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Ancient sites in South America


poppet

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Hello Poppet I find this topic fascinating.

Thanks for clear close up pics and ideas as to the human element in the carving and construction techniques employed by the ancient masons.

The drill hole and wheel are interesting too, maybe they worked as a pulley system to raise and or lower larger stones. Just guessing.

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Jan 1, 2010

1600×1200 pixels – 191KB

Filename: peru 088.jpg

Camera: FUJIFILM

Model: FinePix F30

ISO: 1600

Exposure: 1/110 sec

Aperture: 2.8

Focal Length: 8mm

Flash Used: No

from above link

that's a very good shot with a 8mm at 2.8 and no flash .... 1/110 sec needs a great pair of steady hands ... Abe needs practice :lol:

the thing don't look anything like a skull to me though ...

~edit : slippery grammar curve

Edited by third_eye
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Those are awesome pictures Poppet! Thanks for sharing!! I could look at those and more for hours in amazement lol

As for the Ica stones, I'm sure they're fakes... There's plenty of stories around the net, but the fact that you can see with your own eyes that people can reproduce them exactly, holds some merit for disproving the others as "ancient" IMO

As for the unbelievable stone walls and masonary... WOW! Again, awesome pics!!!

BUUUTTT... some people have all the answers and the only mystery left is that they, who know all, don't seem to want to share exactly how these were built(extracted, cut, moved, positioned)

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=224162&hl=%20sacsayhuaman&st=0

Swede had some good insight on how the "modern"(for lack of a better term) peoples cut the rock in the region, and when you consider the amount of work to hammer out a rock of say, 100lbs, we still don't have the answers on how the bigger ones were done, moved etc...Thanks for that Swede... A year later haha!

Those links were a long read, but an enjoyable one.

There IS soneone who has the answers apparently, but I suppose he's still marvelling about how they invented a bow and arrow and thus is far too distracted to share the secrets of the stones lol

BTW, that's kinda why I haven't bothered posting here in a year Swede... That Aquatus dude was a Mod at the time and that's how I got greeted?... with things like "Because YOU think" and such... quite rediculous lol

I actually was just curious if there was an explanaiton(some uhem... "rock" solid proof) for these "mysteries"... the walls really... and the true answer is we don't know how they did it. Got my answer and didn't feel like bantering back and forth on the ingenuity of ancient people. But again, thanks for those links. Some good stuff in there. I do keep up on reading this forum though... regularly. This thread and those pictures made me dig out my login etc lol

Maybe I'll post more often lol

I certainly don't believe UFO's came down lol

I DO believe some ancient "peoples" built everything mysterious in S. America, but how and.. when... and in some cases, why, they built it... well, I don't buy the conventional history books, and personally, I think the Mayan's etc, found these sites and took them over for themselves... and fixed up broken portions with the much smaller stones that still stand upon the older larger ones in certain areas. Anyways, that's my opinion on things... until further finds can answer more.

Love Tiahunaco too.

On a different note in S. America, what's with those mountain tops with flattened summits, and some with what looks like long carved "runways"???(I hate to use that term BTW as I don't honestly believe they were actually runways)... but 2 things interest me about them...

1- Are they actually carved/cut mountain tops?

2- Where is the material that used to be the summits??? There's nothing laying in the valleys between.

Well 3 things interest me... the third being... WHAT THE HELL?? lol

Here's one:

bahn.jpg

Did you get any pictures of these Poppet? I think they're near the Nazca lines... though I may be mistaken.

Anyways, cheers! and keep those pics coming! :)

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from above link

that's a very good shot with a 8mm at 2.8 and no flash .... 1/110 sec needs a great pair of steady hands ... Abe needs practice :lol:

the thing don't look anything like a skull to me though ...

~edit : slippery grammar curve

The thing doesn't look anywhere near to what I saw 19 years before that photo was taken

And my camera was a very cheap and non-digital one.

***

EDIT:

To give you an idea how the showcases in the museum looked like back then, here a photo of a showcase with animal skulls from the Peruvian jungle, a showcase just before the one with the skull of the primitive human (and not the one Everdred posted):

Arequipa_Recoleta_1991_zpsfe323ed5.jpg

Another one from the same museum:

Arequipa_Recoleta_1991_2_zpsd0f8be17.jpg

And this is a photo I took of El Misti, the volcano near Arequipa (when on my way back to the hotel after I left the museum):

Arequipa_Recoleta_1991_3_zpsb7b80348.jpg

Edited by Abramelin
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Hi Poppet,

I am really glad you post all these excellent photos !! :tu:

I have some 500 of Peru/Bolivia myself, but most are of a lousy quality because I assumed it would be a good idea to take a cheap camera along (in case of theft)....and I still regret it after 21 years.

that sure is annoying ,i did the same when me and the misses back packed around Egypt ,and we were quite economical with the photo taking and that is always something i regret , nowadays with a digital camera you can just snap away to your hearts content and i did in South America i must have nearly 4000 images (don't worry mods i wont post them all lol.

before i progress to the other sites i will retread my steps and post a few more from Nazca/stone museum and Cusco .

thanks everyone for your interest.

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The thing doesn't look anywhere near to what I saw 19 years before that photo was taken

And my camera was a very cheap and non-digital one.

***

~snip

Don't get grouchy, I was just jibing ya, y'know like 'pokey pokey' ?

Great pics BTW

Mr Photo Grapher :)

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On a different note in S. America, what's with those mountain tops with flattened summits, and some with what looks like long carved "runways"???(I hate to use that term BTW as I don't honestly believe they were actually runways)... but 2 things interest me about them...

1- Are they actually carved/cut mountain tops?

2- Where is the material that used to be the summits??? There's nothing laying in the valleys between.

Well 3 things interest me... the third being... WHAT THE HELL?? lol

Here's one:

bahn.jpg

Short answer, no, they're not carved. Not that way anyway. Their innies, not outies. The flat parts are the original surface. Everything else was eroded down into them. When you look at a satellite view, it becomes readily apparent that the "mountains" are actually the sides of a system of drainage channels cutting the edges of the plateau.

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Thanks for your photos. I'll be leaving for Peru May 1 so I am particularly interested. Although I've seen photos of these sites, it's always good to get someone else's take on the subject.

As for Brien Foerster and the AA crew, I have always believed that the value of their presentations lay not in the validity of their theories (to which I do not subscibe) but in bringing these sites to a mainstream audience. And if a little theatre is added....

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Thanks for your photos. I'll be leaving for Peru May 1 so I am particularly interested. Although I've seen photos of these sites, it's always good to get someone else's take on the subject.

As for Brien Foerster and the AA crew, I have always believed that the value of their presentations lay not in the validity of their theories (to which I do not subscibe) but in bringing these sites to a mainstream audience. And if a little theatre is added....

more the fun the merrier for us :tu:

safe trip ... more pics :yes:

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Short answer, no, they're not carved. Not that way anyway. Their innies, not outies. The flat parts are the original surface. Everything else was eroded down into them. When you look at a satellite view, it becomes readily apparent that the "mountains" are actually the sides of a system of drainage channels cutting the edges of the plateau.

Short answer, no, they're not carved. Not that way anyway. Their innies, not outies. The flat parts are the original surface. Everything else was eroded down into them. When you look at a satellite view, it becomes readily apparent that the "mountains" are actually the sides of a system of drainage channels cutting the edges of the plateau.

Thanks for that :tu: ... I looked it up and found this guy's response to the question:

"fissures deep within the crust rise up to form, underlining ranges. these ranges usually are very sensitive so in that general area the soil is made of mica garnet or very fragile rock structures, which if exposed to the layering atmospheres present in that region of south america, can easily carck, thus making an equally spreadout plain.....im a geologist,"

That, when I think about it, sounds like a good theory. As does yours too btw.

But when I look at that picture, I still have a hard time with it lol... I'm not advocating that it's man-made either... but it sure does look like it was cut off.

I'd love to be able to just fly there in my own plane and land on that plateau and check things out for myself.

Then I could say something with authority, like "Been there, done that" lol

Anyways, sorry for sidetracking this thread, Poppet's pics are awesome! and inspires one to want to go and visit these sites for themselves!

Cheers!

Edit: Don`t know why that double quoted...

weird

weird

Double edit: I should mention that, that guy`s explanation I quoted was about flat-topped mountains in general, not that specific site in the picture.

Edited by Lemieux
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nazca

Thanks for your photos. I'll be leaving for Peru May 1 so I am particularly interested. Although I've seen photos of these sites, it's always good to get someone else's take on the subject.

As for Brien Foerster and the AA crew, I have always believed that the value of their presentations lay not in the validity of their theories (to which I do not subscibe) but in bringing these sites to a mainstream audience. And if a little theatre is added....

i couldn't agree more , very well said.

more pics from nazca.

NAZCALINESPERU19_zpsc2d51995.jpg

ELASTRONAUTO_zps8b8ae997.jpg

NAZCALINES12_zps59410413.jpg

NAZCALINES13_zps23dc40a5.jpg

NAZCALINES14_zps256f01ad.jpg

NAZCALINES11_zps1f0633ca.jpg

P1000091.jpg

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more pics from the stone museum in ica ,the museum is usually closed and you have to phone the owner and pay him 30 sols.

P1000180-1.jpg

P1000181_zps7eb5d39f.jpg

P1000188.jpg

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As you can see the museum is in chaos .

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heres the outside of the koricancha with the Spanish church built over the top.

Coricancha_Complex_Cuzco11-13-20125-19-44AM_zps1b37be82.jpg

6l0lO0uF7MQsLg0Wd_g2H5QJbTVhpi3Xt8D.jpg

here is the inside of the outside wall.

xUWU5wQox39f2lylnSfSg2dULABZ9FCSxth.jpg

this is the top of the same wall.

zBDHLdz8OMGfGDeitQ6164LiAWbsskjnTSu.jpg

the attention to detail from these craftsmen and that is what they are is second to none.

DHhCqqhumtjpd6dnP-8Jrl7javpNEntQq9l.jpg

X3a3_PUjZtByxLAvsq4GWoXpE24ms2dra4D.jpg

Coricancha_Complex_Cuzco11-13-20125-06-10AM_zps6b392569.jpg

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Sachsayhuaman was supposedly completed around 1508 , that’s what all the guidebooks tell us, but The chronicler Garcilaso de la Vega who was Inca on his mother’s side and Spanish on his fathers and was born in Cusco 1536 ,had no idea who or how they were built.

This is his account;

"....this fortress surpasses the constructions known as the Seven Wonders of the World. For in the case of a long broad wall like that of Babylon, or the colossus of Rhodes, or the pyramids of Egypt, or the other monuments, one can see clearly how they were executed...how, by summoning an immense body of workers and accumulating more and more material day by day and year by year, they overcame all difficulties by employing human effort over a long period. But it is indeed beyond the power of imagination to understand now these Indians, unacquainted with devices, engines, and implements, could have cut, dressed, raised, and lowered great rocks, more like lumps of hills than building stones, and set them so exactly in their places. For this reason, and because the Indians were so familiar with demons, the work is attributed to enchantment."

You would have thought there would still have been some builders left in Cusco to tell him exactly how and when they were built, as it was only 30 years after the alleged construction.

Next I turned to the book, THE Seventeen Years TRAVELS of PETER de CIEZA, Through the Mighty Kingdom of PERU, which is one of the first recorded writings of Peru and it states throughout his entire book, that when they came to these various monuments they were all in a state of ruin.

So that’s the two earliest accounts that are available, now we move on to the present time and the latest news is that the Killke culture may have been the builders of Sachsayhuaman.

Killke culture

The Killke occupied the region from 900 to 1200, prior to the arrival of the Incas in the 13th century. Carbon-14 dating of Sachsayhuaman, the walled complex outside Cusco, has demonstrated that the Killke culture constructed the fortress about 1100. The Inca later expanded and occupied the complex in the 13th century and after. On 13 March 2008, archaeologists discovered the ruins of an ancient temple, roadway and aqueduct system at Sachsayhuaman. This find plus the results of excavations in 2007, when another temple was found at the edge of the fortress, indicates religious as well as military use of the facility.

http://www.cusco.eu/...e-of-cusco.html

And the lead archaeologist Oscar Rodriguez had this to say.

http://www.msnbc.msn...l/#.UMoDV3eQT0Q

On the 20th December 2012 a Killke structure is reported to have been discovered but as you can see in the link the structure is pretty basic.

http://www.laht.com/...ategoryId=14095

Just because they have a c 14 date of 1100 AD for people residing at Sachsayhuaman it doesn’t necessarily mean that it was constructed at that time or by them, so the search continues.

When you go to Sachsayhuaman you always picture the fortress/temple or ceremonial centre (delete where necessary) but on the other side is a place called Rodadero (sliding place) which is a fascinating place.

P1000648-1.jpg

P1000607.jpg

Sachsa_Uma_Complex_Near_Sachsayhuaman_Cuzco11-13-20121-49-15AM_zps37bd555f.jpg

This is called the Inca throne, purpose unknown.

sacsayhuaman-7-large.jpg

Sachsa_Uma_Complex_Near_Sachsayhuaman_Cuzco11-13-20122-16-32AM_zpsdfc15700.jpg

P1000627.jpg

This place is huge with many different building styles and still lots more to be re discovered

65143551.jpg/

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As you can see the museum is in chaos .

It was already in chaos 21 years ago, lol.

Javier Cabrera just stacked all he could buy from the locals on the shelves in what he called his museum.

If only he had known these locals saw him as a source of money.

In 1991 the country was in chaos because of the Sendero Luminoso and the corrupt government, police and army, and 85 % of the population lived in poverty. So selling 'ancient artifacts' to Cabrera was an easy way to earn a buck or two, And he gobbled it all up, hook line and sinker.

Back then you had no idea whom to trust, and people advised you to look over your shoulder every minute to check if someone was following you.

I still can't walk outside without checking if anyone is walking behind me.

Poppet, are you still in Peru? If so, do you plan to visit Arequipa?

You know why I ask.

And you won't regret it anyway: I fell in love with that old city (and with a woman, heh).

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Cutting out alcoves and seats seemed to be just done randomly and this is found at many sites these are at Sachsayhuaman.

sac3.jpg

sac5.jpg

sac6.jpg

Sachsa_Uma_Complex_Near_Sachsayhuaman_Cuzco11-13-20122-10-16AM_zpsd26787e5.jpg

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Chinchero

The stonework here is neat random work, but nothing like we see in Cusco

Regretfully, as in most of the towns or temples near Cuzco, Chinchero was wrecked and modified by the "idolatries extirpators". Its destruction began when Manko Inca after his campaign in Cuzco decided to discharge his soldiers so that they could go back to their farmlands and take care of their families; he went towards Ollantaytambo passing through Chinchero and burning it so that the invaders who were persecuting him could not have either food or lodging. Subsequently in 1572, Viceroy Toledo founded the "Doctrine of Our Lady of Monserrat of Chinchero" and ordered construction of the present-day Catholic Church that was finished by the first years of the XVII century; possibly in 1607, that is the year found in the writing over the main arch inside the church. The whole church was built using as foundations the finely carved limestone that belonged to a great Inca palace. The entrails of the fine Inca building were filled up as high as the roofs with earth brought from some other sectors. It was in the 1960s when the Incan palace was discovered under the Catholic Church. The Incan palace must have been very important because on its facade facing to the southern plain presents openings of triple jamb that by themselves indicate its category.

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Chinchero_Pery11-13-201211-54-56PM_zpse4c644c8.jpg

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Evidence of re cycled material is evident.

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Clearly we can see substantial weathering on these re used coping stones.

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the labour involved in the construction of the terracing boggles the mind especially when this work has all been attributed to Tupac Yupanqui (1471-93) who incidentally spent most of his reign expanding the inca empire as far north as Quito, the capital city of Ecuador .

P1000694.jpg

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Ollantaytambo

Ollantaytambo is located about 50 miles north of Cuzco, the capital of the Inca Empire, at about 9000 feet above sea level. The site was first a royal estate for the Inca Pachacuti, between 1437 and 1471, who apparently destroyed a previous town to build his residence.

This again depends on what guide book you read, as there are many interpretations and that’s all they are, on one hand you have the Spanish version written by Pedro de Cieza de Leon first published in 1554 or you can have the Inca version Royal Commentaries of the Incas by Garcilaso De La Vega El Inca written in the early 1600’s but had to go through the Spanish church censors which apparently only took five years.

In all the literature written over the past 500 years, nobody has any real idea of how and who built this place. I’ve read that it was also built by the first age, whatever that means, by giants or was never finished again this all depends on which book you invest in.

Ollantaytambo_Complex_Peru11-14-20122-27-31AM_zpsfa084f33.jpg

Ollantaytambo_Complex_Peru11-14-20124-04-41AM_zps024df129.jpg

These images give you a sense of the scale of the site.

P1000706.jpg

This image was taken on one of three rest stops just to get to the top (lack of oxygen) and you can see the alleged carving of virocoucha in the top left hand corner and a grain store to the right.

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Ollantaytambo_Complex_Peru11-14-20122-31-45AM_zps4d89b3b9.jpg

Natural looking to me but I guess it’s in the eye of the beholder.

Ollantaytambo_Complex_Peru11-14-20122-30-56AM_zps79b61b46.jpg

close up of the grain store .

Ollantaytambo_Complex_Peru11-14-20123-22-07AM_zps62e12e64.jpg

Right at the top we are introduced to some huge stone blocks and magnificent stone work.

P1000716.jpg

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P1000729.jpg

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Ollantaytambo_Complex_Peru11-14-20122-58-27AM_zps5aeb35c3.jpg

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In this image we can see the mountain where these blocks were quarried, brought down the mountain, across a river and then up to the position there in now.

There are over 80 blocks that have been quarried and left in different positions along the route to the site, this is I believe why some have suggested the site was still under construction, but I would suggest that these later blocks were to fortify Ollantaytambo from the Spanish and by the mid 1530’s their wasn’t the man power left to move the blocks from the quarry to the site

.here is a very funny experiment done by the nova team and Protzen who tried to replicate the moving of only a one ton block from the quarry.

http://www.videopedi...ire-Part-1-of-6

While im on the subject of quarry’s here again are two experiments done at Ollantaytambo by Protzen an accomplished stone mason who attempts to replicate ancient stone cutting methods.

http://www.videopedi...ire-Part-3-of-6

http://www.videopedi...ire-Part-4-of-6

so it took 13 days just to fit this one stone in this experiment and that’s his conclusive proof.

The welded rhyolite stones used at the ‘Inca’ site of Ollantaytambo had a hardness of between 6 and 7 on the Mohs scale. Protzen does not mention performing experiments with that type of rock. Nor did he try to shape many-angled, interlocking stones. Nor did he experiment with multi-tonne blocks. A. Hyatt Verrill writes:

No sane man can believe that a twenty-ton stone was pecked here and there, dropped into position, hoisted out and trued and cut over and over again, until a perfect fit was obtained. Even if we can imagine such endless herculean labour being performed, it would have been impossible in many cases owing to the fact that the stones are locked or dovetailed together. Although some of the stones are fairly square or rectangular and with six faces, many are irregular in form, and some have as many as thirty-two angles. The only way in which such complex forms could have been fitted with such incredible accuracy was by cutting each block to extremely fine measurements, or by means of a template, a process which would indicate that these prehistoric people possessed a most thorough and advanced knowledge of engineering and the higher mathematics.

Pounding a block with a hammer stone leaves scars, or pit marks, and in the case of limestone, it produces whitish discoloration in or around the scar. Protzen sees the fact that the stones used in Inca walls bear similar scars as proof that only his own method had been used. He cites several writers from the time of the conquest in support of his view. Garcilaso de la Vega wrote in 1609 that the Incas ‘had no other tools to work the stones than some black stones ... with which they dressed the stone by pounding rather than cutting’. Jose de Acosta, a Jesuit priest traveling with the conquistadors, wrote in 1589: ‘All this was done with much manpower and much suffering in the work, for to fit one stone to the other, until they were adjusted, it was necessary to try the fit many times.’3 There is no doubt that such techniques were used during Inca times. But was that the only method the Incas used? And more importantly, were all ‘Inca’-style buildings really constructed by the Incas? Or was the polygonal, cyclopean masonry the work of a far earlier culture?

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Can you imagine sculpting this with hammer stones and copper chisels?

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Ollantaytambo_Complex_Peru11-14-20123-48-31AM_zps6615755b.jpg

I wonder how long it would take Protzen to dress these stones into their present form and their not too dissimilar from stonework we will see at Puma Punka .

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P1000732_zps150f7e83.jpg

here we can see a key stone cut with what may be the left over traces of whatever was poured into it over spilling down the side.

Ollantaytambo_Complex_Peru11-14-20123-41-51AM_zps5d3f30ab.jpg

this is believed to be a calendar using the shadows from the carved out knobs to determine the solstices.

Ollantaytambo_Complex_Peru11-14-20123-47-24AM_zpsf15b1067.jpg

these niches may seem quite standard but believe me , they would be extremely hard to produce using their alleged basic tools.

P1000755.jpg

You certainly need a head for heights at this site.

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P1000967_zpsae3099f8.jpg

here you can see the ramp going up to Ollantaytambo

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At some point I started admiring the people still living in Peru and forgot about all those fancy rocks.

But I lived there for half a year, working as a translator (German, English) for the company of the father of the woman I thought I had a relationship with.

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It was already in chaos 21 years ago, lol.

Poppet, are you still in Peru? If so, do you plan to visit Arequipa?

I'm back in th UK , i spent nearly 3 weeks in Peru only staying in 2 hotels 2, nights running lots and lots of traveling with a organized tour .......not without it's ups and downs i may add.

Peru is a stunning country and i would go back tomorrow but on my own and sorry the furthest down we managed was nazca.

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great pics popps ..... :tu:

we need more stone mason experts to get out in the field methinks

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