Corporal punishment - For or against?

[IamsSon]

It's funny all this talk of training good soldiers. Does anyone realize that the military does not practice corporal punishment?

Of course it doesn't, because the recruits are old enough to understand spoken language. The comparison had to do with the fact that recruits are as ignorant of military life as babies are of life in general, and that the strictly regimented and painful training are absolutely necessary to insure the recruit will not harm himself or others as he is trained to become a soldier.

[CrimsonKing]

It's funny all this talk of training good soldiers. Does anyone realize that the military does not practice corporal punishment?

Even this attitude of peoples undisciplined "brats" running around seeths with intolerance and aggression. I have given solid examples of cultures that are highly disciplined yet do not use pain as a deterrent, and who behave just fine. People have this illusion that kids that are spanked are somehow more disciplined and controlled. BS. I could not find anything to support that, and plenty of kids do just fine without it. In my community probably a very few hit their kids, and by and large they are all well behaved aside from the normal age appropriate energy, and I know probably more kids in my community than anyone else

Does any one who is for it actually care about actual research and psychological studies on children and the effects it has on them and their decisions and choices. What is your basis for claiming that it is more effective than non violent methods? I hope it's not your observing of these "brats" running all over the place. Because we eat out at least once a week, and I don't see them. My kids are certainly not allowed to behave this way and I don't hit them.

No matter which way you spin it, causing pain to another person to get them to comply is violent. It might be mildly violent, but studies have shown that defiant children build up tolerances to physical punishment forcing the parent to upgrade their abuse to achieve the desired results.

The majority of doctors, phsycologists, and actual scientists pretty much agree on the issue. Are you going to let your kid scarff down candy? Are you going to feed them cup o noodles, burgers, and pizza everyday? Why not? Because you know it's unhealthy because we now have actual data that tells us this. But you will still strike your kid because it was done to you, and you consider yourself well adjusted. I have seen the responses of people on this thread advocating punishing kids with pain... im not buying it.

http://www.slate.com...re_the_rod.html

http://www.scienceda...10726111109.htm

http://www.scientifi...or-not-to-spank

http://usatoday30.us...lems/55964610/1

As i have said i do not disagree with everything you have said,but not every and all situations are the same.Im sorry but a degree in economics does not qualify you as a all knowing being capable of dealing with any and all situations.Some people no matter how well raised still grow up and go to prison.Some who grew up in very poor enviroments grow up to be exceptional adults.A lot has to do with the person themselves,no matter what anyone says we are not all the same.Some people learn better by reading,some by hearing,and some by doing.You are correct in saying that children are not soldiers,as i have said some learn differently.I grew up around my grandfather who was a marine during the Korean war,i had a very good idea on discipline growing up.I teach and train boxers and mixed martial artist for a living discipline is one of the biggest factors in either sport.Someone who has no discipline before starting has no business ever being taught how to technically fight another person.

That said maybe we both can act like mature adults stop with the assumptions and name calling like we are in high school and continue the discussion.

[+Link of Hyrule]

It's not 50/50 PA. Mabey 85/15. Those in the 15 are only on the fence because in the very mild cases, we are talking about the margins. it is to difficult to tell to make any kind of scientific judgment. And the research shows that pain does indeed create an Imeadate response, so does a hot stove, but the overall effectiveness is ambiguouse. I'm guessing ( just a guess) that some of the 15 carry some of the biases that are seen here. Pick up any modern text book on children, early childhood education, child psychology, family life etc etc etc. ask any pediatrician.

Are you sure it's closer to 85/15? My brother is a psychologist. Not a child psychologist but a few years ago when the same question arose I emailed him and he showed me to the current consensus amongst child psychologists. Perhaps in the past three or four years the tide has turned massively in favour of one side. If that be the case, then so be it. I've emailed my brother once again to see if he can point me to the current research amongst child psychologists (I'm not asking him his own opinion, being that he's not a child psychologist). I'll let you know when he gets back to me (it's midnight here, so I shan't expect anything until tomorrow, at least). All I can say is the last I looked it up with the help of someone who studied psychology at university for six years and is now a psychology lecturer at our local university, the consensus was (as I said) virtually split down the middle. Has it changed now? I'll let you know soon

edit:

I have given solid examples of cultures that are highly disciplined yet do not use pain as a deterrent

Sorry, just to make one final point - whoever said anything about causing pain? Spankings aren't supposed to hurt. They may shock a little (like slapping a wrist away from a television cord, being the example given earlier), but they aren't like a slap in the face by an angry ex, who is intending to cause you blurred vision. I once observed one of my former flatmates spank their child for doing the wrong thing. The six/seven-year old kid had been naughty, then fronted the consequences. For the next fifteen minutes, the kid cried and screamed and wailed and promised to be good and said he'd do ANYTHING to avoid the spank. And all of this before his father had even touched him. When finally it came to the act, it was three tiny whacks, to which the kid didn't cry or cause an issue.

I am absolutely convinced with 100% conviction that the child was simply afraid of the possibility of consequence, afraid that he'd done the wrong thing and now he had to deal with the consequences of his actions (perhaps even the embarrassment of being over his dad's knee with his dad's friends listening on from the room next door, though more likely the punishment in his own head was worse than what was actually going to come). There was absolutely ZERO PAIN with the actual punishment. It was all psychological.

I would argue that if a person spanks a child, and the child cries because of the pain caused, then that is abuse. Most parents who spank their kids don't do it in order to cause them to cry, though, and I'd not hesitate to argue that the child psychologists who don't see a problem with spankings think along similar lines. Spankings are not supposed to be torture. At least, they never were with me when my dad did it to me.

Just a thought,

~ PA

Edited March 5, 2013 by Paranoid Android

[White Crane Feather]

You were the first one making assumptions not me.Your post show you are nothing but a know it all.Sorry but going to college does not make you an expert on every human alive there Einstein!Education got it,experience got,You maybe correct on age though as you seem to have been deluded for many years now.Well it is hillarious that you can read a grown mans attitude through a computer screen after only talking to them in 1 topic,your professor must be very proud.What is even funnier is it took you all day to come up with that response,you must be what some refer to as a educated idiot.

It has nothing to with college there kido.

[CrimsonKing]

Well then enlighten me.How does as i orginally said teaching one to stand up for and defend themselves breed the bully culture?How does saying that make me uneducated in your opinion?Even with your advanced age there are things i could probably teach you old man lol

[redhen]

It's funny all this talk of training good soldiers. Does anyone realize that the military does not practice corporal punishment?

That's not so. NCO's and officers are prohibited from striking soldiers, but there are many ways to , ahem, exhaust them physically and cause pain. Just ask any recruit.

[shadowhive]

Ahh, but they are quite similar. You see, you should not regulate ANYTHING simply because someone might not be responsible enough, because that is the same as punishing the innocent. You punish the criminals, not all of society.

No, they're not similar.

Anyone that drives a car does their best to avoid hurting people. Knives too aren't used primaily to hurt anyone, but for the cutting and preperation of food. In boh cases harming others is avoided.

Now corporal punishment? That's all about harming people to get results. So yes, since the intent is to harm it should, ney must, be regulated.

[redhen]

That said, I'm confused as to whether this thread was originally aimed at corporal punishment in the household with children, or whether it was referring to our Justice System/s (eg, ten lashes for break-and-enters - that's just a random example).

~ Regards, PA

It's both. Robert Heinlein claimed (at least in his novel) that withholding corporal punishment (which includes parental spanking) leads to more capital punishment. He cites Delaware as the last state to utilize this punishment. Flogging was used there up until 1952.

[shadowhive]

Please, explain to us, Sheri, how to reason with a toddler, that has no command of the English language, that what they are doing could kill or severely injure them.

I know I'm not her, but I figure I should say anyway.

That depends entirely on the situation and what they are actually doing. There's no catch all solution and there may be many alternatives to any situation which are just as effective.

[Frank Merton]

It is a difficult path. Excessive severity, even if it is not physical, results in stubbornness and hate and resentment (or in some kids insecurity and self-loathing). Insufficient severity results in rottenness and selfishness and childishness.

[White Crane Feather]

Are you sure it's closer to 85/15? My brother is a psychologist. Not a child psychologist but a few years ago when the same question arose I emailed him and he showed me to the current consensus amongst child psychologists. Perhaps in the past three or four years the tide has turned massively in favour of one side. If that be the case, then so be it. I've emailed my brother once again to see if he can point me to the current research amongst child psychologists (I'm not asking him his own opinion, being that he's not a child psychologist). I'll let you know when he gets back to me (it's midnight here, so I shan't expect anything until tomorrow, at least). All I can say is the last I looked it up with the help of someone who studied psychology at university for six years and is now a psychology lecturer at our local university, the consensus was (as I said) virtually split down the middle. Has it changed now? I'll let you know soon

edit:

Sorry, just to make one final point - whoever said anything about causing pain? Spankings aren't supposed to hurt. They may shock a little (like slapping a wrist away from a television cord, being the example given earlier), but they aren't like a slap in the face by an angry ex, who is intending to cause you blurred vision. I once observed one of my former flatmates spank their child for doing the wrong thing. The six/seven-year old kid had been naughty, then fronted the consequences. For the next fifteen minutes, the kid cried and screamed and wailed and promised to be good and said he'd do ANYTHING to avoid the spank. And all of this before his father had even touched him. When finally it came to the act, it was three tiny whacks, to which the kid didn't cry or cause an issue.

I am absolutely convinced with 100% conviction that the child was simply afraid of the possibility of consequence, afraid that he'd done the wrong thing and now he had to deal with the consequences of his actions (perhaps even the embarrassment of being over his dad's knee with his dad's friends listening on from the room next door, though more likely the punishment in his own head was worse than what was actually going to come). There was absolutely ZERO PAIN with the actual punishment. It was all psychological.

I would argue that if a person spanks a child, and the child cries because of the pain caused, then that is abuse. Most parents who spank their kids don't do it in order to cause them to cry, though, and I'd not hesitate to argue that the child psychologists who don't see a problem with spankings think along similar lines. Spankings are not supposed to be torture. At least, they never were with me when my dad did it to me.

Just a thought,

~ PA

Yes that would be interesting. But you understand one psychologist saying something doesn't hold much sway. You know that I work with children and own a martial arts school. I do pay attention and read. Virtually nothing advocates it. Thats not to say that it says anything against it, but not a shred of actual literature, that I have seen, actually condones it.

And we should be clear what corporeal punishment actually means.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment

Parents can be physically intimidating within limits without causing pain. I have grabbed my five your old by the shirt before to haul him upstairs. Stared at him from across the room and got up fast with a dads look on my face. Some parents may disagree with even that, and I would listen if they have data. But so far I thought we were talking about spankings and swats, not a little pat on the rear end to get their attention. Thats not corporeal punishment. This is what I was talking up with the people in those studies that are realy in the margins if even that of any kind of physical discepline. The bottom line, and I think you agree, is that the old belt on the rear end and a solid 1-4 wacks on a bare bottom or across the cheek is out. If it is causing a hystamine reaction you are only damaging your child. I think a love tap on the diper of an out of control three year old is probably not going to cause all that much damage, but look at some of the material I posted. It has been shown that people then start to escalate even from mild acts. Our good friends here might have the control not to, but you and I both know that self control will be in the minority. Real corporeal punishment is simply not an effective or moral teaching tool, nor is it necessary for a disciplined household. ask your brother about real spanking?

Edited March 5, 2013 by Seeker79

[Frank Merton]

No matter what the parent does, no matter how perfectly they raise them, a child can turn out bad. We are only a fraction nurturing. The child is what he or she is. Parents have a duty when their child is grown to be forgiving, over and over if necessary.

[White Crane Feather]

Of course it doesn't, because the recruits are old enough to understand spoken language. The comparison had to do with the fact that recruits are as ignorant of military life as babies are of life in general, and that the strictly regimented and painful training are absolutely necessary to insure the recruit will not harm himself or others as he is trained to become a soldier.

I'm not against difficult and discaplined strength building training for anyone. Not for just soldiers either. But we are talking about kids here. I posted a video showing very clearly that my toddler knows language and body language enough to understand just fine. no swatting needed. Definantly physical control might be in order. I think I mentioned that our pediatrician specifically warned us away from that kind of training. Do you think he was just pulling it out of his personal opinion butt? My medical group is one of the top in the country, he is an expert on developing and protecting the health of children.

[CrimsonKing]

No matter what the parent does, no matter how perfectly they raise them, a child can turn out bad. We are only a fraction nurturing. The child is what he or she is. Parents have a duty when their child is grown to be forgiving, over and over if necessary.

Agreed frank as i said a few post back some can come from a great upbringing and turn out horrible.Some can come from a horrible upbringing and turn out great.No matter how much we have learned about the human brain or human phychology we still cannot at any given moment tell what makes someone else tick.We can study a person and get a good general idea after enough interaction with them,but we still can only assume until we can actually read their thoughts.

[+Link of Hyrule]

Yes that would be interesting. But you understand one psychologist saying something doesn't hold much sway.

Indeed, especially since he's not a child psychologist. That's why I'm not asking him his opinion, but instead asking him if he can point me towards the current consensus. Last time I did, it seemed virtually 50/50.

You know that I work with children and own a martial arts school. I do pay attention and read. Virtually nothing advocates it. Thats not to say that it says anything against it, but not a shred of actual literature, that I have seen, actually condones it.

I recall you mentioning these things. You know I also work with children, right? Not young kids, but High School students. I've also had my share of observation (even though I have no kids of my own).

And we should be clear what corporeal punishment actually means.

http://en.m.wikipedi...oral_punishment

Parents can be physically intimidating within limits without causing pain. I have grabbed my five your old by the shirt before to haul him upstairs. Stared at him from across the room and got up fast with a dads look on my face. Some parents may disagree with even that, and I would listen if they have data. But so far I thought we were talking about spankings and swats, not a little pat on the rear end to get their attention. Thats not corporeal punishment. This is what I was talking up with the people in those studies that are realy in the margins if even that of any kind of physical discepline. The bottom line, and I think you agree, is that the old belt on the rear end and a solid 1-4 wacks on a bare bottom or across the cheek is out. If it is causing a hystamine reaction you are only damaging your child. I think a love tap on the diper of an out of control three year old is probably not going to cause all that much damage, but look at some of the material I posted. It has been shown that people then start to escalate even from mild acts. Our good friends here might have the control not to, but you and I both know that self control will be in the minority. Real corporeal punishment is simply not an effective or moral teaching tool, nor is it necessary for a disciplined household. ask your brother about real spanking?

Granted, I agree with you in part. That's why my first post questioned about corporal punishment in the house towards children vs corporal punishment in the Justice System. I don't agree that corporal punishment towards children (ie, intended to cause pain) is ever warranted. I could be wrong, but I daresay that most people advocating spanking children would agree that it isn't meant to cause pain. If that means our usage of the term "corporal punishment" is technically incorrect, then so be it.

But yes, I was talking of spankings and swats, but no, I wasn't ever intending them in terms of the child being physically hurt by them. Oh, as I said, they may get a shock by the action, but not pain, and certainly not lingering pain.

Your own examples explain it. My father never grabbed me by the shirt and physically pulled me somewhere. I'd find that highly intimidating if someone did it to me, especially as a child. But it would get the point across. Physical punishment can work. Not on its own, and certainly not in excess. Other ways to deal with problems are also valid -

One time I was out with a former girlfriend, her child was about to climb the outside of a playground fort in our local shopping centre (what you would call Malls, I suppose). There was a sign saying "do not climb on the outside of the play set", but as kids do, he ignored it. His mother yelled out "Don't climb up there, do you want a smack"? The kid ignored her. I left her for a moment, walked to the kid, calmly asked him to come down for a moment. I asked him to read the sign to me. He read it. I asked him if he understood why. He couldn't think of anything. I asked him to stamp his foot down on the ground. He did. I asked him how it felt. he said the ground was hard. I asked him if he felt like punching the ground with his fist, or headbutting it as hard as he could. He said "no, it would hurt". So I asked him how he thought it might feel if he accidentally fell from the top of the castle, compared to falling inside the castle, which had spongy ground, and how his mum might feel if she had to see him hurt or worse. He got the message. He not only stopped climbing on the outside of the castle, he started telling the other kids from other parents that what they were doing was bad, that their mum's would cry if they were hurt (sadly, about six kids were playing on the outside of the castle and their parents didn't seem to care - on the scale of child abuse, I'd say that would be worse than a parent who disciplines their child with a spanking, at least it shows they care). In this case, explaining the issue taught the child something and fixed it far easier than a "do you want a smack" threat could ever do.

But not all situations are like this. Sometimes smacks are the best way to deal with a situation. But as I said, no one is advocating physical smacks to the point that the child is physically crying from the pain, or still smarting from it after it has happened. A "love tap" on the rear isn't exactly what I'm referring to, since the child is being punished with a spanking, but it's not one that's going to leave welts and sores and worse lying behind.

Edited March 5, 2013 by Paranoid Android

[White Crane Feather]

No matter what the parent does, no matter how perfectly they raise them, a child can turn out bad. We are only a fraction nurturing. The child is what he or she is. Parents have a duty when their child is grown to be forgiving, over and over if necessary.

We also have the duty to make sure they have the tools to make good decisions. True they will choose their own path, but our words and actions continues to echo in their minds for their entire lives. Good parenting is very important, takeing the belt to them is not good parenting.

[CrimsonKing]

own a martial arts school.

So you own a martial arts studio?Does not any and all martial arts teach self defense and self discipline?Just asking because it was your reference to bullying attitude where we got off topic earlier about standing up for and defending oneself.

What kind of martial arts do you teach?

[White Crane Feather]

Well then enlighten me.How does as i orginally said teaching one to stand up for and defend themselves breed the bully culture?How does saying that make me uneducated in your opinion?Even with your advanced age there are things i could probably teach you old man lol

Possibly. I'm not that old

Look again. I agreed twice now with you about standing up for yourself. As I have mentioned its actually what I do for a living and just so happens what my expertise is in. Coporeal punishment helps breed the bully culture. When kids learn from their parents that they can make Somone compliant with pain, guess what? yup they mimic it. A lot of bullies are mistreated at home usually heavy handed or verbally abusive parents or siblings. Then we have kids that are forced to stick up for themselves ( not that they shouldn't) evenchually breeding fighting. Or you get two bullying factions opposed to each other ( micro gangs if you will).

Uneducated because the studies and data actually show all this. I'm not being condescending I'm trying to promt people to go out and read it for themselves and make educated decisions on the matter rather than emotional or traditional ones.

Edited March 5, 2013 by Seeker79

[White Crane Feather]

So you own a martial arts studio?Does not any and all martial arts teach self defense and self discipline?Just asking because it was your reference to bullying attitude where we got off topic earlier about standing up for and defending oneself.

What kind of martial arts do you teach?

A little bit of everything from Kenpo karate, white tiger kung fu, and jujitsu. I tend to follow the martial arts philosophy of bruce lee. I was a formal member of the united states sport jujitsu team. I have lived martial arts since I was 8.

Right!!!! That's what I was getting at earlyer. In many ways I teach discepline for a living. Non of it involves corporeal punishment. ( i would not have a business and probably be in jail) Even the old practices of knuckle ups for being late or laps for punishments is completely out of date. Teaching a child that working out is a punishment is plain silly. It's a good way to instill in them that it is something to be avoided. A good recepie for an obese adult. I teach my kids that working out is a wonderful pleasure and noble persuit in their free time. Not getting to work out is the pnishment.

Edited March 5, 2013 by Seeker79

[CrimsonKing]

While I'm not in total disagreement about sticking up for yourself, your attitude actually breeds the bully culture. People bullying their kids into compliance leads to those kids bullying others, which leads to the kid fighting back, which leads to that kid wanting revenge, back and forth. You are mistaken American politics, law, and government culture is built on bullying, throwing ones weight around, and dominance. It's one of the reasons we can't get anything done.

You can see here is why i took offense,the first line actually seems to mean my attitude about self defense is what breeds the bully culture.My bad misunderstanding.No i do not believe in bullying one into compliance,but lets change the wording from "corporal punishment" to "spanking" as a deterent i am not against.Others have stated some can take this to far and i am very much against that.The ones who take it to far should be put into a cage or a ring for a few rounds and see how they like it.I believe everyone here is in agreement on that.

[White Crane Feather]

You can see here is why i took offense,the first line actually seems to mean my attitude about self defense is what breeds the bully culture.My bad misunderstanding.No i do not believe in bullying one into compliance,but lets change the wording from "corporal punishment" to "spanking" as a deterent i am not against.Others have stated some can take this to far and i am very much against that.The ones who take it to far should be put into a cage or a ring for a few rounds and see how they like it.I believe everyone here is in agreement on that.

Yes non verbal communication has its benefits and draw backs, I find myself editing a lot to say what I mean and not look like I ment something else.

[CrimsonKing]

A little bit of everything from Kenpo karate, white tiger kung fu, and jujitsu. I tend to follow the martial arts philosophy of bruce lee. I was a formal member of the united states sport jujitsu team. I have lived martial arts since I was 8.

Right!!!! That's what I was getting at earlyer. In many ways I teach discepline for a living. Non of it involves corporeal punishment. Even the old practices of knuckle ups for being late or laps for punishments is completely out of date. Teaching a child that working out is a punishment is plain silly. It's a good way to instill in them that it is something to be avoided. A good recepie for an obese adult. I teach my kids that working out is a wonderful pleasure and noble persist in their free time. Not getting to work out is the pnishment.

Cool i have been boxing since i was 9 then jiu jitsu since 19.21 full on mixed martial arts.

[Frank Merton]

As I posted once before, all disciplining of a child is wrong because it harms the child. Therefore when a parent decides discipline is unavoidable, necessary, as it were, it must be done mindfully with the idea that they are doing something wrong. Mindfulness is critical. Emotional reactions to what the child does are bound to do more harm than good. The idea is to see to it that you do more good than the harm you cannot avoid doing.

Discipline does harm to the child many ways. Sometimes it generates resentment and hate, sometimes fear and timidity, sometimes self-hate and insecurity. The administration of discipline has to be carried out with these harms clearly in mind, to reduce them as much as possible.

[CrimsonKing]

Yes non verbal communication has its benefits and draw backs, I find myself editing a lot to say what I mean and not look like I ment something else.

This is one thing i do often on the net aswell,i offend some not meaning to at all lol.As you said non verbal has its pros and cons

[White Crane Feather]

Cool i have been boxing since i was 9 then jiu jitsu since 19.21 full on mixed martial arts.

Awesome, I have attended training camps alongside randy, Uria, quinten, trig and some others. Got pictures with them and everything. Uria and Randy are awesom guys. I have a wherehouse gym next to a large lake complete with running trails, levys, and hills. Best life ever!!!!