Aristotle against existence of Atlantis? No!

[Proclus]

So if Aristotle didn't disprove it... it must exist?

Ah well, please go one step back, think twice, and you will see, that I already agree with you.

It's only ... it was always told that Aristotle etc. etc., so it's small but nice news.

Nothing more :-)

[Hasina]

I always read that Plato made it up, but we all know that can't be true cause why would he make it up? Not like we don't make up fictional places today and pretend those are real too.

Edited January 1, 2013 by Hasina

[Proclus]

I always read that Plato made it up, but we all know that can't be true cause why would he make it up? Not like we don't make up fictional places today and pretend those are real too.

Well, if you are a movie maker or poet or a comedian or politician ...

... or a philosopher like Plato with some notions which look strange (invented) to our modern view but are not invented since Plato really believed them himself? Such as cyclical history? Or an Egypt of an age of more than 10000 years? On the basis of such wrong notions can a story evolve which is meant to be true, but isn't exactly true, but could have a distorted kernel of truth. That's the point.

And no, I do not claim to have the answer. It's only an opening for a beginning of a search ...

[Hasina]

Well, if you are a movie maker or poet or a comedian or politician ...

... or a philosopher like Plato with some notions which look strange (invented) to our modern view but are not invented since Plato really believed them himself? Such as cyclical history? Or an Egypt of an age of more than 10000 years? On the basis of such wrong notions can a story evolve which is meant to be true, but isn't exactly true, but could have a distorted kernel of truth. That's the point.

And no, I do not claim to have the answer. It's only an opening for a beginning of a search ...

Well, if you are a movie maker or poet or a comedian or politician ...

... or a philosopher like Plato with some notions which look strange (invented) to our modern view but are not invented since Plato really believed them himself? Such as cyclical history? Or an Egypt of an age of more than 10000 years? On the basis of such wrong notions can a story evolve which is meant to be true, but isn't exactly true, but could have a distorted kernel of truth. That's the point.

And no, I do not claim to have the answer. It's only an opening for a beginning of a search ...

I get your point, ask questions cause you're never sure of the answer.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Proclus,

Im very short on time so I will be qucik.

We have 1/5 of Aristoteles work. And most of it is notes for teaching. That wasnt for public.

But books he wrote for public are missing.

So we dont know much about what he thought. Even this 1/5 influenced our civilization at it best.

I think that would be interesting thread for itself. Missing Aristotele dialogues.

But this is also interesting and I see you and cormac right about some things.

I also dont understand what kind of evidence we must look in genetics as evidence for Atlantis.

Also cormac wasnt right when said that Plato was first and last.

Kmt sesh on another hand wasnt right when said that Minoans probably inspired Plato.

What could probably inspired Plato was Helike which was destroyed when Plato have had 50 years.

Interestingly before we discover Helike again in 20 century we thought on it as another myth. So this could replace Troy if one doesnt like it as example when myth become reality.

Also Plato was historian.

Also I didnt notice where Aristotele spoke about land beyond pillars.

Edited January 1, 2013 by the L

[kmt_sesh]

I need to remind certain posters at this point not to make it personal. Do not make remarks about other posters and what you think they know or don't know. Discuss only the relevant points. I will keep an eye on this thread and will remove personal remarks from posts, if I feel it's necessary.

Thank you.

[kmt_sesh]

...

Kmt sesh on another hand wasnt right when said that Minoans probably inspired Plato.

What could probably inspired Plato was Helike which was destroyed when Plato have had 50 years.

Interestingly before we discover Helike again in 20 century we thought on it as another myth. So this could replace Troy if one doesnt like it as example when myth become reality.

Also Plato was historian.

...

I freely admit the Minoan connection is purely speculative. Perhaps I should've made that more clear in my post, so I'm glad you brought it up. The theory is not mine but something with which numerous historians have toyed down through the decades.

Helike is certainly another possibility, and it's plausible because of its proximity to Athens (it was in the northern Peloponnese) and, perhaps more importantly, its proximity in time to Plato. Helike appears to have been destroyed in the fourth century BCE (Plato's own time), while Thera was destroyed in the seventeenth century BCE.

I mention the Minoans only because certain other key aspects of the allegory fit well with Plato's descriptions therein. The kingdom that was Atlantis was supposed to have been very influential throughout the Mediterranean and was supposed to have been a great power. This does not describe Helike but it's a perfect fit for the Minoans, whose thalassocracy dominated at least the Aegean and much of the eastern Mediterranean in the Late Bronze Age.

Proclus has mentioned the Minoan frescoes known from the same period in the Hyksos centers of the Egyptian Delta. I think he's trying to make more of this than he needs to. The connection is indeed interesting, but Minoan material culture has been found in archaeological contexts all over the eastern Mediterranean world. In fact, its material culture is known to some extent in Egypt, primarily in the form of ceramic vessels, from dates preceding the Delta frescoes. Obviously the Minoans interacted with other peoples extensively, and influenced trade patterns and commerce, for a long stretch of time.

For all we know, it was a mix of peoples and events that inspired Plato: the Minoans, Helike, and others. But we're unlikely ever to know with certainty.

Plato was not an historian. He did not write history, nor was he interested in history just for the sake of it. Plato wrote philosophy. There's a good reason Plato is not regarded as an historian by modern scholars in the academic community.

[cormac mac airt]

Proclus,

Im very short on time so I will be qucik.

We have 1/5 of Aristoteles work. And most of it is notes for teaching. That wasnt for public.

But books he wrote for public are missing.

So we dont know much about what he thought. Even this 1/5 influenced our civilization at it best.

I think that would be interesting thread for itself. Missing Aristotele dialogues.

But this is also interesting and I see you and cormac right about some things.

I also dont understand what kind of evidence we must look in genetics as evidence for Atlantis.

Also cormac wasnt right when said that Plato was first and last.

Kmt sesh on another hand wasnt right when said that Minoans probably inspired Plato.

What could probably inspired Plato was Helike which was destroyed when Plato have had 50 years.

Interestingly before we discover Helike again in 20 century we thought on it as another myth. So this could replace Troy if one doesnt like it as example when myth become reality.

Also Plato was historian.

Also I didnt notice where Aristotele spoke about land beyond pillars.

Let's take these two items in reverse order. First, I didn't say Plato was the first and last to mention Atlantis. I said that along a line of individuals who were claimed to have passed the story on, from Solon to Plato, Plato was the only one to actually mention Atlantis himself. There has never been any evidence found to substantiate the claim that Solon, nor any of the others between him and Plato, actually ever heard the story of Atlantis. All there is, is Plato's say so. That's not something on which to base a valid argument.

As to archaeogenetics we have a pretty good handle on what genetic haplogroups of humans migrated through time into certain areas and where many subgroups of those major haplogroups originated. NONE of which are in evidence as having originated anywhere near a now submerged landmass near the Straits of Gibraltar nor to have originated in southern Iberia/northwest Africa. The closest haplogroups, in time, to Plato's location are still over 500 miles away around the border of Spain and France c.8000 BC, with the earliest sites of La Draga and Mas d'Is dating to between c.5600 and c.5200 BC. Neither dates of which could be used to validate, even remotely, the existance of Atlantis c.9600 BC. For something as large and as well populated as Plato's Atlantis was claimed to have been, it should have left a genetic fingerprint of its existance to some extent in the NW Africa/Southern Spain area. The fact that no such evidence of same exists is just another hole in the "Atlantis was real" theory.

cormac

Edited January 2, 2013 by cormac mac airt

[The Puzzler]

Oh, I like this multi-quote facility in this forum! :-)

Right, but even more convincing is to look on Plato's philosophy of cyclical time and the Greeks' notion of Egypt's history.

Then it becomes clear: It is meant to be real, but the Greeks simply screw up the knowledge on far-away history.

Thanks. It may surprise Atlantis skeptics, but the "Trireme" thing is no objection against the existence of Atlantis.

Hm, not only Atlantis searchers, also Atlantis skeptics should apply historical-critical thinking.

And then your skeptical list becomes ... empty.

There are not only Atlantis searcher crackpots, there are also Atlantis denier crackpots, aren't there?

Well, there is MUCH reason to assume that Plato speaks seriously when it comes to Atlantis,

but maybe you search for the wrong thing? I suggest considering the historical context.

Like with the Triremes. Looking 9000 years before is simply missing the point.

Only crackpots do this.

I like most the L's comments, they are so constructive!

There is e.g. the "Columbus passage" (my naming): De caelo II 14 297b-298a.

http://classics.mit.... On the heavens

(You have to scroll down to 14 and a bit farther)

And you are right: In contrary to Plato's works, much of Aristotle's works are lost.

Finally, someone who speaks the most sense I've heard on here in a long time. I agree Plato's belief in cyclical time is the key to the timeframe. I have much reason to assume Plato is speaking seriously when it comes to Atlantis. Happy New Year.

Edited January 2, 2013 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

I need to remind certain posters at this point not to make it personal. Do not make remarks about other posters and what you think they know or don't know. Discuss only the relevant points. I will keep an eye on this thread and will remove personal remarks from posts, if I feel it's necessary.

Thank you.

You do that kmt. Happy New Year.

[kmt_sesh]

You do that kmt. Happy New Year.

Happy New Year, Puzzler.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

The theory is not mine but something with which numerous historians have toyed down through the decades.

Plato was not an historian. He did not write history, nor was he interested in history just for the sake of it. Plato wrote philosophy. There's a good reason Plato is not regarded as an historian by modern scholars in the academic community.

Sure he wasnt historians in modern sense. But in certain sense all men are historians. Who could record more and precise accounts about your family perhaps, you or some historian who would try to describe you from outside? Even interviewing some members of your family. My bets goes on you. And not because you have traits of historian but because its logic. Ofcourse one must be idiot if doesnt know more about his family then person from outside circle. Its simple analogy.

But use others examples. Who can tell exact situation at your working place, you or journalists? Ofcourse historian would gather different informations from different accounts, people, even consulting with other historians, archaeologists and so on. But thats what modern historians do. Not those in Greece.

Im sure that you know best what happened in place where you grew up then any historian. Especially now when your childhood is in distant.

History work as hisory writing works. At time of Plato that was how things works. Its up on us to understand him what he tried to tell us.

About Minoans, I wouldnt agree with those historians because Thera eruption didnt wiped out Minoans. Except Akrotiri. They continued with their lifes 200 years after.

On another hand Helike was wiped out.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Let's take these two items in reverse order. First, I didn't say Plato was the first and last to mention Atlantis. I said that along a line of individuals who were claimed to have passed the story on, from Solon to Plato, Plato was the only one to actually mention Atlantis himself. There has never been any evidence found to substantiate the claim that Solon, nor any of the others between him and Plato, actually ever heard the story of Atlantis. All there is, is Plato's say so. That's not something on which to base a valid argument.

As to archaeogenetics we have a pretty good handle on what genetic haplogroups of humans migrated through time into certain areas and where many subgroups of those major haplogroups originated. NONE of which are in evidence as having originated anywhere near a now submerged landmass near the Straits of Gibraltar nor to have originated in southern Iberia/northwest Africa. The closest haplogroups, in time, to Plato's location are still over 500 miles away around the border of Spain and France c.8000 BC, with the earliest sites of La Draga and Mas d'Is dating to between c.5600 and c.5200 BC. Neither dates of which could be used to validate, even remotely, the existance of Atlantis c.9600 BC. For something as large and as well populated as Plato's Atlantis was claimed to have been, it should have left a genetic fingerprint of its existance to some extent in the NW Africa/Southern Spain area. The fact that no such evidence of same exists is just another hole in the "Atlantis was real" theory.

cormac

I like you cormac because you are so systemtic. I remeber once when I discuss with you about "Marco Polo being a Croatian orgin or not" I told you that you skip things. I was wrong. I apologize. You dont skip.

Yes but Plato want only one who mentioned Atlanits. He was first to mention as we know it. But others discuss about Atlantis. That was my thought. And for some we doesnt know are influenced by Plato at all.

If you want, Im sure that if we have had 4/5 of missing Aristotele works that we would know better.

Also we dont have any orginal Plato work. Only copies. So who knows is something missed in process.

Im not sure that we understand well orgin of all haplogroups.

Also what about OP idea that we must move time when Atlantis fell?

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Nope, it's because there is no archaeological, geological, chronological, technological nor genetic evidence to support its existance.

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

There are indications.

I learnt if there is 1% chance something being true we must follow that lead. As Einstein told us: Most valuable thing is intuition.

My intuition tells me that Plato was saying the truth.

And others.

Edited January 2, 2013 by the L

[Big Bad Voodoo]

(Where are all the Atlantis believers? I see a lot of stubborn skeptics here!)

We right here and we arent going anywhere. And we are not burnt. We are fresh, solid and focus.

Proclus I have few questions,

Maybe I got story wrong but when Atlantis attack Egypt?

Plato's notion of 9000 years is not just any fabled number of years, it fits into Plato's view of cyclical history and the alleged age of Egypt.

…

Plato's theory of cyclical history…

Could you developed that so even I could understand you, please step by step, no hurry. Stage is all yours.

According to you when Atlantis fell...Please..

What about that logos thing. Logos can mean word or conversation as I knew. Not truth.

Edited January 2, 2013 by the L

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Kmt Sesh: The fable of Atlantis pops up for the first time in Plato's Timaeus and Critias, and later writers merely commented on it.

This is wrong.

Atlantis story was consider to be true during Rome empire. And there are enough comments. Especially if we know that most of antique texts were lost.

We have only tiny part.

(btw:this goes for you as moderator- Why dont you provide us and secure us little Poseidon smiley? Since you are Moderator and you are mostly in Ancient Mysteries. We have have ET smiley it would be nice that we have Atlantis one. You know for "teasing" sceptics. Such as you. )

@all

Happy New Year!

Edited January 2, 2013 by the L

[Proclus]

Happy New Year to Everybody!

What could probably inspired Plato was Helike which was destroyed when Plato have had 50 years. Interestingly before we discover Helike again in 20 century we thought on it as another myth. So this could replace Troy if one doesnt like it as example when myth become reality. Also Plato was historian.

Helike was mentioned by the ancient author Proclus to show ... that Atlantis could be real.

(Proclus also uses Aristotle to show that Atlantis was real.)

I personally think that Plato made use of the Helike experience to describe the sinking of Atlantis,

but not to invent the idea of sinking itself. It's a conclusion drawn by Plato: Such must have been the mechanism of sinking.

Also I didnt notice where Aristotele spoke about land beyond pillars.

He does it by seeing the earth as a sphere (what Plato did, too).

Especially when it comes to the elephants, Aristotle sees a connection of land,

otherwise his mentioning of elephants in this special way made no sense.

Proclus has mentioned the Minoan frescoes known from the same period in the Hyksos centers of the Egyptian Delta. I think he's trying to make more of this than he needs to. The connection is indeed interesting, but Minoan material culture has been found in archaeological contexts all over the eastern Mediterranean world.

Where else do you find Minoan freskoes? (Not pottery)

Plato was not an historian. He did not write history, nor was he interested in history just for the sake of it. Plato wrote philosophy. There's a good reason Plato is not regarded as an historian by modern scholars in the academic community.

There is a wide-spreak discussion among scholars to which extent Plato was a historian,

and it is concluded that in the Laws Plato was very accurate in depicting history.

Finally, someone who speaks the most sense I've heard on here in a long time. I agree Plato's belief in cyclical time is the key to the timeframe. I have much reason to assume Plato is speaking seriously when it comes to Atlantis. Happy New Year.

Thank you, Puzzler! :-)

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Helike was mentioned by the ancient author Proclus to show ... that Atlantis could be real.

(Proclus also uses Aristotle to show that Atlantis was real.)

Could you devleped that? If you claim something it would be nice to elaborate. Maybe it is common knowledge to you and you think there is no need for it. But it is not common knowledge to me.

Also when Atlantis attack Egypt?

Can you explain your view on Plato cyclical history? When Atlantis was destroyed according to you?

On what langage Logos mean Truth?

[docyabut2]

Helike was in Plato`s time,however the tale of the destuction of Atlantis was supposely given to Solon in the fifth century bc, so it had to be before Solon`s time.

[Proclus]

Could you devleped that? If you claim something it would be nice to elaborate. Maybe it is common knowledge to you and you think there is no need for it. But it is not common knowledge to me.

Also when Atlantis attack Egypt?

Can you explain your view on Plato cyclical history? When Atlantis was destroyed according to you?

On what langage Logos mean Truth?

Proclus wrote about Plato's Atlantis in his commentary on Plato's Timaeus.

http://archive.org/d...eTimaeusOfPlato

The date of Atlantis and its attack depends on your choice what could have been Atlantis:

In principle every attacker on Egypt is in question, there were many ...

Plato's cyclical history: shows at least two cycles:

A big cycle of reigns of Zeus resp. Cronos (Politicus dialogue).

Smaller cycles of development and destruction of human culture, each of approx. 3000 years.

(Mentioned in the Republic, in the Atlantis dialogues and in the Laws, e.g.)

Logos does not directly mean truth, it has two meanings in Plato's dialogues:

( a ) Every kind of spoken word, true or false.

( b ) A statement which has some support, a reason, a witness, whatever => tends to mean truth, then.

Opposite to b is the mythos.

Since Plato himself sets the mythos as opposed to the logos of Atlantis we know that logos is meant in the second way ( b ), here.

Helike was in Plato`s time,however the tale of the destuction of Atlantis was supposely given to Solon in the fifth century bc, so it had to be before Solon`s time.

docyabut2, this is true only if Plato did not invent the story with Solon, and since we do not know this, your argument is not valid.

Edited January 2, 2013 by Proclus

[cormac mac airt]

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

There are indications.

I learnt if there is 1% chance something being true we must follow that lead. As Einstein told us: Most valuable thing is intuition.

My intuition tells me that Plato was saying the truth.

And others.

But it is the only evidence that we have and therefore the only evidence that matters. One shouldn't base an argument on evidence that doesn't exist or hasn't been found yet.

As to your "chance something being true we must follow that lead", one could make the argument (and someone probably has at some point) that Stargate SG-1 really IS a documentary. Sounds ignorant doesn't it? Yet the latter is no more ignorant than the "chance something being true we must follow that lead", especially when all the relevant evidence shows that this "chance" is incorrect and therefore nothing more than wishful thinking.

cormac

[cormac mac airt]

I like you cormac because you are so systemtic. I remeber once when I discuss with you about "Marco Polo being a Croatian orgin or not" I told you that you skip things. I was wrong. I apologize. You dont skip.

Yes but Plato want only one who mentioned Atlanits. He was first to mention as we know it. But others discuss about Atlantis. That was my thought. And for some we doesnt know are influenced by Plato at all.

If you want, Im sure that if we have had 4/5 of missing Aristotele works that we would know better.

Also we dont have any orginal Plato work. Only copies. So who knows is something missed in process.

Im not sure that we understand well orgin of all haplogroups.

Also what about OP idea that we must move time when Atlantis fell?

Again, one shouldn't base an argument on evidence we don't have.

We have a lot better understanding of the origin and distribution of haplogroups than what you might think. And it gets more precise with each new genetic study.

First, try showing any place around the Mediterranean that EVER went by the name Atlantis at any point in ancient history. Because claiming this or that location "might" have been an inspiration for the story doesn't make them Atlantis.

cormac

[Proclus]

But it is the only evidence that we have and therefore the only evidence that matters. One shouldn't base an argument on evidence that doesn't exist or hasn't been found yet.

As to your "chance something being true we must follow that lead", one could make the argument (and someone probably has at some point) that Stargate SG-1 really IS a documentary. Sounds ignorant doesn't it? Yet the latter is no more ignorant than the "chance something being true we must follow that lead", especially when all the relevant evidence shows that this "chance" is incorrect and therefore nothing more than wishful thinking.

The comparison of Stargate and Plato's Atlantis is inappropriate. Stargate does not present itself as a true story, and its authors do not want to express deep thoughts on government, and also in their other works they are not known as such; furhtermore we know that the Stargate authors live in our times and share our common views of the world. All this is different with Plato and Atlantis. It's like comparing the gospels with Disney's Mickey Mouse - epic fail I would say, even if the gospels were fully wrong.

[cormac mac airt]

The comparison of Stargate and Plato's Atlantis is inappropriate. Stargate does not present itself as a true story, and its authors do not want to express deep thoughts on government, and also in their other works they are not known as such; furhtermore we know that the Stargate authors live in our times and share our common views of the world. All this is different with Plato and Atlantis. It's like comparing the gospels with Disney's Mickey Mouse - epic fail I would say, even if the gospels were fully wrong.

The comparison of Plato's Atlantis and reality is inappropriate. If you have specific evidence showing it existed then present it.

cormac

[docyabut2]

qoute-docyabut2, this is true only if Plato did not invent the story with Solon, and since we do not know this, your argument is not valid.

Most say the tale of Atlantis was not real and it was just Plato `s made up story ,but yet the persons of the dialogues, Socrate, Hemocrates and Critas Plato's great-uncle or Grandfather who gave the tale at the banquet were real people. Solon was real person.Would Plato used real greek men and their words in a made up story?

Edited January 2, 2013 by docyabut2