Secret Caves under the Pyramids

[cladking]

We must wait until technology gives us ways to investigate without damaging the Pyramids, there may be riddles left to find but not yet!

I can't walk and need a walking stick so find the Riddle of the Sphinx very funny:-

http://www.jimloy.com/puzz/sphinx0.htm

I believe all the technology needed has existed for decades but is not being utilized. They just

quit doing the basic science long ago. They are quicker to board up and padlock what they don't

know than to experiment and investigate. This is why progress is not being made in understanding

even the most basic aspects of the ancients.

I would guess that once all the pieces fall into place we won't need to dynamite and drill holes to

get more information. If something destructive is needed than we'll know in advance the least de-

structive way to get what we need. We won't be drilling holes just to see what's behind doors. We

won't be going up blind alleys.

There are a huge number of clues and extensive evidence and no one has been able to put it

all together yet. This can only come with more data, perhaps.

[kmt_sesh]

I want to say something..we must find hidden messages left by the builders,for us to know the real truth,how they were build.I do believe, and i am sure that builders had to leave behind their secret knowledge..think about it...why there is a subterranean chamber under the pyramid...why there is a tunnel that goes under the great sphinx..and also one on top,why there is a secret notch in great pyramid.... why all of these? answer is simple..to find good place and store their secret knowledge. We will eventaully find out where this secret knowledge is,,but only when we humans are ready for this. Take a look at this notch again.. the upper part of the pyramid is practically unknown. maybe there is some secret room,is there an entrance thru this notch? who knows..

*Image Snip*

If the Egyptians maintained stores of secret knowledge, it would have little to nothing to do with construction techniques. "Secret knowledge" would've been more on the order of ritual and religious protocols for ceremonies and cultic activities. A lot of this is actually observable on temple walls in spaces where ordinary people were never permitted to go, but it's impossible to assess the full extent of what might be lost on perishable materials like papyrus.

The place where the most important ritual texts were kept was in the part of each large state temple called the pr-anx ("House of Life"). This was a sort of library maintained by the staffs of the largest temples. It's also where scribes were trained who would serve the temples. If you wanted (and could afford) a Book of the Dead, for example, individual sections of spells on sheets of papyrus were stored, pre-written, in the House of Life. In fact, while so much must be lost on perishable materials, it is arguably the Book of the Dead, of which over a thousand examples are extant, which preserves the largest extent of ritual writing originating from temples.

It depends on how one defines "secret," also. Popular with fringe writers is the whole mystery-school thing. This simply was not part of the Egyptian tradition. The closest one would come is the training for priests so that they could perform their duties correctly. Mystery cults were popular among the Greeks and Romans, but they weren't quite so "mysterious" as modern people tend to think—considering many of the ceremonies and rituals performed by these "schools" were staged in public venues and attended by all manner of people who wanted to watch.

As for the cavities and chambers you mentioned in your post, people have scaled every inch of the Great Pyramid for two centuries. The notch you mentioned is not secret. Some years back Archaeology magazine ran an article with numerous photos of Bob Brier exploring it. The notch comprises a tiny, enclosed chamber. The most interesting thing about the photos is how it shows the jumbled, hodge-podge nature of the masonry deeper inside the pyramid. There is no passageway or chamber on top of the Sphinx, aside from the large divot Vyse introduced there with his dynamite in the 1830s. The largest void inside the Sphinx is the narrow tunnel which opens near the monument's rear end—and all it does is dead-end after a short journey.

One thing we don't want to see is a return to the 1830's when Richard Vyse blew chunks out of the pyramid with explosives in an effort to find secret passages, it makes me go cold thinking about it!...

I couldn't agree more. Nevertheless, you will see posters right here at UM who, if left to themselves, would tear apart Egypt left and right and dig willy-nilly just to satisfy their misplaced notions. Thank goodness that attitude is ignored by the scientific-minded folks of today. And thank goodness it is the scientific-minded folks who control excavations and research.

Vyse is only one example of sloppy explorers of past days. Sir Wallis Budge was quite the hack in his own right. He stole from Egypt one of the largest and finest Books of the Dead ever to survive from ancient Egypt, and successfully returned it to the British Museum—where he chopped it into sections to study it more easily. Early Egyptology is not the only field to have suffered these indignities. While we owe to Heinrich Schliemann the "discovery" of the Bronze Age society of Mycenaean Greece, he will always probably be more remembered as the hack who manically chopped the tell of Hissarlik to pieces in his zeal to find Troy.

[+DieChecker]

It requires actual scientific sampling to have any meaning at all.

So I can feel free to Dismiss your ideas because they don't have any scientific sampling done either?

Ramps would be as big a project as the pyramid. The word "ramp" would be littered throughout the cemeteries. There would be gods of ramps and stone draggers. There would be sled builders and repairers.

Opinon....

There were no ramps. Ramps are a silly way to lift stones 481'. They might be impossible for lifting stones 481' but the evidence says it doesn't matter.

Not my evidence.

[+DieChecker]

Why would evidence for ramps be on the inside unless they used unevidenced internal ramps?

I thought that was pretty clear. The ramp RESTED on the steps. And they placed blocks onto the steps as they went down... aligning the sides of the pyramid and cladding the sides. At least that is an idea I had, based on a step pyramid design.

They obviously would not have been able to clear 100% of the ramp debris from the work area, and so there would be ramp material in the voids and mixed with the mortor where those Steps would have been. It could be that much of the ramp was simply paved over as they moved down filling in the steps.

If they were on the inside then why don't they show up on the scan? Why are you married to ramps?

The ramp remains would be what produced the weird density changes in the density scan.

I like ramps because I know they had that technology. Evidence ramps exists in various forms in many places in Egypt. What I don't like is leaping to wild conclusions with no evidence.

There are horizontal and vertical lines on the pyramids and no diagonal lines. You still can't clad a pyramid with spiral ramps. You can't build a pyramid under a massive pile. You can't build a pyramid the hard way when there is an easy way. You can't build a pyramid with ramps and leave only evidence for other means.

This is going off your OWN step pyramid idea Clad. You said they would fill in the stones on the sides and clad the sides as they finished the steps... top down. They would have to build under a pile. Top down. They would not have to have evidence such as lines on the outside. Since all the finish work would be done on the way down.

Just looking at the 2nd pyramid, you can see that the cladding is still on the top after thousands of years. How hard would it be to fill in the cladding on the way down for a couple weeks at a time? Not very...

[+DieChecker]

Let me point out two things that affect your contention here. First is that the scan is looking into the p[yramid only three meters at the top and ten meters at the bottom.

Interesting. I'd not read that before.

Also, if the steps were merely to hold ramps then logically the steps should decrease in height as you go higher because the ramps would need to keep the same angle.

That is a good point. The ramp would not have the same amount of length in which to rise to the next step... hummm.....

[+DieChecker]

I want to say something..we must find hidden messages left by the builders,for us to know the real truth,how they were build.I do believe, and i am sure that builders had to leave behind their secret knowledge..think about it...why there is a subterranean chamber under the pyramid...why there is a tunnel that goes under the great sphinx..and also one on top,why there is a secret notch in great pyramid.... why all of these? answer is simple..to find good place and store their secret knowledge. We will eventaully find out where this secret knowledge is,,but only when we humans are ready for this. Take a look at this notch again.. the upper part of the pyramid is practically unknown. maybe there is some secret room,is there an entrance thru this notch? who knows..

The notch is certainly an interesting point for discussion. But, it does not go anywhere. It is just a small room.

I've never heard of a recognized tunnel heading under the Sphinx.

[SHaYap]

There is no 'one ramp' all the way to the top.

Think 'staggered' Think 'stages' Think 'schedule'

They're not only to get the stones up the levels, the stones needs to be fitted and pared to needs, every stone is individually unique don't forget. Means every single stone needs to be customized to its located fit. There would be multiple crews with multi tasks on every stone at it's final station. Less space also means less stones being fitted concurrently.

[samspade]

Take a look at this notch again.. the upper part of the pyramid is practically unknown. maybe there is some secret room,is there an entrance thru this notch?

Jean Pierre Houdin talks about that notch and its part of his internal ramp theory.

He believes theres a long internal ramp that goes around and up the great pyramid, i believe at a 7 degree angle,

Houdin got Bob Brier to go up inside the notch, and at the notch there was a hole and Bob mentions it was like a ancient room.

here is link to national geographic video called "Unlocking the Great Pyramid"

http://channel.natio...-great-pyramid/

its a long video, because it talks about the internal ramp, but around the 36 minute mark he talks about the notch for few minutes.

Anyhow Houdin believes within that notch and so called ancient room there a stone block , which houdin believes is blocking a point where ther can get into the so called internal ramp.

houdin based that belief based on the pictures inside the notch and a 3d analysis of the great pyramid, he wants to get permission to run a test.

in another video jean pierre mentions he believes there are 2 more hidden chambers inside the great pyramid.

Edited March 6, 2013 by samspade

[SHaYap]

if houdin is right it means close to 40% of the internal mass of the pyramid is passageways and the ramp

that also means the pyramid is 'almost half empty/hollow'

would've crashed in on itself long time ago...

~edit : dyslexia attack

Edited March 6, 2013 by third_eye

[samspade]

if houdin is right it means close to 40% of the internal mass of the pyramid is passageways and the ramp

that also means the pyramid is 'almost half empty/hollow'

would've crashed in on itself long time ago...

houdin theory was very popluar and he is a artitect and bob brier the egyptologist like it,

i saw in a video they ran of stress tests about cracks in granite .

its quite possible he just didnt mention how it was supported in that video.,

i didnt rewatch the whole video, i just knew the notch was in there.

im sure houdin could provide information on that if you wish to contact him.

houdin theory mentions also they also had a external ramp as well internal ramp,

he claims that the external ramp was used for most of the monument mass which was the bottom third of the pyramid. then they later in building they used the blocks of the external ramp.

Edited March 6, 2013 by samspade

[monk 56]

Hi Kmt_sesh,

As you mentioned me on your post of previous page, thread section #852, i would like to respond in a friendly way, anything Egyptian, you are "Top-Notch", and i agree that the philosophy and religion was open, secret societies follow a melting pot of different philosophies only loosely based on Egypt, obviously they did have a very strong religion, even romans started getting mummified when they invaded!

The largest influence of secret societies post Egypt has been Hermes Trismegistus who i doubt ever existed, but philosophy of religion isn't logical ha ha!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes_Trismegistus

When you mentioned Wallis Budge, you took me back some years to when i was a boy and on vacation/holiday, visiting Lyme Regis, well known for its fossils, i was fascinated, i also visited a musky smelling second hand book shop there, where i bought my first book on Egypt, it was a second edition Budge, Book of the Dead, i still have it.

I have often wondered how religion developed, and don't want to offend religious readers, but perhaps there is some truth in link below:-

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10cl.htm

Obviously unproven, but my interests are in philosophy and archaeoastronomy as you know, and i give mountains of my own research on that subject, so no problem with thesis!

[+DieChecker]

would've crashed in on itself long time ago...

Yeah. I think in going on 5000 years some of these internal ramp tunnels would have collapsed and reveiled themselves by now. Not to mention that robbers would have opened them up looking for loot.

[samspade]

Yeah. I think in going on 5000 years some of these internal ramp tunnels would have collapsed and reveiled themselves by now. Not to mention that robbers would have opened them up looking for loot.

well houdin could easily say they supported it in some fashion, or perhaps even fill some in,

well im open to the idea of a internal ramp but i wait for real proof of it.

houdin even suggests that tomb robbers that broke into the great pyramid

didnt get to those 2 hidden rooms he claims to be there because

they did not find the correct entrance to the passageway.

Houdin spend years on his work.

clearly with time we will find out if his right or wrong.

i be open minded untill real evidence proves it one way or another.

heres a video where houdin talks about the tomb robbers its near the end at the 54minute mark

in that video to they show the internal ramp with it having design almost a corbel style, which is a stronger design but like we know its a theory

Edited March 6, 2013 by samspade

[dreamland]

Edward Leedskalini who build coral castle knew the secrets of the pyramid,,,as i mention this many times in my posts. He left some clues,including the book about magnetic current,BUT he never told anyone how he did it. This means that secret knowledge must be important,and this is the same thing with pyramids in giza. I believe that information is there,waiting to be discovered. Why i think there is a secret knowledge left by the builders: Well..answer this : why we had to use our technology in form of robot that went inside the shaft and drill a hole inside that door to see mysterious markings behind? why we had to use advanced technology to see it? Dont you think we should use more advanced technology now and locate a chamber or room in which is a secret knowledge? Chamber under the pyramid..a notch...unfinished tunnel under the sphinx..these are all clues and perhaps a possible location of secret knowledge. Up to this point we just guess.. maybe aliens,maybe ramps,maybe orion connection... but there is not a single solid proof ! one side says this,and another that... who is right then? I really love talking about pyramids,share my own idea,watch videos...but i also would like to know the real truth about pyramids,....how they were really build, and for what purpose.

Edited March 6, 2013 by dreamland

[+DieChecker]

well houdin could easily say they supported it in some fashion, or perhaps even fill some in,

well im open to the idea of a internal ramp i wait for real proof of it.

houdin even suggests that those tomb robbers didnt get to those 2 hidden rooms he claims to be there because they did find the correct entrance to the passsway.

its his theory, and man he spend years on his work.

clearly with time we will find out if his right or wrong.

i be open minded till real evidence proves it one way or another.

Filled them in is a good idea.

I'd agree with supporting the internal ramp architecturally, but even supurb limestone architecture tends to start collapsing in places after only 1000 years, much less 5000.

I'm still going to keep an open mind. It could be true, but in my own opinion I think there is no internal ramp. (Other then the Grand Gallery)

[SHaYap]

I think I just finished going through Houdin's site about May last year, there is a lot of things to go through, lots of great references on his site.

I like some of his ideas, but I'm not convinced of his claims.

Another thing about internal ramps is that it minimizes the traffic path making moving things much more difficult, limiting accessibility to too many areas, you can't readjust an internal ramp without moving a lot of the existing structure.

The AEs had no problems 'lifting' the stones high up with the resources they have. Their only problem faced is not having them fall back down.

You people has been looking at the 'mystery' from the wrong end.

[TheSearcher]

I would assume they used a mix of both internal and external ramps, because one theory on it's own presents flaws. Whereas the two combined work out perfectly.

[lakeview rud]

While the chamber beneath the pyramid is certainly not a secret cave I would think that it bears more investigation. Let's get to the bottom of this. Can we start by agreeing that the pyramid was built from the center out and from the bottom up(arguments about the casing stones not withstanding)? If you look at the GP in cross section you will see that the descending passage at 26 degrees matches the ascending passage at 26 degrees and their intersection appears to start at 'ground level' in the hill the GP was built on. Both passages are identical in cross section with the upper one appears to have once had wooden structures in it based on the holes or notches in the walls. Theres a block up top of the ascending passage that showed evidence of being worn by something (rope?) but this has since been cosmetically "restored" by modern Egyptians. I'm going to propose that the very large blocks got up the GP this way. If you could arrange some sort of counterweight system in the lower passage it would be relatively easy to use laborers to pulll blocks up since the 26 degree matching inclines would allow you to balance the weights except for the friction of what the block was riding on. This same system could then be used to lift sets of the smaller blocks up the side. Don't get me wrong, I think the AE's used whatever process worked best depending on the level they were at so ramps, Wally Wallington-like devices etc all could have been used. If you just replace Cladking's geysers with plain water carried by those same laborers there's plenty of counterweight material available. The GP had plenty of planning...note that the final angle of the GP is darn close to twice the 26 degree angle (so the ascending passage was centered) and the location of the underground chamber is very close to the center of the pramid. Still lots of unanswered questions but I'd love to see a computer simulation beginning from the center at ground level and going out and up.

[cladking]

While the chamber beneath the pyramid is certainly not a secret cave I would think that it bears more investigation. Let's get to the bottom of this. Can we start by agreeing that the pyramid was built from the center out and from the bottom up(arguments about the casing stones not withstanding)? If you look at the GP in cross section you will see that the descending passage at 26 degrees matches the ascending passage at 26 degrees and their intersection appears to start at 'ground level' in the hill the GP was built on. Both passages are identical in cross section with the upper one appears to have once had wooden structures in it based on the holes or notches in the walls. Theres a block up top of the ascending passage that showed evidence of being worn by something (rope?) but this has since been cosmetically "restored" by modern Egyptians. I'm going to propose that the very large blocks got up the GP this way. If you could arrange some sort of counterweight system in the lower passage it would be relatively easy to use laborers to pulll blocks up since the 26 degree matching inclines would allow you to balance the weights except for the friction of what the block was riding on. This same system could then be used to lift sets of the smaller blocks up the side. Don't get me wrong, I think the AE's used whatever process worked best depending on the level they were at so ramps, Wally Wallington-like devices etc all could have been used. If you just replace Cladking's geysers with plain water carried by those same laborers there's plenty of counterweight material available. The GP had plenty of planning...note that the final angle of the GP is darn close to twice the 26 degree angle (so the ascending passage was centered) and the location of the underground chamber is very close to the center of the pramid. Still lots of unanswered questions but I'd love to see a computer simulation beginning from the center at ground level and going out and up.

There are caves under the pyramid and there are caves in the Osiris Shaft and the Tomb

of the Birds. There are likely many more not being investigated and I don't know to which

specific chamber you refer to whjen saying it's not a cave but you are probably correct. As

a rule chambers on the plateau are not also caves even though they might have begun as

caves.

I can not agree they would have built from the "inside out". In almost all probability they began

on the side(s) opposite where the stones arrived on the pyramid top and worked toward where

they came up. This would be necessary so that the built masonry didn't get in there way. Some

deviation from this might be expected but as a rule they would have started on the edges un-

less stones came up all four edges and then it would be the corners and they'd work toward the

center.

It's not very likely they would use water as ballast unless they had a source at hand. Of course

it's possible but who'd have ever thought to haul water up from the Nile to build pyramids. There's

another problem with hauling water up and that is between all the leakage in the "winding water-

course", evaporation, and other such losses there would be huge amounts of effort just to keep

the entire sysyem flooded. The evidence says they did use water though so I believe the question

really boils down to what is the source of that water.

Of course they could have used other means in keeping with the actual evidence. They could have

used sand for ballast or they could have just used muscle power by pulling the stones up one step

at a time. I've never claimed this is a done deal merely that the evidence suggests ramps were not

used and stones were lifted in "stages". The height of these stages could be caused by myriad and

simple things. Perhaps they simply couldn't lift stones higher than their longest ropes. This would be

almost exactly in concordance with the evidence. There's no proof of anything but digging for debunked

ramps has failed.

When I put stepped pyramids and water together I get a natural water source at 81' 3". Your results

may vary.

[cladking]

I thought that was pretty clear. The ramp RESTED on the steps. And they placed blocks onto the steps as they went down... aligning the sides of the pyramid and cladding the sides. At least that is an idea I had, based on a step pyramid design.

You're on the right track but not taking it far enough. Sure, they might have used switchback

ramps that took up exactly the width of the top step and this would be a neat match for the evidence.

If so it's a shame some don't show up near the top but these could have been dismantled in fin-

ishing operations. But there are a few flies in the ointment here besides just the lack of other

evidence and the improbability of any sort of ramp. Why would all the pyramids be five steps?

To make the number of switchbacks come out even some should be six steps. Then you still have

the mother of all flies; how did they fillin these steps. Sure they could have used some variation of

my method of pulling them up the side or from a remote location but once they learned this tech-

nique that was so much easier then why would they keep making ramps? Indeed, pulling them up

the side starts getting almost difficult toward the end so switchback ramps would have them using

the most difficult method of lifting the bulk of the pyramid before switching to something that might

actually be a little harder for the last 10% of the work.

[SHaYap]

While the chamber beneath the pyramid is certainly not a secret cave I would think that it bears more investigation. Let's get to the bottom of this. Can we start by agreeing that the pyramid was built from the center out and from the bottom up(arguments about the casing stones not withstanding)? If you look at the GP in cross section you will see that the descending passage at 26 degrees matches the ascending passage at 26 degrees and their intersection appears to start at 'ground level' in the hill the GP was built on. Both passages are identical in cross section with the upper one appears to have once had wooden structures in it based on the holes or notches in the walls. Theres a block up top of the ascending passage that showed evidence of being worn by something (rope?) but this has since been cosmetically "restored" by modern Egyptians. I'm going to propose that the very large blocks got up the GP this way. If you could arrange some sort of counterweight system in the lower passage it would be relatively easy to use laborers to pulll blocks up since the 26 degree matching inclines would allow you to balance the weights except for the friction of what the block was riding on. This same system could then be used to lift sets of the smaller blocks up the side. Don't get me wrong, I think the AE's used whatever process worked best depending on the level they were at so ramps, Wally Wallington-like devices etc all could have been used. If you just replace Cladking's geysers with plain water carried by those same laborers there's plenty of counterweight material available. The GP had plenty of planning...note that the final angle of the GP is darn close to twice the 26 degree angle (so the ascending passage was centered) and the location of the underground chamber is very close to the center of the pramid. Still lots of unanswered questions but I'd love to see a computer simulation beginning from the center at ground level and going out and up.

Giza 3D - Dassault Systèmes

enjoy ...

"3D Life Player Installation Required" just click on 'install'

Edited March 6, 2013 by third_eye

[cladking]

Giza 3D - Dassault Systèmes

enjoy ...

"3D Life Player Installation Required" just click on 'install'

If it's a five step pyramid then it's impossible to have been built with internal ramps.

[cladking]

Just looking at the 2nd pyramid, you can see that the cladding is still on the top after thousands of years. How hard would it be to fill in the cladding on the way down for a couple weeks at a time? Not very...

This is one of the problems with all the ramp theories except for internal ramps; It would be

impossible to clad it from the top down. If it were it were cladded as they went up then there's

nothing for ramps to adhere to.

Rampss are debunked and it no longer matters how much the proposals twist and turn to make

ecsher-like impossibilities because they are completely debunked and now we know "they mustta

pulled stones up one step at a time". The exact means can be determined very quickly if they ever

do the science.

[dreamland]

Giza 3D - Dassault Systèmes

enjoy ...

"3D Life Player Installation Required" just click on 'install'

i know better website : http://www.airpano.com/360Degree-VirtualTour.php?3D=Egypt-Cairo-Pyramids

[lakeview rud]

Thanks, Third Eye, but I couldn't get it to go the first time; will try again shortly.