who wrote those medieval books did know of what Tacitus and Caesar had written, so I don't think they had made a typo, and meant to write "Cananesates".

[Abramelin]

Van Gorp, I think you will like this one:

I think some will find the next quite interesting......

The early-medieval use of ethnic names from classical antiquity.

The case of the Frisians

Jos Bazelmans / 2009

1 Introduction

2 A late-Roman population hiatus in the Netherlands coastal region?

3 The survival of the Frisian name

4 Summary and conclusion

Classical and early-medieval sources

References

http://www.josbazelm...Friezennaam.pdf

http://rambambashi.w...7-the-frisians/

Although Bazelmans has some objections against the Dunkirk Transgressions, the rest would make a Delahaye happy (and you, lol).

[Van Gorp]

Thnx for being concerned about my happiness Abe. I will certainly have a look at it.

Though, don't need much for a smile, this time man's surname was a good start :-)

[Otharus]

Variety in spelling and diction between the letters of Hidde (1256 CE) and Liko (803 CE) Over de Linden.

I will reply to the other posts later.

[Van Gorp]

Variety in spelling and diction between the letters of Hidde (1256 CE) and Liko (803 CE) Over de Linden.

I will reply to the other posts later.

Hi Otharus,

Among the posts, succes with the other studies :-)

(Or if Abe, Puzzler, any body else has a clue please do) ->

Maybe allready discussed, then just point to the posts

but i was wondering on the following

Is it correct that all the dates of the tales mentionned are derived from the date Atland was sunken (being 2193 BC, mentionned once by Hidde in 1256 AD)?

Liko does not mention it i see.

Have you a view or is there a common explanation, on how the date of Atland sinking has come to Hiddo (could there have been some timekeeping in the family for 3449 years, other texts with refferences passing through ...). Or do i miss something in the text that could explain the way the date was remembered?

[NO-ID-EA]

am enjoying the chronicles of Eri ..Abe , i understand why you mentioned it could have been the sort of book that may have been used to compose oera linda .......the law

to treat others as you would have them treat you , and never to be the ones to invade others territory , but always to come together to defend your own , rings some bells ,

among other things.

the tribe named the agyges , described as an auxiliary force of horsemen affiliated to the og-eag-eis , i wonder if this is where the childish name for horse comes from

here they are called gee-gee's when talking to young kids

Also if this history is true and these people came in a horde from Spain well before the Romans , they could have been the ones to bring back the Coneys (Rabbits)

Edited November 4, 2012 by NO-ID-EA

[Otharus]

For the first time since ages, I made a new video.

Not as good as some of my older ones, but I have to start somewhere to get into the flow again.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7PNucYj4rs[/media]

[The Puzzler]

Hi Otharus,

Among the posts, succes with the other studies :-)

(Or if Abe, Puzzler, any body else has a clue please do) ->

Maybe allready discussed, then just point to the posts

but i was wondering on the following

Is it correct that all the dates of the tales mentionned are derived from the date Atland was sunken (being 2193 BC, mentionned once by Hidde in 1256 AD)?

Liko does not mention it i see.

Have you a view or is there a common explanation, on how the date of Atland sinking has come to Hiddo (could there have been some timekeeping in the family for 3449 years, other texts with refferences passing through ...). Or do i miss something in the text that could explain the way the date was remembered?

I wondered the same thing some posts back actually. Interesting how you've noted the difference in words too.

Edited November 5, 2012 by The Puzzler