Man invented religion

[Frank Merton]

Communism was not and is not a Christian cult,you're reaching.If Marx was Christian it did not translate into his philosophy.The point is this,you cannot blame the ills of society on the belief in a diety. You can trace most of societies problems to these sources: Money...Power....Greed.

That Marx came out of a Christian milieu is obvious enough, and that many of his assumptions about the world are Christian is well understood. That he was anti-Christian is also plain, much as one Christian cult denounces another, he also picked up Christian intolerance.

I repeat, most atheists are very moral people.

[libstaK]

I'm not sure what your point is; it can be argued that Communism as it was back then was a sort of religion -- in fact a Christian cult. It has the apocalyptic and historic world view of Christian Europe, the social utopianism and egalitarianism, and the sense of the inherent evil or sinfulness of humanity -- all subconsciously derived from Christian thinking that Marx grew up in.

All you are saying here is that if it's not religion, then it will be another idea that mankind will sell in place of religion to control the masses. It is not belief in God in and of itself that has ever been the issue, it is the use of people's belief of God to lead them around by the nose that is at the heart of the issue. Ergo, the true issue is that history is filled with the "Art of the Conman", and the better someone is at selling an idea, the more power and riches he can attract to himself.

[libstaK]

Communism was not and is not a Christian cult,you're reaching.If Marx was Christian it did not translate into his philosophy.The point is this,you cannot blame the ills of society on the belief in a diety. You can trace most of societies problems to these sources: Money...Power....Greed.

Exactly

[Grandpa Greenman]

And I could dig up a 100 people who give religion a bad name. So...?

[Royal]

I actually read "Mein Kampf" I don't know if he was but there was a lot of references that were pro Christianity in it. He was a politician and sadly like so many American politicians he knew how to pay the religion card. I am amazed how many people get sucked into voting some crook into office because of his or her supposed religion. He was raised in a Catholic house hold, does that mean anyone who is raised in a Catholic house will turn into a Hitler. Is that not the same fallacy as saying he was an atheist therefore all atheist are Nazis or Communist. Guilt by association doesn't fly well in a good debate.

You are missing the entire point.The OP blames religion for everything that goes wrong,which is silly.I'm not saying all athiests are Nazis or Communists,rather all Nazis and Communists are athiests.I have no guilt,I'm not religious.

[Frank Merton]

Certain kinds of religion -- the ideological or cultic kind -- the one's who say, "I am right and everyone who disagrees is evil" -- are the cause of a lot of problems, and this includes religious ideologies like some flavors of Communism and Fascism.

Atheists don't need God or some ideology to do what is right and be moral people. I rather took the devil's list above as an attack on atheism that went too far.

[Grandpa Greenman]

You are missing the entire point.The OP blames religion for everything that goes wrong,which is silly.I'm not saying all athiests are Nazis or Communists,rather all Nazis and Communists are athiests.I have no guilt,I'm not religious.

Your missing my point, when you bring up Hitler and the other world jerks in a discussion you are opening up a Logical Fallacy of "guilt by association." Take a class in Logic and learn the fine art of being a smart a** like me.

That's my point,Hitler was not a religious man.Would things have went differently had he had a religious upbringing. And while we're at it how about Lenin and Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot.

Sorry man, but Hitler had a religious upbringing. So your argument mote.

Edited March 25, 2013 by Darkwind

[Frank Merton]

Most of those chaps had a religious upbringing. Maybe all of them.

[Grandpa Greenman]

oops goof up.

Edited March 25, 2013 by Darkwind

[GoldenWolf]

I agree where did the laws of moral behavior that we are judged on , do not kill ,steal, cheat, or lie come from, if not from religion.

Common sense, it was around before religion.

[Frank Merton]

It is possible to construct ethical systems out of fundamental principles (axioms) that do a better job than anything in any of the religious traditions. I would mention the three that I tend to pay attention to most -- that of the various flavors of utilitarianism, Kant's ethical imperative, and the Confucian system.

As religious systems go, that derived from Buddhist compassion works without a god too.

[libstaK]

And I could dig up a 100 people who give religion a bad name. So...?

The list of immoral atheists was in response to this quote below from Frank Merton:

It's kinda interesting that criminals tend to be very religious, in a dumb, superstitious sort of way, while atheists tend to be moral and honest and kind people in an intelligent sort of way.

Exactly, how would you read this

criminals = religious, dumb, superstitious

atheist = moral, honest, kind and intelligent

If you think that is a fair assessment, I have misjudged you.

Edited March 25, 2013 by libstaK

[Royal]

Your missing my point, when you bring up Hitler and the other world jerks in a discussion you are opening up a Logical Fallacy of "guilt by association." Take a class in Logic and learn the fine art of being a smart a** like me.

Sorry man, but Hitler had a religious upbringing. So your argument mote.

By bringng up these"world jerks" I was making the point that these men did what they did outside of religious morals.The question I asked in my post was "would things have been different" not that things would have definitely been different. I could'nt care less if any of them aspired to be the Pope at one time.The world is not perfect but religion is not the main culprit. Edited March 25, 2013 by Royal

[Frank Merton]

Is there anything inaccurate about what I said? I said nothing about religious people in general.

[libstaK]

Is there anything inaccurate about what I said? I said nothing about religious people in general.

Hmmmm, you know most days you make alot of sense, but I think you need to read what you wrote and decide, not if it was accurate but if it was fair to tilt the scales the way you did there.

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

That's my point,Hitler was not a religious man.Would things have went differently had he had a religious upbringing. And while we're at it how about Lenin and Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot.

Stalin had begun training to be a priest before he became a gangster and then a revolutionary. It has been public knowledge since end of Soviet Union that he secretly attended a chapel in the Kremlin during the war. During battle of Moscow in 1941 he had a plane constantly circling Moscow with an ikon on board. At the time this was kept secret. Judge if Stalin was an atheist or believer by what he did in private, what he did that he did not have to do, except by his faith. Hitler was raised as a Catholic, so it would have some bearing on his outlook, he could only be judged as an atheist if he had been one from birth, no matter what he thought, residues of religion would have remained. Lenin was probably the closest to being a true atheist, and as for Mao, I have no idea.

[Frank Merton]

Hmmmm, you know most days you make alot of sense, but I think you need to read what you wrote and decide, not if it was accurate but if it was fair to tilt the scales the way you did there.

I said it the way I said it carefully; I think perhaps you have a sensitivity here that I may have touched.

[libstaK]

I said it the way I said it carefully; I think perhaps you have a sensitivity here that I may have touched.

You tilted the scales in favour of atheism, that's not due to any sensitivity of mine. If you had said it in reverse, I would have posted 10 people that make Religions look bad.

[Frank Merton]

I don't think Stalin was religious. I think he was a sociopath playing Pascal's Wager.

[Frank Merton]

Well of course I favor atheism; I think it works better ethically and that most atheists are more moral and less hypocritical than most religious types. If I thought otherwise I'd join a church.

[libstaK]

Well of course I favor atheism; I think it works better ethically and that most atheists are more moral and less hypocritical than most religious types. If I thought otherwise I'd join a church.

Ah see, I am not "religious" because I think atheism makes for worse people. I am religious because I believe there is a God.

[Frank Merton]

Well you got me there. I don't.

I dare say if religion made better people I might be more inclined to doubt my conclusion, but it comes from logical rather than ethical thinking.

[soulpowertothenthdegree]

Clearly the point has been overlooked by most. Go back and read the entire post I wrote.

[Grandpa Greenman]

The list of immoral atheists was in response to this quote below from Frank Merton:

Exactly, how would you read this

criminals = religious, dumb, superstitious

atheist = moral, honest, kind and intelligent

If you think that is a fair assessment, I have misjudged you.

A** holes come in all walks of life religionus or otherwise.

I guess it gets annoying every time we discuss morals someone plays the Hitler card, Hitler needs to stay in the grave. All Hitler means is y'all have run out of sound arguments.

[Abramelin]

That is a huge generalisation you are making there.

Here is a list of 10 people who have given Atheists a bad name too ...

http://listverse.com...ism-a-bad-name/

Alfred Kinsey - Biologist and Pedophile

Napoleon Bonaparte

Thwan Shwe - Military Dictator, Burma

Kim Jong Il

Jeffrey Dahmer (claims to have discovered religion in prison by some accounts but not before)

Jim Jones (I disagree with this one actually) but the quote says that:

He said that he “took the church and used the church to bring people to atheism”. In 1978, 909 people at the restricted communist “sanctuary” he presided over in Jonestown, Guyana, committed “revolutionary suicide” at his command.

Benito Mussolini

"he tried to associate Fascism with Catholicism in order to garner dwindling support (however his widow made it clear that he was still staunchly atheist)."

Mao Zedong - Leader Communist Party China

"He also targeted anyone with links to the Chinese Nationalist Party as well as anyone who posed a threat to him. Five million were executed in death camps. 36 million were persecuted and tortured. There were even instances of cannibalism."

Pol Pot

Joseph Stalin

Oh and there is this guy: Israel Keyes, Serial Killer who committed suicide and an atheist.

http://www.examiner....er-offs-himself

I see you have put Napoleon in that list of atheists.

Then read this:

"I know men; and I tell you that Jesus Christ is not a man. Superficial minds see a resemblance between Christ and the founders of empires, and the gods of other religions. That resemblance does not exist. There is between Christianity and whatever other religions the distance of infinity..." So says Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821), emperor of France.

Napoleon expressed the following thoughts while he was exiled on the rock of St. Helena. There, the conqueror of civilized Europe had time to reflect on the measure of his accomplishments. He called Count Montholon to his side and asked him, "Can you tell me who Jesus Christ was?" The count declined to respond. Napoleon countered:

Well then, I will tell you. Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne and I myself have founded great empires; but upon what did these creations of our genius depend? Upon force. Jesus alone founded His empire upon love, and to this very day millions will die for Him. . . . I think I understand something of human nature; and I tell you, all these were men, and I am a man; none else is like Him: Jesus Christ was more than a man. . . . I have inspired multitudes with such an enthusiastic devotion that they would have died for me . . . but to do this it was necessary that I should be visibly present with the electric influence of my looks, my words, of my voice. When I saw men and spoke to them, I lightened up the flame of self-devotion in their hearts. . . . Christ alone has succeeded in so raising the mind of man toward the unseen, that it becomes insensible to the barriers of time and space. Across a chasm of eighteen hundred years, Jesus Christ makes a demand which is beyond all others difficult to satisfy; He asks for that which a philosopher may often seek in vain at the hands of his friends, or a father of his children, or a bride of her spouse, or a man of his brother. He asks for the human heart; He will have it entirely to Himself. He demands it unconditionally; and forthwith His demand is granted. Wonderful! In defiance of time and space, the soul of man, with all its powers and faculties, becomes an annexation to the empire of Christ. All who sincerely believe in Him, experience that remarkable, supernatural love toward Him. This phenomenon is unaccountable; it is altogether beyond the scope of man's creative powers. Time, the great destroyer, is powerless to extinguish this sacred flame; time can neither exhaust its strength nor put a limit to its range. This is it, which strikes me most; I have often thought of it. This it is which proves to me quite convincingly the Divinity of Jesus Christ.

http://www.adherents.com/people/pn/Napoleon.html