Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

[Abramelin]

i was not really commenting on the extent of the territory , but just that the middle-sea may have had a bore run up it , hence the name boorne ..........like the one that runs up the severn river

The name of the river wasn't about a 'bore', it was about a BORDER, a boundary.

The former name of the Frisian Middle Sea had to do with just that.

It was a clear hint.

When was that 'boundary' established? Think about that.

Sorry, but I am really getting frustrated about people who did not take the trouble to read what I have posted, or anyone else's posts here.

Yes, this is a gigantic thread, I do know, but I have also explained how you can search this thread for information.

Just don't tell me you have missed that....... I have posted many times about how to search part -1- of this thread.

.

Edited February 12, 2013 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

For Menno Knul (and by God, I hope he gets it)

Edited February 12, 2013 by Abramelin

[NO-ID-EA]

The name of the river wasn't about a 'bore', it was about a BORDER, a boundary.

The former name of the Frisian Middle Sea had to do with just that.

It was a clear hint.

When was that 'boundary' established? Think about that.

Sorry, but I am really getting frustrated about people who did not take the trouble to read what I have posted, or anyone else's posts here.

Yes, this is a gigantic thread, I do know, but I have also explained how you can search this thread for information.

Just don't tell me you have missed that....... I have posted many times about how to search part -1- of this thread.

.

What a joke .....you posted that you wanted people to come with a different perspective , and some different ideas... i am afraid i have come to the conclusion you only want people who agree with whatever you think . and you make a point of not considering other peoples ideas and thoughts.

its all yours Abe , i wont ( bore) you with my thoughts any more ......... have a nice life

[Abramelin]

What a joke .....you posted that you wanted people to come with a different perspective , and some different ideas... i am afraid i have come to the conclusion you only want people who agree with whatever you think . and you make a point of not considering other peoples ideas and thoughts.

its all yours Abe , i wont ( bore) you with my thoughts any more ......... have a nice life

I don't want people to just agree with me, I want people to contradict me with valid arguments. I thereby learn

Just ask a Cormac or an Everdred. They contradicted me (in the "Atlantis" thread) with very valid arguments, and they based their arguments on the knowledge they had about the topic we were arguing about.

I respect people having knowledge I have not, but I don't respect bullsh1t.

Grow some balls, No.

Don't be offended that easily, ok?

I wasn't out to offend you.

.

Edited February 12, 2013 by Abramelin

[Van Gorp]

NO-ID-EA: I find your ideas nevertheless interesting if that matters ...

Bore, born, berne (cfr the verb boren in Dutch = 'drill', or to be born) -> find a way out/in (out of the uterus or into the land or into another river -> full of alcohol and you can see it -> bourré in french :-)

Boord also plausible (i think there can be a link with bore -> the border is the place that makes in and out, there is the friction) -> berm

As with border, the 'Rein' or 'Rijn' -> this can also meanto be just a border (also a river, but does not have to be) -> http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/rein2

[Abramelin]

Gawd......sigh..............

[Van Gorp]

Sigh back.

[Abramelin]

From this link:

http://books.google.nl/books?id=qr54JwrLi_sC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=Boorne,+Bordine+or+Bordena&source=bl&ots=7ojEfqdmFE&sig=LQfxfdOhhtb418wSypIi3q7fwTg&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=lo4pT9v4DIibOvjX-bYC&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=true

The oldest name of the precursor of the Middelzee/Middle Sea is Bordine, Bordne or Bordena and it means 'grensrivier' or border river or boundary river.

And according to the OLB it was the western boundary of the Fryan empire. The small problem is that the Middle Sea arose from the Bordine as late as the 10th century. That's only some 3200 years too late for the OLB version...

[Knul]

For Menno Knul (and by God, I hope he gets it)

I showed the picture to my cat. She was not amused.

[Van Gorp]

About those 2 middle seas:

• one we know now as the Mediterranean, and also referred to in OLB as middelsê,
  
• other in upper Netherlands
  

and for some like Abe seemingly possibly the last one meant as western 'boundary' of the area where the Frisians were living

By morne paldon wi ovir it uter ende thes aster-sê, by êvind an thene middelsê

I think some other relevant quotes are these:

Before the bad time came our country was the most beautiful in the world. The sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost.

... we had many different names... All those who lived between Denmark and the Sandval, now the Scheldt, were called Stuurlieden (pilots), Zeekampers (naval men), and Angelaren (fishermen).

So the sun rose higher and seldom frost (how odd??) -> so than closer to the equator than nowadays -> northpole (slope of earth) was different by which region at the north sea incl Danemark had seldom frost

-> their north was located more to our north-west, their west more to our south-west, their east more to our north-east

Besides that: if there were Frisians living near the Scheldt, it's rather strange to mention the Dutch middelzee as the Western boundary of the Frisians.

[Abramelin]

Yes, Van Gorp, I know about the discrepancy, that there was also Fryan territory south-west of the Frisian Middel Sea.

I have also said long ago that the North Sea itself may have been this Middel Sea because it is kind of strange the North Sea is never mentiond in the OLB, but the Baltic is ("Balda", or angry sea as it was suggested).

Wralda's Sea would then simply be the Wereldzee or "world sea", the (Atlantic) Ocean.

war-l-d 34, wr-al-d, afries., st. F. (i): nhd. Welt; ne. world; Hw.: vgl. an. ver‡ld, ae.

weorold, anfrk. werold, as. werold*, ahd. weralt*; Q.: R, W, E, H; E.: germ.

*weraldi-, *weraldiz, st. F. (i), Zeitalter, Menschen?; vgl. idg. *øÂros, Adj., M.,

kräftig, Mann, Pokorny 1177; idg. idg. *al- (2), *h2el-, V., wachsen (V.) (1),

nähren, Pokorny 26; W.: nfries. wrâld, wrâd, wraud; W.: saterl. wareld; W.:

nnordfries. wrald, wrâl;

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/afries-W.pdf

But what is known from the early middle ages is that the North Sea was once called the Mare Frisicum or Frisian Sea because it was dominated by the Frisians, and the OLB says that only the Frysans were allowed to sail Wralda's Sea.

So that combined made made me think that the North Sea was Wralda's Sea, or maybe that Wralda's Sea consisted of the North Sea plus the Atlantic. And if the North Sea was (part of) Wralda's Sea, it explains why the North Sea is never mentioned in the OLB.

From the Doggerland thread I learned that one of the most ancient names for the North Sea was "Hel" or "Halja" or similar (Frisian) names. No hints to that name in the OLB either.

.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Abramelin

[Knul]

About those 2 middle seas:

• one we know now as the Mediterranean, and also referred to in OLB as middelsê,
  
• other in upper Netherlands
  

and for some like Abe seemingly possibly the last one meant as western 'boundary' of the area where the Frisians were living

By morne paldon wi ovir it uter ende thes aster-sê, by êvind an thene middelsê

I think some other relevant quotes are these:

Before the bad time came our country was the most beautiful in the world. The sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost.

... we had many different names... All those who lived between Denmark and the Sandval, now the Scheldt, were called Stuurlieden (pilots), Zeekampers (naval men), and Angelaren (fishermen).

So the sun rose higher and seldom frost (how odd??) -> so than closer to the equator than nowadays -> northpole (slope of earth) was different by which region at the north sea incl Danemark had seldom frost

-> their north was located more to our north-west, their west more to our south-west, their east more to our north-east

Besides that: if there were Frisians living near the Scheldt, it's rather strange to mention the Dutch middelzee as the Western boundary of the Frisians.

The Frisian territory is described from Weser (Wrsara) till Sincfal (Schelde), in the Middle Ages described as the Seven Sealands. Abramelin just does not admit that he is wrong.

[Abramelin]

The Frisian territory is described from Weser (Wrsara) till Sincfal (Schelde), in the Middle Ages described as the Seven Sealands. Abramelin just does not admit that he is wrong.

I think I just said I was aware of the discepancy.

[Abramelin]

The Mediterranean is not west of the Baltic (the "East Sea", or the OLB Aster-Se), but south. So in this passage of the OLB I think that another 'Middle Sea' is meant.

It is at least another coincidence worth noting that the medieval Frisian Middle Sea originated from a river which name meant "border river".

.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

What's also interesting is that the Danes call the North Sea "Vesterhavet" or West Sea.

From an old post:

http://www.unexplain...85#entry4193333\

This is a map from around the beginning of the 16th century made by the German cartographer Erhard Etzlaub.

The "Wester See" (Western Sea) is located west of the Dutch provinces of Noord-and South Holland and Zeeland and West Flanders, former Frisian territory (and former OLB "Westland").

Map of the Kingdom of Friesland during the Middle Ages.

+++

EDIT:

Jahrbuch des Vereins für Niederdeutsche Sprachforschung (1875)

http://archive.org/details/jahrbuchdesvere01spragoog

Bruder Nigels dänische Reimchronik niederdeutsch

(Brother Nigels' Danish Rhyme Chronicle - Low German)

( a bit furher it says, "Nigels, Erikes broder", or "Nigels, Erik's brother")

95

Darvmme ick twir Norwegen want;

Fol. 51». So dede ick ok mit Schotlant,

2655 Ick Engelant wan vnde HuberTant

Vnde Swedenrijck vnde so Curlant,

Biarmie lant*) vnde Orken oe

Vnde andere deine lant in der wester see.

Dar kreech ick groten schaden van vngewapende mannen

26G0 Mer dan van den gewapenden Bomeren altosamen.

It's from the end of the 15th century:

http://books.google.nl/books?id=nzqLp6td3z4C&pg=RA1-PA15&lpg=RA1-PA15&dq=Bruder+Nigels+d%C3%A4nische+Reimchronik+niederdeutsch&source=bl&ots=vy-huoUMjX&sig=KcXSlulio2YOCup8YA-pF12IxVE&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=5N8gUZ2WHeWC4gSfz4DwCw&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Bruder%20Nigels%20d%C3%A4nische%20Reimchronik%20niederdeutsch&f=false

.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

The next old post is a reminder of that list of several Germanic tribes that ended up (or may have ended up) in Ireland, Scotland and England, tribes of whom we hear nothing of in the OLB, but who - as I said before - may have moved there because of the floods of around 360 BCE that hit the coasts of the Low Lands as mentioned by the Frisian historiographer Schotanus (or the 306 BCE flood from the OLB).

Add to that that the "Fresen" were known in Irish legends, plus that a British 19th century writer thought that the Gaelic "Lochlan" was nothing else but these low lands between Rhine and Weser. And add to that again that - at least according to one source - the Irish "Land below the Seas" was these flooded areas of the "Low Lands" (in case of confusion, read the entry about the Irish in my OLB blog - see signature)

Menapii: a Germanic tribe living to the south west of the Frisii; spoke a language closely related to Frisian as we can see by the Lord's Prayer in the Menapian language in Overwijn's book about the OLB; probably moved to Ireland;

Chauci: a Germanic tribe to the east of the Frisians; were very civilized according to Tacitus and were being decribed almost like the OLB describes the Fryans; but they were also sea raiders and often hooked up with the Frisians; linguistic indications they went raiding and settling as far as Iberia ("Kaukaioi"); probably moved to Ireland too and were there the neighbours of the Menapii;

Parisi: a Celtic/Germanic (?) tribe living near the Seine; some say their name means Frisii; probably moved to Yorkshire, England. The Parisi in England had a different culture from the surrounding tribes (and in England their name is also explained as "of the wetlands, low pastures", "herdsmen", "commanders");

Belgae: a group of Celtic/Germanic (?) tribes living in present day Belgium and Northern France; probably they were the Fir Bolg of the Irish legends; the Parisi were probably one of them (??);

Taexali: a group of very probably Frisian settlers (lived near a bay in Scotland that was once called Frisian Bay); did they come from Texel (old name Texla) after the flood in 360 or 350 BC, a flood mentioned by the Frisian historiographer Schotanus? Same could be true for the aforementioned tribes. Some of their hillforts were called "Laws" (think OLB citadel on Texland; the etymology of Texla is based on a Germanic word for direction, "to the right". But 'right' has also another meaning aside from a direction...);

Firaesi: a tribe living in Scandia which was an island according to Ptolemy but was actually the southern part of Sweden:

The Firaesi (Latinization) or Phiraisoi (original Greek) are a people listed in Ptolemy’s Geography (2.10).

Ptolemy’s view of the region is not very precise, but he places them on the east side of what he believed to be an island, Scandia. The presence of the Goutai, or Goths, in the center, identifies Scandia fairly certainly as the southern portion of the Scandinavian peninsula. As to whether the east of it was the east coast of Sweden or the coast of Finland opposite, the latter is perhaps too remote for detailed knowledge by Ptolemy or his sources.

There is in fact a possible Germanic derivation of Phiraisoi. They are in the same region as the Favonae, who may have been residents of Småland. Old Norse and Old Icelandic firar, Old English firas, are fairly close to Firaesi and mean “men, human beings” or “Volk” in German. As it happens, Uppland was traditionally divived in Folkland, four provinces, which lost their jurisdictional importance in 1296.

Koebler’s Old Norse Etymological Database in the Indo-European Etymological Database online at Leiden University gives a Proto-Indo-European root of *perkwus, becoming Germanic *ferhwioz by Grimm's Law. The root meaning is “oak”, but the oak was regarded as a symbol of hardness, toughness and strength (see also Harudes).

With regard to people it means “life force” or especially “power”, in the sense of the collective power of the folk. It would be a descriptive epithet of the *teuta-, “tribe, people”. This connotation is probably not devoid of a military sense, as the root went into Hittite, a very early branch of Indo-European, as “army”. Uppland then would have been a densely populated and at the time fairly conservative remnant of Indo-European culture. If the Indo-European penetration of Europe can be regarded as a very slow invasion, its Schwerpunkt, or “heavy point”, came to rest in Uppland.

The Firaesi are not mentioned elsewhere in history, perhaps because of language changes and the preference of folk for firar. More information is undoubtedly to be gleaned from archaeology.

Firaesi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Firaesi

According to accepted history, the Frisians originally came from the area of Denmark and Southern Sweden (around 1700 BC they went on the move). Does their name mean "men, folk, human beings, the people"? Also think about the Irish "Fir" which means the same...

Old Prussians: a Baltic tribe, aka "Aesti" according to Tactitus. Lived in an area near the "Friesisches Haff", Poland; spoke a language called "Pruteni" which was, again according to Tacitus, the same language as spoken in Brittain by the "Pretani". Now Google "Pruteni", and see where you end up, lol. Yes, Rutheni, Russ..

I once fabricated an original name for the Proto Frisians, "Phruisii", and suggested that from that name the others developed: Frisii, Fireasi, Prusi, Parisi (and there are those who'd like to add: Farsi or Parsi..).

And today I found this:

The Rise of the Celts - Henri Hubert

http://books.google....e Rhine&f=false

Never heard of these sources before, but it sort of proves my point.

.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

An old Celtic name for the North Sea is "Morimarusa", and is always said to mean "Dead Sea". This is then explained by saying that lots of river water can settle on the heavier salt sea water by which it calms down the waves, or make the sea appear 'dead'.

But if you consider my former post, it could simply mean "Sea of the Dead" or something, because of its many catastrophical floods that forced the surviving tribes to go on the move.

.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

I have called Overwijn's ideas, expressed in his book about the OLB - 1941/1951 - as 'somewhat' far out. And that's because his book was heavily influenced by Blavatsky's cooked up fantasies.

He was also influenced by Velikovsky's ideas, but to a much lesser degree. I have to look it up, but as far as I remember Overwijn did not use Velikovsky's extreme idea about planet Jupiter 'giving birth' to planet Venus around 3000 BCE and thereby causing all kinds of global disasters when it settled in its current orbit. If that had really happened, I think (but I am no astro-physicist) that all that would be left of our solar system would be the Sun and the gaseous planets, plus a newly formed huge asteroid belt and we would not be here discussing the OLB.

On the other hand, Overwijn did his best to use the Celtic languages to explain (much of) the OLB language/words. Considering what I posted just before, he may even have had a point there.

.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Now this is more like it:

Dartmoor burial site gives up its 4,000-year-old secrets

An archaeological find on Dartmoor is exciting academics from around the world – Martin Hesp has been finding out why the 4,500-year-old remains have been given international importance.

When archaeologists unearthed the contents of a tomb in a remote part of Dartmoor 18 months ago they had no idea they were about to find an internationally important treasure trove.

But that is what the damp dank contents turned out to be. Now academics from all over the country and abroad are taking a big interest in what came out of the prehistoric cremation burial chamber from the lonesome heights of Whitehorse Hill.

The remarkably well-preserved items found inside are allowing historians one of the best glimpses of life in Southern England over 4,000 years ago that they’ve ever had.

The 18-month story from discovery to academic analysis is the subject of a BBC television programme being aired tonight – but the Western Morning News can reveal that the early Bronze Age organic remains and artefacts include prehistoric jewellery and finely executed tailoring.

What’s perhaps most remarkable of all is that the find included beads made of amber – a substance that doesn’t occur within 1,000 miles of Dartmoor.

[...]

Another feature of the cist’s contents might not excite a layman, but paleo-archaeologists from several countries have been fascinated by some layers of volcanic ash which were found.

“We know there was some volcanic activity back then, perhaps from Mount Hekla (in Iceland) – so all the geographers and climate change people are excited,” said Mrs Marchand. “It’s the first time we’ve found evidence of this on Dartmoor and it must have been pretty unpleasant to be out there at the time.”

http://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.nl/2013/02/dartmoor-burial-site-gives-up-its-4000.html

Over 4000 years old, and then 4500 years old... what is it?

Amber hints at contact with the eastern North Sea

And they found proof of an active volcano .... of around 2200 BCE??

[Abramelin]

Here's what appears to be the original article, plus video:

Samantha Smith looks at what has been called the most significant historical find ever on Dartmoor - the discovery of an internationally important prehistoric burial site.

The 4,000-year-old remains of the Bronze Age grave or cist, which were found in a peat bog, are set to rewrite the history books.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...ngland-21445658

Does anyone have more (detailed) info about this find?

.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Bronze Age: 2300 - 900 BC in Central Europe / Nordic Bronze Age 1800 - 500 BC

2300 BC marks the approximate beginning of the Unetice Culture (emerging out of the

Beaker folk group) found on both sides of the Elbe River to the Baltic Sea in what is

today the Czech Republic, Western Poland and Germany. It represents a fusion of the

Corded Ware and Beaker traditions and are considered by many to be proto – Celtic.

--

In Conclusion: The Cimbrians, at least as far back as the latter part of the 2nd Century

BC, but with persuasive evidence for a much earlier date (6th Century), resided in what is

today Himmerland County, Jutland, Denmark. Some ultimately settled in the Vestfold

area of Southeast Norway and perhaps Hordaland. The writings of Classical Greek and

Roman authors make it clear despite their location in the Germanic north, they spoke a

Celtic language related to Gaulish P-Celt, originated in the Celtic lands between Gaul and

Moravia with prongs in Jutland as well as both sides of the Alps, and had a culture that

was overwhelmingly Celtic. Their Celtic affiliation lasted until some time between the

3rd and 5th Centuries AD when they lost their tribal identity subsequent to emigrating to

England during either Anglian or Viking times. Archaeological data confirms that their

culture was Celtic, with some of the most impressive Celtic finds in Europe coming from

Jutland and Fyn.

http://www.davidkfau...-Chronology.pdf

Shouldn't what I underlined not be something like"proto-Frisian" or "Fryan, or a Germanic language?

.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

A 'bit' more:

Origins of the Cimbri – German or Celt?:

Before delving into the topic in any depth it is

essential to clear up one matter which seems to have created the largest swirl of

controversy – were the Cimbri Germans, or were they Celts? Since they resided in the

heart of the northern Germanic, southern Scandinavian region the answer should be

obvious, however what seems apparent may only be an illusion.

-

In 1877 Rawlinson wrote a very

well researched monograph entitled, “On the Ethnography of the Cimbri” which was

presented to the Anthropological Institute. He specifically acknowledged that there were

two theories of origins – Germanic and Celtic. He outlines the essentials of each, and

provides 6 lines of evidence (e.g., their manner of making war; the documented

participation of their women in battle) that point strongly to the Cimbri being Celtic. He

believes that some of the opinions in favor of a German origin come from prejudices of

Germans who would rather believe that the famous Cimbri (who lived among Germanic

people) were culturally and biologically German.

It appears that there is resistance shown by some modern writers to believing that there

could be a large Celtic enclave among the Germanics. In atlases of the Celts not one

chooses to put an “inconvenient” blotch of color on the Jutland Peninsula far removed

from the Celtic homeland – yet have no difficulty in circumscribing a region in modern

Turkey (Galatia) where three Celtic outlier tribes of the Iron Age are placed. An example

is Konstam (2003) in his “Historical Atlas of the Celtic World”. On page 26 he calls the

Cimbri “a proto-Celtic culture” and in the rest of the book calls them “Germanic”. On

the map of migrations in the chapter “Celtic Origins” he shows an arrow from the proto -

Celtic territory circa 1000 BC heading north to the tip of the Jutland Peninsula and labels

this, “Slav – German Migrations”. Some recent authors, via maps included with the text,

appear to acknowledge the migration of Alpine peoples to Denmark in La Tene Celtic

times (e.g., 500 BC). However they appear reticent to explain the northward pointing

arrows. An example is the monumental work, “The Celtic World” edited by Green

(1995) with an arrow (unexplained) from the La Tene Celtic territory to Northern Jutland

(p. xxiv). A very interesting exception to the general reticence noted above is a map in

the comprehensive (more than 100 authors) companion book (edited by Moscati et al)

relating to the all – Europe exhibition entitled “The Celts”, held in Venice in 1991. Here,

under “The Era of the Oppida: Second-First Century B.C.”, the map shows sites clustered

across Europe from the Balkans in the east to the Bay of Biscay in the west, but with

nothing north of mid Germany – except Gunderstrup and Dejbjerg in Northern Denmark,

and Rynkeby on the Island of Fyn (Funnen) in Denmark (pp.420-421). Latham (1844)

wrote, the supposed presence of Kelts in the Cimbric Chersonesus [Jutland] has

complicated more than one question in ethnography (p. clix). It appears that the rationale

is that the Cimbri were in such an isolated pocket, so it is best to simply ignore their

Celtic origins - but ironically chapters on their migrations appear in most books

pertaining to the Celts.

-

Herm (1976) goes to some length in an attempt to clear up the outstanding questions. He

interprets Strabo’s statements (see later for details) in light of the meaning of the word

“Germani” at the time it was used. The useage did not mean what it does today. Strabo

stated, "Thus I imagine that the Romans who lived in Gaul called them ‘Germani’ because

they want to indicate that they were the ‘authentic’", the real Celts. Germani means in

their language ‘genuine’ in the sense of ‘original’. Herm concludes, the Cimbri were the

very heart of that family. They were the most Celtic of the Celts (p. 67).

-

Peter Berresford Ellis, in “The Celtic Empire” (1990), reviewed the

available evidence and came to the following conclusion. The contemporary evidence,

however, seems clear enough. The Cimbri and the Teutones spoke Celtic, had Celtic

names and used Celtic weapons. The very names of the two tribes were Celtic. They

were, then, Celts. And, eventually, they formed alliances with other Celtic tribes,

creating a large Celtic army which, once more, nearly brought about the downfall of

Rome (p.121).

Hence it is concluded that the original or early Cimbri were both culturally (at least at one

time) and genetically a Celtic isolate within a sea of Germanic and Scandinavian people.

Hence they were more similar genetically to the La Tene Celts of Switzerland and tribes

such as the Helvetii. They may have born scant resemblance to the Germanic Danes

who, circa 500 AD, apparently absorbed the Jutland Peninsula into their territory with the

result being that the Cimbri lost their ethnic – tribal identity and became an apparently

indistinguishable part of the Danish fabric (see below for a more detailed analysis).

The Language of the Cimbri: That the Cimbri spoke a Celtic language is attested to by

the reports of Pliny the Elder (circa 77 AD) who stated that Philemon wrote that, the

Cimbris word Morimarusa means the Dead Sea, as far as the Promentory of Rubeas,

beyond which they name it the Cronian Sea (“Naturalis Historiae”, Libri IV, xiii, line

95).

-

Other evidence as to the language spoken by the Cimbri can be seen in the

actions of the Roman intelligence service of Marius, run by Sertorius, which sent spies

who spoke Gaulish Celtic into the Cimbri camp in 101 BC. They were able to

understand the language of the Cimbri so they could report back details of importance to

their masters (Hubert, 1934).

The meaning of the name Cimbri, according to some sources, derives from kimme (rim)

and thus “people of the coast”. As will be described later, some consider that Cimbri =

Cimmeri (the Cimmerians being an ancient people who “disappeared” from Western Asia

about 800 BC). There is a 600 or so year gap between the historical documentation

relating to each, time enough for dialect changes although linguists view as likely Cimbri

changing to Cimmeri rather than the other way around via Grimm’s law with mb

morphing to mm (Markale, 1976). Furthermore, there are different variants of Celtic,

other than Q-Celt (e.g., Irish) and P-Celt (e.g., Welsh and Gaulish).

Those knowledgeable about the language(s) such as reported in the Encyclopedia Britannica

1911 state that what is found as an mm sound in Welsh would be mb in other forms of

Celtic so that in Welsh “cymmer” is equivalent to “combor” in Old Irish (the latter on a

time scale being an earlier version of Celtic) and means “confluence of brooks”. Some

sources note that the Welsh term for themselves is Cymri that in Brythonic (P-Celt)

means, “companions” or “tribesmen”. One expert offers an opinion that Cimbri might

relate to Kom-roghes, which in General Celtic signifies, "the fellow countrypeople"

(Gavin-Hauser, personal communication, 2007). This would perhaps relate to their status

as kin to the Teutones who resided near them, were their allies in the famous campaign of

113 to 101 BC, and whose name means “the people” in all Celtic languages.

http://www.davidkfau...-Chronology.pdf

Cimbri:

a Germanic or Celtic people, supposed to have originated in Jutland, who invaded Gaul and northern Italy, and were destroyed by the Romans in 101 b.c.

(And that was after the Romans got beaten major several times by these same Cimbri)

http://dictionary.re...m/browse/cimbri

http://www.unrv.com/...bri-teutons.php

So these ancient Fryans spoke a Celtic language??

But that is not the impression I got from reading the OLB....

.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

These "Germanic" (or ancient Frisian or "Fryan") speaking people seem to have adapted quite well to their Gaelic neigbours when they settled in Ireland and Scotland:

We have illustration here of the fact that the Fenians

were not confined to Erin. In this ancient poem on the

battle of Gabhra we read of the bands of the Feinn of

Alban — Alban being the old name of Scotland, north of the

Firth of Forth and Clyde — and the supreme King of

Breatan — Breatan being southern Scotland, of which Dun-

breaton, now Dunbarton, was the chief seat — belonging to

the Order of the Feinne of Alban ; and also that the Fians

of Lochlan were powerful. Now, Lochlan was an ancient

name for Germany north of the Rhine; but when the Nor-

wegian and Danish pirates appeared in the ninth century

they were called Lochlanaels, and the name of Lochlan was

transferred to Norway and Denmark. It has been argued *

from this that the Fenians were not a militia of Gaels, but

that they were a distinct Celtic race, connected with the

only two races who are spoken of as having come in oldest

time from Lochlan, namely, the Tuatha de Danann and the

Cruithne. These are thought to have been some of the

Celts who preceded the Germanic peoples now occupyino-

the north German shore and Scandinavia. The Tuatha de

Danann (people of the Dan country) landed in Scotland,

and, approaching the headlands of the north-western shore,

gave to the country the name of Alban (Highland or Alp-

land, the words Alb and Alp being of one Celtic origin),

which, as Albion, became the first native name of the whole

island. The Tuatha de Danann passed, as tradition has

already told us, into Erin, and partly occupied the land

before the Milesian brothers came from Spain. The

Cruithne, whom some connect with the Picts, first landed

from Lochlan in Erin, and migrated thence to Alban. To

the bards, then, of these northern Celts, who had not

reached our shores by way of southern Europe, the Fenians

and their poets may have been allied most closely. The

traditions of the Cruithne, in describing their migrations,

even name as the mythic poet of their race one whom they

called " Huasein."

http://www02.us.arch...01morl_djvu.txt

Who were these Feinne ? To what age do they

belong ? Mr. Skene, our highest authority on all Celtic

matters, replies that they were one of those races which

came from Lochlan, and preceded the Milesian Scots,

both in Erin and in Alban. Lochlan is the most ancient

name of that part of North Germany which lies between

the mouths of the Rhine and the Elbe, before the name

was transferred to Scandinavia. From that North

German sea-board came the earliest race that peopled

Ireland, and Alban or the Scottish Highlands. During

their occupation, Ireland and the north of Scotland

were regarded as one territory, and the population

passed freely from one island to the other at a time

'when race, not territory, was the great bond of asso-

ciation.'

http://www.archive.o...01shai_djvu.txt

The Romans sent Celtic speaking messengers to this "Germanic" tribe.

A tribe, the "Jutlanders" who had no problems at all talking with their "Germanic" Frisian/Fryan neighbours., well, that's according to te OLB.

How odd.

There are times I think I should start a new thread about the origin of the Scottish and Irish people....

.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

I have mentioned the Nordwestblock theory in this thread already, but here's something new:

Although the language of the Belgae was replaced by Latin (the ancestor of modern French) in the wake of Caesar’s military campaigns, some modern linguists believe that this zone constituted a distinct Nordwestblock, perhaps with its own Belgian Indo-European language that was neither Celtic nor Germanic (but possibly related to both). More controversially, the linguist Theo Vennemann proposed a possible Vasconic (Basque) substrate in languages of Atlantic Europe, including languages of the Belgic sub-region [3].

[3] Most linguists have rejected Vennemann’s Vasconic substratum theory. However, genetic data support the possibility of gene flow from Basque-like populations along the Atlantic zone of Western Europe. See “Old Europes (Part Two)” at http://dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2009-08-29.pdf. Although evidence of gene flow from Basque-like populations does not necessarily suggest a Basque-like language substrate, it supports the possibility of population contacts that potentially could have influenced local languages.

http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2010-09-30.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordwestblock

[Apol]

Look what I found yesterday on page 200 in Fridtjof Nansen's book In Northern Mists – Arctic Exploration in Early Times, Vol. 2:

The Arabs of the West came in contact with the North through the Norman Vikings, whom they called Maǵûs (cf. p. 55), and who in the ninth century and later made several predatory expeditions to the Spanish Peninsula. Their first attack on the Moorish kingdom in Spain seems to have taken place in 844, when, amongst other things, they took and sacked Seville. After that expedition, an Arab writer tells us, friendly relations were established between the sultan of Spain, ‘Abd ar-Raḥmân II., and “the king of the Maǵûs,” and, according to an account in Abu’l-Khaṭṭâb ‘Omar Ibn Diḥya ^[183] (ob. circa 1235), the former is even said to have sent an [201] ambassador, al-Ġazâl, to the latter’s country. Ibn Diḥya says that he took the account from an author named Tammâm Ibn ‘Alqama (ob. 896), who again is said to have had it from al-Ġazâl’s own mouth. It is obviously untrustworthy, but may possibly have a historical kernel. The king of the Maǵûs had first sent an ambassador to ‘Abd ar-Raḥmân to sue for peace (?); and al-Ġazâl accompanied him home again, in a well-appointed ship of his own, to bring the answer and a present. They arrived first at an island on the borders of the land of the Maǵûs people.^[184] From thence they went to the king, who lived on a great island in the ocean, where there were streams of water and gardens. It was three days’ journey or 300 [Arab] miles from the continent. “There was an innumerable multitude of the Maǵûs, and in the vicinity were many other islands, great and small, all inhabited by Maǵûs, and the part of the continent that lies near them also belongs to them, for a distance of many days’ journey. They were then heathens (Maǵûs); now they are Christians, for they have abandoned their old religion of fire-worship,^[185] only the inhabitants of certain islands have retained it. There the people still marry their mothers or sisters, and other abominations are also committed there [cf. Strabo on the Irish, vol. i. p. 81]. With these the others are in a state of war, and they carry them away into slavery.”

183. Cf. R. Dozy, 1881, pp. 267, ff.

184. This island may have been Noirmoutier, in the country of the Normans of the Loire (according to A. Bugge).

185. It is the name “Maǵûs,” from the Greek Μάγος (Magian, fire-worshipper, cf. p. 55), that led the author into this error. Maǵûs was used collectively of heathens in general, but especially of the Norse Vikings [cf. Dozy, 1881, ii. p. 271].

The book was published simultaneously in 1911 by William Heinemann, London, by Frederick A. Stokes Co., New York and by Arthur H. Clark Co., Glendale CA.

It was republished by Filiquarian Publishing, LLC, Minneapolis MN/Qontro Classic Books, Bel Air CA, in 2010; and by Ulan Press, New York, in 2011.

But I found it here:

www.gutenberg.org/files/40634/40634-h/40634-h.htm