Belgian twins choose euthenasia

[Rlyeh]

Now you're just being silly. And just to state facts, those twins did not 'need' to die.

You're the one who wants to bar euthanasia as long as the individual can off themselves.

And I'm not sure what your second paragraph is all about. I am all for euthanasia given the right circumstances, as I have already stated in this thread. It is, however, my opinion that these were not the right circumstances, and I have made my reasoning quite clear already.

I was responding to joc, as the quote kind of implies.

[Rlyeh]

So, the terminally ill are dying...so we should just go ahead and put them out of their misery like a horse with a broken pelvis? No, we shouldn't. We have pain medication and hospice set up to help them and their families and make their last moments comfortable and memorable for the family.

If it is their choice. Pain medication only does so much.

You've just turned the terminally ill into a sentimental object for their family.

[Rlyeh]

For all those who believe in this, do you think I was in the wrong when I physically prevented a man from jumping to his death from a bridge last year?

Depends if you condemned him to a worse fate.

[acidhead]

Depends if you condemned him to a worse fate.

.... condemned him......... hahaha

[Lava_Lady]

If an adult in their right mind has made a decision that they no longer want to be alive for whatever reason, I will support their choice, but it should not be an impulse decision. This is a decision that cannot be reversed. The individual must be sure. I'm hoping the Belgians have a law that addresses this. Even for those who are terminally ill and want to end their suffering, should have to go through in-depth questioning and scrutiny to be sure... to BE COMPLETELY SURE THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT.

After having a dear friend commit suicide, I had nightmares that in the final seconds of her consciousness, she changed her mind... this is an absolutely horrifying thought to me. It is a helpless feeling but, it is too late to do anything about it. And I knew her suffering too, she had tried many times and finally suceeded so I think I can say she was completely sure, now.

A lot of people say that suicide is a "selfish act" that it hurts the family and friends... yes it does, but, think about the pain that causes someone to want to die. Maybe we should let them go, if they know for sure...

[acidhead]

If an adult in their right mind has made a decision that they no longer want to be alive for whatever reason, I will support their choice, but it should not be an impulse decision. This is a decision that cannot be reversed. The individual must be sure. I'm hoping the Belgians have a law that addresses this. Even for those who are terminally ill and want to end their suffering, should have to go through in-depth questioning and scrutiny to be sure... to BE COMPLETELY SURE THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT.

After having a dear friend commit suicide, I had nightmares that in the final seconds of her consciousness, she changed her mind... this is an absolutely horrifying thought to me. It is a helpless feeling but, it is too late to do anything about it. And I knew her suffering too, she had tried many times and finally suceeded so I think I can say she was completely sure, now.

A lot of people say that suicide is a "selfish act" that it hurts the family and friends... yes it does, but, think about the pain that causes someone to want to die. Maybe we should let them go, if they know for sure...

booooooo!

[Yamato]

Got to agree with ExpandMyMind, assisted suicide should provide a way out for those incapable of doing it themselves. They could have just grabbed a bottle of whiskey, drove to a nice view, run garden hose from the exhaust intop the car and shared drinks until they fell asleep forever.

Good point. Death by CO is about as painless and easy as anything else. If fear of dying is a reason not to kill yourself, then I think the rest of the world should take a passive role in waiting for that desire to die to overwhelm that fear of dying. Just because someone is afraid doesn't mean their fear is meaningless or irrational. Maybe they have real reasons to fear dying. Maybe they'll traumatize loved ones who wouldn't agree with their decision. Maybe they don't trust the benefactors of their will after they're gone. We can speculate at length, yet there is no insurance that death is the right decision just because there's a degree of desire for it. I think that matters because death is obviously irreversible. Many people want to die because they're depressed. They might also have disabilities or incurable diseases. We should be extremely cautious with people in society all too willing to assist them in that desire, for a price.

[Rlyeh]

.... condemned him......... hahaha

I mean just look at you.

[acidhead]

I mean just look at you.

my dad can beat up your dad

[+joc]

For all those who believe in this, do you think I was in the wrong when I physically prevented a man from jumping to his death from a bridge last year?

Because believe me when I tell you he was not happy with me.

To me it's one thing to choose to die when you are terminally ill and are getting to the point where you're totaly disabled, or like these two apparently did, become very depressed about how you were going to eventually be over the course of time and go before you are incapacitated. That's the part that bothers me about this, is that these two were not terminal and had not yet lost thier sight.

edit to add: BM that top part is for you.

You know what side I am on here. But...my first 'knee jerk' reaction is...not that I think it was wrong...rather, I am firstly inclined to think it was...not very smart, and of course, I say that, having no knowledge of the particulars of the situation. Generally, the thing to do is talk them away from the edge as best you can, until the police arrive, and then let the professionals do what they do. However; for all I know, you may be the police...in which case...I salute you! (picture a little smilie guy here saluting)

[+joc]

my dad can beat up your dad

I can beat up your dad...and my dad ...wait my dad is 81, not really a fair fight...I can beat up your mom too!

[acidhead]

I can beat up your dad...and my dad ...wait my dad is 81, not really a fair fight...I can beat up your mom too!

heyyyyy.... let's leave the mom's outta this? .... okay?.... hahha

lol

[Bonecrusher]

They can still...feel. They can still ...taste. They can still...smell. So, they could set down together, enjoy a bowl of bean chili together...passing notes in braille telling each other how good that chili tasted and...excuse me brother...Whew! I know that didn't just rip out of my ass!

They could still fashion themselves a life of sorts with their remaining senses being heightened.

So they can still smell coffee,tell if somebody's hot or cold just by touch alone or know if chilli peppers are about to burn their gob.

However my sense of balance is appalling despite being able to see or hear.

So I might as well be dead to the world and if that's the case I should be dead in the ground.

I can certaintly guide myself with my white stick but I feel my balance is going to ruin all the good work.

So I'll need my sisters assistance just to guide the tablets into my mouth providing it gets to the stage where it's legal.

Tbh I think blind people are doing just okay because their level of support is top class.

It might compound a few disability experts if they found out their latest client has Aspergers,deaf as a post and blind as a bat.

Would I though count on their assistance or just ignore it and commit euthanisia anyway.

[ExpandMyMind]

You're the one who wants to bar euthanasia as long as the individual can off themselves.

I was responding to joc, as the quote kind of implies.

1. Well, yeah. How is this silly? While you may not agree with it there can be no doubt it is actually quite a reasonable thing to suggest, since, well, most euthanasian laws were brought in, in part, for this reason. And in some countries the doctor actually only 'helps' the patient kill themselves. While on the other hand, your point definitely was silly.

2. And, actually, you quite clearly were responding to me. The entire text of your post (post 28):

Posted Yesterday, 03:57 PM

ExpandMyMind, on 15 January 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

I like your point, but it's going to the extreme a bit, no? If they can use a razor, take an elevator, tie some rope, maybe even swallow some pills themselves, why should a doctor and, as joc stated, the government, be brought in? Especially considering that their pain would only be emotional. Another word for that type of 'pain' is mental. What next? Assisted suicide for manic depressives?

Why should someone in pain be forced to go to such measures? Should those who need operations also be forced to do it themselves?

BTW who else is going to regulate euthanasia? Some guy in a dark alley?

As you can see, a response to me, not joc.

[ExpandMyMind]

So you know what ALL doctors stand for? I understand they agree to the Hippocratic oath or have we forgotten Dr. Kevorkian?

What about people who attempt suicide, fail, try again and succeed? Did they want to lve for just a bit longer till they found the right coffin size? No, because there are differing circumstances for why people try it, why people can't go through with it, and why some succede. Sometimes it's a mental problem, sometimes it's a cry for help, and sometimes it's because you're inbetween a rock and an unknown hard place and at least the rock is familiar.

You misunderstand. I meant by 'can't go on with life' the millions of depressed people with thoughts of killing themselves, not people who actually can't go on due to actual suffering brought on by physical problems.

The doctor's oath should be amended to also include euthanasia. While not all doctors would do this, there would always be those that would and although there would be legalities to work out, it should be legalized!

I, too, agree it should be legalised, but not by the same legal definition as many here believe it should, it would seem.

[ExpandMyMind]

The unborn isn't human?

I wasn't referring to simply an unborn baby. I was referring to the stage at which the embryo can be aborted. At this stage, no, it is not a human.

I mean what next? We ban the pill? Outlaw m********ion? Both due to the potential for life being killed. A child in the womb is only classified as a human after a certain point in the process.

Before that, no, they are not human.

[Beckys_Mom]

To me it's one thing to choose to die when you are terminally ill and are getting to the point where you're totaly disabled, or like these two apparently did, become very depressed about how you were going to eventually be over the course of time and go before you are incapacitated. That's the part that bothers me about this, is that these two were not terminal and had not yet lost thier sight.

edit to add: BM that top part is for you.

So, it would have been more acceptable IF they had of waited until their sight was completely gone..?

[Render]

It's understandable that some ppl feel a line was crossed here, because they aren't well-informed over the actual issue.

The twins went through all the steps for a year and half, consulted 3 doctors (as is required) and tried a myriad of medications and treatments..but many they couldn't even try because it would have effect on their eyes and other issues.

One of them had respiratory problems and could only sleep sitting upwards. The other one had trouble walking after a neck operation where they think they damaged bone marrow.

And now they were already almost completely blind, not a lil bit.

The twins informed every doctor that they would kill themselves, so ultimately their euthanasia was granted.

Saying that ppl should just commit suicide because that would somehow be better are very close minded. Suicide leads to a series of issues: family members that are crushed because knowing your family members/children committed suicide isn't an acceptable thought. Also, suicide isn't free or anything, the government gets involved either way.

With euthanasia there is a higher sense of acceptance, since family members see it more as a choice than an act of despair. This is something worth considering instead of just dismissing.

Also, these arguments that they should've just driven their car of some place or shot themselves : they were almost completely blind

waddaya want? That they call their mom and ask if she can drive em off a cliff?

Please.

And yanno, all these attitudes here where you just demand that these twins should've just buckled up and faced a life of darkness is very arrogant. Maybe try and have some empathy and understand that it must've been extremely daunting realising that soon they would not be able to communicate anymore. The reality would've been that they would be totally dependant of others and they wouldn't be able to do much anymore, except be condemned to being locked in themselves where images of their memory slowly start to slip away.

Simply demanding that they should just getter over this and keep on living, because you ppl refuse to even think about how reality was for them, is ridiculous.

[Hasina]

You misunderstand. I meant by 'can't go on with life' the millions of depressed people with thoughts of killing themselves, not people who actually can't go on due to actual suffering brought on by physical problems.

Those people should also be able to have the freedom to make their own choice. We can't force people into mental institutions if they're an adult and not a danger to others, why should we also tell them that they should keep on living, for what? So they can pop pills and pretend to be a working cog in the machine?

People should have the freedom to make their own choice, mental problems or not, as long as it doesn't endanger another person. Does this mean we shouldn't try to help them? No, of course not, but you can't force an alcoholic to AA, you shouldn't force someone to stay alive.

[ExpandMyMind]

Those people should also be able to have the freedom to make their own choice. We can't force people into mental institutions if they're an adult and not a danger to others, why should we also tell them that they should keep on living, for what? So they can pop pills and pretend to be a working cog in the machine?

People should have the freedom to make their own choice, mental problems or not, as long as it doesn't endanger another person. Does this mean we shouldn't try to help them? No, of course not, but you can't force an alcoholic to AA, you shouldn't force someone to stay alive.

'Not a danger to others' - or themselves. They can be institutionalised for either. When someone wants to kill themselves due to a mental problem of course we shouldn't let them kill themselves. Ask a previously suicidal person, any previously suicidal person, who has overcome their mental problems if we should have let them kill themselves and not a single one would agree with your point of view. People who do not have the working mental faculties to make a decision regarding their own life, or rather, death, should never be allowed to kill themselves.

[Rlyeh]

1. Well, yeah. How is this silly? While you may not agree with it there can be no doubt it is actually quite a reasonable thing to suggest, since, well, most euthanasian laws were brought in, in part, for this reason. And in some countries the doctor actually only 'helps' the patient kill themselves. While on the other hand, your point definitely was silly.

Not really. It is asinine to expect someone to go to such primitive measures to kill themselves when a more painless method is available.

2. And, actually, you quite clearly were responding to me. The entire text of your post (post 28):

I'm not sure why you're confused then. You want the government to have no part, so who regulates euthanasia?

[Hasina]

'Not a danger to others' - or themselves. They can be institutionalised for either. When someone wants to kill themselves due to a mental problem of course we shouldn't let them kill themselves. Ask a previously suicidal person, any previously suicidal person, who has overcome their mental problems if we should have let them kill themselves and not a single one would agree with your point of view. People who do not have the working mental faculties to make a decision regarding their own life, or rather, death, should never be allowed to kill themselves.

I don't need to ask for first hand experience in that mind set.

[ExpandMyMind]

Not really. It is asinine to expect someone to go to such primitive measures to kill themselves when a more painless method is available.

I'm not sure why you're confused then. You want the government to have no part, so who regulates euthanasia?

1. OverSword provided a painless method. And what would be painful about landing on concrete from 100ft? You'd be dead before you would have a chance to feel it.

2. I want the government to have no part in taking the life of a physically healthy, mentally unhealthy person, no. I want the government to have no part in taking the life of someone who can take their own. I want doctors to have no part in this either.

[ExpandMyMind]

I don't need to ask for first hand experience in that mind set.

I'm not following Hasina. You can't ask for first hand experience, as it would then be, by definition, second hand information because you had to ask someone else for it. Do you mean you have first hand experience?

[Beckys_Mom]

It's understandable that some ppl feel a line was crossed here, because they aren't well-informed over the actual issue.

The twins went through all the steps for a year and half, consulted 3 doctors (as is required) and tried a myriad of medications and treatments..but many they couldn't even try because it would have effect on their eyes and other issues.

One of them had respiratory problems and could only sleep sitting upwards. The other one had trouble walking after a neck operation where they think they damaged bone marrow.

And now they were already almost completely blind, not a lil bit.

The twins informed every doctor that they would kill themselves, so ultimately their euthanasia was granted.

Saying that ppl should just commit suicide because that would somehow be better are very close minded. Suicide leads to a series of issues: family members that are crushed because knowing your family members/children committed suicide isn't an acceptable thought. Also, suicide isn't free or anything, the government gets involved either way.

With euthanasia there is a higher sense of acceptance, since family members see it more as a choice than an act of despair. This is something worth considering instead of just dismissing.

Also, these arguments that they should've just driven their car of some place or shot themselves : they were almost completely blind

waddaya want? That they call their mom and ask if she can drive em off a cliff?

Please.

And yanno, all these attitudes here where you just demand that these twins should've just buckled up and faced a life of darkness is very arrogant. Maybe try and have some empathy and understand that it must've been extremely daunting realising that soon they would not be able to communicate anymore. The reality would've been that they would be totally dependant of others and they wouldn't be able to do much anymore, except be condemned to being locked in themselves where images of their memory slowly start to slip away.

Simply demanding that they should just getter over this and keep on living, because you ppl refuse to even think about how reality was for them, is ridiculous.

Every last word of that is a great depth of understanding and looking at it from a broader scale.. I agree 100% with you..

I feel not everyone has put enough thought into this..

It is easy to sit and cry out - It's selfish, what about their family and so on ? Thing is, if you took a deeper look into the actual story itself, you would likely not be as quick to cast judgement... I am not saying to anyone here that they should all just change their minds and go for a different view, but I feel that not everyone has given it as much thought as they believed they had done

Questions I asked myself was - If I had been through all the twins had done, and I was in a world of darkness and silence, how would I communicate ? How could I cope with every day life? What does being blind and deaf feel like?

To make a final decision like these middle aged twins did, I feel there is a lot more to it than so many like to think

Edited January 16, 2013 by Beckys_Mom