Do Governments like Conspiracy Theories?

[turbonium]

The 911 attack had nothing to do with a government conspiracy, but resulted from total incompetence and lack of common sense and foresight on the part of senior government officials and our intelligence services..

If it had anything to do with their incompetence, it would result in severe reprimands. But they were rewarded with bonuses and promotions!

What a joke!

[skyeagle409]

If it had anything to do with their incompetence, it would result in severe reprimands. But they were rewarded with bonuses and promotions!

What a joke!

That is nothing new in government. Was former President Lyndon Johnson fired for bungling the Vietnam War? Was J. Edgar Hoover fired for dismissing warnings on Japanese intentions, which later resulted in the attack on Pearl Harbor? In regards to Pearl Harbor, General Short and Admiral Kimmel were made scapegoats over the attack.

You can find many such stories in government, however, I am very sure you can find similar stories in corporations as well.

[flyingswan]

It must have been a good three decades ago that I first saw this on an office wall:

The Six Stages of a Project

1. Enthusiasm

2. Disillusionment

3. Panic

4. Search for the Guilty

5. Punishment of the Innocent

6. Praise and Enthusiasm for the Uninvolved

It is too true to be funny. In this world there is very little correlation between responsibility and reward/punishment. In fact there is another office sign along the lines of:

You can get the job done or you can get the credit for it, but you can't get both.

Edited May 5, 2013 by flyingswan

[Spinebreaker]

They didn't believe it could happen in the United States. Even the FAA dismissed such an attack.

Without wanting to be rude, that's utter nonsense. The FBI had reports that terrorists could use planes to attack "American Landmarks".

"We had general threats involving Osama bin Laden around the world and including in the United States." - Ari Fleischer WhiteHouse Press Officer.

The CIA had intercepted messages that made them believe a "group presently in the United States" were planning "imminent threats". Our secret service over here in the UK warned during 2001 that "Multiple hijackings from members of the Al-Qaeda network". On the 6th of August, the CIA sent a memo actually titled "Bin Laden determined to strike in US" : http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB116/

So, no conspiracy here. The secret services and intelligence agencies did their job. WELL. The White House knew it could happen, who would be involved, a rough timescale, AND that it could happen on home-soil. THEN all officials went on record to say "we never could imagine it". Lies.

In most countries this would result in a negligence hearing, or at LEAST a question or 2 being asked.

[Spinebreaker]

Many aircraft are inadvertently flown off-course for one reason or another everyday and nothing to do with a direct threat to anyone, so if a pilot accidently shot down the wrong airliner, or an airliner that suffered from equipment malfunction, that pilot would have to live with that mistake for the rest of his or her life, a risk that some commanders did not want to experience and why some commanders refused to forward those orders to their pilots, yet 911 conspiracist decided to conjure up unfounded conspiracies because they did not bother to do their homework.

Why on earth would a plane off-course immediately be shot down?

You want homework...

There are roughly 15,000 registered aircraft in the US of A. (Figures vary pretty wildly, from 12-17,000, but let's stick with 15,000)

At any given time there could be between 4 and 8 thousand in the air over America (obviously, you have 'rush hour' just like on the ground) Looks like this, second picture is JUST America (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/09/18/see-what-more-than-6000-planes-flying-worldwide-at-one-time-looks-like/)

It's not tricky to imagine how fast a plane can move out of it's flight corridor. These things are moving at about 530 MPH (850 KMPH) and are meant to be travelling in fairly straight lines. They go off course LOTS. 5 degrees off course requires pretty quick correction, but nowadays plane's do all of that stuff themselves. The Pilot's pretty much there to take off, land and flirt with thee stewardess.

The idea that there isn't a system, a rigid system in place to deal with this incredibly common occurrence is absolutely mind-numbing.

Obviously they're gonna try radio contact, then contact superiors, then try some kind of emergency frequency... Then planes might be scrambled, and I very much doubt they use weapons as a first resort...

Basically, if you have over 50,000 planes in the sky EVERY day, cruising at very similar altitudes, you HAVE to have a plan for problems, otherwise planes will collide and people will die every day.

I, personally, think 45 minutes is far, fartoo long to allow a plane off-course unchecked, to travel 600 KM towards potentially, another plane.

I know a couple of pilots. (I'm afraid I have no proof to reference, you'll just have to trust me (or not, your call )) Over here in the UK, both of them have been trained in what to do if the RAF turn up to guide them back on course. I massively doubt America is that different...

[skyeagle409]

Without wanting to be rude, that's utter nonsense. The FBI had reports that terrorists could use planes to attack "American Landmarks".

Of course the FBI had such reports, but still they didn't believe it could happen in the United States. The FAA also came to that same conclusion as well, and the rest is history.

"We had general threats involving Osama bin Laden around the world and including in the United States." - Ari Fleischer WhiteHouse Press Officer.

We also had warnings that dated back to 1995.

The CIA had intercepted messages that made them believe a "group presently in the United States" were planning "imminent threats". Our secret service over here in the UK warned during 2001 that "Multiple hijackings from members of the Al-Qaeda network". On the 6th of August, the CIA sent a memo actually titled "Bin Laden determined to strike in US" : http://www.gwu.edu/~...AEBB/NSAEBB116/

And still, they dropped the ball. Remember, we had warnings of Pearl Harbor, but there were those who didn't think it could happen, however, that Japanese attack on December 7, 1941 made believers out of skeptics.

[skyeagle409]

Why on earth would a plane off-course immediately be shot down?

What happen here?

Korean Air Lines Flight 902

Korean Air Lines Flight 902 was a civilian airliner shot down by Soviet Sukhoi Su-15 fighters on April 20, 1978, near Murmansk, Russia, after it violated Soviet airspace and failed to respond to Soviet interceptors. Two passengers were killed in the incident. 107 passengers and crew survived after the plane made an emergency landing on a frozen lake.

Korean Air Lines Flight 007

Korean Air Lines Flight 007, also known as KAL 007 or KE007, was a Korean Air Lines Boeing 747 civilian airliner shot down by a Soviet Su-15TM fighter on September 1, 1983, near

Moneron Island just west of Sakhalin island. 269 passengers and crew, including US congressman Larry McDonald, were aboard KAL 007; there were no known survivors. An official investigation concluded that the course deviation was likely caused by pilot error in configuring their air navigation system.

My aircraft was involved in flying recovery gear from the Philippines to Japan for Korean Flight 007.

Edited May 7, 2013 by skyeagle409

[Spinebreaker]

Of course the FBI had such reports, but still they didn't believe it could happen in the United States. The FAA also came to that same conclusion as well, and the rest is history.

Sorry, don't believe it. Why have such a highly paid, highly budgeted, high profile, well equipped organisation listening, intercepting and studying this information, just to ignore it?

We also had warnings that dated back to 1995.

and about 2 dozen from that year, some of them indicating a time scale. Yet again, dozens, hundreds, maybe thousands of intelligence agents and millions of dollars worth of equipment sitting there collating data, just to be ignored...

Flight 902 "after it violated Soviet airspace and failed to respond to Soviet interceptors."

Flight 007 was off course after 10 minutes, it wasn't shot down for almost an hour.

I'd say neither of those were shot down "instantly", or without other recourse first.

[skyeagle409]

Sorry, don't believe it. Why have such a highly paid, highly budgeted, high profile, well equipped organisation listening, intercepting and studying this information, just to ignore it?

Believe it. Check it out.

C.I.A. Lays Out Errors It Made Before Sept. 11

WASHINGTON, Aug. 21 — A report released Tuesday by the Central Intelligence Agency includes new details of the agency’s missteps before the Sept. 11 attacks, outlining what the report says were failures to grasp the role being played by the terror mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and to assess fully the threats streaming into the C.I.A. in the summer of 2001.

http://www.worldsecuritynetwork.com/United-States/Terence-Neilan-and-David-Stout-/Tenet-admits-mistakes

FBI Chief Acknowledges 9/11 Errors

FBI Director Robert Mueller, acknowledging serious lapses in how the FBI mishandled some information prior to Sept. 11, suggested for the first time that investigators might have detected the terrorist plot if they had pursued leads more diligently.

Mueller's acknowledgment came amid two new disclosures of what could be missed hints about Sept. 11.

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-510607.html

FAA MOST RESPONSIBLE FOR 9-11

Despite a congressional panel investigating potential intelligence failures leading up to the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks releasing a report today that points to mistakes made by the CIA and FBI, an aviation security consultant says it is the Federal Aviation Administration that should take most of the blame for the tragedy.

http://www.wnd.com/2003/07/19919/#Wsr5iE4382TjQRiq.99

The errors were clearly evident and I have noted before that such errors continued years after the 911 attacks.

Flight 007 was off course after 10 minutes, it wasn't shot down for almost an hour.

Korean Flight 007 was in international airspace when it was shot down.

[psyche101]

Sorry, don't believe it. Why have such a highly paid, highly budgeted, high profile, well equipped organisation listening, intercepting and studying this information, just to ignore it?

When Japanese Pilots hit Pearl Harbour, many did not believe that such a thing as Kamikaze existed. People insisted nobody in their right mind would kill themselves by flying a plane directly into a target.

and about 2 dozen from that year, some of them indicating a time scale. Yet again, dozens, hundreds, maybe thousands of intelligence agents and millions of dollars worth of equipment sitting there collating data, just to be ignored...

Flight 902 "after it violated Soviet airspace and failed to respond to Soviet interceptors."

Flight 007 was off course after 10 minutes, it wasn't shot down for almost an hour.

I'd say neither of those were shot down "instantly", or without other recourse first.

Does the frequency not indicate that complacency might be an issue?

Edited May 7, 2013 by psyche101

[DONTEATUS]

The Book Store`s Love the Conspiracy`s !

[skyeagle409]

The Book Store`s Love the Conspiracy`s !

I heard that! I am surprised that conspiracist have yet to thrown in a conspiracy surrounding the Port Chicago disaster in California, which isn't very far from where I live.

The Port Chicago Disaster

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Chicago_disaster

.

[Spinebreaker]

Believe it. Check it out.

So it's just incompetence. Massive, massive, institutionalised incompetence involving a group of people doing a job for the government, being paid by the government specifically to listen to transmissions, intercept potential threats, ignored on a wholesale scale, repeatedly and their incompetence led to the death of thousands.

Which explains the negligence hearing and the lawsuits.

Oh yeah, they didn't happen.

Korean Flight 007 was in international airspace when it was shot down.

Not according to your link.

When Japanese Pilots hit Pearl Harbour, many did not believe that such a thing as Kamikaze existed. People insisted nobody in their right mind would kill themselves by flying a plane directly into a target.

Even so, that was 70 years ago. The Chinese army in the middle ages used to have a front line of troops willing to slit their own throats just to terrify the enemy. Vlad the impaler killed 300 people in his own home just to show the bavarians what he was capable of. Kamikaze pilots existed, people flying into buildings happens, suicide bombers happened. The idea it was rejected on the basis of "No-one would do that, surely." I find utterly ridiculous.

Does the frequency not indicate that complacency might be an issue?

As I said before, not complacency. In most other countries, outright criminal negligence.

[psyche101]

Even so, that was 70 years ago. The Chinese army in the middle ages used to have a front line of troops willing to slit their own throats just to terrify the enemy. Vlad the impaler killed 300 people in his own home just to show the bavarians what he was capable of. Kamikaze pilots existed, people flying into buildings happens, suicide bombers happened. The idea it was rejected on the basis of "No-one would do that, surely." I find utterly ridiculous.

How familiar are you with Barbara Bodine's role in 911?

As I said before, not complacency. In most other countries, outright criminal negligence.

In some cases yes, but I think you are broad brushing a bit.

[Spinebreaker]

How familiar are you with Barbara Bodine's role in 911?

The name rings a bell, not sure why though.

In some cases yes, but I think you are broad brushing a bit.

I don't think it's too out of line to say there's fault here that's being at best ignored, and at worst actively covered up.

Over 20 warnings that year, (sources vary, up to 28 or so, and that's reported warnings), threats and warnings going back to the nineties. Now I'm sure there were shedloads of other threats and warnings too... Now I'm sure it's a lot of people deciding which threats are credible/important enough to look into, but if the reported warnings are correct, as of August 2001 the security agencies of the western world knew that Al Qaeda had the intention of attacking US landmarks, had agents on US soil, maybe learning to pilot planes.

That, to me, sounds credible, and the combination of Planes plus Landmarks can help work it out. I'd like to think (Admittedly, hindsight is always 20/20) that if I had been bought these pieces of info, I could have come up with a list of possible targets, and the Twin Towers would be in my top 5.

Then, for Bush et al, to do their official speeches and press conferences and to look into a camera at millions and say, with a straight face, "We had no way of knowing", "We could not conceive of this"... Negligence. Negligence leading to thousands of dead people. Negligence that was lied about afterwards. Negligence with no consequences. It's not hard to understand why some people think the government had a hand in it.

[skyeagle409]

So it's just incompetence. Massive, massive, institutionalised incompetence involving a group of people doing a job for the government, being paid by the government specifically to listen to transmissions, intercept potential threats, ignored on a wholesale scale, repeatedly and their incompetence led to the death of thousands.

Did you post the following message?

Sorry, don't believe it. Why have such a highly paid, highly budgeted, high profile, well equipped organisation listening, intercepting and studying this information, just to ignore it?

Now, you know why I responded the way I did.

Not according to your link.

It was, and according to the Intel briefing we received at Clark airbase prior to being tasked to fly to Cubi Point, Philippines to upload and deliver recovery gear to Japan.

[Spinebreaker]

Did you post the following message?

Now, you know why I responded the way I did.

I don't see the correlation. I'm saying that...

A - It is ridiculous for so many people and so much equipment to be being paid for and funded for intelligence gathering purposes and then to be ignored.

B - If all this info was ignored, then it's incompetence on a scale that should be considered negligent, and subsequent behaviour by the Bush administration was lies.

It was, and according to the Intel briefing we received at Clark airbase prior to being tasked to fly to Cubi Point, Philippines to upload and deliver recovery gear to Japan.

you posted those links after I said I doubted planes would be shot down 'instantly', neither of the examples you cite were shot down instantly.

One flew into restricted airspace and was 'unresponsive', the other was off-course for 5 hours in repudiated airspace... I understand why both were shot down.

[skyeagle409]

I don't see the correlation. I'm saying that...

A - It is ridiculous for so many people and so much equipment to be being paid for and funded for intelligence gathering purposes and then to be ignored.

B - If all this info was ignored, then it's incompetence on a scale that should be considered negligent, and subsequent behaviour by the Bush administration was lies.

The point is, the government and its intelligence services admitted to mistakes made prior to the 911 attacks, mistakes that continued for years after the 911 attacks.

you posted those links after I said I doubted planes would be shot down 'instantly', neither of the examples you cite were shot down instantly.

By the time United 93 crashed near Shanksville, no shoot-down orders were issued, and once again, some commanders refused to issue those orders to their pilots even after the shoot-down order was received.

One flew into restricted airspace and was 'unresponsive', the other was off-course for 5 hours in repudiated airspace... I understand why both were shot down.

The Korean airliners did not pose a threat to the Soviet Union. The real threat to the United States and to the Soviet Union was the false missile warning from Soviet early warning satellites later that month and at no time has the world come as close to a global nuclear war as it did then.

Edited May 7, 2013 by skyeagle409

[Spinebreaker]

The point is, the government and its intelligence services admitted to mistakes made prior to the 911 attacks, mistakes that continued for years after the 911 attacks.

So. As they have admitted mistakes, logically there should be repercussions yes? Why do we not hear about or see these repercussions?

By the time United 93 crashed near Shanksville, no shoot-down orders were issued, and once again, some commanders refused to issue those orders to their pilots even after the shoot-down order was received.

I have NO idea why you are bringing in flight 93. I have not referenced it, I have made no arguments regarding it.

The Korean airliners did not pose a threat to the Soviet Union. The real threat to the United States and to the Soviet Union was the false missile warning from Soviet early warning satellites later that month and at no time has the world come as close to a global nuclear war as it did then.

Possibly so. Regardless, given the info you posted...

A - I understand why both were shot down (Though I do not necessarily agree)

B - I still do not fully understand why you mentioned them

[skyeagle409]

So. As they have admitted mistakes, logically there should be repercussions yes? Why do we not hear about or see these repercussions?

Not enough pressure, but just enough for them to admit their errors.

[psyche101]

The name rings a bell, not sure why though.

I don't think it's too out of line to say there's fault here that's being at best ignored, and at worst actively covered up.

Over 20 warnings that year, (sources vary, up to 28 or so, and that's reported warnings), threats and warnings going back to the nineties. Now I'm sure there were shedloads of other threats and warnings too... Now I'm sure it's a lot of people deciding which threats are credible/important enough to look into, but if the reported warnings are correct, as of August 2001 the security agencies of the western world knew that Al Qaeda had the intention of attacking US landmarks, had agents on US soil, maybe learning to pilot planes.

That, to me, sounds credible, and the combination of Planes plus Landmarks can help work it out. I'd like to think (Admittedly, hindsight is always 20/20) that if I had been bought these pieces of info, I could have come up with a list of possible targets, and the Twin Towers would be in my top 5.

Then, for Bush et al, to do their official speeches and press conferences and to look into a camera at millions and say, with a straight face, "We had no way of knowing", "We could not conceive of this"... Negligence. Negligence leading to thousands of dead people. Negligence that was lied about afterwards. Negligence with no consequences. It's not hard to understand why some people think the government had a hand in it.

I do feel you might rather enjoy the mini series The Path to 911, or perhaps PBS' The Man Who Knew. It will outline Bodine's role, who in my opinion was the unlocked gate that let all this happen. I think there were many other people covering their backsides too, which I am not sure is nefarious, but perhaps more along the lines of self preservation. Bodine stopped the one guy who knew the attack was going to happen, and who knew who would mastermind it. He was a playboy with a wife and a Girlfriend, and Ms Bodine took quite some offence to his footloose lifestyle. She teamed up with a man called PIkard and together they stopped John ONeil from investigating the operation in it's early stages. He ended up head of security at the WTC and perished in the attacks.

As such, it is hard to say who really knew what. Bodine's roadblock reached all the way to Yemen. But if one person could have stopped this from happening, it was her.

You are right, they could have conceived of this, that is no doubt an exaggeration, but not one I would hang someone on. Wether Oneils information ever reached the right places is more than dubious, but had it been taken seriously, I feel it is very possible that 911 would never have happened. The Bojinka Plot was rather similar in design. That alone says they should have suspected it was possible, however, that does not mean they knew it would happen either.

We know mistakes were made, we even know who dropped the ball. I am not sure why people like Bodine were not immediately dishonorably dismissed, but I do not feel that indicates that she has some powerful personal influences. The kid gloves used to handle her are suspicious, and I can see why people would ask questions, but I do not see that it would absolve the very fact that the killers on 911 were heralded by their religion in many parts of the world. It's no mystery who did it, a bigger one is why so many CT'ers want to see the people who we know are responsible walk away. From what I can tell, it's a personal thing.

I am pretty glad Bodine is not looking after my country.

[DONTEATUS]

Im ready to Move to Oz. Psyche101 ! GEt me a Green Slip Please ! I can Fix anything with Engines,wheels, wings,and a Seat to Run it by !

[turbonium]

That is nothing new in government. Was former President Lyndon Johnson fired for bungling the Vietnam War? Was J. Edgar Hoover fired for dismissing warnings on Japanese intentions, which later resulted in the attack on Pearl Harbor? In regards to Pearl Harbor, General Short and Admiral Kimmel were made scapegoats over the attack.

You can find many such stories in government, however, I am very sure you can find similar stories in corporations as well.

9/11 was far different though.

They weren't jgiven the same jobs. They were actually rewarded for being incompetent morons.

If it was an isolated incident, perhaps it could be explained in some way.

But it was not isolated at all.

It was all too common,

They did a good job being imbeciles, allowing the mass murder to be successful.

[Spinebreaker]

9/11 was far different though.

They weren't jgiven the same jobs. They were actually rewarded for being incompetent morons.

If it was an isolated incident, perhaps it could be explained in some way.

But it was not isolated at all.

It was all too common,

They did a good job being imbeciles, allowing the mass murder to be successful.

I agree. The official explanation requires us to accept that the CIA, FBI, NSA, UN, MOSSAD, MI6, The US government, USAF and everyone else, was incompetent at the same time. AND there was further incompetence afterwards, and most of it was not even acknowledged, let alone punished...

I personally think 3 or 4 people being corrupt is more likely.

[skyeagle409]

9/11 was far different though. They weren't jgiven the same jobs. They were actually rewarded for being incompetent morons.

If it was an isolated incident, perhaps it could be explained in some way.

But it was not isolated at all.

It was all too common,

They did a good job being imbeciles, allowing the mass murder to be successful.

Nothing there to suggest a government 911 conspiracy because warnings were issued from a number of countries around the world that Muslim terrorist were in the final stage of attacking the United states, and remember, Osama bin Laden declared war on the United States and as a result, he lost his life.