Ramayana and Mahabharata

[Harsh86_Patel]

Bcause the word, when used in your context, means only "air," that's how.

Harte

"Udan" means "flight related" and "Vayu" means "air/.gas". So Udan Vayu stands for "air that lifts/causes flight".

Udan and Vayu are also common Hindi words and you can ask someone else who knows Hindi or Sanskrit if you don't believe me.

Similarly "Praan" means life and Pran Vayu means "air that gives life" or oxygen.

Hydrogen and Oxygen are by product of electrolysis of water and electrolysis of water would be easy to carry out even by a primitive battery setting.

Like i said that if we presume that these primitive people wouldn't have known what Hydrogen is and then interpret the text then obviously we would end up fumbling.

[The_Spartan]

Harsh is right.

The root of the word "ud" is rise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sanskrit_and_Persian_roots_in_Hindi#.E0.A4.89_.28u.29

http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?script=HK&beginning=0+&tinput=ud+&trans=Translate&direction=AU

The hindi word

उदजन (udjan) = hydrogen

[Harsh86_Patel]

But leaving Vimanas aside there is so much other cultural,geographical and historical data in these epics, a fair evaluation should be done for the same.

[Harte]

Harsh is right.

The root of the word "ud" is rise.

http://en.wikipedia....0.A4.89_.28u.29

http://spokensanskri...te&direction=AU

The hindi word

उदजन (udjan) = hydrogen

My apologies. I was referring to the other word, not Udan. As the quote I supplied indicated, udan has to to with moving upward. Vayu is the one that means air, and is the word I thought was being questioned. My fault for not reading thoroughly, but I was (and am) at work with 30 kids working on my problems as I type.

A phrase involving "upward moving air" certainly does not imply lighter-than-air vehicles, nor does it imply the early discovery of hydrogen.

On the other hand, this too would not surprise me. So, please provide (Harsh) some evidence that hydrogen was discovered in India during or before the time period of the Ramayana.

Harte

[jaylemurph]

But leaving Vimanas aside there is so much other cultural,geographical and historical data in these epics, a fair evaluation should be done for the same.

Doctor Who has very, very detailed cultural, geographic and historical data about London, too. You should help me research and evaluate to see if the Doctor is really real, too.

--JayleMimesis

[+DieChecker]

Doctor Who has very, very detailed cultural, geographic and historical data about London, too. You should help me research and evaluate to see if the Doctor is really real, too.

--JayleMimesis

He saved us from the Mayan doomsday so I don't know why you would question his existence?

Hee hee

[Harsh86_Patel]

My apologies. I was referring to the other word, not Udan. As the quote I supplied indicated, udan has to to with moving upward. Vayu is the one that means air, and is the word I thought was being questioned. My fault for not reading thoroughly, but I was (and am) at work with 30 kids working on my problems as I type.

A phrase involving "upward moving air" certainly does not imply lighter-than-air vehicles, nor does it imply the early discovery of hydrogen.

On the other hand, this too would not surprise me. So, please provide (Harsh) some evidence that hydrogen was discovered in India during or before the time period of the Ramayana.

Harte

Again i would like you to read the passage related to a primitive battery in the Agastya Samhita, where the by product of water electrolysis i.e- Hydrogen and Oxygen are called Udan Vayu and Pran Vayu. Only references to the same and Vimanas or flying ships can be given as proof,since Hydrogen from 3000 years back cannot be produced by me as evidence.Though electrolysis of water is easily possible with a primitive anode cathode method, and can be used as a source of Hydrogen production.

No need to apologise,you are dealing with a language you are not used to ,so mistakes happen.

The link you gave also talks of Udan Vayu but in the context of Yoga and the Human body.

P.S.- Hydrogen is still called 'Udan Vayu' in Hindi.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Harsh86_Patel

[Harsh86_Patel]

Doctor Who has very, very detailed cultural, geographic and historical data about London, too. You should help me research and evaluate to see if the Doctor is really real, too.

--JayleMimesis

Mahabharata and Ramayana are not products of modern crackpot fringe theorists, they are texts from ancient times and hence we should look to them to understand what migrations,cultural practices and history were at that point of time.

[Harsh86_Patel]

Harte this might be interesting for you:

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=mCV5YKU7TIcC&pg=PA41&lpg=PA41&dq=agastya+samhita+battery+description&source=bl&ots=i4u-HdqnlB&sig=a92pFMQSEnqjrECWFfKSz1EJ2YM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sMFjUcq7OIeurAf0-YDwCA&ved=0CFoQ6AEwBjgK#v=onepage&q=agastya%20samhita%20battery%20description&f=false

Check page 40,41,42

[The_Spartan]

Harsh, can you by any chance get some link to any site or document copy, at least a scan copy of the Agasthya samhita?

[Harte]

Again i would like you to read the passage related to a primitive battery in the Agastya Samhita, where the by product of water electrolysis i.e- Hydrogen and Oxygen are called Udan Vayu and Pran Vayu. Only references to the same and Vimanas or flying ships can be given as proof,since Hydrogen from 3000 years back cannot be produced by me as evidence.Though electrolysis of water is easily possible with a primitive anode cathode method, and can be used as a source of Hydrogen production.

No need to apologise,you are dealing with a language you are not used to ,so mistakes happen.

The link you gave also talks of Udan Vayu but in the context of Yoga and the Human body.

P.S.- Hydrogen is still called 'Udan Vayu' in Hindi.

Yeah, I guess you didn't get that I would like for me to read that too.

However, I don't read Sanskrit.

Harte

[Harte]

Harte this might be interesting for you:

http://books.google....ription&f=false

Check page 40,41,42

The fact that I stated that I wouldn't really be surprised by the dioscovery of hydrogen in ancient India and the earlier statement I made about how I wouldn't be too surprised if a galvanic cell had been invented in ancient India should have indicated to you that I'm aware of the achievements made by ancient India.

So, tell me something (verifiable) that I don't know.

Harte

[+DieChecker]

Mahabharata and Ramayana are not products of modern crackpot fringe theorists, they are texts from ancient times and hence we should look to them to understand what migrations,cultural practices and history were at that point of time.

That is right. It is some of those Interpreting the writings that are crackpot fringe theorists....

[Harsh86_Patel]

Harsh, can you by any chance get some link to any site or document copy, at least a scan copy of the Agasthya samhita?

http://archive.org/stream/AgastyaSamhita/agastya_samhita#page/n0/mode/2up

Am trying to source a English translation as well,which is reasonably accurate. Am not getting enough time from work.

[Harsh86_Patel]

That is right. It is some of those Interpreting the writings that are crackpot fringe theorists....

Not really,the interpretation that are reasonably accurate are being done by Indian Sanskrit scholars. The fringe theorists are using the translations to promote their theories.

[Harsh86_Patel]

The fact that I stated that I wouldn't really be surprised by the dioscovery of hydrogen in ancient India and the earlier statement I made about how I wouldn't be too surprised if a galvanic cell had been invented in ancient India should have indicated to you that I'm aware of the achievements made by ancient India.

So, tell me something (verifiable) that I don't know.

Harte

What do you mean by 'verifiable' ?? Mainstream opinion asserting the same?

[Harsh86_Patel]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janapada

Janapadas can be loosely translated as tribes/kingdoms.

Ancient Sanskrit texts like Ashtadhyayi (IV.4.168-175), Ramayana (IV/41-43), Mahabharata (VII/11/16-17; VIII/8/18-20)) and numerous Puranas (Bhuvanakosa list of countries) refer to many Janapadas of ancient times.

Pāṇini's Ashtadhyayi furnishes a list of fifteen Kshatriya monarchical Janapadas, viz., Salveya, Gandhari, Magadha, Kalinga, Surasena, Kosala, Ajada, Kuru, Salva, Pratyagratha, Kalakuta, Ashmaka, Kamboja,Avanti and Kunti. Besides, there were those following the republican constitutions.

In context of Krsna digvijay, the Mahabharata furnishes a key list of twenty-five ancient Janapadas, viz., Anga, Vanga, Kalinga, Magadha, Kasi, Kosala, Vatsa, Garga, Karusha, Pundra, Avanti, Dakshinatya, Parvartaka, Dasherka, Kashmira, Ursa, Pishacha, Mudgala, Kamboja, Vatadhana, Chola, Pandya, Trigarta, Malava, and Darada (MBH 7/11/15-17). Besides, there were the Janapadas of Kurus and Panchalasalso.

Ramayana (an earlier list) includes Janapadas of Andhras, Pundras, Cholas, Pandyas, Keralas, Mekhalas, Utkalas, Dasharnas, Abravantis, Avantis, Vidarbhas, Mlecchas, Pulindas, Surasenas, Prasthalas, Bharatas, Kurus, Madrakas, Kambojas, Daradas, Kiratas, Tangana, Yavanas, Sakas (from Saka-dvipa) Chinas, Maha-Chinas, Niharas etc.

The Bhuvanakosa Section of numerous Puranas divides the ancient Indian subcontinent into (1) the Dakshinapatha (Southern India), (2) the Madhyadesa (Mid India), (3) the Prachya (Eastern India), (4) theAparanta (Western India), (5) the Udichya or north/north-west division, (6) the Vindyavasins, and (7) the Parvatashrayins, and in the detailed list of countries, it refers to many Janapadas of ancient times (See:Kirfel's list of the countries of Bhuvanakosha)

By about the sixth century BCE, many of these Janapadas further evolved into larger political entities by the process of merger and land grabbing which eventually led to the formation of bigger kingdoms known in Buddhist texts as the Mahajanapadas or the great nations (a karmadharaya of maha "great" and janapada "country").

[Harte]

What do you mean by 'verifiable' ?? Mainstream opinion asserting the same?

Verifiable in this context refers to something that I can verify myself.

Since I can't read Sanskrit, your Vedic text falls outside this context.

Harte

[The_Spartan]

http://archive.org/s...age/n0/mode/2up

Am trying to source a English translation as well,which is reasonably accurate. Am not getting enough time from work.

Thats not in Sanskrit or Hindi. Its Bengali.

and i cant read bengali either, though i did study for my engineering in west bengal.

[The_Spartan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janapada

Janapadas can be loosely translated as tribes/kingdoms.

Ancient Sanskrit texts like Ashtadhyayi (IV.4.168-175), Ramayana (IV/41-43), Mahabharata (VII/11/16-17; VIII/8/18-20)) and numerous Puranas (Bhuvanakosa list of countries) refer to many Janapadas of ancient times.

Pāṇini's Ashtadhyayi furnishes a list of fifteen Kshatriya monarchical Janapadas, viz., Salveya, Gandhari, Magadha, Kalinga, Surasena, Kosala, Ajada, Kuru, Salva, Pratyagratha, Kalakuta, Ashmaka, Kamboja,Avanti and Kunti. Besides, there were those following the republican constitutions.

In context of Krsna digvijay, the Mahabharata furnishes a key list of twenty-five ancient Janapadas, viz., Anga, Vanga, Kalinga, Magadha, Kasi, Kosala, Vatsa, Garga, Karusha, Pundra, Avanti, Dakshinatya, Parvartaka, Dasherka, Kashmira, Ursa, Pishacha, Mudgala, Kamboja, Vatadhana, Chola, Pandya, Trigarta, Malava, and Darada (MBH 7/11/15-17). Besides, there were the Janapadas of Kurus and Panchalasalso.

Ramayana (an earlier list) includes Janapadas of Andhras, Pundras, Cholas, Pandyas, Keralas, Mekhalas, Utkalas, Dasharnas, Abravantis, Avantis, Vidarbhas, Mlecchas, Pulindas, Surasenas, Prasthalas, Bharatas, Kurus, Madrakas, Kambojas, Daradas, Kiratas, Tangana, Yavanas, Sakas (from Saka-dvipa) Chinas, Maha-Chinas, Niharas etc.

The Bhuvanakosa Section of numerous Puranas divides the ancient Indian subcontinent into (1) the Dakshinapatha (Southern India), (2) the Madhyadesa (Mid India), (3) the Prachya (Eastern India), (4) theAparanta (Western India), (5) the Udichya or north/north-west division, (6) the Vindyavasins, and (7) the Parvatashrayins, and in the detailed list of countries, it refers to many Janapadas of ancient times (See:Kirfel's list of the countries of Bhuvanakosha)

By about the sixth century BCE, many of these Janapadas further evolved into larger political entities by the process of merger and land grabbing which eventually led to the formation of bigger kingdoms known in Buddhist texts as the Mahajanapadas or the great nations (a karmadharaya of maha "great" and janapada "country").

How is this relevant to this topic?

I think you posted the same , in here and the post by Abe about the Gonur Tepe in Turkemenistan.

be careful during copy-paste, bro!!

lol.

[+DieChecker]

Not really,the interpretation that are reasonably accurate are being done by Indian Sanskrit scholars. The fringe theorists are using the translations to promote their theories.

I know, but it is the translating of the translating which is the Fringe feeding ground. If the Sanskrit scholars write that there was a flash as bright as the sun and a black cloud and a thunderous boom... the Fringies all point and say NUKE!! And then proceed to rewrite the Epic using nuclear weapon instead of iron spear, and nuclear flash instead of Bright as the sun, and so on.... And then they will claim it is all just as the scholars translated it...

[Harsh86_Patel]

Verifiable in this context refers to something that I can verify myself.

Since I can't read Sanskrit, your Vedic text falls outside this context.

Harte

Then there is no way for you to verify it, hopefully you know Egyptian Heiroglyphs and Ancient Greek otherwise you wont be able to verify a lot of History.

[Harsh86_Patel]

I know, but it is the translating of the translating which is the Fringe feeding ground. If the Sanskrit scholars write that there was a flash as bright as the sun and a black cloud and a thunderous boom... the Fringies all point and say NUKE!! And then proceed to rewrite the Epic using nuclear weapon instead of iron spear, and nuclear flash instead of Bright as the sun, and so on.... And then they will claim it is all just as the scholars translated it...

Maybe it was a Nuke or some other kind of weapon, The frame of referrence is the fight once again,many of these ancient descriptions bear a eerie similarity to modern technology and that is the breeding ground of most fringe theories. The mainstream approach to these uncanny similarities is to deny them and dismiss them outright,which might not be a good approach. Like i said in another topic started by me that if modern HSS was around since last 200,000 years it is very probable that they did develop advance technology in the past.

[Jon101]

Is this load of old rubbish still going?as pointed out before the Op is ridiculously biased.

As a good friend of mine put it:

'I will confess a mental door slams shut when I see someone write about knowledge that has been hidden forever. Well, no, folks, it's not been hidden from everybody but you. The old is not new because you are blissfully unaware that your stupid idea has been laughed at for centuries. Digging up a stupid idea that's been discredited by generations of anyone who thinks past the level of seventh grade general science does not make you the shining new star of human thought.'

A small amount of intelligence coupled with some grade school science would put all of Mr.Patels indocentric crap to bed, and before slavish partisans pipe up to accuse me of trolling despite having frequented this site for years, trolling is a far better description of the tripe being posted here with regards to badly written indian literature.

The Mahabharata is not even good mythological claptrap, with its derivative nonsense and flying machines, (a valid interpretation of the pushpaka verse, imho.) , (although 'Kunti' is always good for a childish laugh), but the Indians cannot be reasoned with on the subject insisting it must occupy a shakespearean place in the literary pantheon despite its obvious inherent odiousness and childish racism.

[+DieChecker]

As a good friend of mine put it:

'I will confess a mental door slams shut when I see someone write about knowledge that has been hidden forever. Well, no, folks, it's not been hidden from everybody but you. The old is not new because you are blissfully unaware that your stupid idea has been laughed at for centuries. Digging up a stupid idea that's been discredited by generations of anyone who thinks past the level of seventh grade general science does not make you the shining new star of human thought.'

I agree with that quote....

The Mahabharata is not even good mythological claptrap, with its derivative nonsense and flying machines, (a valid interpretation of the pushpaka verse, imho.) , (although 'Kunti' is always good for a childish laugh), but the Indians cannot be reasoned with on the subject insisting it must occupy a shakespearean place in the literary pantheon despite its obvious inherent odiousness and childish racism.

You would think with all the evidenced amazing history that India has, with great civilizations, fantastic achievements, incredible structures and interesting peoples, that they would not need their own kind of Atlantis story to give their Pre-history a fantastic element to it. You would think the story built from the evidence would be amazing enough.