The Incas, explorers of the Pacific

[PersonFromPorlock]

just a thought... chickens were a part of nearly every homesite around here for a a very long time but i've never seen a chicken in "the forest" I'm sure it happens, but, being domesticated they probably have lost some survival skills?

It may be that from a chicken's point of view, domesticated life is too good to leave: food, water, shelter, and no predators except for the big one you missed until it was too late. And if the farm gets attacked and destroyed, the chickens either get taken or wander around the ruins until something eats them.

[lightly]

It may be that from a chicken's point of view, domesticated life is too good to leave: food, water, shelter, and no predators except for the big one you missed until it was too late. And if the farm gets attacked and destroyed, the chickens either get taken or wander around the ruins until something eats them.

Ya, that makes sense, from both my and the chicken's point of view.

[Abramelin]

It may be that from a chicken's point of view, domesticated life is too good to leave: food, water, shelter, and no predators except for the big one you missed until it was too late. And if the farm gets attacked and destroyed, the chickens either get taken or wander around the ruins until something eats them.

Feral chickens are derived from domestic chickens (Gallus gallus domesticus) that have returned to the wild. Like the Red Junglefowl (the closest wild relative of domestic chickens), feral chickens will take flight and roost in tall trees and bushes in order to avoid predators at night.

Feral chickens, like the wild Red Junglefowl, typically form social groups composed of a dominant cockerel, several hens and subordinate cocks.

Locations famous for feral chickens

* Bermuda

* Fair Oaks, California

* Galston Gorge, Australia

* Key West, Florida

* Kauai, Hawaii

* Los Angeles, California

* San Juan Bautista, California

* Houston, Texas

* Chicken Roundabout (A143) Bungay, Suffolk, UK [2]

* Port Chalmers, New Zealand

* Totton, UK

* St. Thomas, U.S. Virgin Islands

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_chicken

[lightly]

ah.. i understand now. I notice all of those places are warm, or at least survivable in the case of the UK. It gets too cold here for a chicken of independent mind to survive the winter.

*

Edited January 22, 2013 by lightly

[PersonFromPorlock]

There is something extraordinarily sinister about the term "feral chicken."

[Harte]

Doesn't matter. They all fear me worse than Col. Sanders.

You should see my frying pans.

Harte

[Big Bad Voodoo]

New article

The origin of the sweet potato in Polynesia has long been a mystery, since the crop was first domesticated in the Andes of South America about 8,000 years ago, and it couldn't have spread to other parts of the world until contact was made. In other words, if Europeans were indeed the first to make contact with the Americas between 500 and 1,000 years ago, then the sweet potato shouldn't be found anywhere else in the world until then.

The extensive DNA study looked at genetic samples taken from modern sweet potatoes from around the world and historical specimens kept in herbarium collections. Remarkably, the herbarium specimens included plants collected during Capt. James Cook’s 1769 visits to New Zealand and the Society Islands. The findings confirmed that sweet potatoes in Polynesia were part of a distinct lineage that were already present in the area when European voyagers introduced different lines elsewhere. In other words, sweet potatoes made it out of America before European contact.

http://www.mnn.com/e...ica-long-before

Researchers believe that Polynesian seafarers must have discovered the Americas first, long before Europeans did. The new DNA evidence, taken together with archaeological and linguistic evidence regarding the timeline of Polynesian expansion, suggests that an original contact date between 500 CE and 700 CE between Polynesia and America seems likely. That means that Polynesians would have arrived in South America even before the Norse had landed in Newfoundland.

It seems they ignore your idea Abe.

Edited January 26, 2013 by the L

[Abramelin]

New article

The origin of the sweet potato in Polynesia has long been a mystery, since the crop was first domesticated in the Andes of South America about 8,000 years ago, and it couldn't have spread to other parts of the world until contact was made. In other words, if Europeans were indeed the first to make contact with the Americas between 500 and 1,000 years ago, then the sweet potato shouldn't be found anywhere else in the world until then.

The extensive DNA study looked at genetic samples taken from modern sweet potatoes from around the world and historical specimens kept in herbarium collections. Remarkably, the herbarium specimens included plants collected during Capt. James Cook’s 1769 visits to New Zealand and the Society Islands. The findings confirmed that sweet potatoes in Polynesia were part of a distinct lineage that were already present in the area when European voyagers introduced different lines elsewhere. In other words, sweet potatoes made it out of America before European contact.

http://www.mnn.com/e...ica-long-before

Researchers believe that Polynesian seafarers must have discovered the Americas first, long before Europeans did. The new DNA evidence, taken together with archaeological and linguistic evidence regarding the timeline of Polynesian expansion, suggests that an original contact date between 500 CE and 700 CE between Polynesia and America seems likely. That means that Polynesians would have arrived in South America even before the Norse had landed in Newfoundland.

It seems they ignore your idea Abe.

Well, my idea was something of a mutual 'pollination': the Polynesians influencing South Americans, and visa versa.

The Polynesians may have discovered South America ages before the Europeans did, but did they also introduce the typical megalithic style of building, like in Sacsayhuaman?

If you look at page one of this thread and the photo I posted of that wall on Easter Island, what should we think?

[Abramelin]

Who Are The Mysterious Bearded Indians? Part 1.

A Strange Tribe, With Strange Customs and Strange Physical Characteristics, Is Being Investigated in South America. Are They Truly Indians or Are They Descendants of Some Other People?

By A. HYATT VERRILL Museum of the American Indian, Heye Foundation

SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN magazine, June 1928.

Researched by Alan Schenker; digitized by Doug Frizzle February 2012.

http://stillwoods.bl...ed-indians.html

ELSEWHERE in this issue (page 503) the ethnographer, A. Hyatt Verrill, has described a little-known but apparently anomalous tribe of savages who inhabit an inaccessible area in Bolivia. According to his hypothesis these people are not American Indians but some of the island stocks from the distant archipelagos of the Pacific, transplanted to South America. Admittedly, a close scrutiny of the photograph reproduced above lends some support to this suspicion. How these or similar island peoples may have reached South America from across the broad Pacific has perhaps been best explained by the anthropologist, Professor G. Elliot Smith, who believes they came in large canoes. Although this "diffusionist" belief is opposed by the majority of anthropologists, it is nevertheless in good scientific standing and may yet become the accepted doctrine.

=

MY most recent expedition to Peru and Bolivia was not, as has been stated in the daily press, in search of the bearded Indians, but was primarily archeological, although large ethnological collections and valuable ethnological data were secured among the living Indians of the interior.

The bearded Indians were merely a side issue. Moreover, I lay no claim to having "discovered" them, and neither are they a "new" race. In fact they have been known, or rather rumored, to exist for fully 200 years; but I believe I am the first to secure ethnological specimens and notes of the tribe and to bring them to the attention of science.

SCIENTIFICALLY, the bearded Indians are of the greatest interest, being in many ways unique, and may prove to be the key that will unlock the mystery of the origin of man in South America. Even to the casual observer they are strikingly un-Indian in appearance and have a far greater resemblance to inhabitants of the South Sea Islands than to any aborigines of America.

I have long held to the opinion that the Indians of western South America were of Oceanian and not Asiatic origin, and I am convinced that a further study of the bearded Indians will go far towards proving this opinion. The mere fact that the men are bearded is by no means the most important peculiarity of the tribe, although to the public it might seem so. Many, in fact nearly all, Indians possess beards, but as a rule these are shaved off or plucked out; and when allowed to grow, the beard is thin, scant, stiff and wiry.

The beards of the bearded Indians, however, are heavy, luxuriant, bushy, fine, soft, and slightly wavy; as is the hair on the heads. Neither are their features, their bodies nor the shapes of the heads Indian, although a comparison of their cranial measurements with those of Oceanian tribes will be necessary before direct relationships can be established or disproved.

In height they are well above the average forest Indians of South America, and in color they are darker and more of a brown than an ochre or red.

=

The dialect of these bearded Indians is wholly unlike any of those of the neighboring tribes. It is low and guttural but not inharmonious, and is spoken in a sing-song monotone.

The vocabulary obtained shows many striking resemblances to dialects of the Pacific archipelagos, some of the words being almost identical and having precisely the same meanings. This is not, however, confined to this tribe, for words in many of the Indian languages of western South America, even the Quichua and Aimara, in fact, show similar resemblances; all of which tends to sustain the theory that these people are all descendants of migrants from Oceania, although doubtless more or less mixed with the races of Asiatic origin farther north.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Abramelin

[lightly]

Interesting stuff Abramelin, almost identical words with same meaning shared by Eastern 'Polynesians' and South Americans. (Some might argue recent contact for that?)

I've been trying to find out , without much success, about ancient and traditional S.E. Asian and Western Pacific watercraft .. and.. Eastern Pacific watercraft.

[Abramelin]

Interesting stuff Abramelin, almost identical words with same meaning shared by Eastern 'Polynesians' and South Americans. (Some might argue recent contact for that?)

I've been trying to find out , without much success, about ancient and traditional S.E. Asian and Western Pacific watercraft .. and.. Eastern Pacific watercraft.

I don't think it's recent contact: from the looks of it this tribe lived in east Bolivia, so they must have first crossed the Andes after they arrived at the west coast of South America,

[The_Spartan]

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRr.

Indians come from India.

All others will be served copyright notices!!!

[PersonFromPorlock]

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRr.

Indians come from India.

All others will be served copyright notices!!!

I like "Amerindian" or "Amerind" for most American natives. I'm not sure that fits the 'Polynesian' Indians, though.

[Abramelin]

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRr.

Indians come from India.

All others will be served copyright notices!!!

I will bet you know that some of your countrymen claimed that their ancestors (and so your ancestors) discovered the Americas, thousands of years after the Siberian Asians did, and long before any Europeans did.

So, in a way, calling Native Americans "Indians" is not that wrong.

IF (-BIG if-) your countrymen will be proven to be right, that is.

.

Edited February 9, 2013 by Abramelin

[SHaYap]

I blame our collective nomadic ancestors ... they just can't sit still .... what was it that Bill Bryson puts it ? " The Restless Ape " ?

Maybe "Restless Hominid" would've been better apt, there are more than many Restless Apes now still but haven't rambled further than the next fruiting tree within reach

[Abramelin]

DNA study links indigenous Brazilians to Polynesians

Indigenous people that lived in southeastern Brazil in the late 1800s shared some genetic sequences with Polynesians, an analysis of their remains shows. The finding offers some support for the possibility that Pacific islanders traded with South America thousands of years ago, but researchers say that the distinctive DNA sequences, or haplogroups, may have entered the genomes of the native Brazilians through the slave trade during the nineteenth century.

Most scientists agree that humans arrived in the Americas between 15,000 and 20,000 years ago, probably via the Bering land bridge linking northeastern Asia with what is now Alaska. But the precise timing and the number of ‘migration waves’ is unclear, owing largely to variations in early Americans’ physical features, says Sérgio Pena, a molecular geneticist at the Federal University of Minas Gerais in Belo Horizonte, Brazil.

One broad group of these Palaeoamericans — the Botocudo people, who lived in inland regions of southeastern Brazil — stands out, having skull shapes that were intermediate between those of other Palaeoamericans and a presumed ancestral population in eastern Asia.

Now, a genetic analysis sheds light on the possible heritage of the Botocudo. Pena and his colleagues studied short stretches of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) in samples drilled from teeth in 14 Botocudo skulls kept in a museum collection in Rio de Janeiro. By analysing material from inside the teeth, the team minimized the possibility of contamination with DNA from the numerous people who have probably handled the skulls since they arrived at the museum in the late 1800s.

More here:

http://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.nl/2013/04/dna-study-links-indigenous-brazilians.html#.UWKeLEq67TM

[Harte]

I like "Amerindian" or "Amerind" for most American natives. I'm not sure that fits the 'Polynesian' Indians, though.

Well, that's better than what some folks called them back in my home state of Oklahoma.

Harte

[PersonFromPorlock]

Deleted - premature post.

Edited April 8, 2013 by PersonFromPorlock

[PersonFromPorlock]

Well, that's better than what some folks called them back in my home state of Oklahoma.

Harte

It's really an old anthropological term. Quite respectable, and short.

Incidentally, why do people fixate on the Bering Land Bridge as the route to North America? Even today, it's less than thirty miles from Siberia to the Diomedes and from the Diomedes to Alaska: would kayaking Siberians of, say, 30KYA have failed to make that trip, or to exploit an entire, empty continent?

Edited April 8, 2013 by PersonFromPorlock

[Harte]

It's really an old anthropological term. Quite respectable, and short.

Incidentally, why do people fixate on the Bering Land Bridge as the route to North America? Even today, it's less than thirty miles from Siberia to the Diomedes and from the Diomedes to Alaska: would kayaking Siberians of, say, 30KYA have failed to make that trip, or to exploit an entire, empty continent?

In fact, the people that concentrate on the land bridge alone these days tend to primarily dwell in chatrooms and internet forums.

(That'd be us, I guess; though myself, and present company, are obviously outriders in this group!)

A pretty good while back (decades, I believe,), evidence was discovered that what you here mention is basically what took place.

Harte

[Abramelin]

Towards the origin of America’s first settlers

(...)

The paper also identifies lineage which has not been described to date in North and Central American populations: C-M217 (C3*) haplotype, which occur at high frequency in Asia. Moreover, experts detected a Polynesian lineage in Peru.

http://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.nl/2013/04/towards-origin-of-americas-first.html#.UXg7EUq674Y

[Harsh86_Patel]

Here a talk about the "long ears" and the "short ears" on Easter Island:

http://answers.yahoo...23055648AAkjZ2l

Now I know some people think of 'Caucasians' when they read 'light skin' or 'red hair'.

But I know from experience that people who have a dark skin by nature will call anyone slightly lighter of skin 'white skinned'.

And the 'red hair' doesn't have to be a mystery: people all over the world decorate themselves, tattooed themselves, elongated skulls, pierced their ear lobes, circumcision, knocking out the 4 upper incisors, filed their teeth sharp as those of a piraña, elongated their neck with rings, and so on.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the Incas - that is, the rulers of the Quechua people - bleached their naturally black hair to make it look red, because that is the effect bleach has on black hair: it turns red.

.

Maybe it was the other way round the i.e the polynesians who are very similar to south east asians genetically could have colonised South America in the ancient past, the south american ancients were often potryaed with features like almond eyes, flat noses very similar to the south east asian peoples.

The explorer that you talk about could have gone to Africa where he found the black people, and it would be a more logical choice to go in a direction that you are not aware of to explore i.e they might have been in contact previously with South East asians and polynesians, and they could have known of their decendence from them.

[Harsh86_Patel]

An interesting comparison from the Veda and Mahabharata:

The Mayas were Nagas

There is definitely an important connection between the old Vedic people and Maya-ancestors. The Mayas are actually referred to in the Mahabharata, one of the main Hindu scriptures, as a tribe having left the Indian subcontinent. There are sources who have revealed those people to be the same as the Nagas, one of the oldest Indian tribes recorded. Those Nagas seem to have been a people, later called Danavas, with a capital Nagapur. They are referred to in another main Hindu-scripture, the Ramayana, as belonging to a Naga-Maya tribe, who is said to have transmitted their culture towards Babylonia, Egypt and Greece (source: Una Vision del Mundo, Prof. G. Zapata Alonzo, Merida, Mexico, 1994, p.71)

These findings point again to Bharat (India's subcontinent) as the cradle-land and pioneering force in the establishment of earth's main civilisations.

There are actually a lot of very interesting correlations:

• There are a lot of similarities between the native Maya language and counting system and the parallel Naga systems. There are similar correlations between other Asian languages as f.i. Japanese (!) and Maya. And some old sanskrit texts were found in Yucatan, Mexico.
  
• There are a lot of parallel symbols used in both Indian and Maya-culture: the snake (actually referring to the Khi, life energy), Ganesh (the elephant god), the swastika (symbol of cyclic time), solar cosmoglives, ideograms etc... The word Maya in Hindu philosophy refers to the word of illusion, but also to the origin of the world; the sanskrit term is related to great, magic, mother.
  
• Going to the Greek-Egyptian civilisations: have you ever compared the arch of the Agamemnon tomb or palace and the ones you can find inUxmal?
  
• The cyclic time approaches omnipresent in both cultures. The understanding of the 'kalpas' had both a scientific but first and foremost a spiritual inspiration. Arguelles refers to it as follows "The common root and interest in chronocosmology of Vedic and Maya is also seen in the cultivation of yoga (Sanskrit: divine union) and yok-hah (Maya: higher truth).
  

[Harsh86_Patel]

The nagas were people who worshipped a snake deity as supreme, they were named due this deity (i.e Nagas means "snakes" in Sanskrit).

They were a very old people who migrated out from the Indian subcontinent.

They were later compared to Danavas/ Rakshasha.

I have mentioned this before,

The mayans followed Venus to caliberate their calender, and so did the rakshashas, whose guru was Shukracharya (i.e Venus). While the devas followed Brihaspati or Jupiter, the current hindu calender the day of Jupiter i.e thursday is considered auspicious.

Sir William Jones (1746-1794) judge of the Supreme Court at Calcutta and was one who pioneered Sanskrit studies. His admiration for Indian thought and culture was almost limitless. He has remarked:

"Rama is represented as a descendant from the sun, as the husband of Sita, and the son of a princess named Causelya. It is very remarkable that Peruvians, whose Incas boasted of the same descent, styled their greatest festival Rama-Sitva; whence we may take it that South America was peopled by the same race who imported into the farthest of parts of Asia the rites and the fabulous history of Rama."

(source: Asiatic Researches Volume I. p. 426)

Modern day peruvians dressed as Incans decendants of the Sun....even Rama was the descendant of the Sun.The festical is celeberated in the Winter solistice.

The Hindu holiday Diwali, meaning Rows of Lighted Lamps, is celebrated like Christmas with decorating of homes, eating of sweets, etc., and is the most important festival in India. Different regions attach different legends to it, telling about deities winning victory over demons, symbolizing the victory of good over evil.

Diwali is still celeberated on the winter solisice every year in India to commerate the return of Rama (the descendant of the Sun) back to his kingdom in Ayoddhya.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Harsh86_Patel

[Abramelin]

The nagas were people who worshipped a snake deity as supreme, they were named due this deity (i.e Nagas means "snakes" in Sanskrit).

They were a very old people who migrated out from the Indian subcontinent.

They were later compared to Danavas/ Rakshasha.

I have mentioned this before,

The mayans followed Venus to caliberate their calender, and so did the rakshashas, whose guru was Shukracharya (i.e Venus). While the devas followed Brihaspati or Jupiter, the current hindu calender the day of Jupiter i.e thursday is considered auspicious.

Sir William Jones (1746-1794) judge of the Supreme Court at Calcutta and was one who pioneered Sanskrit studies. His admiration for Indian thought and culture was almost limitless. He has remarked:

"Rama is represented as a descendant from the sun, as the husband of Sita, and the son of a princess named Causelya. It is very remarkable that Peruvians, whose Incas boasted of the same descent, styled their greatest festival Rama-Sitva; whence we may take it that South America was peopled by the same race who imported into the farthest of parts of Asia the rites and the fabulous history of Rama."

(source: Asiatic Researches Volume I. p. 426)

Modern day peruvians dressed as Incans decendants of the Sun....even Rama was the descendant of the Sun.The festical is celeberated in the Winter solistice.

The Hindu holiday Diwali, meaning Rows of Lighted Lamps, is celebrated like Christmas with decorating of homes, eating of sweets, etc., and is the most important festival in India. Different regions attach different legends to it, telling about deities winning victory over demons, symbolizing the victory of good over evil.

Diwali is still celeberated on the winter solisice every year in India to commerate the return of Rama (the descendant of the Sun) back to his kingdom in Ayoddhya.

I think Sir William Jones saw what he wanted to see.

Their greatest festival was called Inti Raymi, or Festival of the Sun

The name Inti Raymi comes from the Quechua language: inti means “sun” and raymi means “festival.”

http://www.classzone.com/books/en_espanol_shared/ML1/ML_1_Inti_Raymi/ml_1_inti_raymi.html