Secret Caves under the Pyramids

[cladking]

I've always heard that the egyptians used those rolling logs to move the giant blocks up limestone ramps.

This might be the most absurd of all Egyptological theories. The need to pass rollers

from the back to the front of sleds would not only require even more men on already

grossly overused ramps but would increase the width of the job requiring wider ramps.

The Egyptians had very little wood and certainly not endless quantities of choice high

grade lumber such as rollers would be. We don't even have any evidence they used

ramps or sleds, which would also require vast amounts of wood, so suggesting rollers

is just cpompounding an absuridity.

One thing's sure; if they used rollers then they'd have to keep the stones moving for-

ward all the time or they would tend to fall backward. You'd need a dozen men on each

stone to pass rollers and several more to sail to Lebanon to acquire more wood.

For absurdity though this theory has a great deal of competition in and out of orthodoxy.

[Golden Duck]

...

Definition of God: The Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe.

Definition of Alien: A creature from outer space.

...

Gods and deities are supernatural. Extraterrestrials are not.

However, just for arguments sake, let's indulge you nonsense. Tell me, if the ancient aliens fled after piling up limestone 4500 years ago, where is the evidence for them? Where are they now? How far could they have travelled?

[LRW]

Gods and deities are supernatural. Extraterrestrials are not.

However, just for arguments sake, let's indulge you nonsense. Tell me, if the ancient aliens fled after piling up limestone 4500 years ago, where is the evidence for them? Where are they now? How far could they have travelled?

No, you're wrong, just like your old buddy kmt_sesh is wrong is his previous assumptions.

Definition of supernatural: 1. Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.

2.

Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces.

3.

Of or relating to a deity.

4.

Of or relating to the immediate exercise of divine power; miraculous.

5.

Of or relating to the miraculous.

Note 3. deity= A God or Goddess

Another definition of supernatural: relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil.

A god or goddess is obviously supernatural in character particularly the ones described in the so called ancient egyptian pantheon, thus in turn if they are described as beings from having originated outside earth, then they are extraterrestrial in character, whether real or not.

You're the ones indulging ancient alien theorists by the way if you accept egyptology, what was being spoken about was the ancient egyptian pantheon in the egyptologists theory, the religon of the ancient egyptians in the theory is rife with belief in ancient alien creator deities, a trait seen worldwide in religons even christianity, which also holds stories of alien intervention aswell, especially in the bible, moses recieving the tablets from a god not of earth (can be described as alien whether real or not) noah being told to build a boat for a flood by alien god, Mary being told by angel (can be described as alien) that she carries son of a god (extraterrestrial btw, whether real or not) in her womb.

You seem to lack knowledge of the subject matter, you don't seem familiar with occult given the drivel seen in your posts.

Also just a question, who do you think made you as a human? a god ? nature? who made nature? religons are created to answer that, with the creator deity usually being described as extraterrestrial supernatural being that created everything, the ancient egyptian pantheon being no different in that regard. Saying you're atheist or agnostic is just another way of saying you don't know about who made the universe.

Religons are created to at least try to understand origin of mankind, with most common origin given as extraterrestrial supernatural created everything etc. People who believe in such religons are ancient alien theorists.

Also, since some extraterrestrials characters are supernatural, then with all their supernatural powers, some are considered to be invisible yet still omnipresent, take the christian god for example, an extraterrestrial invisible omnipresent force that made mankind according to exoteric christianity.

Proof? evidence? you should ask christians for proof of their supernatural extraterrestrial god, whatever you say to them, they still won't believe you, because they have faith, that makes them ancient alien theorists theory.

To consider ancient aliens theorists are fringe is utter stupidity and shows a lack of knowledge on the subject matter, billions have religon, billions believe in an extraterrestrial omnipresent supernatural being, the creator etc, the belief is widespread in monotheism, Its hardly fringe, even many in academic world are christian, thus they are ancient alien theorists.

Alien character takes many forms, you are thinking too much of star trek type alien characters, you're not going to make them the monopoly of the debate, no matter how much you try, not everyone is brainwashed by hollywood.

[Golden Duck]

...

A god or goddess is obviously supernatural in character particularly the ones described in the so called ancient egyptian pantheon, thus in turn if they are described as beings from having originated outside earth, then they are extraterrestrial in character, whether real or not.

...

Clearly you have no interest beyond confirming your own delusions.

[LRW]

Clearly you have no interest beyond confirming your own delusions.

Judging by your post, you lack the intelligence to understand as to what exactly defines a GOD that in the mythology of the people is clearly defined as having an extraterrestrial origin.

Its not surprising though, given your general lack of knowledge regarding such matters and in turn your callous reaction to the topic.

[Dontlisten2me]

A war has been started on grammar. I don't know ancient Egyptians vocabulary/urban dictionary.

But I know a guy who will call God a guy.

Edited December 22, 2012 by kampz

[Golden Duck]

Judging by your post, you lack the intelligence to understand as to what exactly defines a GOD that in the mythology of the people is clearly defined as having an extraterrestrial origin.

Its not surprising though, given your general lack of knowledge regarding such matters and in turn your callous reaction to the topic.

I'm concise, so that people understand. If you read about supernatural mythology in any depth you can clearly see how it differs from the extra-terrestrial lore.

You however are not even argumentative - just merely militantly contradictory.

[kmt_sesh]

Directly contradicting yourself again, how on earth they made you a moderator is quite bizarre. No doubt you will try and use your moderating status to worm your way out of your contradiction.

Definition of God: The Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe.

Definition of Alien: A creature from outer space.

Gods and Goddesses especially the ones from the ancient egyptian pantheon have an alien/extraterrestrial character.

Since the ancient egyptians were believing in gods and goddesses (whether real or not) makes them ancient alien theorists in egyptology research.

For someone with a museum position and so called knowledge of ancient egyptians, you sure like to contradict yourself lol.

It would be interesting to see your reaction to ancients if they were still alive and told you their creator deities came not from earth but from outside it.

Please be more mindful of your comments about Moderators. You're heading down a bad road by trying to make this personal. Do not make this personal.

There is no such thing as an ancient alien "theorist." A theory, when properly employed, describes an argument based on extant evidence that anyone of similar education and training can review based on the same evidence, and verify or enhance. Nothing in the ancient-alien camp fits this category because none of it survives scrutiny.

You've now spent several posts quoting my same lines from my single post. Going forward I suggest you collect your thoughts and compose a single, coherent response.

I'm not quite sure how far to take this dialogue with you because you seem more interested in making snippy comments than in discussing the merits of the debate, but I am always open to dialogue. All I ask is that you dial it down. The fact that I'm a Moderator should be irrelevant to you. You are required to remain civil to all posters, whoever they may be.

But to the point, your definition of "God" is a good one for the Judeo-Christian Yahweh but is not well suited to ancient Egyptian deities. Nor to the deities of most ancient Mediterranean peoples, for that matter. For example, these deities were often not all powerful, and they were far from perfect. Look into the Negative Confession in the Book of the Dead, as one example. How are deities supposed to be perfect when the Egyptians believed it was so easy to lie to them and fool them?

There is no one, single creation myth in ancient Egypt because it depended on where in the Nile Valley you lived. If you lived in the far north, you believed Atum sprung from a flower that had sprouted from a mound of mud which had emerged from the waters of chaos. Nearby, in the region of Memphis, you might have believed creation occurred because Ptah simply spoke it into being. If you lived far south, you believed Khnum formed people on his potter's wheel.

Obviously, none of this is remotely connected to space aliens. The Egyptians left us not a single clue to believe otherwise. I would suggest turning off Ancient Aliens and picking up a few good history books.

I would also suggest more concrete examples toward your agenda. You're speaking in generalities. For example, you say Amun-Re was an extraterrestrial deity and because the Egyptians worshiped him, they believed in aliens. First, then, present the evidence you feel would show Amun-Re as an "extraterrestrial deity" (I'm not even sure what that term is supposed to mean). Next, present evidence that the Egyptians believed Amun-Re was an alien.

There have been many volumes written on the god Amun-Re alone, so you have no shortage of research material to delve into. Go ahead and get started, but don't return to me with generic statements, and please do watch your step with the personal remarks. You don't want to go there.

Thanks.

[LRW]

I'm concise, so that people understand. If you read about supernatural mythology in any depth you can clearly see how it differs from the extra-terrestrial lore.

You however are not even argumentative - just merely militantly contradictory.

*Snip*

On that note, i don't want to converse with you on the topic, its like conversing with a sheep.

But to the point, your definition of "God" is a good one for the Judeo-Christian Yahweh but is not well suited to ancient Egyptian deities. Nor to the deities of most ancient Mediterranean peoples, for that matter. For example, these deities were often not all powerful, and they were far from perfect. "extraterrestrial deity" (I'm not even sure what that term is supposed to mean).

.

*Snip* So, please when you are replying to one of my posts, don't use that as leverage, if anything i believe it makes you less credible on the topic. Thats my opinion by the way.

You now say the ancient deities described in the so called ancient egyptian pantheon and deities from mediterranean are not all that powerful, well i'll disagree with you on that, i believe they were powerful deities and powerful abilities were attributed to them.

I knew that you would try to give Amun or Amun-Ra an earthly origin in the mythology. Which again i'll disagree with, because their ancient mythology and creation myth was based around the cosmos. The egyptologists are only foolishly guessing their mythology and still know very little about it. The general consensus mainstream creation myth by egyptologists is given as a "lifeless sea from which 8 primordial deities sprang from" such a sea could never be considered an earth, when the sun is being described as having descended from such a primordial river, therefore the beings that sprang from it could be considered to be of an extraterrestrial character whether fiction or not, because earth is not a sea its a planet, also in the consensus mythology Amun sprang to life originally from that sea and later became to be represented as the sun god Amun-Ra. He is a transcendent deity, transcendence refers to the aspect of God's nature and power which is wholly independent of and removed from the material universe. In other words extraterrestrial.

You also say in your post, you're not sure what extraterrestrial means, of course you don't because you are ignorant towards the topic. You attribute everything about the topic extraterrestrial to one show seen on history channel, "Ancient Aliens", i don't believe everything they say, also don't be go assuming what i read or don't read.

You say the ancient mediterranean deities were not powerful, that has to be the most foolish comment i have yet seen on UM.

They were incredibly powerful deities, whole armies died for them.

Ares.

Zeus.

It might be all fun and games and fairytales to the likes of you, but to the people who worshipped them, it was anything but fun and games, people spilled blood for them. Thats how powerful their beliefs in them were.

*Snip*

Edited December 23, 2012 by kmt_sesh
Removed unnecessary personal remarks. Do not attack posters.

[Dontlisten2me]

What do you really mean?

[Golden Duck]

Going from what i have read from your posts, you know next to nothing about supernatural mythology, its construction, its esoteric nature and powerful metaphors.

On that note, i don't want to converse with you on the topic, its like conversing with a sheep.

...

Wow! You really told me!

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

What do you really mean?

Judging by form, he wants you to think something of his post, and either agree with him (which is good from his POV) or disagree with him (which makes you an idiot from his POV).

Happily, by keeping things open-ended he loses nothing and can easily say you misunderstood him.

[Harte]

Judging by your post, you lack the intelligence to understand as to what exactly defines a GOD that in the mythology of the people is clearly defined as having an extraterrestrial origin.

Considering that the Ancient Egyptians knew absolutely nothing of any place that might be something other than terrestrial, I'd love to see any real reference you can give that would indicate that the Egyptians thought their gods came from "elsewhere."

To my knowledge, just like other cultures of the time, they thought their gods were from here, given they created the "here."

Harte

[LRW]

Considering that the Ancient Egyptians knew absolutely nothing of any place that might be something other than terrestrial,

*Snip*

To assume they did not know anything other than terrestrial is again an act of stupidity *Snip*

They knew much more than just the terrestrial, because they observed the night sky and its stars (the extraterrestrial). The platform that they built their religon around.

They also observed the sun (extraterrestrial) and attributed its qualities to their deities.

Edited December 23, 2012 by kmt_sesh
Removed unnecessary personal remarks. Do not attack posters.

[DKO]

*Snip*

To assume they did not know anything other than terrestrial is again an act of stupidity, following in the same type of garbage posting that kmt_sesh and Mangnoze indulge in.

They knew much more than just the terrestrial, because they observed the night sky and its stars (the extraterrestrial). The platform that they built their religon around.

They also observed the sun (extraterrestrial) and attributed its qualities to their deities.

They might not have realised all those stars were 'out there', maybe they thought of them as a sort of ceiling above us.

Edited December 23, 2012 by kmt_sesh

[Likely Guy]

To assume they did not know anything other than terrestrial is again an act of stupidity, following in the same type of garbage posting that kmt_sesh and Mangnoze indulge in.

Of course the ancient Egyptians knew of the sun, the moon and the night time sky. That's extraterrestrial. But when someone says 'extraterrestrials', that invokes aliens (to the earth) which the proof thereof is entirely lacking.

Perhaps you could take some time to provide some proof of alien intervention?

[Harte]

They might not have realised all those stars were 'out there', maybe they thought of them as a sort of ceiling above us.

That pretty much nails it, especially when you consider the stars were created by the same gods.

The first god arose from the formless earth itself - the first bit of earth to rise above water - the ben-ben.

No stories about gods "coming down from the sky" in ancient times.

Obviously, the Egyptians had no idea whatsoever that the little lights in the sky weren't hanging up there just out of reach.

It is utterly ignorant to postulate that they had some idea of what they were looking at when they saw any heavenly body.

Almost as ignorant as thinking some posters here at UM have any idea what it is that they are claiming.

Harte

Edited December 23, 2012 by Harte

[cladking]

No stories about gods "coming down from the sky" in ancient times.

Really!!! I couldn't count the number of times they spoke of descending gods and flying boats.

1970a. Wherewith shall N. be caused to fly?

1970b (N. 758-759). Then let there be brought to thee ------ ḥnw-boat, built by Mw-ḥn,

1970c. that thou mayest fly therewith, that thou mayest fly therewith,

Obviously, the Egyptians had no idea whatsoever that the little lights in the sky weren't hanging up there just out of reach.

I believe this is nonsense. These people didn't invent the calender by chance. They needed

rto know the paths of the stars and to be able to accurately measure time.

Say what you will but there is some evidence for alien involvement. No, I seriously doubt aliens

built the pyramids but there's better evidence for the existence of aliens than there is for most

of the quaint Egyptological assumptions. "The past" is a very long time and suggesting there

couldn't have been any alien contact during those tens of thousands of years is pretty presump-

tuous. Why do people jump all over orthodox assumptions as givens even when they're illogical

but dismiss everything else even when evidence exists?

[kmt_sesh]

I remind all posters to remain civil when interacting with one another. Ridicule will not be tolerated. Repeated disruptive behavior will be dealt with.

Address a poster's argument and the points he or she is making—but do not attack the poster.

Thank you.

kmt_sesh

[Harte]

Really!!! I couldn't count the number of times they spoke of descending gods and flying boats.

1970a. Wherewith shall N. be caused to fly?

1970b (N. 758-759). Then let there be brought to thee ------ ḥnw-boat, built by Mw-ḥn,

1970c. that thou mayest fly therewith, that thou mayest fly therewith,

I should have said coming from the sky. As in originating from.

I mean, yeah, the Sun sets, right?

I believe this is nonsense. These people didn't invent the calender by chance. They needed

rto know the paths of the stars and to be able to accurately measure time.

Knowing these paths does not require knowing you are looking at another Sun or another Earth. They are just lights to the Egyptians.

Say what you will but there is some evidence for alien involvement.

"What I will" say is, no there's not.

"The past" is a very long time and suggesting there

couldn't have been any alien contact during those tens of thousands of years is pretty presump-

tuous.

While that is true, it is untrue that anybody has made the claim you stated.

What is claimed is that there exists not a shred of evidence for it. Therefore, it is just folly to believe it.

Why do people jump all over orthodox assumptions as givens even when they're illogical

but dismiss everything else even when evidence exists?

Because the evidence doesn't exist.

Harte

[Golden Duck]

Is "Cool Waters" the opposite of "Chaotic Waters"?

[kmt_sesh]

You now say the ancient deities described in the so called ancient egyptian pantheon and deities from mediterranean are not all that powerful, well i'll disagree with you on that, i believe they were powerful deities and powerful abilities were attributed to them.

In all reality it doesn't matter a bit what you believe. It doesn't matter what I believe, either. All that matters is what the ancient peoples themselves recorded about their deities, and how they could or could not interact with them. I see you entirely glossed over my suggestion to review the Negative Confession in the Book of the Dead. Specifically, it's part of what's been designated Spell 125. That example alone reinforces the clear belief in the ancient mind that the gods were quite fallible.

Your own example of Zeus works against you. Pretty pictures don't prove a point. Research does. I suggest you engage in it, and ardently so. You'd probably find it enjoyable, as I have. No one doubts the power of a god like Zeus in the ancient mind, but that's a far cry from describing him as perfect and all powerful. In point of fact, Zeus was a horny lech; browbeaten by his wife, Hera; bellicose to a fault; and, like all deities of the Greek pantheon, jealous of mortals. Read the Iliad and see for yourself how easily fooled Zeus was by his own wife in the tale. Read about how the gods bickered and schemed against one another as they took up sides between the Greeks and Troy.

My characterization of Zeus is not based on my opinion or beliefs, by the way. It's based on what the ancient Greeks themselves wrote about Zeus.

I knew that you would try to give Amun or Amun-Ra an earthly origin in the mythology. Which again i'll disagree with, because their ancient mythology and creation myth was based around the cosmos. The egyptologists are only foolishly guessing their mythology and still know very little about it. The general consensus mainstream creation myth by egyptologists is given as a "lifeless sea from which 8 primordial deities sprang from" such a sea could never be considered an earth, when the sun is being described as having descended from such a primordial river, therefore the beings that sprang from it could be considered to be of an extraterrestrial character whether fiction or not, because earth is not a sea its a planet, also in the consensus mythology Amun sprang to life originally from that sea and later became to be represented as the sun god Amun-Ra. He is a transcendent deity, transcendence refers to the aspect of God's nature and power which is wholly independent of and removed from the material universe. In other words extraterrestrial.

The waters of chaos was not the earth, no. The creation myth of Atum from Heliopolis, regarding the mound of mud rising from the waters, describes in very loose terms how the world began. It does not concern outer space. And the entire Ennead (nine gods, actually) did not arise from the waters of chaos—only Atum did. In the myth he self-engendered the next pair of deities, who gave birth to the next deities, and so on. This is Ancient Egypt 101. The ancient Egyptians themselves recorded this account in their religion.

If you wish to consider an extraterrestrial nature for the Egyptian gods, that is your right. However, the ancient Egyptians themselves considered no such thing. Their world was centered on the Nile Valley, and they placed the creation of the world right there.

For the sake of clarity, it is not Amun who rose from the waters of chaos but the much-older god Atum. You might be confusing them. Amun was a god of little repute and no great importance beyond the Theban region until the Middle Kingdom, and his veneration as the state god was not fixed until the New Kingdom. Amun appears in the Pyramid Texts of the Old Kingdom, as I recall, but as a minor deity.

It wasn't until much later that the aspect of Re was attached to Amun. This was a means by the Theban royalty to make their personal god, Amun, more appealing to everyone else in the land of Egypt—and most people living beyond the Theban region would not have known Amun until the Theban kings elevated him. Combining Amun with Re, the latter of whom was known by all Egyptians and was much older in their pantheon, was a means to popularize Amun. And it worked.

You also say in your post, you're not sure what extraterrestrial means, of course you don't because you are ignorant towards the topic. You attribute everything about the topic extraterrestrial to one show seen on history channel, "Ancient Aliens", i don't believe everything they say, also don't be go assuming what i read or don't read.

I respectfully ask that you pay closer attention when reading other people's posts. I've noticed this tendency of yours. Do not misrepresent what others have written. In this case, for instance, I did not say I wasn't sure of the meaning of "extraterrestrial." I was having some fun with your term "extraterrestrial deity." Go back and review the relevant posts, if you need to.

It's clear you're obtaining much of your information from Ancient Aliens or at least from media of the same repute. As far as that goes, Ancient Aliens is little more than a tiresome regurgitation of the entire ancient-alien falderal churned out in half-baked, nonsensical books by the likes of Erich von Däniken. The same flotsam clutters the internet. As I always say, consider the source. Garbage in, garbage out.

You say the ancient mediterranean deities were not powerful, that has to be the most foolish comment i have yet seen on UM.

They were incredibly powerful deities, whole armies died for them.

Arguably very few wars in ancient times had much of anything to do with the deities of one side or the other. In fact, when an ancient power conquered a lesser state, rarely did the greater power require the lesser to change their religious beliefs. Egypt did not. Hatti did not. Assyria did not. Persia did not.

Ancient war was mostly about acquiring natural resources and greater territory, as well as defending the home front. And of course a lot of it had to to with the egos and desires of ancient monarchs whose power was such that most modern people today couldn't comprehend it.

The same can't be said for religions in relatively modern times. I can guarantee you with utmost confidence, far more people have died in the name of the Christian God.

<<Image Snips>>

[Big Bad Voodoo]

I believe this is nonsense. These people didn't invent the calender by chance. They needed

rto know the paths of the stars and to be able to accurately measure time.

...

They sure seen time the same as we today. They also sleep 8 hours. In fact ancient invented our calendar. In Mesopotamia.

First calendars were lunar calendars. Every 28 days they saw full moon so they ask why. So they set calendar. Moon calendar. I think oldest dates 10 000 BC. (?)

Then they set star calendar and sun calendar. For crops. For navigation. I ancient books we ofetn read : "when orion is rising."

Then all folklore stories and sayings are same in every corner of the world in essence. Because they are based on observations.

Then 1st sophisticated calendar was set in Babylon. 60 based system.

60 system based time because it can be diveded with 12 months and 30 days,lowest number that can be divde with both.

They have had 12 months plus additional 1. So 13. (?)

7th day 14th 21, 28th day were unlucky days to them. So that days they didnt want to do anything.Hint- Beging of weeks.

20 day in month was lucky day. Why? Because it was 49 day of previos month. 7x7 =49.

Shubatum was fullmoon day Hebrews took it as hsabat.

Then Greek and Romans took it.Then Julian Ceaser reform -ever 4 years one day add.

Early Romans have 10 months starting from march because of spring equinociue didnt have january and february...late 12 and 13 month called mercenery because thats when you will get paid.

In 528 AD Gregorian chatolic reform calendar.

Only mystery to me in ancient messuring of time is Mesopotamia is Sars,unit of 3600....How they come about and how they were used in Sumerian king list.

[+DieChecker]

In 4700 years the cave might have accumulated hundreds of tons of bat guano.

You might be noticed hauling it out.

Your non-sequitor post has me off balance Clad....

[+DieChecker]

Speaking of cats what about the cheetah? Isn't there something strange with every cheetahs DNA? Weren't cheetahs pets? Did they keep cheetah kennels and that's why there's barely any variation in their DNA and the other ones got killed that were different? They kept the nice cheetahs reproducing?

Cheetahs are suspected to have been invovlved in a bottleneck event where only a couple hundred survived and thus their genetic diversity is very limited. And that would have happened a million plus years ago, so humans were not involved.

Cheetahs take well to domestication. They are almost as trainable and affectionate as dogs. I used to live next to some cheetah handlers in southern oregon that worked at the Wildlife Safari in Winston OR (Where I went to High School). They have one of the best captive cheetah breeding programs in the world there, AFAIK.

http://www.wildlifesafari.net/cur/cheetah_breeding_program.html

The Egyptians definately kept them as pets. Probably many other middle eastern/ Persian rulers also. The middle east used to be a large part of the cheetahs ancient range.