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9/11 another way...


Spinebreaker

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I don't know if that's true or not , but it seems to be true that the Pentagon ordered five key witnesses not to testify. That's odd , I don't know why or what reason they had to order them not to talk.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Able_Danger

Why would that be an issue?

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Why would that be an issue?

It wouldnt be for you. How is you soul holding up?

Edited by Professor Buzzkill
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Well that it all depends now on a persons view point and who you believe. Just because you call the hijackers terrorists doesn't mean the terrorist wasn't the CIA. (Who have been proven to do terrorist acts) The US government is the biggest terrorist in the world right now.

I wouldn't say that. After all, it took the United States to step in to stop the slaughter in the Balkans while the rest of the world sat back and did nothing.

Take into account as well that Al Qaeda was formed off the back of the group Osama Bin Laden was part that the CIA trained and armed against Russia.

False! The CIA supported only the Afghan Mujahideen, not the Afghan Arabs, which was a group of foreigners that Osama bin Laden belonged.

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It wouldnt be for you. How is you soul holding up?

I will ask the question once again! Why is that an issue?

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How many hundreds of innocent people were killed or injured by al-Qaeda during the bombings in Kenya and in Tanzania alone? Not what I would call , "Freedom fighters."

I didn't choose their name Skyeagle. That's what the group were called at the end of Rambo III, later they changed it to Mujahidin. (later cuts of the film that is.)

Edited by Spinebreaker
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I didn't choose their name Skyeagle. That's what the group were called at the end of Rambo III, later they changed it to Mujahidin. (later cuts of the film that is.)

The Afghan Mujahideen and the Afghan Arabs were two different groups. Conspiracist seem to think there were one of the same, which they were not.

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It's only terrorism if you happen to not be Caucasian... The US participate in "campaigns of shock and awe".

I think Al Qaeda are basically the Afghan Freedom Fighters (It''s a little more complex than that, but still) Always made that dedication in the credits for Rambo 2 or 3 all the more hilarious.

The thing is, both sides of the Al Qaeda did/did not do it have sources to back them up. Some good, some awful. So right off the bat, we have massive trouble establishing a single fact..

Completely agree with all of that, also I watched that Rambo a few Months back and laughed at how nice they made them out to be in the film.

I wouldn't say that. After all, it took the United States to step in to stop the slaughter in the Balkans while the rest of the world sat back and did nothing.

That does not mean it is OK to terrorize other countries...

False! The CIA supported only the Afghan Mujahideen, not the Afghan Arabs, which was a group of foreigners that Osama bin Laden belonged.

Haha, really again. Read this sentence please about Bin Laden on Wikipedia:

He was born in the bin Laden family to billionaire Mohammed bin Awad bin Laden in Saudi Arabia. He studied there in college until 1979, when he joined the mujahideen forces in Pakistan against the Soviets in Afghanistan.

when he joined the mujahideen forces

when he joined the mujahideen forces

when he joined the mujahideen forces

when he joined the mujahideen forces

when he joined the mujahideen forces

This might make you take note this time.

The Afghan Mujahideen and the Afghan Arabs were two different groups. Conspiracist seem to think there were one of the same, which they were not.

Wikipedia is not a conspiricist... Neither is Hillery Clinton or Obama..... lol

Edited by Coffey
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That does not mean it is OK to terrorize other countries..

Well, al-Qaeda was behind the bombings that deliberately targeted and killed hundreds of innocent people in foreign countries.

Haha, really again. Read this sentence please about Bin Laden on Wikipedia:

when he joined the mujahideen forces

Read your history book and note the differences between the Afghan Mujahideen and the Afghan Arabs.

Afghan Arabs

Afghan Arabs (also known as Arab-Afghans) were Arab and other Muslim Islamist mujahideen who came to Afghanistan during and following the Soviet-Afghan War to help fellow Muslims fight Soviets and pro-Soviet Afghans. Observers and journalists covering the war have cast doubt on their significance as a fighting force, but within the Muslim Arab world they achieved near hero-status for their association with the defeat of the militant atheist, anti-religious Communist superpower that was the Soviet Union.

http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dtic.mil%2Fcgi-bin%2FGetTRDoc%3FAD%3DADA493790%26Location%3DU2%26doc%3DGetTRDoc.pdf&date=2010-02-03

Osama bin Laden used the thousands of fighters he recruited in 1988 to fight against the Soviet troops in Afghanistan. After the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan bin Laden expanded his "jihad" or holy war. The goals of al-Qaida's jihad are to establish the rule of God on Earth, to cleanse Islam of depravity and to become martyrs to the cause. In 1998 al Qaida issued a statement claiming it was the duty of all Muslims to kill U.S. citizens including civilians.

Afghan Mujahideen

The Islamic Unity of Afghanistan Mujahideen (also known as the Seven Party Mujahideen Alliance or Peshawar Seven) was an Afghan organization formed in May 1985 by the seven Afghanmujahideen parties fighting against the Soviet and Democratic Republic of Afghanistan forces in the Soviet-Afghan War. The alliance sought to function as a united diplomatic front towards the world opinion, and sought representation in the United Nations and Organisation of the Islamic Conference

http://www.airpower.au.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1986/mar-apr/collins.html

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Well, al-Qaeda was behind the bombings that deliberately targeted and killed hundreds of innocent people in foreign countries.

Read your history book and note the differences between the Afghan Mujahideen and the Afghan Arabs.

Afghan Arabs

Afghan Arabs (also known as Arab-Afghans) were Arab and other Muslim Islamist mujahideen who came to Afghanistan during and following the Soviet-Afghan War to help fellow Muslims fight Soviets and pro-Soviet Afghans. Observers and journalists covering the war have cast doubt on their significance as a fighting force, but within the Muslim Arab world they achieved near hero-status for their association with the defeat of the militant atheist, anti-religious Communist superpower that was the Soviet Union.

http://www.webcitati...date=2010-02-03

Osama bin Laden used the thousands of fighters he recruited in 1988 to fight against the Soviet troops in Afghanistan. After the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan bin Laden expanded his "jihad" or holy war. The goals of al-Qaida's jihad are to establish the rule of God on Earth, to cleanse Islam of depravity and to become martyrs to the cause. In 1998 al Qaida issued a statement claiming it was the duty of all Muslims to kill U.S. citizens including civilians.

Afghan Mujahideen

The Islamic Unity of Afghanistan Mujahideen (also known as the Seven Party Mujahideen Alliance or Peshawar Seven) was an Afghan organization formed in May 1985 by the seven Afghanmujahideen parties fighting against the Soviet and Democratic Republic of Afghanistan forces in the Soviet-Afghan War. The alliance sought to function as a united diplomatic front towards the world opinion, and sought representation in the United Nations and Organisation of the Islamic Conference

http://www.airpower....pr/collins.html

And you really think that they fought together and went their separate ways? lol

So you use the writing of USAF lieutenant colonel... Obviously no agenda there......

Then some anti Muslim/Terrorist site. Brilliant.

Well, al-Qaeda was behind the bombings that deliberately targeted and killed hundreds of innocent people in foreign countries.

US does that all the time... Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Libya. Thousands of dead innocent woman and Children.

There is a huge problem with history books. Some are wrong, because they where written when all the evidence or information was not known. This has been proven thousands of times. Taking Scientific books like history specific ones as gospel is verging on religion.

Edited by Coffey
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And you really think that they fought together and went their separate ways?

They were two different groups. and the Afghan Arabs were not supported by the CIA. Simply historical fact s. Did you really think the CIA would support a group that openly declared war on the United States?

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So from these responses, our coma subject, would probably come to the conclusion 'hijackers', and probably terrorists. Now the official line suggests mr. Bin Laden and Al Qaeda.

However a google search for "Al Qaeda responsible 9/11" brings up 2 completely different stories. That Al Qaeda claimed responsibility and that they didn't. Both backed up with various quotes and sources.

So which is it?

little known fact... it was actually a guy named Al Kyda, a black ops operative, who orchestrated the whole thing, including seeing to it that the dupes were trained to fly sufficiently for the tasks. Only a handful of others were in on the plan. The anthrax 'attack' ,scaring the pants off congress was the finishing touch... insuring the votes for WAR. * the "Mushroom Cloud" speeches were good too........

(ok,, Mayyyybe not.. but hey, This is the Conspiracy section;)

Edited by lightly
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...but hey, This is the Conspiracy section;)

This thread is more hypothetical than conspiratorial. Where's the conspiracy here again, or am I just too dense?

Maybe the philosophy forum?

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little known fact... it was actually a guy named Al Kyda, a black ops operative, who orchestrated the whole thing, including seeing to it that the dupes were trained to fly sufficiently for the tasks. Only a handful of others were in on the plan. The anthrax 'attack' ,scaring the pants off congress was the finishing touch... insuring the votes for WAR. * the "Mushroom Cloud" speeches were good too........

(ok,, Mayyyybe not.. but hey, This is the Conspiracy section;)

We might have to put another war on hold because the Air Force is now broke and has been shutting down many of its flying squadrons lately. So much for conspiracy theories that 911 was to increase the war chest of the Pentagon. Now, they have shut down the aerial demonstrations teams of the Thunderbirds and the Blue Angels.

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Rome overextended it's military might as well.

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Rome overextended it's military might as well.

We can't forget Napoleon and Waterloo, and Hitler and Germany.

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This thread is more hypothetical than conspiratorial. Where's the conspiracy here again, or am I just too dense?

Maybe the philosophy forum?

I guess it's relevant to both... But as it's 9/11 I feel it belongs here...

The problem starts right with that first question, Who. And there's evidence and backup for both sides... Without knowing for certain who did it, how can ANY investigation claim to have the accurate version of events?

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They were two different groups. and the Afghan Arabs were not supported by the CIA. Simply historical fact s. Did you really think the CIA would support a group that openly declared war on the United States?

Of course the US wouldn't do that! Oh wait.......Libya and Syria. And the the US and NATO supposedly worked with Bin Laden 3 months after 9/11 in Operation Gladio....

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I think a single government could rule the world today; it's not like Roman times when communication and transportation made such ideas impossible. The idea of being "over-extended" might apply to one country trying to rule other countries in a colonial fashion, as colonies in the end always cost more than they are worth and certainly would apply if a country tried to do it by conquest.

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We might have to put another war on hold because the Air Force is now broke and has been shutting down many of its flying squadrons lately. So much for conspiracy theories that 911 was to increase the war chest of the Pentagon. Now, they have shut down the aerial demonstrations teams of the Thunderbirds and the Blue Angels.

Is it possible that "Drones" are cheaper and more cost effective ?

Could that be the reason why they are "shutting down many of its flying squadrons" ?

.

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Well I'm happy to see the US military on a diet. Anyone want to suggest the same to China?

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OK, I'm sure there's 300 or so threads about 9/11, but hopefully this'll be different. Let's do it the other way round...

Let's say that I recently woke up from a 20 year coma, for some reason, the first thing I saw was a couple of hours news footage of 9/11, but without sound, or any station ID's or tickertapes or anything. Basically, just the raw footage.

So I've seen the event, with very little (if any) background knowledge at all...

So bearing that in mind, first question. Who did it?

Due to the co-ordinated takeover of the four flights, the first and most basic assumption must be that an organised group with an agenda carried out the attacks. Following that, the most cursory of investigation reveals the names of those who boarded the stated planes and appear most visibly responsible; Mohammed Atta and the other foreign nationals who undertook flight training and had travelled to Jihadist training camps in Afghanistan. This initial investigation has been further supported by evidence since – there can be no dispute that Mohammed Atta and those others were directly involved in perpetrating the attack.

So we have an answer, but is it sufficient?

What we really need to know, is who were Mohammed Atta and those others. More specifically, going back to the assumption in opening sentence, which groups did they belong to and what was their agenda? Unfortunately this is one of the many areas where the official investigation fell terribly short. Vice Chairman of the 9/11 Commission, Lee Hamilton, would later admit as much: -

Interviewer: What are your unanswered questions?

Hamilton: Well, at the top of my list happens to be a personal one, and that is, I could never figure out why these 19 fellas did what they did. We looked into their backgrounds. In one or two cases, they were apparently happy, well-adjusted, not particularly religious - in one case quite well-to-do, had a girlfriend. We just couldn’t figure out why he did it. I still don’t know. And I think one of the great unanswered questions - a good topic for investigative reporters - would be: why did these 19 do what they did? We speculated in the report about why the enemy hates us, but we simply weren’t able to answer the questions about the 19.

Now as I said, there is no doubt that the ‘hijackers’ were foreign nationals, that they undertook flight training and travelled to Jihadist training camps in Afghanistan where they met with Osama bin Laden. We all know after all, that is pretty much where the official story begins and ends.

What the official story does not account for, and which mainstream media prefers not to raise, is the rest of the background. The large majority of these ‘hijackers’ were not the lifelong, diehard Jihadists that might be expected. No, they were Western acclimatised and educated, only travelling to Afghanistan and/or meeting bin Laden in the 1-2 years before 9/11 (which happened to be the exact same 1999 timeframe that the largest CIA infiltration of Al Qaeda began). Oh it’s interesting that these men happened to use aliases long before their connection to Al Qaeda or 9/11 began. And as Hamilton said above, these ‘hijackers’ were not particularly religious, being open to drinking and women. The apparent fact the ‘hijackers’ pledged their lives for the cause, against the experience of the earlier Bojinka plot where lack of suicidal volunteers could be sourced, and yet a number of them purchased return tickets, is just another point to consider. And of course to enter the country, the ‘hijackers’ obtained their visas from the U.S. Consulate in Jeddah - the same avenue that the CIA used to recruit fighters during Operation Cyclone against the Soviets. Because it is another fact the West do not like to mention agents of their ‘Al Qaeda’ database; double-agents like Ali Mohammed and Omar Sheikh. What else do we know, ever more revealing? That one of the ‘hijackers’ was related to an Israeli intelligence informant and that Mohammed Atta himself had a reported friendship with a CIA asset. That without assistance from the CIA, who prevented an increasingly concerned FBI from taking action against the ‘hijackers’ prior to 9/11, the attack would never have gone ahead, at least as we know it. That the ‘hijackers’ were actually housed, funded and assisted by agents as part of a Western operation. That after 9/11 that support network would also be protected from within the U.S.

Yes Mohammed Atta and those others were involved, bin Laden even credited Atta as the operational leader, or precisely, “in charge” and “commander general”. But for all the world Atta appeared connected not simply to ‘Al Qaeda’ but to a group closer to home, possessing wider influences. A group which had their own agenda to provide the pretext that would replace the Cold War foreign policy driver and ensure American global pre-eminence against their challengers well into the 21st century.

Is it really difficult to understand why the 9/11 Commission were not permitted to delve further into the ‘hijacker’ backgrounds and Lee Hamilton was left with his outstanding question?

So who did it? Mohammed Atta, bin Laden and those others, oh yes... connected to/setup by those with most to gain.

What say you, Spinebreaker? Please feel free to rewind if I've gone too far ahead.

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A group which had their own agenda to provide the pretext that would replace the Cold War foreign policy driver and ensure American global pre-eminence against their challengers well into the 21st century.

^BINGO

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Q

I'm still waiting for your answer to a very short question on the other thread, and I would like to offer another here, if you will.

How do YOU know that the flights were hijacked? Are you accepting Hamilton's comments as proof of that? How do you prove that the flights were hijacked?

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Due to the co-ordinated takeover of the four flights, the first and most basic assumption must be that an organised group with an agenda carried out the attacks. Following that, the most cursory of investigation reveals the names of those who boarded the stated planes and appear most visibly responsible; Mohammed Atta and the other foreign nationals who undertook flight training and had travelled to Jihadist training camps in Afghanistan. This initial investigation has been further supported by evidence since – there can be no dispute that Mohammed Atta and those others were directly involved in perpetrating the attack.

Well, let's take another look. Atta's name appears on the manifest of American 11.

Flight11Manifest_a_s.jpg

And, we have Atta's voice on the radio in the cockpit. Now, what business would Atta have had in the cockpit of American 77?

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0Cz6X4WA7k[/media]

Yes Mohammed Atta and those others were involved, bin Laden even credited Atta as the operational leader, or precisely, “in charge” and “commander general”. But for all the world Atta appeared connected not simply to ‘Al Qaeda’ but to a group closer to home, possessing wider influences. A group which had their own agenda to provide the pretext that would replace the Cold War foreign policy driver and ensure American global pre-eminence against their challengers well into the 21st century.

I am glad that we have firmly established that Atta did in fact, hijack American 11, but what are you implying when you say: "A group which had their own agenda to provide the pretext that would replace the Cold War foreign policy driver and ensure American global pre-eminence against their challengers well into the 21st century."

Right now, the military is broke and the Air Force has tagged 17 squadrons to be shut down, of which 14 already have. Air demonstrations of the Thunderbirds and the Blue Angels have been canceled and the military is faced with a huge budget cutback in the billions of dollars. Apparently, you were taken for a ride to the cleaners, which your post has clearly shown.

Edited by skyeagle409
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How do YOU know that the flights were hijacked? Are you accepting Hamilton's comments as proof of that? How do you prove that the flights were hijacked?

It appears, due to passenger information, family members’ comments and records of multiple agencies, that those chartered commercial flights existed. I do not find it conceivable that the original pilots were in control as the aircraft impacted the targets. Therefore it appears that a hijacking of some sort took place at some time. Don’t think I’m saying that Atta and the rest were entirely responsible though. That's why I refer to them not as hijackers, but 'hijackers'.

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