Russian warships gathering off Syria waters

[Mr.United_Nations]

I posted a picture of the weapon

[+and-then]

is this the "if you don't support Freedom and Democracy, then why don't you go & join the Commies" argument I see before me? So we're still living the Cold War, are we?

Simplify or vilify all you care to, it changes nothing in history or on the current ground. The worldviews are diametrically opposed and a choice has to be made. To think otherwise is to be naive to the point of childishness.

[Yamato]

Hard to believe it was over 10 years ago, but I said then what I'll say now. The history of diplomatic relations between the Iraqi and neighboring governments have nothing to do with preventing arms from crossing borders when the Iraqi regime dissipated into the woodwork stripped of its power, and in the chaos that ruled the countryside for months and years, who knows who moved what where. If securing WMD's were what was so important and what made that war so necessary, am I supposed to think that ignoring the borders and nearly all of the land area inside Iraq in the process was just a dumb mistake someone overlooked in the planning? Please.

The shameless chorus from almost a decade ago told us, Saddam Hussein had WMDs and he would use them on his own people, on us, or on our friends and allies. But in order to believe that, I have to believe the government/media hype endlessly parroted about him to justify another invasion, and enough of that has been discredited as neocon warmongering BS. Hearing these fear mongering comments about Syria is just history repeating itself. It didn't even work on me in late 2002, it's not going to work on me in late 2012 or 2013. Whether Syria has WMDs or not, they're not going to be Saddam's massive stockpiles of stale chemicals we were lied to about in the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Powell/Rice Show that some of us are eager to try again.

Another neocon threat about chemicals isn't what makes Assad's regime so disgraceful. It's the dead and dying people created by it; chemicals not required.

[+and-then]

Hard to believe it was over 10 years ago, but I said then what I'll say now. The history of diplomatic relations between the Iraqi and neighboring governments have nothing to do with preventing arms from crossing borders when the Iraqi regime dissipated into the woodwork stripped of its power, and in the chaos that ruled the countryside for months and years, who knows who moved what where. If securing WMD's were what was so important and what made that war so necessary, am I supposed to think that ignoring the borders and nearly all of the land area inside Iraq in the process was just a dumb mistake someone overlooked in the planning? Please.

The shameless chorus from almost a decade ago told us, Saddam Hussein had WMDs and he would use them on his own people, on us, or on our friends and allies. But in order to believe that, I have to believe the government/media hype endlessly parroted about him to justify another invasion, and enough of that has been discredited as neocon warmongering BS. Hearing these fear mongering comments about Syria is just history repeating itself. It didn't even work on me in late 2002, it's not going to work on me in late 2012 or 2013. Whether Syria has WMDs or not, they're not going to be Saddam's massive stockpiles of stale chemicals we were lied to about in the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Powell/Rice Show that some of us are eager to try again.

Another neocon threat about chemicals isn't what makes Assad's regime so disgraceful. It's the dead and dying people created by it; chemicals not required.

And your political opinions make Assad's KNOWN stockpiles less dangerous, how?

[Yamato]

And your political opinions make Assad's KNOWN stockpiles less dangerous, how?

Which opinions? My opinion about how leaving the borders of a country you're allegedly trying to contain a WMD threat in and landing on the oil fields instead wasn't going to secure anything but the oil fields? I'm not the one denying that Syria may have gotten some weapons when Saddam's toadies were fleeing for their lives after another US invasion began.

If Assad using illegal weapons changes everything, why doesn't it change everything when Israel does it? Why doesn't it change anything when the US does it? Once again you've arrived with a double standard seemingly unaware of it.

It's not about theory on how dangerous a government is. By that standard, the US government is the most dangerous of all. It's about what a government does to people. It's about slaughtering innocent people in the fight against "terrorists". Good old fashioned bullets and bombs are bad enough already. I'm not going to change my mind about Assad because someone fired a chemical-tipped shell out of a howitzer.

[Space Commander Travis]

I posted a picture of the weapon

The Supergun, you mean? That was never actually delivered, was it? It was intercepted before it could be delivered, and that was before Gulf War I.

[Space Commander Travis]

Simplify or vilify all you care to, it changes nothing in history or on the current ground. The worldviews are diametrically opposed and a choice has to be made. To think otherwise is to be naive to the point of childishness.

Vilify? Childishness? That seems a rather emotional choice of words. Who was trying to vilify or change history?

Edited January 9, 2013 by Lord Vetinari

[Mr.United_Nations]

The Supergun, you mean? That was never actually delivered, was it? It was intercepted before it could be delivered, and that was before Gulf War I.

It was never fully completed i think

[libstaK]

The Supergun, you mean? That was never actually delivered, was it? It was intercepted before it could be delivered, and that was before Gulf War I.

It was never fully completed i think

TBH I thought I was looking at a couple of sewerage pipes in that photo.

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

I thought cold war had effectively ended in 1989 and definitively ended in 1991. Reading many posts here and other parts of this forum, it is clear that some people live in the past. It almost seems as if you cannot live without some "boogeyman". What is it you people want? that there was WWIII and Europe a slagheap, though with Soviet tanks at English Channel looking over at a country without any life. You want this now? you want T-90s rolling down Unter Den Linden or Champs-Elysees just so you can say "I told you so, these Russians are evil". You want Russian civilians massacred in Syria just to point finger and laugh like Nelson Muntz. You are childish and sick, you are not serious people, you are mickey mouse jokes. Enough! learn to grow up and accept reality of life. How many here saw combat and death? It is so easy to sit behind computer and type words, any fool can do that. Real world is different. What happens in Syria, or anywhere else, is not entertainment for TV or forums, it is tragic and real. I still see comments, not on this forum though, applauding the terrorists of Beslan, or making ignorant and very stupid remarks about Nord-Ost siege. There is talk of "apologists for Russia" here, So, and there are no apologists and propagandists for the tie chewing moron Saakashvili, or wanted Chechen terrorists living in places like Berlin and London?. West puts on pious face and pretends there is no stink when they go to lavatory, and consistently lies. Latest rant from UK foreign minister was from childrens playground. UK was seen as being serious country, but that was long long time ago. You make remarks against Putin, yet your own leaders are midgets. So, who voted for Barroso and the rest of those parasites in oh so democratic EU? Wash own face before slinging mud. пока...

And where I say "you", well, if cap fits......

Edited January 9, 2013 by Atentutankh-pasheri

[Big Bad Voodoo]

How many here saw combat and death?

Im. Ex-Yugoslavia wars. At war you particpated in?

[Mr.United_Nations]

I thought cold war had effectively ended in 1989 and definitively ended in 1991. Reading many posts here and other parts of this forum, it is clear that some people live in the past. It almost seems as if you cannot live without some "boogeyman". What is it you people want? that there was WWIII and Europe a slagheap, though with Soviet tanks at English Channel looking over at a country without any life. You want this now? you want T-90s rolling down Unter Den Linden or Champs-Elysees just so you can say "I told you so, these Russians are evil". You want Russian civilians massacred in Syria just to point finger and laugh like Nelson Muntz. You are childish and sick, you are not serious people, you are mickey mouse jokes. Enough! learn to grow up and accept reality of life. How many here saw combat and death? It is so easy to sit behind computer and type words, any fool can do that. Real world is different. What happens in Syria, or anywhere else, is not entertainment for TV or forums, it is tragic and real. I still see comments, not on this forum though, applauding the terrorists of Beslan, or making ignorant and very stupid remarks about Nord-Ost siege. There is talk of "apologists for Russia" here, So, and there are no apologists and propagandists for the tie chewing moron Saakashvili, or wanted Chechen terrorists living in places like Berlin and London?. West puts on pious face and pretends there is no stink when they go to lavatory, and consistently lies. Latest rant from UK foreign minister was from childrens playground. UK was seen as being serious country, but that was long long time ago. You make remarks against Putin, yet your own leaders are midgets. So, who voted for Barroso and the rest of those parasites in oh so democratic EU? Wash own face before slinging mud. пока...

And where I say "you", well, if cap fits......

Well you are wrong about the ending of the cold war, Both Koreas are still at war but under ceasefire. And Colombia well maybe not

Edited January 9, 2013 by The New Richard Nixon

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

Chechnya

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

Well you are wrong about the ending of the cold war, Both Koreas are still at war but under ceasefire.

I think it was very clear what Cold war I was about...... Korea is civil war.

[Mr.United_Nations]

I think it was very clear what Cold war I was about...... Korea is civil war.

It is now but it is part of the cold war, it has not finished, Chinese are still supplying them and the Americans supplying the south soooo

[Yamato]

It is now but it is part of the cold war, it has not finished, Chinese are still supplying them and the Americans supplying the south soooo

And so the commercial racket designed by the bureau of taking from Americans and giving to Koreans continues. In the interest of saving money, there's another cord to cut. Especially when China is our preferred trading partner now. Some enemy we're pretending.

[Mr.United_Nations]

And so the commercial racket designed by the bureau of taking from Americans and giving to Koreans continues. In the interest of saving money, there's another cord to cut. Especially when China is our preferred trading partner now. Some enemy we're pretending.

China? would they really want to trade with USA? with North Korea in mind? no

[Just Dave]

China? would they really want to trade with USA? with North Korea in mind? no

Yup China owns you more or less HERE and with US at the edge of bankruptcy, this is war written all over.. remember history tends to repeat itself. Recently i heard a rumor of someone forecasting a war between some asians countries and US, unfortunaly i forgot where i heard that, if someone finds any real info post it please!

Sorry for going offtopic abit... Still russia is pretty discreet country its all hush hush up there and until Syria is buying weaponry from them situation will just last longer and more blood will be spilled..

[Yamato]

Yup China owns you more or less HERE and with US at the edge of bankruptcy, this is war written all over.. remember history tends to repeat itself. Recently i heard a rumor of someone forecasting a war between some asians countries and US, unfortunaly i forgot where i heard that, if someone finds any real info post it please!

Sorry for going offtopic abit... Still russia is pretty discreet country its all hush hush up there and until Syria is buying weaponry from them situation will just last longer and more blood will be spilled..

Amen to that. It was the beginning of the 20th century when the big money moved out of the washed up UK (it was bankrupted by WWII) and headed west to the US. We had our century like the UK had hers. And now the history is repeating itself with the US the biggest debtor nation in the history of the world, and our powerful Asian bankers the biggest creditors. Economic activity is moving to where the assets are, to where the money is, and it's all happening in Asia now.

The message being parroted to the lethargic American people is that it's inevitable. What they're not being told is that the only reason it's inevitable is because of our overreaching overspending debt-based policies. Our growth rates would be more explosive than Asia's if we allowed the market to bring down our loser corporations and rebuild from scratch like markets always do whenever there's demand to be satisfied. But they're "too big to fail" so failure is now reserved for the small.

[Yamato]

China? would they really want to trade with USA? with North Korea in mind? no

"Would" they? My statement is not hypothetical. If China is an "enemy", we have a lousy way of showing it. Even our illustrious leader, President George W. Bush, told us to go spend our stimulus checks in the mail on more plastic junk at Walmart.

[+and-then]

Which opinions? My opinion about how leaving the borders of a country you're allegedly trying to contain a WMD threat in and landing on the oil fields instead wasn't going to secure anything but the oil fields? I'm not the one denying that Syria may have gotten some weapons when Saddam's toadies were fleeing for their lives after another US invasion began.

If Assad using illegal weapons changes everything, why doesn't it change everything when Israel does it? Why doesn't it change anything when the US does it? Once again you've arrived with a double standard seemingly unaware of it.

It's not about theory on how dangerous a government is. By that standard, the US government is the most dangerous of all. It's about what a government does to people. It's about slaughtering innocent people in the fight against "terrorists". Good old fashioned bullets and bombs are bad enough already. I'm not going to change my mind about Assad because someone fired a chemical-tipped shell out of a howitzer.

If Israel ever uses a WMD on one of it's neighbors or even it's own people then I fully expect that it WILL change things. You attempting to equate the use of WP in Gaza (or whatever other imagined agent) to the use of chemical agents that will cause mass casualty events is silly. The two aren't in the same league. Again, if your political views are so important that you feel they justify turning a blind eye to the use of such weapons then I think that is deplorable and sad.

[+and-then]

Vilify? Childishness? That seems a rather emotional choice of words. Who was trying to vilify or change history?

What else would you call this: "if you don't support Freedom and Democracy, then why don't you go & join the Commies" ?This in response to my inviting another poster to support their ideals in the country they loved. You were obviously over simplifying and by doing were attempting to insult. Not going to argue this with you.

[Yamato]

If Israel ever uses a WMD on one of it's neighbors or even it's own people then I fully expect that it WILL change things. You attempting to equate the use of WP in Gaza (or whatever other imagined agent) to the use of chemical agents that will cause mass casualty events is silly. The two aren't in the same league. Again, if your political views are so important that you feel they justify turning a blind eye to the use of such weapons then I think that is deplorable and sad.

Oh so now we're going around the circle back to mass casualties again. We already have mass casualties in Syria. If that's what matters, it already matters.

If Israel uses a WMD (that must cause "mass casualties" now) on its neighbors what things will it change? Take me down that slippery slope that is your political view, free of sadness and deplorability that it is.

Edited January 9, 2013 by Yamato

[+and-then]

You said that if Assad uses "illegal weapons" meaning chemical weapons I assume - taken in context of the discussion - then "why doesn't it change everything when Israel does it?" Israel has not used chemical weapons. The closest accusation that can be made - and even that wasn't proven by the UN - is Israeli use of white phosphorous. It IS illegal but hardly on the scale of chemical weapons. The mass casualties I refer to are those that come from a type of weapon that doesn't require 2 years and many, many intentional acts of trigger pulling. I'm talking about a salvo of scuds that could be released in a matter of a couple hours of prep time that could kill or maim thousands or even tens of thousands of people. ESPECIALLY when those people aren't even Syrian - just neighbors or even innocents in countries half a world away. These weapons matter because they can be used to great effect by third parties they were never intended for.

[Yamato]

You said that if Assad uses "illegal weapons" meaning chemical weapons I assume - taken in context of the discussion - then "why doesn't it change everything when Israel does it?" Israel has not used chemical weapons. The closest accusation that can be made - and even that wasn't proven by the UN - is Israeli use of white phosphorous. It IS illegal but hardly on the scale of chemical weapons. The mass casualties I refer to are those that come from a type of weapon that doesn't require 2 years and many, many intentional acts of trigger pulling. I'm talking about a salvo of scuds that could be released in a matter of a couple hours of prep time that could kill or maim thousands or even tens of thousands of people. ESPECIALLY when those people aren't even Syrian - just neighbors or even innocents in countries half a world away. These weapons matter because they can be used to great effect by third parties they were never intended for.

White Phosphorous is a poisonous chemical; nobody in their right mind would dare exposure to it. If released into the air it could kill thousands and sicken an entire population. Using it to cause gruesome burns on human flesh and to inflict terror and suffering on civilians and children is revolting and unacceptable. We have standards, rules of war, and some of us like to pretend that Israel is immune to them.