[Merged] Abortion and beliefs

[JGirl]

What I find interesting is (not knowing the OP's religion aside) the Christian agenda regarding abortion has nothing to do with biblical precedent. Before the 1850's or so abortions weren't anything to write home about until the Catholics vs. Protestant ugliness brought it to a head. That and social Darwinism which was directed at anyone thought to "out breed" the better classes of people. The bible says if you cause a woman to lose a baby (doesn't really specify when) you owe the woman five scheckles. They also didn't name their infants until a month after birth because you didn't "waste" a good name on a baby until it was viable. Take also that the Jewish Torah says a baby isn't "born" or alive until it takes its first breath. So in reality the Christian agenda wasn't so much about saving the unborn as making sure the poor didn't outbreed the better classes of people (who could afford doctors to have abortions). Since then it's just as much propaganda to get the flock all worked up to pour more money into the church.

i find this very interesting as well - thanks for posting it

[glorybebe]

she is a he - and he just opens a new thread when he doesn't want to address questions asked of him on this one. he has an agenda. he is not exposing so called scammer abortionists. he is against abortion and is doing whatever he can to put it in a bad light to serve his own belief system.

I could have swore that he said he was a she. OOOPPPSSSS! LOL

[glorybebe]

Not an excuse, it's offensive.

Live by this, if you feel so strong: Don't like abortions? Don't have one.

stay out of everyone's business. Saying the doctors are doing it just for the money and they're 'literally' throwing away live human babies is outrageous and false. NOBODY spends 10 years at medical school just to scam you.

Oh, I agree with you, I just erased the rest of what I was going to say because it was not very nice. The whole abortion debate irks me, especially when people make up their minds and will not look at it from another view.

Women have been having abortions for thousands of years. Of course in the old days they used herbs to rid them of the children, and it is sily for Pro-lifers to not even consider that women still do this. Abortions don't have to be an operation, but, the DNC is more effective.

[ZaraKitty]

she is a he - and he just opens a new thread when he doesn't want to address questions asked of him on this one. he has an agenda. he is not exposing so called scammer abortionists. he is against abortion and is doing whatever he can to put it in a bad light to serve his own belief system.

Agreed. I really would like him to stop.

Oh, I agree with you, I just erased the rest of what I was going to say because it was not very nice. The whole abortion debate irks me, especially when people make up their minds and will not look at it from another view.

Women have been having abortions for thousands of years. Of course in the old days they used herbs to rid them of the children, and it is sily for Pro-lifers to not even consider that women still do this. Abortions don't have to be an operation, but, the DNC is more effective.

If we make abortions illegal women will get life endangering abortions. The rates of abortion will be the same, they will jump down stairs, ask to be hit, take drugs and alcohol and indeed use 'herbs'. It may sound stupid, but those are the measure women will need to take if people like dhole keep on their charade of evil doctors and scammy abortion clinics and convince everyone it's 'safer' for the women to make it illegal.

[aryannatimothy]

That is very unhumane... It is sad hoe people can change towards others and how selfish they can get for these helpless babies whom they stripped off their rights to live. Who knows, one of these babies can have a very important role in the future.

[Beckys_Mom]

Also, there is not an accepted scientific discription of being a "person" but Philosophers have stated (quite correctly in my opinion) "that the newborn doesn’t yet meet their definition of a “person”

I disagree and feel it is morally wrong.. I cannot imagine taking my own little baby boy ( who was born back in May of this year ) into my arms, stare at his little face cooing up at me and killing him.. That is messed up in my opinion

An 8 week old foetus is still part of the womans body and more dependent .. A baby, once born, is no longer part of the womans body, and it can survive much better on its own than an 8 week old foetus .. So killing a baby AFTER it is born is wrong

I would have done anything to save my little girls life, this is why I cannot condone killing a newborn.. Any parent who has lost their child and grieved will agree.. If anyone can take a newborn in their arms, stare it in the face and kill it? Then that in my opinion makes them sick murderers

Edited November 29, 2012 by Beckys_Mom

[glorybebe]

Agreed. I really would like him to stop.

If we make abortions illegal women will get life endangering abortions. The rates of abortion will be the same, they will jump down stairs, ask to be hit, take drugs and alcohol and indeed use 'herbs'. It may sound stupid, but those are the measure women will need to take if people like dhole keep on their charade of evil doctors and scammy abortion clinics and convince everyone it's 'safer' for the women to make it illegal.

What's sad is the attitude towards women who abort or are thinking of aborting. It's like they are sub-human in the eyes of pro-lifers. How many women died in the 60s due to back alley abortions? A coat hanger s what was used in many of the 'operations' and with the attitude that the women deserved what they got...it is just horrible. Women are already suffering eith an unwanted pregnancy why take away everything from them when they are at their lowest?

[Toadie]

This day and age people who don't want children can easily avoid not getting knock up. If someone gets knocked up who didn't want a child well they are idiots maybe they shouldn't be having sex in the first place

[JGirl]

This day and age people who don't want children can easily avoid not getting knock up. If someone gets knocked up who didn't want a child well they are idiots maybe they shouldn't be having sex in the first place

this statement is evidence of your total ignorance of this topic.

[Toadie]

No it is not. If you are living in a society where conception is available you should be able to avoid falling pregnant. On rare case conception fails then that is a different story or if something terrible has happen to you like rape then that is also different. I really don't understand how some females can get pregnant when they are having sex on their own terms. If you don't want to use protection and you also do not want a child then you shouldn't be having sex. Not rocket science

[JGirl]

No it is not. If you are living in a society where conception is available you should be able to avoid falling pregnant. On rare case conception fails then that is a different story or if something terrible has happen to you like rape then that is also different. I really don't understand how some females can get pregnant when they are having sex on their own terms. If you don't want to use protection and you also do not want a child then you shouldn't be having sex. Not rocket science

first of all you claim these people are idiots

do you know them all?

secondly there is no contraception on the market that is 100 percent effective.

my sister in law got pregnant with twins after she had her tubes tied. many women get pregnant while on the pill and condoms are not made of superhuman materials and can break or tear.

so please keep your shortsightedness to yourself.

[Toadie]

The ones that don't use any form of conception in my opinion are or maybe they just lack commonsense.

I know that sometimes it may fail but at least they had commonsense of using conception to begin with

[darkmoonlady]

The failure rate for contraceptives even when properly used is well documented, include with that number the rate of contraception failure due to product failure (antibiotics will sometimes nullify birth control pills, etc), it accounts for a good percentage of abortions.

The real issue here is that those by and large who have a moral objection to abortion do so on religious grounds. That is all well and good for that person's belief system, if they think abortion is wrong, don't have one. For the rest of the population who does not believe that way, it's their freedom, their body. Women have a right to control if they want to reproduce or not. End of story and for those who believe that isn't the case, you don't have a right to decide for others in every other realm, why should reproduction be something controlled by the state?

[Beckys_Mom]

I am both - Pro Life and Pro Choice if that makes sense?

In the UK and Ireland, women know the risks of unprotected sex. If a girl / woman seriously does not want to have any kids, then it is up to her to do what she can to not take the risks.. The UK and Ireland have free contraceptives,, There is also a morning after pill that gives you up to 3 days..it too is free of charge......I have in the past taken the morning after pill, back when I was in my 20's, Gary and I didn't want kids,,I was not ready to take any risk

If a woman is careless and she never thinks to protect herself, and she takes the risk and falls pregnant, she can still abort early..BUT if she doesn't give a hoot to go early and she leaves it much later in the pregnancy and then says - "Take the baby out and kill it, I no longer care for this".. I have no respect for half wits like that .... Reason being, I know there are many women out there, who have had to abort, and most didn't want to, but had to for medical reasons, rape, and other dire situations, that I find most understandable .. This would have been hard for them, It most likely break their hearts..

Yet there are good for nothing women out there that do not give a rats ass for anyone else but themselves, and will abort because they don't give a crap and they wont think much of it.. We know that there are other women who will give their right arm to have a baby, but fail each time, they would love to adopt,,I bet they wish they had the chance to get pregnant and appreciate it more.. It is effing ironic . This in NO WAY, is me telling anyone what to do with their bodies, it is just my opinion

I support any woman who is in dire situations, medical problems or have been victims of rape.. I support their rights to abort as soon as they can..I don't feel it is right to look down on them either

[Beckys_Mom]

The failure rate for contraceptives even when properly used is well documented

If you use contraceptives and suddenly find yourself pregnant, you may wonder why your chosen method of birth control failed to work. The fact is that an overwhelming 53% of unplanned pregnancies occur in women who are using contraceptives. And while you may think that only teenagers and young women experience contraceptive failure, the fact is that the majority of unplanned pregnancies, about three-quarters of them, occur in women over the age of 20, according to an article in the Journal of the American Medical Association. http://womenshealth.about.com/od/birthcontrol/a/contraceptive_failure.htm

My question is .. How do they prove that the contraceptive failed them? Do they run tests ?

[JGirl]

My question is .. How do they prove that the contraceptive failed them? Do they run tests ?

my guess is that the women state that they were on this or that form of contraception at the time they got pregnant.

[Beckys_Mom]

my guess is that the women state that they were on this or that form of contraception at the time they got pregnant.

I have known girls who made the same statement, but were lying to cover their asses ..They didn't want their parents to think they took the risk and went unprotected

[JGirl]

I have known girls who made the same statement, but were lying to cover their asses ..They didn't want their parents to think they took the risk and went unprotected

yes i'm sure this happens often too

bottom line is though that whatever reason or however they found themselves in that situation the right to decide what to do about it belongs to the woman herself.

we can make any judgement we want based on our own beliefs and biases, but we are not the ones who are living it.

[Beckys_Mom]

yes i'm sure this happens often too

bottom line is though that whatever reason or however they found themselves in that situation the right to decide what to do about it belongs to the woman herself.

we can make any judgement we want based on our own beliefs and biases, but we are not the ones who are living it.

True, we are not the ones living it.. I wont ever tell anyone what to do with their own lives.. I may state an opinion, but that's as far as I would go...

I found the reason why there is such a high percentage of contraceptive failure .. It was on the same site I posted previously...

Why are so many women getting pregnant while using contraceptives?

• Failure to follow the instructions for a given method of birth control exactly as directed is a key cause of contraceptive failure. If you're using birth control pills, taking them at exactly the same time every single day greatly reduces any chance of contraceptive failure and unplanned pregnancy. When using condoms as a contraceptive, it's imperative that they're used properly and in good condition. Women who use a diaphragm or cervical cap need to make sure that the cervix is completely covered before having sexual intercourse. IUD users need to check that the device is in place monthly.
  

• Another cause of contraceptive failure occurs when contraceptives are used inconsistently. Forgetting to take just one birth control pill significantly raises your risk of becoming pregnant; forgetting to take more than one oral contraceptive in a month means that you should use an alternative contraceptive for the remainder of that menstrual cycle. Barrier methods such as condoms, cervical caps, and diaphragms have to be used during each and every act of sexual intercourse; forgetting just one time means you might become pregnant. Of course, natural family planning only works when practiced consistently and correctly.
  

• Condoms that break or have even the smallest tear also often led to unplanned pregnancy. Causes of condom damage include improper use, inadequate use of a water-based lubricant, using condoms past the expiration date, improper storage. Jewelry, fingernails, and other objects may create tiny tears in condoms that render them ineffective. If condoms are your choice in contraception, make sure to use a vaginal spermicide to decrease your risk of unplanned pregnancy should condom damage occur.
  

• Contraceptive failure may also happen in women taking certain drugs or herbs. If you're using oral contraceptives check with your doctor and / or pharmacist for any possible drug / herb interactions that may reduce the effectiveness of your birth control pill.
  

• Believing that you are not in your fertile period is a huge mistake that can potentially lead to an unplanned pregnancy. There is no "safe time" of the month, according to researchers from the National Institute of Environmental Health, where they have found that the possibility of pregnancy may occur on almost any day of the month including during menstruation.
  

Source - http://womenshealth....ive_failure.htm

Edited November 29, 2012 by Beckys_Mom