Minoan civilization was made in Europe

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Or Atlantis?

Oh, crap, I shouldn't have said that.

Maybe Doogerland inspired Plato.

Edited May 19, 2013 by the L

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Multi Ethnic is crucial to this story.

Edited May 19, 2013 by the L

[Frank Merton]

Oh to have such a narrow waist!

[questionmark]

Because some linguists/historians thought these Cretans came from Libya or Egypt.

Still would not be really news, the Minoan culture and civilization was created on Crete and the surrounding islands, there is no vestige of it in either North Africa nor Anatolia that existed prior to Crete. If we were to go after the headline all cultures were made in Africa.

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, I know this is offtopic but what do you think where surviving Doggerlanders settled?

Perhaps on Crete?

First on the coasts of the newly formed North Sea. Others may have sailed up the Weser, Elbe, Rhine and Meuse to find a place to settle in Europe.

I have my doubts about them sailing the open seas, although there is proof of them practising whaling. Sailing though the new Strait of Dover must have been an impressive, but also a very scary and dangerous experience because the cliffs on both sides were much closer than they are now (see images on page 57 or 58 of the Doggerland thread) and thus creating a strong current.

But there's another way to cross Europe, and that's by the rivers. People could have sailed up the Rhine or Elbe as far as possible, then walked a relative short distance, and then again continue on the Danube up to the Black Sea. Of course, to travel up the Rhine/Elbe (ie. against the current) they had to have many rowers or sails if they went on the move as a whole tribe (or its survivors). I doubt they had ships like that back then. Or else it was done using many dugout canoes.

Btw, these rivers could have been known trade routes.

MAP 4: 8,500 years ago - sea level rises, flooding through the gaps in the hills, joining the North Sea and the Atlantic.

http://www.unexplain...25#entry4567737

http://www.unexplain...40#entry4737947

.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

No not at all. There is also many Findas folk and Lydas people too. But specifically it does mention Minos/Minno as being born Fryan. J's answer is ridiculously off what the book states too. There was many non-Fryans.

I'm not here to talk too much OLB but I will link the appropriate part, so for anyone not familiar with it - because it really makes a lot of sense that he did imo. This is not the Cretans, this is one man, Minno the law-maker - so famed for his fair and just laws he holds a place of judge in mythology.

USEFUL EXTRACTS FROM THE WRITINGS LEFT BY MINNO.

Minno was an ancient sea-king. He was a seer and a philosopher, and he gave laws to the Cretans. He was born at Lindaoord, and after all his wanderings he had the happiness to die at Lindahem.

If our neighbours have a piece of land or water which it would be advantageous for us to possess, it is proper that we should offer to buy it. If they refuse to sell it, we must let them keep it. This is Frya’s Tex, and it would be unjust to act contrary to it.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/

So, the Cretans/Minoans could be a culture from wherever, Europe, Anatolia but Minos would be from Europe according to the OLB.

The problem with that scenario is that this Fryan Minno must have spoken a Nordic language while nothing proves the Cretans spoke a Nordic language. Another point is of course that the OLB (Oera Linda Book) is considered to be a hoax/fabrication by most people.

[The Puzzler]

The problem with that scenario is that this Fryan Minno must have spoken a Nordic language while nothing proves the Cretans spoke a Nordic language. Another point is of course that the OLB (Oera Linda Book) is considered to be a hoax/fabrication by most people.

Tell me the obvious why don't you Abe?

Anyway, nothing says ALL the Cretans had to speak a Nordic language when only Minos did.

When I came away from Athenia with my followers, we arrived at an island named by my crew Kreta, because of the cries that the inhabitants raised on our arrival.

[Abramelin]

Tell me the obvious why don't you Abe?

Anyway, nothing says ALL the Cretans had to speak a Nordic language when only Minos did.

When I came away from Athenia with my followers, we arrived at an island named by my crew Kreta, because of the cries that the inhabitants raised on our arrival.

Sorry, I don't understand your question.

=

OK, so not all spoke Nordic, but it was sort of a colony of the Fryans with laws and all, so I expect to see something in OLB writing and language to show up. But alas, only Linear A and B, and that looks not like Nordic (or "Fryan" if you like) at all.

Did the Minoans visit the ancestors of the Frisians? Possibly they did (as you will remember from the OLB thread):

Toos said...

Some translation of the first part:

So the really exciting findings are lying under the late-medieval Rungholt?

At least the most surprising. Obviously there are several preceding settlements from the 4rth and 3rd century BC. One find did almost upset us: we came upon remains of levantine and especially minoan ceramics for transportation and daily use from Crete, 13th and 14th century BC. Among this, sherds of two tripod coockingpots. That's why we suppose ships traveling already 1400 BC from Crete to the coast of northern Frisia.

Would this be antiqities, transported by a modern ship?

No. Our findings were lying under a bronze-age layer of peat, build up - we suspect - already 1200 BC. Indeed during settlement in the middle ages, most of these turflayers were dug off - but nowhere in places to be used for wharfs and hauses. And exactly at such a place we discovered the antique ceramics! The pots we found, were highly likely not tradewares, finding their way to northern Frisia by commision-agents. The valueless ceramics for daily use did belong with great certainty to the equipment of a ship.

What could have tempted the Minoans from Crete in the North Sea in the 14th century BC?

That was the tin from Cornwall [etcetera]

So, probably a little bit more than one pot.

http://dienekes.blog...in-germany.html

.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Abramelin

[docyabut2]

Perhaps the Minoans were of the old Tartessian culture of Spain, they still have the running and jumping of the bulls, plus bull fights,and Atlantis was of bulls fights. They do have records of a extint language that goes back 6000 years.

Plato

There were bulls who had the range of the temple of Poseidon; and the ten kings, being left alone in the temple, after they had offered prayers to the god that they might capture the victim which was acceptable to him, hunted the bulls, without weapons but with staves and nooses; and the bull which they caught they led up to the pillar and cut its throat over the top of it so that the blood fell upon the sacred inscription.

Edited May 19, 2013 by docyabut2

[The Puzzler]

Sorry, I don't understand your question.

=

OK, so not all spoke Nordic, but it was sort of a colony of the Fryans with laws and all, so I expect to see something in OLB writing and language to show up. But alas, only Linear A and B, and that looks not like Nordic (or "Fryan" if you like) at all.

Did the Minoans visit the ancestors of the Frisians? Possibly they did (as you will remember from the OLB thread):

http://dienekes.blog...in-germany.html

.

It wasn't a real question, more like a sarcastic response to you telling me the OLB was a probable fabrication. It wasn't mean or anything, more like, tell me something I don't know.

It wasn't a colony of the Fryans, Minos escaped to there, lived there and returned home to die. I know what you mean but I did read the parts and couldn't find anything about Fryans being Cretans.

The language thing I need more time to think about and disect, however I still say the Cretans did not have to take on his language totally but early Minoan Linear A and B could have some words of Fryan origin.

Edited May 20, 2013 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Perhaps the Minoans were of the old Tartessian culture of Spain, they still have the running and jumping of the bulls, plus bull fights,and Atlantis was of bulls fights. They do have records of a extint language that goes back 6000 years.

Plato

There were bulls who had the range of the temple of Poseidon; and the ten kings, being left alone in the temple, after they had offered prayers to the god that they might capture the victim which was acceptable to him, hunted the bulls, without weapons but with staves and nooses; and the bull which they caught they led up to the pillar and cut its throat over the top of it so that the blood fell upon the sacred inscription.

Yes.

That's how I came upon the idea that Minoans might have been from Spain. If anyone thinks Crete is Atlantis, the progression into the Med. from Spain seems fairly logical.

Edited May 20, 2013 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Abe pointed this fascinating titbit out:

Among this, sherds of two tripod coockingpots. That's why we suppose ships traveling already 1400 BC from Crete to the coast of northern Frisia.

From Crete to Frisia - and the OLB tells us that Minno was Fryan/Frisian....

I've said for ages that most mythology from the Med. is from Northern Europe, coming in when amber did, as well as tin, in the Nordic Bronze Age timeframe.

The area the potsherds were found is on the west coast of Denmark, in the German Bight in Frisian territory, which has disappeared under the water over time, leaving only a few small islands now.

http://en.wikipedia....lligen_1858.png

Edited May 20, 2013 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

It wasn't a real question, more like a sarcastic response to you telling me the OLB was a probable fabrication. It wasn't mean or anything, more like, tell me something I don't know.

It wasn't a colony of the Fryans, Minos escaped to there, lived there and returned home to die. I know what you mean but I did read the parts and couldn't find anything about Fryans being Cretans.

The language thing I need more time to think about and disect, however I still say the Cretans did not have to take on his language totally but early Minoan Linear A and B could have some words of Fryan origin.

Ah, sarcasm,lol. Well, I know you know what the OLB discussion is about, but you can't expect anyone in this thread to know what the OLB discussion is about, and that's why I posted what I posted.

-

OK, no colony if you like, but he fled from Athens to Crete, and bought a harbour there. Later on he gave the Cretans laws. You don't do that if you plan to stay for months or something. He settled there, and later returned to where he was born.

We both have read the OLB and we know it looks "remarkably" like Old English/Old Dutch/Old German/Old Frisian. I wonder: how did Minno and his people talk with these Cretans, and why are we in the 21st century not able to read their language, except for a few words?

[The Puzzler]

Ah, sarcasm,lol. Well, I know you know what the OLB discussion is about, but you can't expect anyone in this thread to know what the OLB discussion is about, and that's why I posted what I posted.

-

OK, no colony if you like, but he fled from Athens to Crete, and bought a harbour there. Later on he gave the Cretans laws. You don't do that if you plan to stay for months or something. He settled there, and later returned to where he was born.

We both have read the OLB and we know it looks "remarkably" like Old English/Old Dutch/Old German/Old Frisian. I wonder: how did Minno and his people talk with these Cretans, and why are we in the 21st century not able to read their language, except for a few words?

Fair enough. Maybe direct at them next time.

Yes, I'm wondering. So they said Kreta on his arrival, we know that much. They then named the island Krete/Crete from that. It could be the people of Crete spoke an intelligible language, being an early IE language, but not actually the same language as Minno.

This is interesting, to me: However a diphthong is by definition two vowels united into a single sound and therefore might be typed as just V.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_B

because that's what I said the word SVN was - actually a form of Dutch zoon/son - a V might take the place of 2 vowels in the words where V is used, not as an actual V, SVN is the example that befits well.

Edited May 20, 2013 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

Fair enough. Maybe direct at them next time.

Yes, I'm wondering. So they said Kreta on his arrival, we know that much. They then named the island Krete/Crete from that. It could be the people of Crete spoke an intelligible language, being an early IE language, but not actually the same language as Minno.

No, the people uttered cries on Minno's arrival. Those cries or screams are "KRETA" in OLB-ish, or KRETEN in Dutch.

Btw, the singular in Middle Dutch (and no doubt in OLB-ish too...) is CRETE/KRETE

.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Abramelin

[Frank Merton]

Drawing any sort of conclusion, or even hypothesis, from a few linguistic similarities, is not persuasive.

[Abramelin]

Drawing any sort of conclusion, or even hypothesis, from a few linguistic similarities, is not persuasive.

You tell me, lol.

But that's what the OLB is largely based on, folk etymology.

[The Puzzler]

Drawing any sort of conclusion, or even hypothesis, from a few linguistic similarities, is not persuasive.

Maybe not persuasive but certainly interesting.

How did Crete get it's name? Maybe you've got a more persuasive answer.

Also to Abe:

The current name of Crete first appears in Mycenaean Greek as ke-re-si-jo "Cretan" in Linear B texts. In Ancient Greek, the name Crete (Κρήτη) first appears in Homer's Odyssey.^[4] Its etymology is unknown. One speculative proposal derives it from a hypothetical Luvian word *kursatta (cf. kursawar "island", kursattar "cutting, sliver").^[5] In Latin, it became Creta.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crete

If anything else, Crete might be named for the type of clay/chalk soil or something. As in concrete, chalk, clay. Linear B is ke-re-si-jo and I'm considering the wording yet.

As for kreta being a greeting, what is equal in English? greet, greeta?

Old English grētan, from Proto-Germanic *grōtijaną. Cognate with Dutch groeten, German grüßen. Compare Old Saxon grotian, Old Frisian greta, Old High German gruozen. Cognate to Albanian grish (“to invite, call”).

Funny how it's mostly a 'g' in other IE languages. Abe will know the sailors spoke a bit different from the land Fryans - Aldland became Atland for them, they shortened everything and d became t. Kreta was named by MINNO's CREW. Sailors.

Kreta is not in the Frisian dictionary. (..that I can see, Abe might show me if it is though.)

credo was the first word of the Apostles and means 'I believe'. It IS in the Frisian dictionary.

perhaps from PIE compound *kerd-dhe- "to believe," literally "to put one's heart" (cf. Old Irish cretim, Irish creidim, Welsh credu "I believe," Sanskrit śrad-dhā- "faith"). The nativized form is creed.

http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0

The good faith Minno was taken into Crete in and his laws that they believed in, doesn't escape me.

Edited May 20, 2013 by The Puzzler

[Frank Merton]

I saw a monograph once where the author had taken Finnish and Iroquois and compiled a list of over a hundred remarkable similarities. Not straight synonyms, but words close enough in meaning to be relatable. (Like "forest" in one language and "wood" in the other).

Does this mean the Finno-Ugaritic languages and whatever group Iroquois is part of are somehow connected? The point of the exercise was to show that one can do this sort of thing with any two given languages. From this one concludes that the existence of individual similarities is meaningless -- not even "interesting," but utterly meaningless if not actually misleading.

The way linguists connect languages is not with individual words, but with word patterns and rules of a systematic relationship.

[The Puzzler]

I saw a monograph once where the author had taken Finnish and Iroquois and compiled a list of over a hundred remarkable similarities. Not straight synonyms, but words close enough in meaning to be relatable. (Like "forest" in one language and "wood" in the other).

Does this mean the Finno-Ugaritic languages and whatever group Iroquois is part of are somehow connected? The point of the exercise was to show that one can do this sort of thing with any two given languages. From this one concludes that the existence of individual similarities is meaningless -- not even "interesting," but utterly meaningless if not actually misleading.

The way linguists connect languages is not with individual words, but with word patterns and rules of a systematic relationship.

As both are IE languages (meaning specifically Linear B/Greek and Frisian) they will connect, it's just a matter of connecting the right etymology in the correct context to find what language it is.

As the Wiki site said and I bolded: Its etymology is unknown

[The Puzzler]

That's what I like to do to solve the puzzles, some call it lego-linguistics, whatever, I don't see them coming up with any alternatives...

Remind me of people who whine about everything and when you say "well what do you think could be a solution?" they say "I dunno...".

Atlas is a good example and I've followed enough words to see the pattern. When a words etymology is unknown, the language it originated in remains unknown. If the etymology can be figured out, it's likely the parent language will become known. I can make what I like out of Atlas and it's no better or worse than anyone else can do.

The etymology of the name Atlas is uncertain and still debated. Virgil took pleasure in translating etymologies of Greek names by combining them with adjectives that explained them: for Atlas his adjective is durus, "hard, enduring",^[6] which suggested to George Doig^[7] that Virgil was aware of the Greek τλήναι "to endure"; Doig offers the further possibility that Virgil was aware of Strabo's remark that the native North African name for this mountain was Douris. Since the Atlas mountains rise in the region inhabited by Berbers, it has been suggested that the name might be taken from one of the Berber languages, specifically adrar, Berber for "mountain".^[8]

Some modern linguists derive it and its Greek root from the Proto-Indo-European root *tel, 'to uphold, support'; others^{[citation needed]} suggest that it is an Indo-European name. Others hold it is non-Indo-European, or Pelasgian in origin, associated with the word "thalassa", meaning "sea".

http://en.wikipedia....tlas_(mythology)

Edited May 20, 2013 by The Puzzler

[Echosignal]

Hello everyone!

There is an ancient Greek myth about ''Kourites'' (Κουρήτες). Kourites were the first inhabitants of Crete. Heracles (not the known demigod), Epimedes, Peonios, Iasios and Idas. It is speculated that ''Kourites'' is the origin of the word Crete. ''Crete'' in Greek, is (Κρήτη) Kriti.

Kourites = Krites (Cretans - the residents of Crete) = Kriti. It makes sense, but then again it is just a speculation as I previously mentioned.

Here is a link with some info about them http://www.crete-kre...protectors-zeus

Edited May 22, 2013 by Echosignal

[Frank Merton]

One says, "I dunno" when one doesn't know and when the evidence strikes one as unconvincing and just guesswork.

The threshold between accepting something as true and seeing it as only an interesting possibility is subtle and is going to be different for each person. Since I have childhood knowledge of several languages, I am well aware of the phenomenon of "false friends," words that indicate they mean one thing but in fact don't -- linguistic similarities that can lead one all over the place and achieve nothing.