Near Death Experiences[NDEs]

[conspiracy buff]

I have read books on the subject of NDEs-Near Death Experiences and also watched documentaries with actual people who have died whether accidental or intentional and returned from their experiences to tell of their accounts. The biggest majority of these experiences are pleasant with people seeing a bright, white light or a bright tunnel that leads to what those involved describe as "Heaven" or wherever it is we go when we die. In contrast to that, there are also hellish NDEs in which people describe a horrible place where they are tortured and interact with demons and other residents of "Hell". What is most interesting about these hellish NDEs is that most people say it is as if you have a physical form or body and can be tortured and beaten. Whether these people come back from the good NDEs or the bad ones, these individuals are changed afterwards and very much believe in what they experience while dying or having been clinically dead.

Now science will claim that there is a part of our brain that copes with the dying process and insist that's all these NDEs are. Just a chemical reaction that is a part of dying. I do not think as many people would be having similar descriptions of the afterlife and what happens if it were just a brain chemical reaction. Since every person is distinctly different, I cannot believe that these experiences would all be the same. If it were just our brain's coping mechanism, we would all experience different things and not have universal similarities. Another common detail is that some people claim to see, talk to, touch, and otherwise interact with deceased loved ones. To me, this seems very logical in the context of dying or being near death. Again, it is almost always associated with this phenomena and science cannot explain a good portion of these events. What does everyone here believe about this topic?

[Rafterman]

Fairly typical neurological response to high levels of CO2 being present in the brain. Nothing really woo woo about it.

A good review can be found here:

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4261

But you're probably not going to like it. I find Dr. Sartori's research especially interesting.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Rafterman

[the_twilightzone]

Out of curiosity, how does science explain a person deaf or blind since birth having the ability to hear or see during NDEs? In the link posted above, it's mentioned that those with disabilities are often "whole" during NDEs, but I don't think an explanation was offered. Admittedly, I scanned a few of the paragraphs, so it's possible I missed something.

For the record, I'm not decided one way or the other, just very interested in the topic.

[spartan max2]

The above link is basically the lack of oxygen argument.NDEs sound real to me cause if the brain is in the process of dying it doesn't seem like it would be possible for it to be forming new memories, exapecially super vivid ones

[*Frank*]

I have read books on the subject of NDEs-Near Death Experiences and also watched documentaries with actual people who have died whether accidental or intentional and returned from their experiences to tell of their accounts. The biggest majority of these experiences are pleasant with people seeing a bright, white light or a bright tunnel that leads to what those involved describe as "Heaven" or wherever it is we go when we die. In contrast to that, there are also hellish NDEs in which people describe a horrible place where they are tortured and interact with demons and other residents of "Hell". What is most interesting about these hellish NDEs is that most people say it is as if you have a physical form or body and can be tortured and beaten. Whether these people come back from the good NDEs or the bad ones, these individuals are changed afterwards and very much believe in what they experience while dying or having been clinically dead.

Now science will claim that there is a part of our brain that copes with the dying process and insist that's all these NDEs are. Just a chemical reaction that is a part of dying. I do not think as many people would be having similar descriptions of the afterlife and what happens if it were just a brain chemical reaction. Since every person is distinctly different, I cannot believe that these experiences would all be the same. If it were just our brain's coping mechanism, we would all experience different things and not have universal similarities. Another common detail is that some people claim to see, talk to, touch, and otherwise interact with deceased loved ones. To me, this seems very logical in the context of dying or being near death. Again, it is almost always associated with this phenomena and science cannot explain a good portion of these events. What does everyone here believe about this topic?

Just wanted to address the bolded bit here. I think people having similar experiences makes it more likely that it is just the brain shutting down.

Although there are billions of people in the world and every one is different, we all react to certain stimuli the same way. If I get a cold or the flu I will have a cough, sore throat, runny nose, sneezes; some or all of the above. That is the same for every single person in the world.

So why is it so weird to think that people would have the same reactions when they are dying?

[Rafterman]

Just wanted to address the bolded bit here. I think people having similar experiences makes it more likely that it is just the brain shutting down.

Although there are billions of people in the world and every one is different, we all react to certain stimuli the same way. If I get a cold or the flu I will have a cough, sore throat, runny nose, sneezes; some or all of the above. That is the same for every single person in the world.

So why is it so weird to think that people would have the same reactions when they are dying?

Probably not dissimilar to those very similar anxiety dreams that millions of people have. It's just how our mind is wired.

[Rafterman]

Out of curiosity, how does science explain a person deaf or blind since birth having the ability to hear or see during NDEs? In the link posted above, it's mentioned that those with disabilities are often "whole" during NDEs, but I don't think an explanation was offered. Admittedly, I scanned a few of the paragraphs, so it's possible I missed something.

For the record, I'm not decided one way or the other, just very interested in the topic.

No clue. But my first question would be - are persons who are deaf or blind since birth having those types of experiences?

The above link is basically the lack of oxygen argument.NDEs sound real to me cause if the brain is in the process of dying it doesn't seem like it would be possible for it to be forming new memories, exapecially super vivid ones

Why not?

[spartan max2]

Why not?

Based on what we know about the brain currently, our knowledges suggest that our brain needs oxygen to form memories. If NDE's are from the brain dying from lack of oxygen then it wouldent be able to form new memories when it has no oxygen. The more vivid the memory the more connections it has to make which means vivid ones would need even more oxygen.

[spartan max2]

No clue. But my first question would be - are persons who are deaf or blind since birth having those types of experiences?

The answer to that is yes. Unless the people takeing the surveys are not telling the truth. Which could be true too.

[The_Spirit_of_Truth]

There are people and then there are people. The people who rule the mankind often make their own people who were close to their death and survived claim that they have seen this or that in order the make the other people believe in it. Excerpt from "How Are Religions Made":

Example 1: People are to believe that after death some of our souls are welcomed by one of the mightiest gods, similar to an angel having six wings. A chosen member of the world's mafia, very credibly impressing, will claim, that he had a vision of such a god and at the same time more mafia's members in the various parts of the world will claim that they saw that god when they lost their consciousness or during some near death experience and that he was welcoming their souls. And then many people will believe in such a god.

Example 2: People are to believe that the extraterrestrials are dropping on the planet their own members, looking like beautiful women with red hair. A lot of mafia's members (serious witnesses to you) from many locations of the entire world will then claim, that they saw a flying disc that touched down near some city and an extraterrestrial one came out of it looking like a beautiful woman with red hair, entered the city and disappeared from their sight. And then many of you will start to believe it.

[Ultima Weapon]

Certainly hardcore convincing evidences. Now all that's left is connecting it all into one big picture to understand the afterlife.

[conspiracy buff]

Just wanted to address the bolded bit here. I think people having similar experiences makes it more likely that it is just the brain shutting down.

We must agree to disagree on this point then. I do not believe in coincidence, nor do I think mainstream science has given a plausible explanation to why these NDEs happen. It very well may be a simple brain and chemical combination reaction. My earlier point to which you bolded is that since every individual is different and has different outlooks, religions, and belief systems that their experience would differ if this were a simple death coping mechanism from our brains. I can see your point here, I just simply disagree with it respectfully.

Although there are billions of people in the world and every one is different, we all react to certain stimuli the same way. If I get a cold or the flu I will have a cough, sore throat, runny nose, sneezes; some or all of the above. That is the same for every single person in the world.[/Quote]

It is basic common sense that people are the same, physically speaking. We all have two eyes, two hands, a nose, a mouth, and indeed, we even react to certain stimuli in the exact same way. No disagreeing with that fact. However, I'm of the opinion that these NDEs are not simple stimuli reactions from a chemical brain reaction to the dying process. There are unexplained elements to the NDEs that cannot be mere chemical reactions or coincidental. Like someone else above stated, deaf people have heard things during their NDEs. Mute people have the ability to speak during NDEs. Blind people describe seeing during their experiences. All of these things would seem to indicate something beyond coincidence or brain chemicals giving delusions. I'm sure there are those who don't agree with my viewpoint, which I understand and welcome. If there's any evidence or studies that have been done that can explain why these impossible things happen, I'm all for hearing it. Up until now, I've seen nothing to dismiss these NDEs as anything other than the real deal.

So why is it so weird to think that people would have the same reactions when they are dying?

I am not naïve. There are some people that rely solely on logic or science to describe things in this world that are often indescribable. Simply put, I think it is weird to think that people from different cultures, beliefs, backgrounds, and locations would all have almost exactly the same types of experiences. For example, why would there be the same sights, sounds, or details that are almost identical? Some may see that as random and coincidence. If everything about the near death experiences were explained by irrefutable scientific evidence, I would be inclined to dismiss it as a mere coincidental chemical reaction that we all have. Anyone who has read about these experiences in-depth or has researched it to any degree would notice that there are too many details about them to be either random or coincidental. Too much of it cannot be fully explained and that's the reason I believe there is something very real to this.

[notforgotten]

Now science will claim that there is a part of our brain that copes with the dying process and insist that's all these NDEs are. Just a chemical reaction that is a part of dying.

They say this of the schizophrenic who has heard God, seen Jesus, the Holy Spirit, Angels, saints, demons and the human devils as well - they lie.

I do not think as many people would be having similar descriptions of the afterlife and what happens if it were just a brain chemical reaction.

I agree.

Another common detail is that some people claim to see, talk to, touch, and otherwise interact with deceased loved ones.

God said that those with faith would be "gathered to their people".

[Rafterman]

Based on what we know about the brain currently, our knowledges suggest that our brain needs oxygen to form memories. If NDE's are from the brain dying from lack of oxygen then it wouldent be able to form new memories when it has no oxygen. The more vivid the memory the more connections it has to make which means vivid ones would need even more oxygen.

Link please. And, if true, what are the thresholds?

[Rafterman]

The answer to that is yes. Unless the people takeing the surveys are not telling the truth. Which could be true too.

Again, links. What surveys?

And if you think about it, if someone has been deaf/blind since birth, and then says they could see/hear during a NDE, how do we know that's really the case. I'm sure in their mind they "think" they know what it's like to see/hear.

[jjphere]

I had an NDE experience, or at least I believe I did, and I wrote about it here, in "Alive Again".

I changed... now I didn't say I was perfect, but I changed "big time". Before my NDE, when I married, I had to go with

my fiance to talk to a strict church pastor. I was supposed to "know" that I was saved and going to

Heaven one day. I didn't know that and I was not going to lie about it either, but it turned out that he

didn't ask, and so he married us.

After my NDE, I know 100% for sure that there is a God and a Christ,

and a Holy Spirit, and yes I am going to Heaven when I die.

If I said that I did not know then I would be lying.

[Rafterman]

The one thing you have to understand about science is that they don't know the answers as to why NDE's happen, they have about as many facts as religion does. All they have done is given their best guess to what is happening, and even that is full of holes. I mean, there's stories of some people who have NDE's in theatre who can describe in great detail what they saw during a life saving operation. I guess that's just a chemical reaction in the brain too. Unfortunately, for the cases science can't explain, usually it is the "liar" label which comes out.

I don't believe in Heaven or Hell perse but for sure I could see why a certain individual might see demons during a NDE. When you die, the barriers come down and you're likely to be surrounded by negative entities if you have a negative energy yourself.

Death is nothing to fear, energy cannot be destroyed. It really will be like just stepping into another room and I for one (in the most non-morbid way possible) can't wait to get back home

How then do you correlate that to the Sartori research discussed in my link? Frankly I think most of us could make a fairly accurate stab at describing a surgical procedure. And who are these descriptions made to? Authors writing NDE books or the surgeon/nurse who was in the room at the time?

[Rafterman]

I am not naïve. There are some people that rely solely on logic or science to describe things in this world that are often indescribable. Simply put, I think it is weird to think that people from different cultures, beliefs, backgrounds, and locations would all have almost exactly the same types of experiences. For example, why would there be the same sights, sounds, or details that are almost identical? Some may see that as random and coincidence. If everything about the near death experiences were explained by irrefutable scientific evidence, I would be inclined to dismiss it as a mere coincidental chemical reaction that we all have. Anyone who has read about these experiences in-depth or has researched it to any degree would notice that there are too many details about them to be either random or coincidental. Too much of it cannot be fully explained and that's the reason I believe there is something very real to this.

How then do you explain anxiety dreams? Millions of people around the world in very different cultures have the same kinds of dreams.

Or for that matter, what about sleep paralysis? Millions describe seeing the same types of entities in the room with them during SP episodes - old hags, demons, aliens, shadow figures, etc.

[notforgotten]

.Or for that matter, what about sleep paralysis? Millions describe seeing the same types of entities in the room with them during SP episodes - old hags, demons, aliens, shadow figures, etc.

I believe that I can answer that question. Just pretend that I'm the final authority on the matter and that my word is the end of end all. LOL IMO sleep paralysis is really were the body is asleep but the spirit is awake. I believe those people really did see old hags, demons, aliens, shadow figures, etc. Edited April 10, 2013 by notforgotten

[spartan max2]

Again, links. What surveys?

And if you think about it, if someone has been deaf/blind since birth, and then says they could see/hear during a NDE, how do we know that's really the case. I'm sure in their mind they "think" they know what it's like to see/hear.

http://near-death.com/experiences/evidence03.html

http://readersupportednews.org/pm-section/398-science/7170-new-evidence-suggests-that-the-near-death-experience-is-the-spirit-leaving-the-body-and-not-just-a-dying-brain

[spartan max2]

Link please. And, if true, what are the thresholds?

http://www.ehow.com/list_5801941_signs-symptoms-lack-oxygen-brain.html

look at the loss of memory part

[White Crane Feather]

The dying brain hypothesis has been defeated over and over again on many fronts and amounts to nothing more than conjecture..... fundamentalists groping in the dark

[conspiracy buff]

How then do you explain anxiety dreams? Millions of people around the world in very different cultures have the same kinds of dreams.

Dreams are dreams, simply put. Studies have been done that claim anxiety causes the same kind of dreams, although most of them are not 100% the same. Similar is one thing, almost identical is quite another. In the cases of NDEs, many more of the details are consistent with others whom have had the same experience. This is in stark contrast to the "anxiety dreams" simply because of the number of people all independently verifying each other with no reason to make this up. And as I pointed out before, there are elements of the NDEs that are simply unexplained. Like deaf people hearing, blind people seeing, mutes talking, etc. In anxiety dreams, you do not hear of these elements which sets it apart and seems to indicate that the NDEs are legit.

Or for that matter, what about sleep paralysis? Millions describe seeing the same types of entities in the room with them during SP episodes - old hags, demons, aliens, shadow figures, etc.

Again, sleep paralysis is comparable to anxiety dreams. Both are basic human experiences that have been happening ever since science has established ways to study these things. While there are some similar type of experience points, there aren't parts of it that cannot be explained away, scientifically speaking. In my view, it's apples and oranges comparing sleep paralysis/anxiety dreams to NDEs. More comprehensive studies have been done on the NDE topic usually with more questions remaining than answers for some elements of the overall phenomena. In contrast, sleep paralysis and anxiety dreams have had many explanations and have pretty much been relegated to basic human reaction to different emotional expressions our bodies are prone to manifest. I have seen no real evidence to debunk the NDE phenomena and explain it in terms to dismiss the happenings contained therein. In my mind, that further lends credibility to the NDE subject than to any other comparable topic in the field. It is for each individual person to judge the merit of these claims based on common sense and evidence. To me, I've read and seen enough on this topic to make me believe it is indeed the real deal.

[Artaxerxes]

When skeptics talk about NDEs they talk about it from such a very shallow perspective. They know so little about it and have obviously read very little about it. There are things about NDE's that go way beyond the tunnel and the light and feelings of euphoria and/or love.

They ignore or leave out the parts about feeling like you are literally everywhere in the Universe at once, overwhelming feelings of oneness and connectedness, 360 degree vision, time and space not existing, seeing colors you've never seen before, buildings that are "made out of knowledge," communicating telepathically, having "all knowledge", and during the life review experiencing your entire life in an instant, information being downloaded instantly like a "bolus of knowledge", feeling like you are the person you interacted with, feeling what they felt, hearing their thoughts of the people during your life review. The life review is a holographic experience par excellence.

These are all very "holographic" and quantum physics like things. I think the more colors than normal is because they are seeing the entire light spectrum instead of just a small part of it. The all knowledge, like being connected, is because you are literally a part of everything in the Universe - which is very "holographic."

I find all these things to be extremely evidential. For a housewife or a truck driver to make comments that seem to parallel or are congruent with things that I've read in books about the holographic universe or the quantum world is amazing to me because I highly doubt they have read Michael Talbot's or Dr. Fred Alan Wolf's books.

Art

[Artaxerxes]

Mindsight is a book by Dr. Ken Ring about the Near Death Experiences of blind people. He personally talked to a number of blind people who for the first time in their lives were able to see and report veridical facts about what they'd seen and experienced. - Art

Mindsight: Near-Death and Out-of-Body Experiences in the Blind, Dr. Ken Ring

http://www.amazon.co...words=mindsight

Edited April 10, 2013 by Artaxerxes