Tantalising Testimony

[zoser]

the bridge of a ship or reflections in the windows of a Yacht? Imagiantive, but fairly tenuous, I'm afraid.

oh dear, this is going to lead to another prolonged argument that's going to go on for days now, isn't it.

No not from my perspective. I promise. Put it this way; if it's not ET then no one knows what it is. The options though are extremely tenuous as you suggest.

[badeskov]

I trust you've come to this conclusion after fully reviewing and assessing the information provided in my previous links?

And if you want to bring up that airliner video again, I am still awaiting your response to my last post on the topic.

I don't think anybody can appreciate how much traffic is actually passing through the Bosphorus, queuing up in the Sea of Marmara. It is nothing short of a spectacular sight to behold. I will see if I have some pictures (have been there many times).

Cheers,

Badeskov

Edited November 24, 2012 by badeskov

[booNyzarC]

I don't think anybody can appreciate how much traffic is actually passing through the Bosphorus, queuing up in the Sea of Marmara. It is nothing short of a spectacular sight to behold. I will see if I have some pictures (have been there many times).

Cheers,

Badeskov

I'd be interested in seeing those, though I doubt if it will have much impact on some who seem more than willing to hand wave away anything that doesn't support their ET conclusions.

[DONTEATUS]

I would like to see it just so I dont have to read anymore of this jibberish and make believe. Go on badeskovs post up mate ! Were waiting ! At least it will be real ! Unlike the last 70 years of B.S. Someday we just might get to see the Real Mc-Coy !

[synchronomy]

Good question. The Kumurgaz case is very well supported. Don't forget that the sightings lasted a long time; it should not be regarded as an isolated one off incident.

Well supported?

All I see are indications that it is not an obvious hoax using video manipulation. Something is on video...that's all.

I see absolutely nothing that requires the ETH to be considered.

Nothing.

Zero.

Zilch.

I do see a major indication that this video is being misrepresented...

Dr. Roger Leir is involved.

The "alien implant" surgeon who's one french fry short of a Happy Meal.

Edited November 24, 2012 by synchronomy

[synchronomy]

No not from my perspective. I promise. Put it this way; if it's not ET then no one knows what it is. The options though are extremely tenuous as you suggest.

But...

You seem to be implying that...

"If no one knows what it is...then it must be ET."

[S2F]

But...

You seem to be implying that...

"If no one knows what it is...then it must be ET."

That's the ETH in a nutshell so far.

There has yet to be anything ever presented anywhere that is anything more than unknown at best. While that doesn't rule out ET it also doesn't lend any credence to the idea either. The evidence to push the ETH past the hypothesis stage just isn't there.

[ChrLzs]

I wondered when the Kumburgaz 'case' would raise its ugly head...

..then no one knows what it is.

Well, none of us, perhaps, but at least two people do know.. (cue Twilight zone music) Go on, ask me..

The options though are extremely tenuous as you suggest.

And the most tenuous option is the ETH.

BTW, if you think I'm just chiming in ignorantly, I suggest you spend a bit of time over at ATS and look at the threads on the Kumburgaz incident. While there, you might like to explain the deliberate falsifications by various proponents of the ETH. I'm happy to elaborate, but YOU really should do the legwork first (as you should have done beforehand).

IMNSHO, this is a deliberate hoax perpetrated initially by Yalcin Yalman and at least one assistant. I'm not sure if Akdogan and Maussan are actually aware of the hoax, but they have certainly failed to apply even the most basic form of investigation, the analysis they have supplied is absolute garbage, and they have (deliberately?) not asked Yalman some blindingly obvious questions. What a surprise.. The objects used are probably partially obscured parts of boats or deliberately set up (and torchlit) paraphernalia ( a number of examples have been posted showing how it may have been done). While I am sure it is a hoax, I am not convinced that the objects are all boat segments, despite the title of the thread.

You could start with the following posts (very immodestly chosen..), from the "Infamous Turkey UFO a Yacht?" thread - that entire thread is required reading if you are interested in this topic - note that a couple of participants were Turkish so could assist with translation, and one lived reasonably near to the region.. Sit down with a coffee, wine or beer and try these posts (all mine, sorry!):

Comments on the Duarte report

Some damning issues..

Detailed analysis of the videos Part 1

Detailed analysis of the videos Part 2

Detailed analysis of the videos Part 3

Detailed analysis of the videos Part 4

Detailed analysis of the videos Part 5

Geographical Information

Comments on Tubitak Report (with comments about an alternative translation)

Any questions? Happy to discuss/debate this topic in great detail - but maybe another (existing) thread might be better..

[badeskov]

I'd be interested in seeing those, though I doubt if it will have much impact on some who seem more than willing to hand wave away anything that doesn't support their ET conclusions.

BooNy.

Attached are a few images. These are from the wintertime. but I should have some summertime images as well.

Cheers,

Badeskov

[badeskov]

I'd be interested in seeing those, though I doubt if it will have much impact on some who seem more than willing to hand wave away anything that doesn't support their ET conclusions.

Oops. missed an image...

Cheers,

Badeskov

[booNyzarC]

BooNy.

Attached are a few images. These are from the wintertime. but I should have some summertime images as well.

Cheers,

Badeskov

Oops. missed an image...

Cheers,

Badeskov

Thanks for those Bade. It does establish the fact that there are a lot of ships in the area, and heck did you see the UFO in the daytime shot just off center on the right?

[badeskov]

Thanks for those Bade. It does establish the fact that there are a lot of ships in the area, and heck did you see the UFO in the daytime shot just off center on the right?

Oh man, you are right...hadn't seen that UFO

There are a heck of a lot of ships in that area and just about dusk it gets really crowded. The day time photo is a morning shot. But it can be quite incredible to watch.

From the Turkish/Istanbul Port authorities:

Northwestern Turkey is divided by a complex waterway that connects the Black Sea to the Sea of Marmara and the Aegean Sea. The channel passing between the Black Sea and the Sea of Marmara is named the Istanbul Bogazi, more commonly called the Bosporus. Istanbul is positioned at the south end of the Bosporus. The Sea of Marmara is connected to the Aegean Sea by a channel called the Canakkale Bogazi, also known as the Dardanelles.

The Turkish Straits, comprising the Strait of Canakkale, the Strait of Istanbul and the Sea of Marmara and, are unique in many respects. The very narrow and winding shape of the strait is more a kin to that of the river. It is an established fact that the Turkish Straits are one of the most hazardous, crowded, difficult and potentially dangerous, waterways in the world for marines. All the dangers and obstacles characteristic of narrow waterways are present and acute in this critical sea lane.

The Strait of Istanbul is approximately 16.74 nautical miles long, with an average width of 0.81 nautical miles. It is only 0.378 nautical miles wide at its narrowest. The Straits of Istanbul takes several sharp turns. The ships are bound alter course at least 12 times at these bends. At the narrowest point, Kandilli (700 m), a 45 degree course alteration is required. The current can reach 7-8 knots at this point. At Yenikoy, the necessary course alteration is 80 degrees.

At the above mentioned turns (Kandilli and Yenikoy) where significant course alterations have to be made, the rear and forward sights are totally blocked prior to and during the course alteration. The ships approaching from the opposite direction cannot be seen round these bends.

There is also very heavy ferry traffic in the Strait of Istanbul, which crosses between European and Asiatic sides of the city.

There are two suspension-bridges spanning the Bosphorus which connects Europe and Asia. Istanbul - Bosphorus suspension bridges 3 miles within the Strait connects Europe and Asia. It is 1074 m long between the legs and has a vertical clearance of 64 m over a width of 400 m decreasing to 58 m at each end.

It is really a nasty place and has a lot of traffic and a lot of queuing:

IMPORTANT NOTE FOR TANKERS WITH LOA 250 MTRS OR MORE at Bosphorus strait. Istanbul Traffic Control Station permits only 1 (one) tanker with LOA 250 meters or more to transit Bosphorus Strait between 05.30 and 07.30 hours. The first one on turn is chosen for transit. Tankers waiting in turn are only permitted to transit if they take an escort tug boat for passage, otherwise they are instructed to wait at the outside of Bosphorus until next daylight.

From this site are found some interesting statistics. In March 2012 a total of 3730 registered ships passed through the Bosphorus, which is about 124 ships a day or 5 ships an hour for a 24 hour cycle. And that is only the large ships required to register their passage. Added to that fishing vessels, small transports, tour boats and small ferries.

I'll find some pictures from Bosphorus itself (the others were from the Sea of Marmara), but lets just say that it is a crowded place When you sit in Bebek or Ortakoy just watching the water you really notice a lot of really big ships coming through really often.

From this site:

- to reduce the marine traffic through the Bosphorus and minimize the risks and dangers associated particularly with tankers.

- About 56,000 vessels pass yearly through the Istanbul Strait, among them 10,000 tankers carrying 145 million tons of crude oil.

- International pressure is growing to increase the marine traffic tonnage through the Turkish straits that brings risks for the security of marine navigation during the passage.

- The canal will further help prevent the pollution caused by cargo vessels passing through or mooring in the Sea of Marmara Sea before the southern entrance of the Bosphorus.

Damn it, BooNy now I feel like visiting Istanbul again

[zoser]

But...

You seem to be implying that...

"If no one knows what it is...then it must be ET."

Let me make the question simpler; what is it?

You have all commented and had a go at debunking it, and come up with nothing.

It looks like an ET craft and it is an ET craft; witnesses, filmed and confirmed. No amount of boat or aircraft pictures is going to solve this one. This is ET evidence first class and I'm not going to be afraid of censure for saying so.

If the skeptics want to try and debunk it, it needs careful examination of the footage and the witnesses and an alternative case put forward.

Edited November 25, 2012 by zoser

[Space Commander Travis]

How incredibly complicated and involved these Hoax theories always seem to be. While it might possibly look, with some stretches of imagination, like the bridge of a freight or cruise ship, why is there no other structure visible, e.g. masts and deck gear, and no steaming lights? Unless they were delibrately blanked out by the Hoaxers. it's an imaginative suggestion, and lateral thinking is always commendable, but I really don't think it's entirely persuasive. Still, it's something worth considering, to be sure.

[zoser]

How incredibly complicated and involved these Hoax theories always seem to be. While it might possibly look, with some stretches of imagination, like the bridge of a freight or cruise ship, why is there no other structure visible, e.g. masts and deck gear, and no steaming lights? Unless they were delibrately blanked out by the Hoaxers. it's an imaginative suggestion, and lateral thinking is always commendable, but I really don't think it's entirely persuasive. Still, it's something worth considering, to be sure.

There's too much footage for a start; even the top portion of a cruise ship doesn't resemble what is seen. Don't forget that there is the zoomed out images showing the row of 4 lights. Then there are the witnesses to deal with; and they have to be dealt with for any debunking case to stand up.

Then finally there is the analysis that has been carried out; is it likely that the analysis forgot to examine the cruise ship theory? Hardly likely since that area is popular with such craft.

Debunking attempts can be as creative as the Mona Lisa; if what we are looking at is genuine it makes little difference.

[S2F]

How incredibly complicated and involved these Hoax theories always seem to be.

As opposed to the relative simplicity of alien visitation I suppose?

I understand what you are saying, that overly intricate hoaxes sometimes just don't seem plausible. However the efforts that some will go to to pull off a prank can't be underestimated in my opinion. Pranks are usually 'graded' (by those in the know) based on their intricacy, attention to detail and the amount of people fooled. Hell, look at the crop circle hoaxers, there is an entire community of them, each trying to outdo the others. This is all a game to some people.

I'm not saying that's the case here though as I haven't looked into this case much. Hoaxes, as well as natural phenomena, should always be attempted to be ruled out first with any of these cases.

[ChrLzs]

It looks like an ET craft and it is an ET craft

Let me make it even simpler... You will now point to the KNOWN ET craft that you are using to make this ridiculous claim. Or admit you pulled it out of nowhere.

It could be anything, including a shiny metal plate, illuminated by a torch:

oh wait, the 'real' one has.. a notch!!!! [zoser]But no human could possibly have notched it..[/zoser] .. or used a black marker pen..

And the trawler lights in the other imagery (where you can amazingly *see* the background..) obviously have absolutely nothing to do with the 'plate'.

If the skeptics want to try and debunk it, it needs careful examination of the footage and the witnesses and an alternative case put forward.

Did you read any of the supplied links? WHAT witnesses were there other than Yalcin and his now missing crony? Where are their pictures - after all, you said yourself that this was happeneing over many years, many lengthy sightings.

BTW, Leir was a late addition to the story and was not initially claimed as the photographer of the 09 footage - just another of the many holes in that case. Rather like the 'logic' you just applied to identify it as an ET craft.

It now seems there is zero attempt to make these tantalising posts in any way credible, no fact checking, no logic, nothing of substance whatsoever. Just a good opportunity for the hoaxers like Maussan and Yalman and Akdogan to gain a few more supporters who might pay to go to their future fantasy symposiums or visit Akdogan's money-making museum.

Edited November 25, 2012 by Chrlzs

[Space Commander Travis]

As opposed to the relative simplicity of alien visitation I suppose?

I understand what you are saying, that overly intricate hoaxes sometimes just don't seem plausible. However the efforts that some will go to to pull off a prank can't be underestimated in my opinion. Pranks are usually 'graded' (by those in the know) based on their intricacy, attention to detail and the amount of people fooled. Hell, look at the crop circle hoaxers, there is an entire community of them, each trying to outdo the others. This is all a game to some people.

I'm not saying that's the case here though as I haven't looked into this case much. Hoaxes, as well as natural phenomena, should always be attempted to be ruled out first with any of these cases.

I'm not trying to say it must be Aliens. I'm just trying to consider the "plausible" explanations reasonably, and the Hoax theory is nearly always, in any case except a simple one where it's just a photo or video, almost invariably one of the most complicated explanations. this isn't just a case of one or two photos or videos, after all, it seemed to go on for longer than that and there were other witnesses. Really, if one was trying to put forward the ET explanation, that would actually be much more straightforward; (leaving aside questions of 'how did they get here over the vast distances of space' and so on); that somethig might have been some sort of craft that didn't necessarily come from this planet. The 'Hoax' theory, like many other of the "rational" explanations that are put forward for various cases, often seem to be Ockham's or Occam's razor in reverse; it couldn't possibly be a reasonably simple explanation and it must be something very much more complicated.

[zoser]

I'm not trying to say it must be Aliens. I'm just trying to consider the "plausible" explanations reasonably, and the Hoax theory is nearly always, in any case except a simple one where it's just a photo or video, almost invariably one of the most complicated explanations. this isn't just a case of one or two photos or videos, after all, it seemed to go on for longer than that and there were other witnesses. Really, if one was trying to put forward the ET explanation, that would actually be much more straightforward; (leaving aside questions of 'how did they get here over the vast distances of space' and so on); that somethig might have been some sort of craft that didn't necessarily come from this planet. The 'Hoax' theory, like many other of the "rational" explanations that are put forward for various cases, often seem to be Ockham's or Occam's razor in reverse; it couldn't possibly be a reasonably simple explanation and it must be something very much more complicated.

Quite. Why shouldn't they be visiting? The weight of evidence says that it's actually been happening for thousands of years. It's just that the last 70 appears to have seen a huge acceleration in the number of sightings.

I'm not saying this as a wind up or anything:

I can fully appreciate how difficult it must be when a person has trained themselves into denying unusual phenomena all of their life. That's the problem here; not the evidence and it has been the problem for years on this forum.

One's own psychology needs to be understood and faced. Without that any study into this subject is a complete waste of time.

The idea of 'it can't be true so it isn't'.

All through this thread I have tried to demonstrate how people over the last 70 years have been very brave and in some cases diligent in reporting their experiences often to the point of risking their livelihoods. Many of these cases are the so called classic cases that remain unsolved.

The reactions to these cases by people on this forum has been astounding; from all kinds of weird exotic explanations, to assassination attempts on the credibility of the witnesses, to mass hallucinations.

Psychology is a fascinating thing.

[zoser]

[/size]

Let me make it even simpler... You will now point to the KNOWN ET craft that you are using to make this ridiculous claim. Or admit you pulled it out of nowhere.

It could be anything, including a shiny metal plate, illuminated by a torch:

oh wait, the 'real' one has.. a notch!!!! [zoser]But no human could possibly have notched it..[/zoser] .. or used a black marker pen..

And the trawler lights in the other imagery (where you can amazingly *see* the background..) obviously have absolutely nothing to do with the 'plate'.

Did you read any of the supplied links? WHAT witnesses were there other than Yalcin and his now missing crony? Where are their pictures - after all, you said yourself that this was happeneing over many years, many lengthy sightings.

BTW, Leir was a late addition to the story and was not initially claimed as the photographer of the 09 footage - just another of the many holes in that case. Rather like the 'logic' you just applied to identify it as an ET craft.

It now seems there is zero attempt to make these tantalising posts in any way credible, no fact checking, no logic, nothing of substance whatsoever. Just a good opportunity for the hoaxers like Maussan and Yalman and Akdogan to gain a few more supporters who might pay to go to their future fantasy symposiums or visit Akdogan's money-making museum.

Chris this is just a waste of a post. It offers nothing.

[S2F]

I'm not trying to say it must be Aliens. I'm just trying to consider the "plausible" explanations reasonably, and the Hoax theory is nearly always, in any case except a simple one where it's just a photo or video, almost invariably one of the most complicated explanations. this isn't just a case of one or two photos or videos, after all, it seemed to go on for longer than that and there were other witnesses. Really, if one was trying to put forward the ET explanation, that would actually be much more straightforward; (leaving aside questions of 'how did they get here over the vast distances of space' and so on); that somethig might have been some sort of craft that didn't necessarily come from this planet. The 'Hoax' theory, like many other of the "rational" explanations that are put forward for various cases, often seem to be Ockham's or Occam's razor in reverse; it couldn't possibly be a reasonably simple explanation and it must be something very much more complicated.

Therein is the problem. The ETH has been somehow relegated to a 'simple' answer when the truth is that the ETH glosses over or outright ignores several factors that complicate the theory a hundredfold. It quite literally raises many, many more questions than it answers.

[S2F]

Psychology is a fascinating thing.

Indeed, so is irony.

[zoser]

Indeed, so is irony.

I'm also wondering (objectively) if part of the problem is the idea that 'because we can't achieve it, neither can they'.

In other words a refusal to believe that another race has superior technology. I'm not having a go at anyone here, just interested in the reasons. It's interesting that the hard core skeptics here seem to be staunch advocates of the infallibility of modern ideas.

Just a thought.

[ChrLzs]

Chris this is just a waste of a post. It offers nothing.

Then REPORT the post, rather than waste MORE time posting contentless complaints and avoiding the questions, namely:

1. What is the known ET craft you refer to?

2. Did you read any of the links I supplied?

3. What other witnesses were there, and what evidence have they provided?

4. Was any mention made of Leir when the 09 video was first presented?

And how many times do you have to be told it is ChrLz - that's fonetic for ... Charles..?

[Space Commander Travis]

If we're talking about John Leir, the alien implant expert , (and someone with a name remarkably similar to other well known UFO 'Experts'), if he was not actually involved in the case from the beginning and only jumped aboard at a later date, that might perhaps be a point in favour of its credibility ....