EU 'makes UK more valuable to US

[stevewinn]

I think its quite clear that they sit round the table with the EU and carry out negotiations. They understand what it takes to sit at the top table and set the agenda - and the Uk is small beer. They currently see the Uk as a lever of influence within the EU, outside they are not that important when negotiating with the largest open market in the world.

Br Cornelius

i seen the news report. the Germans have come out warning us about leaving. their main argument is economic - this is precisely why the sooner we leave the better we dont want be so consumed by the EU to the extent such as Greece, and your very own country- Ireland. finding ourselves in a situation were we can never break free.

the only interest for the US is the fact they can reply upon the UK to keep the politics in europe going in a direction likened by the US so they can concentrate their efforts in other parts of the world

US intelligence and strategic planners must now think we are nearing the point at which we'll leave the EU. which for people like me is very encouraging. remember ' A kite flies highest against the wind, Not with it.

Edited January 11, 2013 by stevewinn

[stevewinn]

Eum, the dutch or the french didn't have referendums to leave Europe....where the hell are you getting this?? Do you understand the nature of referendums?

They voted on treaties and enlargement of the EU ... not to leave it, quite the opposite. France was one of the founding members lol...do you re-read your posts before you post them ? You should.

Get your facts straight if you're gonna get all emotional about it.

France - Before allowing the new candidate member states to join the European Communities, founding member France held a referendum on 23 April 1972. The turnout was 60.7%, with 68.3% in favour.

Following that approval, three of the four candidate states (Ireland, Denmark, Norway) likewise held referendums on the issue of joining the European Communities. The results were:

• Ireland - 83.1% in favour (10 May 1973)
  

United Kingdom The Conservative government of Edward Heath did not hold a referendum before the United Kingdom joined. Labour's manifesto for the 1974 general election included a pledge for a referendum, so after Labour won under Harold Wilson, the referendum was held on whether to remain in the Communities. The result was 67.2% in favour, with a turnout of 64.0%.

Ireland The Tenth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland permitted Ireland to ratify the Single European Act. It was approved by referendum on 26 May 1987. The result of the referendum was 69.9% in favour.

Three countries held referendums on the ratification of the treaty of Maastricht: France, Ireland and Denmark.

• Ireland referendum (18 June 1992)
  

Result was a majority of 68.7% in favour. Turnout was 57.31%.

• France referendum (20 September 1992)
  

The treaty was verified with a slim margin of victory of 51.1% in favour. Turnout was 69.7%.

Two countries held referendums on the ratification of the treaty of Amsterdam: Ireland and Denmark.

• Ireland referendum (22 May 1998)
  

Result was a majority of 61.74% in favour. Turnout was 56.2%.

• Ireland - Irish referendums on Treaty of Nice
  

In 2001 Irish voters rejected the Treaty of Nice by 53.9%, but with only 34.8% of the electorate voting, while in 2002 they accepted the Treaty by 62.9% with 49.5% of the electorate voting.

Several member states used or intended to use referendums to ratify the Treaty establishing a Constitution for Europe (TCE).

The results were as follows:

• Spain - 76.7% in favour (20 February 2005)
  
• France - 54.9% against (29 May 2005)
  
• Netherlands - 61.5% against (1 June 2005)
  
• Luxembourg - 56.5% in favour (10 July 2005)
  

Ireland - European Fiscal Compact referendum, 60.3% in favour (31 May 2012)

Notice this is not about leaving Europe...haha...seriously, nice try though.

The historical roots of the European Union lie in the Second World War. Europeans are determined to prevent such killing and destruction ever happening again. Soon after the war, Europe is split into East and West as the 40-year-long Cold War begins. West European nations create the Council of Europe in 1949. It is a first step towards cooperation between them, but six countries want to go further.

9 May 1950 — French Foreign Minister Robert Schuman presents a plan for deeper cooperation. Later, every 9 May is celebrated as 'Europe Day'.

18 April 1951

Based on the Schuman plan, six countries sign a treaty to run their heavy industries – coal and steel – under a common management. In this way, none can on its own make the weapons of war to turn against the other, as in the past. The six are Germany, France, Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg.

Founding Member States: Germany, France, Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg.

http://europa.eu/abo...59/index_en.htm

Educate yourself will ya.

America knows Europe is rising and becoming a stronger force to reckon with...the UK is providing them an easier link to the EU because the UK does nothing better than brownnose the USA.

Where in my post did i say France The Netherland or Ireland Held a referendum to leave the EU. - if you read it correctly. i never said what you are implying.

[ExpandMyMind]

Where in my post did i say France The Netherland or Ireland Held a referendum to leave the EU. - if you read it correctly. i never said what you are implying.

"

The Dutch said NO, the French said NO the Irish said NO. every time the people have been given the vote on referendums they have voted NO. and each and every time ignored, the Irish Vote was the best. by making them vote twice until they Voted YES, mind you they didn't even give the Dutch or the French a second vote they simply ignored them."

[stevewinn]

"

The Dutch said NO, the French said NO the Irish said NO. every time the people have been given the vote on referendums they have voted NO. and each and every time ignored, the Irish Vote was the best. by making them vote twice until they Voted YES, mind you they didn't even give the Dutch or the French a second vote they simply ignored them."

where exactly did i say it was a referendum on leaving the EU. just highlight the word in bold, you wont find it because i never said such. - anyone knows if they follow these type of threads or discussions, they'll be well aware of what referendums the French said NO the Dutch said NO and the Irish said NO are referring to and wiki or google should not be needed. still should be fresh in the memory.

Noticed the French have go into former colony of Mali in a bid to stop the terrorists.

President Francois Hollande says French troops are taking part in operations against Islamists in northern Mali.

French troops "have brought support this afternoon to Malian units to fight against terrorist elements"

i guess it'll be on the news tonight.

Edited January 11, 2013 by stevewinn

[ExpandMyMind]

where exactly did i say it was a referendum on leaving the EU. just highlight the word in bold, you wont find it because i never said such. - anyone knows if they follow these type of threads or discussions, they'll be well aware of what referendums the French said NO the Dutch said NO and the Irish said NO are referring to and wiki or google should not be needed. still should be fresh in the memory.

What referendums did they say no to? Joining?

And for the record, when you state "over half of the people of europe would vote to leave the EU if given the vote", then directly move on to the aforementioned quote from my previous post, then it looks like the two are directly related; it looks like you were referring to referendums to leave the EU.

Edited January 11, 2013 by ExpandMyMind

[stevewinn]

Eum, the dutch or the french didn't have referendums to leave Europe....where the hell are you getting this?? Do you understand the nature of referendums?

They voted on treaties and enlargement of the EU ... not to leave it, quite the opposite. France was one of the founding members lol...do you re-read your posts before you post them ? You should.

Get your facts straight if you're gonna get all emotional about it.

What referendums did they say no to? Joining?

And for the record, when you state "over half of the people of europe would vote to leave the EU if given the vote", then directly move on to the aforementioned quote from my previous post, then it looks like the two are directly related; it looks like you were referring to referendums to leave the EU.

My reply was to Render - in reply to especially the bold highlighted above in the first quote. first and foremost he as incorrectly quoted me. for the fourth time, i did not say the referendums were on leaving the EU. go back and read my post. He says i should get my facts right, he hasn't even quoted me right. and seems to be replying to the voices in his head. followed by am getting emotional. - it is he who is getting emotional spending twenty minutes copy and pasting. thinking hes making a point, but i'll keep my powder dry.

As for you Expand. its not my fault you have interpreted it wrong. i thought the space left in between would be sufficient. just like now, - i can see were the mistake can be made, but then again, to anyone whose been following the European Union debates would instantly know, without interpretation what the following refers to - The French said No, the Dutch Said NO and the Irish Said NO. - even now instantly you should realise what it refers to? no?

[ExpandMyMind]

No, I don't follow this too closely. What did they vote no on?

[questionmark]

No, I don't follow this too closely. What did they vote no on?

The European constitution, and both in France and Holland it was less about the constitution (that hardly anybody knew at the time, and still is not known by the majority) but about local politics. Both wanted to infringe a loss to their government, and I wager that the result would have been the same if anybody would have to vote whether they want free 50 Euros and the government was in favor.

At the end they did all Europeans a disfavor as the rights contained in the constitution were not enacted but later, in the treaty of Lisbon, all obligations.

[smurf0852]

So you have already given an unelected foreign government control over some of your laws, now you want to listen to a president of another country over the people of the UK?

us british love unelected people the little englanders wave flags at queenie and adore the lords that rule our second goverment house even though none of them are elected .its the fact its those bloody european people that winds them up .if they all waved union flags it would be someone elses fault.

england is full of small minded sun reading ****wits with as much independent though as a bee in a swarm.

[stevewinn]

No, I don't follow this too closely. What did they vote no on?

as Q, as already explained, but to add more meat to the bone, the vote as on the EU constitution, - but this threw a spanner in the works. because of the changes in the EU constitution it would require the major countries to go to their people in a referendum vote. to accept it, but in the EU they dont like referendums especially if they know they are going to loose them. So what happened to get around any legalities they would change the EU constitution and call it the Lisbon treaty. yet in reality the Lisbon Treaty is the EU constitution. they done this so they wouldn't have to go to a vote knowing full well most of the members would strike it down by voting No. - we had French President SarKozy say their is no point having a referendum, because the people would Vote NO. so they didn't ask them and ratified it anyway. because they didn't want a repeat of last time when they voted No. the Dutch also voted NO. then out of the 27 Member countries of the European Union only ONE, thats right ONE country held a vote on the Lisbon Treaty. and yet this on a issue that directly affects the lives and future lives of every single person in the EU. - When the Irish held the vote, they Voted NO. within 24 hours the EU had decided they'd have to vote again. - This is when the dirt comes out, how dare a such a country such as Ireland who had benefited more than most from EU membership vote NO. the EU propaganda machine flew into action they spent 10 to one more money on advertising. for a YES vote. they said if Ireland voted No. they'd face economic meltdown, they said they'd lose jobs. the usual stuff. the scare tactics. and one MEP even called the Irish Stupid. he stated they were to thick to understand the treaty issues. i guess he was right because they held a second vote and the Irish Voted YES.

The worrying part is the politicians knew if they'd asked the people in a referendum they'd have Voted NO, - this is what i find truly alarming and it just shows how people sleepwalk into situations. We had Danny Cohn Bendit German MEP in the European parliament say at the time if anyone votes no against the constitution they are mentally ill. we had Martin Schulz MEP say if anyone votes NO they are Nazis. does this sound like people who believe in democracy? does any of this process sound like a democracy? And before anyone says the two are different. listen to the words of the Author of the EU Constitution when he said. the Lisbon Treaty is the EU constitution.

well this has all happened, its all been passed and we have seen it with our own eyes, were living through it - the Lisbon Treaty was the EU constitution in all but name. truly is one for the history books.

[stevewinn]

us british love unelected people the little englanders wave flags at queenie and adore the lords that rule our second goverment house even though none of them are elected .its the fact its those bloody european people that winds them up .if they all waved union flags it would be someone elses fault.

england is full of small minded sun reading ****wits with as much independent though as a bee in a swarm.

But who makes the rules of the land who governs the country? not the Queen, or the Lords. if you dont like the Government Vote them out at the next election.

i tell you what at the next European electionn, vote out the EU commissioners, vote out our EU President Mr Van Rompuy. Oh thats right you cannot remove them from office and secondly you didnt even vote for them in the first place. yet these people are having a direct effect on our every day lives. unelected the lot of them. democracy EU style.

OUR VERY OWN UNELECTED EU PRESIDENT - Failed politician from the ecomomic power house known the world over as Belgium. Belgium i hear you say. YES Belgium. another non country who for the best part of the last few years hasn't even had a government. MR VAN Rompuy a face to fill you with confidence, this man is paid a salary even more than the US President. what a gravy train Mr Van Rompuy as walked upon.

Edited January 12, 2013 by stevewinn

[itsnotoutthere]

us british love unelected people the little englanders wave flags at queenie and adore the lords that rule our second goverment house even though none of them are elected .its the fact its those bloody european people that winds them up .if they all waved union flags it would be someone elses fault.

england is full of small minded sun reading ****wits with as much independent though as a bee in a swarm.

I think it's that 'independent thought' that you are actually arguing against & trying to deny the public. For a would be communist you're not very keen to let the proletariat decide their own future are you, oh but then again, we are all ****fits.

.......actually on second thoughts you wear your communist credentials well, afterall letting the people decide their own future would be tantamount to living in a democracy, & we can't allow that can we comrades.

Edited January 12, 2013 by itsnotoutthere

[TheLastLazyGun]

The US is only interested in US interests. It isn't interested in British interests. The only reason why the US wants Britain to stay in the EU is because doing so would be good for US interests. The US doesn't care about whether or not it will be good for Britain. It just wants Britain to stay in the EU for US interests, not British interests. Do you really think that the Americans are thinking: "We care about Britain and the British people. We think being in the EU is good for Britain and we don't want them to suffer by leaving the EU. We want them to stay because we care about them." Do they heck. The only reason why they want Britain in the EU is because it is good for AMERICAN interests, not British ones.

I did laugh at what the Americans said. Philip Gordon, a senior official in the US State Department, said: "Referendums have often turned countries inwards", in response to the likelihood that the British are to be given a vote on their membership of the EUSSR. I laughed because it is usually the Americans which are inward-looking and Britain is traditionally outward-looking, as shown again by Britain's desire to leave the very much inward-looking EU and join the global community again.

I don't normally agree with former Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott, but I agreed with him on last night's episode of Question Time when he said exactly the same as what I wrote in the above paragraph. In the early Seventies Prescott actually led a campaign to try and stop Britain entering the Common Market.

So the British Government should ignore the US (and the Germans and the Irish, too, who are also out for just their own interests and not Britain's). The British government should, however, listen to the British people, most of whom want a referendum and most of whom now wish to leave the EU.

The PM is actually making a speech on this issue on Tuesday 22nd January and it is expected that he will, indeed, announce that the British people are to get the EU in/out referendum that we want, a referendum in which it is almost certain the British will will vote to leave the EU.

Perhaps the PM is recognising that the British people need to be allowed to decide whether or not they want to be in the EU as we haven't been allowed to make this decision since way back in 1975 when many of those who voted are now dead and many millions who are now eligible to vote weren't even born. Or maybe, perhaps, he knows that UKIP are presenting a real threat to his party and he known that, should no EU referendum be forthcoming by 2015, he and his party will be in trouble and UKIP will take many votes off them.

Edited January 12, 2013 by TheLastLazyGun

[TheLastLazyGun]

The deluded Euro skeptics may not think their influence will diminish outside of the EU, but those of a more sane disposition know better.

Br Cornelius

Britain will be a much more powerful nation outside the EU as an independent nation which runs its own affairs like most countries do than it will be inside the EU when it will be just one "Member State" amongst many having to follow whatever bizarre and pointless rules Brussels makes us follow and when it has economic growth held back by the stranglehold of Brussels.

In fact, the reason why the Americans, Irish and Germans are getting themselves in a state of panic over the prospect of Britain leaving the EU is precisely because Britain is an influential, powerful nation. They will not work themselves up in such a state were it Denmark or Portugal threatening to leave the EU.

At the end of the day Britain is the world's fifth largest economy and has the only properly-functioning military in the Western World other than the United States. Britain is more than big enough to stand on its own two feet and the only people who think otherwise are the raving, mouth-frothing, swivel-eyed Europhile loonies who think the EU is some sort of great Nirvana in which every country must be a part of should they wish to acquire political and economic greatness and every country outside the EU (around 87% of the world's nations) are dark, medieval countries where dragons and minotaurs roam but, thankfully, these raving, mouth-frothing, swivel-eyed Europhile loonies are very much in the minority not only in Britain but across Europe.

Edited January 12, 2013 by TheLastLazyGun

[TheLastLazyGun]

They also described the EU for what it is - the largest economy in the world.

Br Cornelius

Well, they are wrong. The Commonwealth's economy has just overtaken the EU.

So will the economies of the USA and China in the not-too-distant future.

Get it into your head that Europe as an economic power is finished.

[Guest]

The commonwealth isn't a trading block and offers no special advantages to the UK, all trading deals have to be negotiated on a country by country basis - it is in no way comparable to the EU.

You seem to think that you will be returning to the prosperity of Empire days, without realising that the only reason why the UK was as prosperous as it was was because it exploited its colonial subject nations with preferential trade deals and outright theft. You aint going back to that, you would go back to been a marginal trading nation with sever debt issues and a declining industrial base - in a world where making money from banking is going to be massively constrained in the future.

Its quite interesting to note that the great (?) iron lady was a firm believer in a strong trading block called the EU and that she thought the place for Britain was firmly at its center. the crazies seem to have taken over her party.

Br Cornelius

[AsteroidX]

How old is the EU ? Rally asking here.

[Guest]

Well, they are wrong. The Commonwealth's economy has just overtaken the EU.

So will the economies of the USA and China in the not-too-distant future.

Get it into your head that Europe as an economic power is finished.

The EU is not any more in decline or facing any more economic crisis than any of those other trading blocks you point to. China has massive readjustments to make to an overheated economy. The USA is still running on credit junky status without any meaningful industrial growth (its still shrinking).

Wishful thinking will not make your delusion true.

Br Cornelius

[questionmark]

How old is the EU ? Rally asking here.

Which one? The oldest version dates from 1957. With an elected parliament it dates from 1979.

[AsteroidX]

Thanks questionmark. I was believing the EU was young and wanted to be sure I was accurate enough.

Based on the age of the EU I wouldnt be surprised if it didnt dissolve altogether eventually considering the diverse nationalities and political systems involved. I just dont get how the US became part of the EU conversation as we have enough problems at home and should be more concerned about our own borders and why they are so strict and why NAFTA failed America.

[questionmark]

Thanks questionmark. I was believing the EU was young and wanted to be sure I was accurate enough.

Based on the age of the EU I wouldnt be surprised if it didnt dissolve altogether eventually considering the diverse nationalities and political systems involved. I just dont get how the US became part of the EU conversation as we have enough problems at home and should be more concerned about our own borders and why they are so strict and why NAFTA failed America.

The EU is not NAFTA, at least not at this stage. It outgrew its NAFTA stage in '79. Now more laws are made in Strasbourg (seat of the European Parliament) than in the national parliaments. And expect the first elected EU prezz within the next 15 years.

[Guest]

Thanks questionmark. I was believing the EU was young and wanted to be sure I was accurate enough.

Based on the age of the EU I wouldnt be surprised if it didnt dissolve altogether eventually considering the diverse nationalities and political systems involved. I just dont get how the US became part of the EU conversation as we have enough problems at home and should be more concerned about our own borders and why they are so strict and why NAFTA failed America.

The US wants the EU to remain as open as possible so that it can trade into the largest economic zone with minimal tariffs. The UK is on exactly the same Neo-Liberal economic pathway as the US, so the US sees the UK as a lever to influence policy in a sympathetic direction and to protect its large body of inward investment within the UK.

America will lose money in two ways if the UK pulls out;

- it will cost to divest its inward investment (inevitable even if tariffs to trade shift a fraction)

- it will likely be that trade arrangements between the EU and USA will not be as open in the future - especially in light of the fact that America is trying to devalue its way back to prosperity - an option not as easy to achieve for the EU.

A UK pull out could turn into a bonanza for Ireland as the Americans shift their multinationals to a low Corporate Tax zone with strong ties. Come to think of it - sling your hook UK.

Br Cornelius

Edited January 12, 2013 by Guest

[TheLastLazyGun]

A UK pull out could turn into a bonanza for Ireland as the Americans shift their multinationals to a low Corporate Tax zone with strong ties. Come to think of it - sling your hook UK.

Br Cornelius

Ireland is not going to be receiving any "bonanza" whilst it remains in the Euro.

But what happens to Ireland when Britain leaves the EU is of no concern to me. I just want Britain out.

[Guest]

Ireland is not going to be receiving any "bonanza" whilst it remains in the Euro.

But what happens to Ireland when Britain leaves the EU is of no concern to me. I just want Britain out.

You really don't understand what America is saying here - they want Europe to be strong and they will support it with policy decisions. Ireland already receives some of the highest per capita inward investment from America of all the European countries, if the UK pulls out that will rise much higher as the UK's American inward investment declines and businesses transfer to Ireland , which shares one of the lowest tax bases for foreign direct investment with the UK. There will be no sentiment when multinationals look for the largest market to sell into.

Simply wishing it not to be so will not change these basic facts.

Br Cornelius

[itsnotoutthere]

I think all this panic ridden shrieking from the europhiles is misplaced as our glorious leaders left or right have no intension of letting the British public have a say on whether we stay or leave the E.U. they already know what the majority of people want & if that means putting an end to the euro gravy train they're not gonna let it happen.

Edited January 13, 2013 by itsnotoutthere