Monsanto Protection Act passed

[bmk1245]

Organic, funnily, does not need a bill to protect it from damages, Montsanto does. And that is the theme here.

[...]

"Organic" pesticides are as damaging/toxic as "evil" chemicals.

[...]

Besides, we know that there are other poisons that affect honeybees, just that, until Roundup appeared it did not look like they were capable of exterminating the whole species. And that Roundup is most probably one of the larger causants is easily demonstrated by the fact that SCCD only happens in large scale there where the use of Roundup is prevalent, i.e. mostly in the good old US of A. And there where absolutely no Roundup is used within 100 miles(like on the island I live on in Greece) there is no Sudden Colony Collapse Disorder. And yes, all other common insecticides are used here and we have cell phone masts. So they are not causing the problem.

[...]

As far as I know CCD is linked (so far) to pesticides - neonicotinoids. Does Roundup (herbicide) contains one?

BTW, what is the best way to fight potato blight in "organic" farming? Is copper sulfate friendly to bees?

[...]

And, a nice try to obfuscate the trans species spread of GM traits. We are not worried about corntatoes but about the fact that wild leguminous plants are acquiring the insect poison making abilities of GM modified canola (just to pick one example) and that we don't know what these plants will evolve naturally with the new acquired trait. Just because some people considering themselves above all natural laws are changing things they hardly understand does not mean that the natural evolution was decommissioned. And that will inevitably lead to some results we never intended nor are capable of controlling.

[...]

But you are not worried about all this when plants are bred by bastardizing with gamma/X-rays? BTW, what triggers plants (unrelated species) to "produce" vitamin C?

[...]

And those are the themes here. And that is why those considering themselves above the laws of nature need human laws to protect them from the damage they are causing.

Get real. We were playing this game for a very long time. Please find corn progenitor.

I'm not excluding traditional companies.

I'm saying that a company that has PROVEN to be less-then-moral will exploit this law. Hell, it probably bankrolled it.

Monsanto following the law? Good.

Everyone else following the law? Good.

Someone else breaking the law? Bad.

Monstanto breaking the law? Business as usual.

Less-than-moral? Well, quacks with less-than-moral claims have their support, and not only from "enlightened" folks, but from quackademia as well, not many are bothered with this.

I am not defending fraudulent/criminal activities, no way. But when unsubstantiated claims are thrown, please...

[acidhead]

You know they will take advantage of this law. It's like putting the fox in charge of the chicken house.

[questionmark]

"Organic" pesticides are as damaging/toxic as "evil" chemicals.

As far as I know CCD is linked (so far) to pesticides - neonicotinoids. Does Roundup (herbicide) contains one?

BTW, what is the best way to fight potato blight in "organic" farming? Is copper sulfate friendly to bees?

And before that the same company sponsored study came up with cell phones as cause while doing the best to suppress their own results pointing the finger at Roundup.

But you are not worried about all this when plants are bred by bastardizing with gamma/X-rays? BTW, what triggers plants (unrelated species) to "produce" vitamin C?

Which, if you know what you are talking about is less than sincere, as only products destined to consumption are sterilized with gamma and x-rays. There are laws prohibiting the same with seeds.

Get real. We were playing this game for a very long time. Please find corn progenitor.

.

Yes we have, but at the same time we were changing one plant at a time in a stable fashion, not infecting undesired other plants that are not even of the same species.

And as far as: Biological is as poisonous as.... the small difference is that most biological "poisons" have a very small life expectancy. To the contrary of those created in a lab, some of which have survived over 60 years now (DDT comes to mind) in the natural cycle.

[Ashotep]

Guess they did put the fox in charge of the chicken house.

[Sundew]

While I understand we have an ever increasing population that must be fed, I believe that it was wrong to issues patents on any form of life that could enter the food supply, and also, with rare exception, the genetic modification of plants and animals that we eat. This gives huge control to companies like Monsanto. Many of us are all unknowingly and unwillingly involved in a huge science experience. We are eating things that do not occur in the natural world, and this goes beyond mere hybridizing. We put the genetic material of ice fish into tomatoes, of bacteria in corn and so forth. We do not know what this may do in the human body longterm. Will there be an increase in cancer? Food allergies? I don't think we know at this point, but in some cases it has already had unintended side effects in the environment.

As an example, we took genes for Bacillus thuringiensis and inserted them into corn. BT is known to kill larvae of moths and butterflies and little else, the seemingly good idea was to protect corn from several pest species in the family Lepidoptera. While it did that, it also had unintended consequences; corn is wind pollinated and when the male parts of the plant began shedding pollen the pollen settled on other plant species, including milkweed. Milkweed is the only food source for Monarch Butterflies and they began dying off as their caterpillars ingested the pollen along with the milkweed. Now recently I read an article that the overwintering populations on Monarchs are in serious decline. Are the two events related? I don't know but it would interesting to track the use of this corn (if it is still being used) in Mexico and along the flyways of the Monarch.

And that is only one consequence, there may be many more on the way. And it may be more than just butterflies that are affected.

[bmk1245]

And before that the same company sponsored study came up with cell phones as cause while doing the best to suppress their own results pointing the finger at Roundup.

[...]

Ok, if Roundup is the main cause of CCD, why then the same is seen in Europe? Does Europe is sprayed with Roundup as well (if you don't have Roundup ready crops, whats the point of doing this)? And I'm not claiming neonicotinoids are solely responsible for CCD, nor do I claim Roundup is completely harmless.

[...]

Which, if you know what you are talking about is less than sincere, as only products destined to consumption are sterilized with gamma and x-rays. There are laws prohibiting the same with seeds.

[...]

Are you saying induced mutation breeding is nonexistant?

Seeds, pollen, vegetative parts, or tissue cultures treated by physical (radiation) or chemical mutagens.

(page 4).

[...]

Yes we have, but at the same time we were changing one plant at a time in a stable fashion, not infecting undesired other plants that are not even of the same species.

[...]

Any examples of not even of the same species infections? Are you talking about corntatoes again?

[...]

And as far as: Biological is as poisonous as.... the small difference is that most biological "poisons" have a very small life expectancy. To the contrary of those created in a lab, some of which have survived over 60 years now (DDT comes to mind) in the natural cycle.

The same was claimed about Roundup. Just wait for upcoming researches which may show that small life expectancy of biological "poisons" may not be true.

[bmk1245]

While I understand we have an ever increasing population that must be fed, I believe that it was wrong to issues patents on any form of life that could enter the food supply, and also, with rare exception, the genetic modification of plants and animals that we eat. This gives huge control to companies like Monsanto. Many of us are all unknowingly and unwillingly involved in a huge science experience. We are eating things that do not occur in the natural world, and this goes beyond mere hybridizing. We put the genetic material of ice fish into tomatoes, of bacteria in corn and so forth. We do not know what this may do in the human body longterm. Will there be an increase in cancer? Food allergies? I don't think we know at this point, but in some cases it has already had unintended side effects in the environment.

As an example, we took genes for Bacillus thuringiensis and inserted them into corn. BT is known to kill larvae of moths and butterflies and little else, the seemingly good idea was to protect corn from several pest species in the family Lepidoptera. While it did that, it also had unintended consequences; corn is wind pollinated and when the male parts of the plant began shedding pollen the pollen settled on other plant species, including milkweed. Milkweed is the only food source for Monarch Butterflies and they began dying off as their caterpillars ingested the pollen along with the milkweed. Now recently I read an article that the overwintering populations on Monarchs are in serious decline. Are the two events related? I don't know but it would interesting to track the use of this corn (if it is still being used) in Mexico and along the flyways of the Monarch.

And that is only one consequence, there may be many more on the way. And it may be more than just butterflies that are affected.

Erm...

Spores and crystalline insecticidal proteins produced by B. thuringiensis have been used to control insect pests since the 1920s and are often applied as liquid sprays.[15] They are now used as specific insecticides under trade names such as Dipel and Thuricide. Because of their specificity, these pesticides are regarded as environmentally friendly, with little or no effect on humans, wildlife, pollinators, and most other beneficial insects and are used in Organic farming.[16]

(link; emphasis mine)

[AsteroidX]

Should burn the tards crops off. There blighty.

[questionmark]

Any examples of not even of the same species infections? Are you talking about corntatoes again?

yes: http://www.nerc.ac.uk/press/releases/2007/19-gmcrops.asp?cookieConsent=A

Trying to deny dozens of studies showing it is either out of ignorance of the facts (can happen, I don't know everything either) or someone is trying to hide something. And it gets worse, it even happens, as I pointed out before between cultivated plants and wild plants where I expect the worst problems to come in the next decades.

Colony collapse happens in Europe due to varoa mites (mostly, there are also a few cases of viral infections and insecticides) and has nowhere achieved the extend of the US of A, and even so the European Commission is drafting up laws to ban a whole series of insecticides.

So please try to sell your "gm is good for you" line to somebody who has not bothered to check the facts, I been in agriculture long enough to know them. As long as we don't know all the facts new technologies should be kept under strictt control where the impact would be minimal. Having fallen so far for both atomic power ( where the refuse heap gets higher by the weak and being a danger for the next few thousand years to come) and gm crops we should have learned something.... instead of passing bills that socialize the damages and privatize the gains.

[bmk1245]

yes: http://www.nerc.ac.u...cookieConsent=A

Trying to deny dozens of studies showing it is either out of ignorance of the facts (can happen, I don't know everything either) or someone is trying to hide something. And it gets worse, it even happens, as I pointed out before between cultivated plants and wild plants where I expect the worst problems to come in the next decades.

[...]

Breed A and breed B of corn are of different species?! Oh boy... White power morons are ecstatic...

Some (if not many) crops are bred by cross pollination with wild plants (same species). If I have breed A and you have breed B of corn, they will cross pollinate - outcome is big ? Its no way around. Lets try it once again: I have breed A (resistive to pests (i.e. "might be producing bad chemicals in safe amounts for humans") and you have breed B (likes drought, i.e. "might be producing bad chemicals in safe amounts for humans") of corn, when they cross pollinate in the end you will have breed C, which may "produce even more (in quantity) bad chemicals for humans", etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...

[...]

Colony collapse happens in Europe due to varoa mites (mostly, there are also a few cases of viral infections and insecticides) and has nowhere achieved the extend of the US of A, and even so the European Commission is drafting up laws to ban a whole series of insecticides.

[...]

And Roundup is herbicide.

[...]

So please try to sell your "gm is good for you" line to somebody who has not bothered to check the facts, [...]

I'm not selling "gm is good for you", I'm, just saying GM crops (tested in the same way as other products) are as harmful as any other food.

[...]I been in agriculture long enough to know them. As long as we don't know all the facts new technologies should be kept under strictt control where the impact would be minimal. Having fallen so far for both atomic power ( where the refuse heap gets higher by the weak and being a danger for the next few thousand years to come) and gm crops we should have learned something.... instead of passing bills that socialize the damages and privatize the gains.

I highly doubt it. Of course, if you mean by agriculture your back yard garden, then *sigh*...

I've been in it (back-yard-garden) for almost 20 years. If you have crappy cultivar, no matter what you do - you can put cow pie in the soil, you can put industrial fertilizers, heck, you can feed them with your own crap, - it remains same crap... Variation in amount of sunny days, though, changes taste... (thats about tomatoes, strawberries)

On the other hand, I didn't tested kumbaya routine, dammit...

[bmk1245]

Should burn the tards crops off. There blighty.

Yeah, same was heard about potatoes in middle ages.

Such kind of posts just show caveman mentality... Yeah, burn potatoes, shmuck...

[questionmark]

Breed A and breed B of corn are of different species?! Oh boy... White power morons are ecstatic...

Some (if not many) crops are bred by cross pollination with wild plants (same species). If I have breed A and you have breed B of corn, they will cross pollinate - outcome is big ? Its no way around. Lets try it once again: I have breed A (resistive to pests (i.e. "might be producing bad chemicals in safe amounts for humans") and you have breed B (likes drought, i.e. "might be producing bad chemicals in safe amounts for humans") of corn, when they cross pollinate in the end you will have breed C, which may "produce even more (in quantity) bad chemicals for humans", etc, etc, etc, etc, etc...

And Roundup is herbicide.

I'm not selling "gm is good for you", I'm, just saying GM crops (tested in the same way as other products) are as harmful as any other food.

I highly doubt it. Of course, if you mean by agriculture your back yard garden, then *sigh*...

I've been in it (back-yard-garden) for almost 20 years. If you have crappy cultivar, no matter what you do - you can put cow pie in the soil, you can put industrial fertilizers, heck, you can feed them with your own crap, - it remains same crap... Variation in amount of sunny days, though, changes taste... (thats about tomatoes, strawberries)

On the other hand, I didn't tested kumbaya routine, dammit...

kumbaya? Looks like you are not interested in discussion nor facts, you are only interested in showing Montsanto down out throat.

[bmk1245]

kumbaya? Looks like you are not interested in discussion nor facts, you are only interested in showing Montsanto down out throat.

Heh? Put facts on Roundup (solely) being responsible for CCD. Put facts on GM food causing more harm than conventional food. Please post statistics on cancer incidence rates in US (since US is the most GM food consumer)....

All this anti-GM(GE) is just efking medieval superstition...

Once again, raise your hands to burn potatoes... One, Two, Three...Anyone?

Do I have to create thread with how we hate new crops on our land? Just ask me, and see results....

[NiteMarcher]

Monsanto Company (NYSE: MON) is a publicly traded American multinationalagricultural biotechnology corporation headquartered in Creve Coeur, Missouri.^[3][4] It is a leading producer of genetically engineered (GE) seed and of the herbicide glyphosate, which it markets under the Roundup brand. (IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY)

It remained one of the top 10 U.S. chemical companies until it divested most of its chemical businesses between 1997 and 2002, through a process of mergers and spin-offs that focused the company on biotechnology. (IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY)

The company also formerly manufactured controversial products such as the insecticide DDT, PCBs, Agent Orange, and recombinant bovine somatotropin. (Don't forget, it's all ABOUT THE MONEY, and not about LIFE)

Monsanto was a pioneer in applying the biotechnology industry business model to agriculture, using techniques developed by Genentech and other biotech drug companies in the late 1970s in California.^[7] In this business model, companies invest heavily in research and development, and recoup the expenses through the use and enforcement of biological patents.^{[8][9][10][11]} Monsanto's application of this model to agriculture, along with a growing movement to create a global, uniform system of plant breeders' rights in the 1980s, came into direct conflict with customary practices of farmers to save, reuse, share and develop plant varieties. (IT'S DEFINITELY ABOUT THE MONEY)

Its seed patenting model has also been criticized asbiopiracy and a threat to biodiversity.^[13][14][15] Monsanto's role in these changes in agriculture (which include its litigation and its seed commercialization practices^[16]), its current and former agbiotech products, its lobbying of government agencies, and its history as a chemical company, have made Monsanto controversial. (AGAIN, IT'S ABOUT THE MONEY)

[Guest]

Heh? Put facts on Roundup (solely) being responsible for CCD. Put facts on GM food causing more harm than conventional food. Please post statistics on cancer incidence rates in US (since US is the most GM food consumer)....

All this anti-GM(GE) is just efking medieval superstition...

Once again, raise your hands to burn potatoes... One, Two, Three...Anyone?

Do I have to create thread with how we hate new crops on our land? Just ask me, and see results....

I saw a Horizon program about datamining the human genome project. They finally acknowledge that the 98% "junk" DNA is nothing of the sort, but that the reason they call it such is because they simply don't understand it. GMO crops are based on the assumption that you can insert a gene which codes for a particular protein (in a random way - just force it in somewhere and if it lives and produces the protein its OK), they are ignoring the fact that what they have done interacts with the 98% "junk" DNA in ways they have no understanding of. They have no understanding because they don't know the structure or function of 98% of the DNA.

Is it superstition to be concerned when people are messing about with the building blocks of life when they acknowledge that they only understand less than 5% of what is going on. Its criminally insane to allow commercial interests to dominate when the testing has been shown to be dodgy and corrupt with no FDA oversight to speak of.

Don't imagine that you know enough to call on this, since to my certain knowledge NO-ONE knows enough to start manipulating the genetic code of a living organism.

Br Cornelius

[Guest]

Selective breeding is entirely different to genetic engineering, and to claim that they are in any way comparable shows complete ignorance or dishonesty.

Br Cornelius

[AsteroidX]

BMK. Your not posting any facts yourself. I personally have posted many facts about the damages of GMO crops on both those that consume them and the environment. Please become literate and yes burning them is the best option as they have destroyed the soil as well as the environment around them.

Educate yourself before posting please.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLa7JTOsvuh1m_7v9tl2HP7NX4bB4h1yoM&v=6VEZYQF9WlE&feature=player_detailpage[/media]

Edited April 7, 2013 by AsteroidX

[Ashotep]

Here's a taste of what Monsanto is like if you cross them.

Indiana Farmer Takes Seed-Giant Monsanto To Supreme Court

Seed Giants Sue U.S. Farmers Over Genetically Modified Seed Patents In Shocking Numbers: Report

Roll reversal here.

Reversing roles, farmers sue Monsanto over GMO seeds

[AsteroidX]

I really do like a good cartoon from time to time. Not those CG created ones but good ol' animation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=745tvx5NAtg

[acidhead]

yes: http://www.nerc.ac.u...cookieConsent=A

Trying to deny dozens of studies showing it is either out of ignorance of the facts (can happen, I don't know everything either) or someone is trying to hide something. And it gets worse, it even happens, as I pointed out before between cultivated plants and wild plants where I expect the worst problems to come in the next decades.

Colony collapse happens in Europe due to varoa mites (mostly, there are also a few cases of viral infections and insecticides) and has nowhere achieved the extend of the US of A, and even so the European Commission is drafting up laws to ban a whole series of insecticides.

So please try to sell your "gm is good for you" line to somebody who has not bothered to check the facts, I been in agriculture long enough to know them. As long as we don't know all the facts new technologies should be kept under strictt control where the impact would be minimal. Having fallen so far for both atomic power ( where the refuse heap gets higher by the weak and being a danger for the next few thousand years to come) and gm crops we should have learned something.... instead of passing bills that socialize the damages and privatize the gains.

Socializing the losses and privatizing the gains seems to be the new norm. Just toss out individual liberty and flush it down the collective toilet. What's good for the goose is 'good' for the whole gander.

[bmk1245]

[....]

Don't imagine that you know enough to call on this, since to my certain knowledge NO-ONE knows enough to start manipulating the genetic code of a living organism.

[...]

I never claimed that, but:

Ironically, in the EU, over three thousand radiation mutants with unknown changes to their genome have been deployed without any restrictions, but keeping the glowing zebra fish in an aquarium in a living room presents a “serious jeopardy to European nature and human health” with a fine up to 50 000 €.¹¹ Such a system is officially called “scientific” but in fact it is a flout to science.

[...]

Gene transfer from wild relatives is also objected to by the opponents of GM, despite the fact that similar but less pronounced effects were obtained through classical breeding procedures. For example, classical breeding produced potato varieties with partial resistance to the blight caused by Phytophthora infestans. The cause of resistance is unknown but there are no special regulations on the use of such potatoes, in contrast to the GM potato that carries a defined gene transferred from the wild Solanum bulbocastanum .

(link; emphasis mine; pages 14-15).

Just because you have new breed developed by "traditional" techniques, it does not mean it will be safer. Nor does it means that GM will be more harmful.

Selective breeding is entirely different to genetic engineering, and to claim that they are in any way comparable shows complete ignorance or dishonesty.

[...]

Achieving desirable goals using different techniques.

[bmk1245]

BMK. Your not posting any facts yourself. I personally have posted many facts about the damages of GMO crops on both those that consume them and the environment.[...]

Once again, post offical statistics on cancer incidence rates in US for 1997-2012.

[...] Please become literate and yes burning them is the best option as they have destroyed the soil as well as the environment around them.

[...]

If you'd follow your own advice, you'd know that destroyed the soil as well as the environment around them is due to extensive farming and has little to do with GM. Ever heard of chernozem soil state in Russia? It was wrecked long before GM.

As for burning... Somewhere I've seen such acts already... Burn everything you are afraid of...

[...]

Educate yourself before posting please.

[...]

My advice to you as well, again.

Edit to add: some stuff about burning...

Edited April 9, 2013 by bmk1245

[Guest]

I never claimed that, but:

(link; emphasis mine; pages 14-15).

Just because you have new breed developed by "traditional" techniques, it does not mean it will be safer. Nor does it means that GM will be more harmful.

Achieving desirable goals using different techniques.

It means that GM will produce an intrinsically more unpredictable result. Cross breeding ensures that the traint been selected for matches the same genetic sites in the cross as the original, this makes it relatively stable - it is far more unlikely that random unpredictable and hidden outcomes will result. The resultant cross is almost always going to manifest the same characteristics as one of the parents so knowing the traits of the parents offers great certainty about the result of the cross.

There is a risk from cross breeding traditionally - but it is far less and far more predictable than GM.

The fact that intensive agriculture has made some horendous mistakes in the past and the present - is not a good argument for allowing even more risky and unpredictable practices in the future. we should be learning from our mistakes.

Br Cornelius

Edited April 9, 2013 by Guest

[AsteroidX]

I dont have to post cancer statistics to want labeling of a food product. Sorry to tell you. Id rather name and shame those like Senator Blunt.

[media=]

[/media] Edited April 9, 2013 by AsteroidX

[bmk1245]

It means that GM will produce an intrinsically more unpredictable result. Cross breeding ensures that the traint been selected for matches the same genetic sites in the cross as the original, this makes it relatively stable - it is far more unlikely that random unpredictable and hidden outcomes will result. The resultant cross is almost always going to manifest the same characteristics as one of the parents so knowing the traits of the parents offers great certainty about the result of the cross.

There is a risk from cross breeding traditionally - but it is far less and far more predictable than GM.

The fact that intensive agriculture has made some horendous mistakes in the past and the present - is not a good argument for allowing even more risky and unpredictable practices in the future. we should be learning from our mistakes.

Br Cornelius

Ok, so you are saying that traditionally bred plants can't have negative impact (or at least far more predictable than GM) on health/environment (short/long term). How about herbicide tolerant Clearfield?

Imidazolinone-tolerant maize was developed from selections of cell culture and pollen mutagenesis. Similarly, imidazolinone-tolerant oilseed rape was derived from the mutagenesis of microspores. By comparison, imidazolinone-tolerant wheat and rice were developed from chemical mutagenesis of seeds. Different from other crops, imidazolinone-tolerant sunflower was obtained by selecting naturally occurring tolerant mutants in wild sunflower and transferring the trait to cultivated types. Because the imidazolinone tolerance was achieved without inserting foreign DNA, all commercialized imidazolinone-tolerant crops are non-transgenic, and may be marketed as non-GMO Clearfield^∗ crops.

(link; quote from conclusions)

Oh boy, herbicide tolerant? Thats evil! That in no way can do harm, right? And no need for long term research, right? And no way undetected/untested harmful metabolites/proteins can be produced by consequential cross breeding with other relatives, nor it can negatively impact environment (f@king their wild relatives) with all that battery of mutations? You say its far more predictable than GM? Can you show it with long term research? And, BTW, what is a long term, in your opinion? 20 years? 100 years? 1000 years?

Sorry, for so many question marks, but you have to answer those questions to yourself at first.

Edit: quote from conclusions

Edited April 10, 2013 by bmk1245