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Dolphins recognized as non-human persons


redhen

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My point is if they only just found out that a dolphin is non human then they should not be having nuclear weapons! Its not rocket science......actually!

Yes, it is not rocket science, I would not get too upset, I think most of the rest of the world "got it". I had a chuckle anyways.

I think it shows a little too much Pie in the sky, and I agree. Too many people think Dolphins are benevolent intuitive creatures that are bordering on Einstein. They are a big wild animal with teeth. They are known to rape people (Demi Moore is one supposedly), commit infanticide and kill other species for target practice. They are a wild animal and should be considered as such. This personification nonsense is really quite childish, and I agree, I sure hope whoever came up with this "brilliant idea" would be a worry in charge of Nukes. If they think this is a "good idea" who knows how their brain works.

The silver lining here is that the captivity of Dolphins is being shut down. The is overdue, and I wish my own country Australia would get on board and consider this, as our New Zealand cousins have done this as well for a very long time now, and stop pretending to be worried about cetaceans when we keep them captive. Hell, it's actually a little embarrassing that such a crackpot idea can put others so far in front of our own thinking. It also shows that the Aussie Government is completely full of it when they claim to be concerned about whaling.

Whaling! No Way, but we can do what we want with Dolphins. That's OK.

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Indeed. People should stop seeing them as magical creatures. They have flaws - just like any other animal.

They are not magical but I think there is much more to them than meets the eye.

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Yes, it is not rocket science, I would not get too upset, I think most of the rest of the world "got it". I had a chuckle anyways.

I think it shows a little too much Pie in the sky, and I agree. Too many people think Dolphins are benevolent intuitive creatures that are bordering on Einstein. They are a big wild animal with teeth. They are known to rape people (Demi Moore is one supposedly), commit infanticide and kill other species for target practice. They are a wild animal and should be considered as such. This personification nonsense is really quite childish, and I agree, I sure hope whoever came up with this "brilliant idea" would be a worry in charge of Nukes. If they think this is a "good idea" who knows how their brain works.

The silver lining here is that the captivity of Dolphins is being shut down. The is overdue, and I wish my own country Australia would get on board and consider this, as our New Zealand cousins have done this as well for a very long time now, and stop pretending to be worried about cetaceans when we keep them captive. Hell, it's actually a little embarrassing that such a crackpot idea can put others so far in front of our own thinking. It also shows that the Aussie Government is completely full of it when they claim to be concerned about whaling.

Whaling! No Way, but we can do what we want with Dolphins. That's OK.

And why are humans person but dolphins are not in your category? Because of what you mention, about dolphins killing for target practise? Aren't we just as wild animals as them, or even more? Use of technology is what separates us. If you have the eye to look underneath technology, to look at how we act and compare it to how dolphins act, then I think you should see why they're regarded as persons. I'd regard them as persons especially because of the target practise killing and any cruel things. They have the depth to do that to begin with, they have the capacity to think that way too.

The more time I spend with animals, the more I see them being persons. Much more refined than humans, we just say "oh how horrible, oooh" when they kill and eat each other, "look at the wild animals" but it's the epitome of hypocricy: you eat living things too to survive, like them. And you like it, like them. You like the taste, you like the process of eating, or can like it. A lot of humans still do hunting too, even if they didn't need to. I can understand the refusal to believe what you dont know, that's a very common thing, but this is a pretty obvious thing if you got the eye to see it.

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Were gonna have to have a dolphin police force i think. Cos just like humans some of them are thieving , kidnapping, raping, murdering b*******.

We have quite alot in common.

Baywatch reboot on Animal Planet?

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Marvellous.....let's elect a frickin' panda bear for president next!

I submit that absolutely nothing would change if that happened.

EDIT - Though I must admit the State of the Union address would be more interesting.

Edited by MysticStrummer
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thank goodness for India.that's good but i disagree all animals should be respected and etc.like rats all those experiments are just wrong

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And why are humans person but dolphins are not in your category?

Because they are wild animals, they are no more a person than a wolf is. In fact a wolf is probably more benevolent towards humankind.

Because of what you mention, about dolphins killing for target practise? Aren't we just as wild animals as them, or even more?

No, do you see groups of parents getting together and killing infants? Do you see pack rape as a normal part of every day life? Do you see species killing each other in the street for the hell of it? What you have done is try to say the worst that humankind has to offer and in the worst possible conditions - the remnants of wild animals that stay with some - is representative of the entire species?

Use of technology is what separates us.

Quite a bit more than that, I consider such a very narrow view.

If you have the eye to look underneath technology, to look at how we act and compare it to how dolphins act, then I think you should see why they're regarded as persons.

I think you are referring to imagination.

I'd regard them as persons especially because of the target practise killing and any cruel things. They have the depth to do that to begin with, they have the capacity to think that way too.

That means you have not much of an understanding of your own species.

The more time I spend with animals, the more I see them being persons.

Hippy crap does not cut the mustard. People often beautify Dolphins, they are just large wild animals with teeth. I reckon it's a bit weird and off putting to be frank.

Female dolphins who have recently given birth are not interested in mating, since they are spending their time and energy taking care of their new baby. Male dolphins know this…and have been known to kill baby dolphins so that the mother is more interested in mating with them.Baby dolphins, I’ll admit, can be cute. Killing a baby dolphin so that you can sleep with the grieving mom is not cute. While dolphins attacking and sometimes killing adult sharks to protect their babies is understandable, isn’t torturing and killing small animals a sign that you may become a sociopath? Like sharks, dolphins are efficient and brutal predators. I’ve never understood why people think that sharks are vicious but dolphins are cute when both have similar diets. Dolphins are, if anything, more clever in how they kill their prey.

Much more refined than humans, we just say "oh how horrible, oooh" when they kill and eat each other, "look at the wild animals" but it's the epitome of hypocricy: you eat living things too to survive, like them. And you like it, like them. You like the taste, you like the process of eating, or can like it. A lot of humans still do hunting too, even if they didn't need to. I can understand the refusal to believe what you dont know, that's a very common thing, but this is a pretty obvious thing if you got the eye to see it.

Refined? When they kill babies or rape any species within striking distance? I do not kill for fun, I do not hunt, and hunting is a dying sport. Lets face it, we have moved on, and continue to do so. What you express is personal emotional feelings, nothing to do with the reality of the situation. Dolphins have attacked people, Dolphins have raped people, yes people. It seems you are refusing to accept that Dolphins just are not people. Were you aware of humans being attacked and raped by Dolphins? Not heard of a person raping a Dolphin myself.

It's a dumb idea, and an embarrassingly idiotic ideal, but the silver lining means the parks will close, and that s good enough for me. If India want to call Dolphins persons I will chuckle at it, not much I can do about that, but I do not mind if this is what it takes to shut down the Dolphin Parks. I wish my country Australia would do the same, it is long overdue. Even if they do call them persons, it would be worth it. I do not mind looking a bit silly if we all benefit.

Edited by psyche101
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I'm sorry Psyche but you could be wrong they maybe predators but they are smarter than sharks and a growing number of people think that Dolphins and Orcas can feel what other animals intend to do, that's why they are smart because they think outside the box. Dogs are predators yet you dont seem to have a problem with that.

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some monkeys in Japan -that have a job serving sake- have rights as well as they only work 8 hrs per day, I don´t even have that right :(

are some beasts treated better than real humans? Ilike the idea they are respected, but come on... we´re forgetting of ourselves, we should go the same path together for good

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All life deserves respect, even humans, and I think we are capable of being the worst of the lot.

Edited by MJNYC
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Respect all life, I get that. But why pick one you like best? Especially if you pick it for reasons that do not reflect the truth.

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No, do you see groups of parents getting together and killing infants? Do you see pack rape as a normal part of every day life? Do you see species killing each other in the street for the hell of it? What you have done is try to say the worst that humankind has to offer and in the worst possible conditions - the remnants of wild animals that stay with some - is representative of the entire species?

You don't see all that happening among us, pack rapes and killing infants? Abortion clinics, birth control, what they do to unwanted babies in China for one, and what happens in South Africa, just to mention some. I bet there's a lot of things I dont know about. Those things however are committed by people more systematically, more like a habit instead of being exceptions.

What difference does a justification make when you kill someone against their will or rape them? You still do that.

I think you are referring to imagination.

You can think whatever you want and spout out opinions, but I've lived with animals and it's more a fact of life for me. It's no hippy crap, you just want to label it like that. I'm as far as it gets from a hippie when it comes to a lot of things, and if you think I'm just supporting this for some mindless reasons you're dead-wrong... I dont believe it's all in my head. You can believe what you will, I've seen your posts and you're a sceptic, and sceptics tend to have a more machine-like view on life, like "prove this, prove that, we are mere bio-electronic supercomputers, us humans". And you call me narrow-minded. I know a lot of sceptics ain't more or less like that, but you sound like that to me. And I find you insulting. Didn't your momma give you a good raising?

That means you have not much of an understanding of your own species.

More than you know, it seems.

Refined? When they kill babies or rape any species within striking distance? I do not kill for fun, I do not hunt, and hunting is a dying sport. Lets face it, we have moved on, and continue to do so. What you express is personal emotional feelings, nothing to do with the reality of the situation. Dolphins have attacked people, Dolphins have raped people, yes people. It seems you are refusing to accept that Dolphins just are not people. Were you aware of humans being attacked and raped by Dolphins? Not heard of a person raping a Dolphin myself.

Maybe you just have a very different way of thinking from me. You know you eat meat from animal that has probably died under horrible conditions. Does it make it any more right that you dont do it but someone else does it for you? Killing is an everyday thing to sustain meat-eating species, and plant-eating too if you consider plants have a conscience... I think they very well may have. You think it all just goes away because it's not in front of your eyes? With that logic, world leaders could order to kill a lot of people for no good reason and say it's okay because they aren't the ones doing the killing nor seeing it, just the ones who offer others the idea of doing that from their position. You can argue against me on these basic logical things with me, but that doesn't make them go away. You think this sounds like hippie talk? I think those are facts of life.

We're all narrow-minded in our ways, more or less, in varying degrees, but narrow-minded nonetheless. There's always something, because that's what makes us humans. We'd be only half the humans if we weren't like that. Because narrow-mindedness doesn't have to mean ignorance. If you're not ignorant but are narrow-minded, then you're still open, even if your view and way of thinking is narrow. If you see (or feel or hunch or get) your narrow-mindedness to some level, your personal restrictions and all, you can work with them and open them up a bit, and mold them. But if you insist on not even recognicing their true state, you dont know yourself so well, and that leads you to act against your nature. You feel one way but try to tell yourself you dont feel that way, and act like you wouldn't feel that way but some nasty feeling follows you and you dont know why. It's because you didn't dare face yourself and your own insecurity and uncertainty. How I know? Because I keep coming back to those situations. If you have nothing to struggle with, you'll devolve and grow weaker, and molding your narrow-minded ways of thinking is a struggle.

Hippy crap does not cut the mustard. People often beautify Dolphins, they are just large wild animals with teeth. I reckon it's a bit weird and off putting to be frank.

You think I'm saying this because I think dolphins are beautiful? I just explained why and you seem to ignore it and think whatever you will about me. So what if they have teeth and are large-bodied? If we were giants, or had large teeth, but were otherwise the same as we are now, you wouldn't consider us persons? Everyone's entitled to their opinions and no law prohibits you from saying them if you can hide your insults to make them fly under the radar like you do. I'll drop the ball with you because you seem to be more interested in making logical fallacies and insulting me for disagreeing with you, than making any point.

Edited by Mikko-kun
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You don't see all that happening among us, pack rapes and killing infants? Abortion clinics, birth control, what they do to unwanted babies in China for one, and what happens in South Africa, just to mention some. I bet there's a lot of things I dont know about. Those things however are committed by people more systematically, more like a habit instead of being exceptions.

What difference does a justification make when you kill someone against their will or rape them? You still do that.

No I don't see that I cannot remember walking down the street once in my life and witnessing such. I have read and heard about atrocities in the news, but this is where I find that Hippy in you. You do not seem to be able to distinguish that this is the worst humanity has to offer, ad we punish those who stoop so low. For a Dolphin, it's a normal way of life, no more outrageous than eating breakfast.

You can think whatever you want and spout out opinions, but I've lived with animals and it's more a fact of life for me. It's no hippy crap, you just want to label it like that. I'm as far as it gets from a hippie when it comes to a lot of things, and if you think I'm just supporting this for some mindless reasons you're dead-wrong... I dont believe it's all in my head. You can believe what you will, I've seen your posts and you're a sceptic, and sceptics tend to have a more machine-like view on life, like "prove this, prove that, we are mere bio-electronic supercomputers, us humans". And you call me narrow-minded. I know a lot of sceptics ain't more or less like that, but you sound like that to me. And I find you insulting. Didn't your momma give you a good raising?

Well that is the point of a discussion forum - sharing opinions is it not?

If it is not hippy crap, then why is it not supported by science? It is not like man has not been trying to communicate with animals since man dissected linguistics, and many good minds have laboured over this conundrum, we have looked at ourselves and managed to drill right down to the FOXP2 gene that allows us speech. It's not like we are complete dummies throwing darts at a board, decades of study have resulted in the understanding that we are separate from every other species in that we manipulate the environment around us, we do not adapt to the environment, and we have structured language. Quite frankly, I fail to see how you feel your experience with animals trumps this mighty long term effort and as you know I am a skeptic, would it not have been appropriate to at least provide some reasoning as to why you think the Dolphins are "persons"? Do you know what the dictionary definition of person is?

noun (plural people or persons)

  • 1a human being regarded as an individual:the porter was the last person to see her prior to her disappearanceshe is a person of astonishing energy
  • 2 Grammar a category used in the classification of pronouns, possessive determiners, and verb forms, according to whether they indicate the speaker (first person), the addressee (second person), or a third party (third person).

  • 3 Christian Theology each of the three modes of being of God, namely the Father, the Son, or the Holy Ghost, who together constitute the Trinity.

Fair go, I just do not see Dolphin fitting into any category there. Is it narrow minded to be correct by definition? You are easily insulted, and you approached me, I am not sure what your intention was knowing I am a skeptic, yet you offer me your feelings as to why science has to rethink animal classifications. Lets be frank, just what were you expecting?

My mother was decidedly poor and she divorced when I was quite young, we lived in Life Line houses, my mother did not have much time for us as she worked a lot. I mostly raised myself (and my little sister), and one thing I have learned is I do not like people trying to take advantage of me. I expect the truth wherever it is viable. Thanks for asking, that was nasty of you.

I consider myself pretty successful today with a great education. I am proud of where my thinking has taken me. I reckon it did me OK. I am nobody's fool and I intend to keep it that way thanks.

More than you know, it seems.

I really do not think so. You do not seem to take into account that man is the only animal that every repaired the damage he did, or attempts to. Do you think T Rex woud have cared if it ate an animal into extinction? Do you think a Lion today would care if it ate Antelopes to extinction, or for that matter, do you think Dolphins would care if they hunted Porpoises to extinction for the sake of target practise? The California Condor is here today because man cares, so is the Arabian Humpback, so are too many species to mention. Man fights man to protect the environment, man is overcoming capitalist tendencies bred into us as a need to conquer to become top predator like all species. Conservationists are recognised in society as important people, groups raise funds to assist animal welfare, you seem to be missing a big hunk oh humanity from your life that is goodness. We have bad, but we have good too. And we can distinguish between the two.

Maybe you just have a very different way of thinking from me. You know you eat meat from animal that has probably died under horrible conditions. Does it make it any more right that you dont do it but someone else does it for you? Killing is an everyday thing to sustain meat-eating species, and plant-eating too if you consider plants have a conscience... I think they very well may have. You think it all just goes away because it's not in front of your eyes? With that logic, world leaders could order to kill a lot of people for no good reason and say it's okay because they aren't the ones doing the killing nor seeing it, just the ones who offer others the idea of doing that from their position. You can argue against me on these basic logical things with me, but that doesn't make them go away. You think this sounds like hippie talk? I think those are facts of life.

I do not eat meat that has been hunted down to exhaustion and then ripped apart whilst still alive and in terror, not that I am aware of. I eat farmed meat, when my mother remarried I was about 8 or 9, and we moved out west and I grew up on a farm. Could not be much more in front if my eyes, I know what it is like to cut the liver free from a cow or sheep carcass and harvest the organs for consumption as well as the meat, not that I can stand offal myself. Doe the chickens behead pluck and gut too. I know the process and have been part of it as we used to butcher our own meat. The animals that normally woud be taken by nature at an early age live longer creating an excess that we may partake of so that the balance is not disrupted. We all have to eat, so this seems a sensible solution to maintain a balance, and give everyone a fair go. I'd like to see all meat farmed, and more wildlife sanctuaries with total bans on hunting and fishing in these areas.

No I do not consider plants to have a conscience, I am aware of some of the interesting work that indicates responses to certain stimuli, and I admit it is intriguing, but I think we have a way to go to still yet understand what it is we are seeing.

What exactly are you proposing, that we should consider not eating plants or animals?

We're all narrow-minded in our ways, more or less, in varying degrees, but narrow-minded nonetheless. There's always something, because that's what makes us humans. We'd be only half the humans if we weren't like that. Because narrow-mindedness doesn't have to mean ignorance. If you're not ignorant but are narrow-minded, then you're still open, even if your view and way of thinking is narrow. If you see (or feel or hunch or get) your narrow-mindedness to some level, your personal restrictions and all, you can work with them and open them up a bit, and mold them. But if you insist on not even recognicing their true state, you dont know yourself so well, and that leads you to act against your nature. You feel one way but try to tell yourself you dont feel that way, and act like you wouldn't feel that way but some nasty feeling follows you and you dont know why. It's because you didn't dare face yourself and your own insecurity and uncertainty. How I know? Because I keep coming back to those situations. If you have nothing to struggle with, you'll devolve and grow weaker, and molding your narrow-minded ways of thinking is a struggle.

One can "feel", "hunch" or express some other for of intuitive ability but lets face it we are all the same basically. What we do all have is imagination, and that does influence a great many of us. It would be just kidding ones self to say otherwise. We convinced ourselves of Gods, many of them, Afterlife, Martians, heck, we just make stuff up as we go along stroking goatee beards looking at the sky. It's not fact. I can only trust fact. I can listen, I can wonder, but I have been on this earth for over half my life now, the wonder of many things is no longer there. I have been hungry for learning all my life, it's why I come here, what so many see as brand new is old hat to me. You can consider that narrow minded but I would chalk up considerable experience to factor into that equation as well.

You think I'm saying this because I think dolphins are beautiful? I just explained why and you seem to ignore it and think whatever you will about me. So what if they have teeth and are large-bodied? If we were giants, or had large teeth, but were otherwise the same as we are now, you wouldn't consider us persons? Everyone's entitled to their opinions and no law prohibits you from saying them if you can hide your insults to make them fly under the radar like you do. I'll drop the ball with you because you seem to be more interested in making logical fallacies and insulting me for disagreeing with you, than making any point.

I think you have an unrealistic ideal of Dolphins and I do not think you put much thought into the ideal of personification. Your posts reeks if idealistic new age proposals that seem pretty far fetched to me. All you have offered is that you work with animals and that has had a personal impact. As I already pointed out, you approached me, not the other way around, and I cannot help it is you do not like the response you received, but seriously, I have no idea what your expectations were.

Regardless of your hurt feelings, one thing we do agree on is the closure of the parks is a plus no matter how it eventuated.

So what f they are large bodies with sharp teeth? Really?

"They're big, wild animals," said Dr. Andrew J. Read, a biologist at the Duke University Marine Laboratory who studies dolphin attacks. "And people should respect them as such."

LINK

Edited by psyche101
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No I don't see that I cannot remember walking down the street once in my life and witnessing such. I have read and heard about atrocities in the news, but this is where I find that Hippy in you. You do not seem to be able to distinguish that this is the worst humanity has to offer, ad we punish those who stoop so low. For a Dolphin, it's a normal way of life, no more outrageous than eating breakfast.

You're right in that humanity may be more capable to act decently than dolphins, but to say we were always like that, no... in so many places, a lot of atrocities done. Slavery was a common thing only two hundred years ago or so. In many armies in the world you get "toughened up" with a beating or such for moot reasons. Before that... I dont know the real everyday life's history so well from the medieval ages or before on that perspective, but history's full of wars and all that. It's not everyday occurrence, but it might be us repressing some violent side of ourselves. Doesn't make sense that one person would have the power to lead a nation to war, no matter how you think it. Because people have a mind of their own... it shouldn't happen, if what you say is true.

And you can give anything a justification. No matter what it is, you can say "it's for a higher cause" and it might be a lot of times. But you still "break the eggs" in the process, do the same things other animals do in the process. We're disciplined ourselves, and learned new habits. Animals can do that too, look at the circus animals. We do it under pressure, because if we acted uncivilized, no one would take you to a job. Try to say "UGU UGU" while arriving naked to your job interview, I bet that'll go well. It's because we repress those sides of ourselves that there's all kinds of pressure we feel. I dont say raping would be in our nature, but having sex and killing things is, just like with all other animals. Also "being ourselves" is a part of our nature, like with other animals. I think we're not so different from animals apart from having learned more. The capacity for learning may be heightened, but saying how much heightened is a matter of opinions, relative.

Well that is the point of a discussion forum - sharing opinions is it not?

If it is not hippy crap, then why is it not supported by science? It is not like man has not been trying to communicate with animals since man dissected linguistics, and many good minds have laboured over this conundrum, we have looked at ourselves and managed to drill right down to the FOXP2 gene that allows us speech. It's not like we are complete dummies throwing darts at a board, decades of study have resulted in the understanding that we are separate from every other species in that we manipulate the environment around us, we do not adapt to the environment, and we have structured language. Quite frankly, I fail to see how you feel your experience with animals trumps this mighty long term effort and as you know I am a skeptic, would it not have been appropriate to at least provide some reasoning as to why you think the Dolphins are "persons"? Do you know what the dictionary definition of person is?

Beavers build dams. A lot of animals build nests. Monkeys use tools. Granted, they dont seem very developed. Sorry for my bad tone.. I just dont look at it only from the logical perspective... my main point is dolphins are like a lot of other animals, including us, in that they react to things in different, varying ways. I've seen rats, cats and dogs show affection, happiness, support, shyness, wariness (being wary, I'm not a native speaker sorry), playfulness, frustration, anger, depression, kindness even, a lot of emotions. They also are intelligent, even if they struggle against us which shouldn't have to be the case. They can work around problems (my pet rat opening a human-size door for example, dogs do the same). Their lifespan is shorter than ours, we're blessed with more longevity than most animals in this world as well as great motoric and thinking skills so in that we're pretty exceptional. But that's more a thing of survival and technology... I dont think being able to be technological is what makes you a person... I mean if you come across a human who's very very bad at math, physics and such, then would you say that human is less a person?

I'm not really expecting anything from you, maybe only that you just think my words and then let it be if it doesn't ring a bell, because this is as good as I can put it. Logic is only one form of thinking, emotions are another. Emotions are not governed by logic for a major part of living beings.

As for the dictionary meaning of the word "person" or "people"... language changes all the time. It's not an one-time change but new words come to play, and words get slightly different meanings depending on who you talk with. Sometimes changes are major. It's best to agree to disagree in cases where you dont see eye-to-eye when it's about world-views.

My mother was decidedly poor and she divorced when I was quite young, we lived in Life Line houses, my mother did not have much time for us as she worked a lot. I mostly raised myself (and my little sister), and one thing I have learned is I do not like people trying to take advantage of me. I expect the truth wherever it is viable. Thanks for asking, that was nasty of you.

I consider myself pretty successful today with a great education. I am proud of where my thinking has taken me. I reckon it did me OK. I am nobody's fool and I intend to keep it that way thanks.

Trust me, you haven't seen my nasty side yet... you're a master of yourself like all of us, I dont expect anything else. Good for you if you're happy with your life.

I really do not think so. You do not seem to take into account that man is the only animal that every repaired the damage he did, or attempts to. Do you think T Rex woud have cared if it ate an animal into extinction? Do you think a Lion today would care if it ate Antelopes to extinction, or for that matter, do you think Dolphins would care if they hunted Porpoises to extinction for the sake of target practise? The California Condor is here today because man cares, so is the Arabian Humpback, so are too many species to mention. Man fights man to protect the environment, man is overcoming capitalist tendencies bred into us as a need to conquer to become top predator like all species. Conservationists are recognised in society as important people, groups raise funds to assist animal welfare, you seem to be missing a big hunk oh humanity from your life that is goodness. We have bad, but we have good too. And we can distinguish between the two.

Animals too can learn conceptions, if you give them time... it's just that we dont have much time with most animals due to their shorter lifespans and due to their learning being slower than ours. I dont expect all the animals to learn conceptions, their capacity to learn is varying on many things, not only because of themselves. And humans repairing the damage we did... landfills, junkyards, the pacific plastic ocean? Nuclear wastes? And China holding onto it's coal factories. I think you're right, but it's just a matter of time. I've seen rats taught to poop only on a certain spot, taught with gentle means. We're also taught a lot of things, it's because we're taught too that we learn. The teaching for humans has been developed more than teaching for other animals, for obvious reasons. But I say this because I think the same potential exists in them, even if their potential might not be as strong as ours, not equal in all aspects.

I do not eat meat that has been hunted down to exhaustion and then ripped apart whilst still alive and in terror, not that I am aware of. I eat farmed meat, when my mother remarried I was about 8 or 9, and we moved out west and I grew up on a farm. Could not be much more in front if my eyes, I know what it is like to cut the liver free from a cow or sheep carcass and harvest the organs for consumption as well as the meat, not that I can stand offal myself. Doe the chickens behead pluck and gut too. I know the process and have been part of it as we used to butcher our own meat. The animals that normally woud be taken by nature at an early age live longer creating an excess that we may partake of so that the balance is not disrupted. We all have to eat, so this seems a sensible solution to maintain a balance, and give everyone a fair go. I'd like to see all meat farmed, and more wildlife sanctuaries with total bans on hunting and fishing in these areas.

No I do not consider plants to have a conscience, I am aware of some of the interesting work that indicates responses to certain stimuli, and I admit it is intriguing, but I think we have a way to go to still yet understand what it is we are seeing.

What exactly are you proposing, that we should consider not eating plants or animals?

To revolutionize the way we treat a lot of the animals we eat, and plants too. Rid of monoculture, toxins and industrial farming. I'm not expecting everyone in the world to adopt this (who would?), but we could start to try let nature live more on it's own terms instead of keeping it confined and poisoned the way we do in many cases around the world. I know this is all on the idealistic level, the practical level of it is permaculture for one and lets not derail this into that. :)

One can "feel", "hunch" or express some other for of intuitive ability but lets face it we are all the same basically. What we do all have is imagination, and that does influence a great many of us. It would be just kidding ones self to say otherwise. We convinced ourselves of Gods, many of them, Afterlife, Martians, heck, we just make stuff up as we go along stroking goatee beards looking at the sky. It's not fact. I can only trust fact. I can listen, I can wonder, but I have been on this earth for over half my life now, the wonder of many things is no longer there. I have been hungry for learning all my life, it's why I come here, what so many see as brand new is old hat to me. You can consider that narrow minded but I would chalk up considerable experience to factor into that equation as well.

You can think however you want, dont let anyone stop you. What you refer in my posts as imagination, is something I've observed through life. But it's not the surface observations but what's the drives behind them that I pick up. I may pick up something that's not there at times, and that why I dont usually say things as if they were facts unless I'm sure or unless I know it's with someone who doesn't get all hung-up about that. If you want to learn new things, sometimes you scrap the old conceptions in order to do so. That's been the red line I've followed. But each to their own.

I think you have an unrealistic ideal of Dolphins and I do not think you put much thought into the ideal of personification. Your posts reeks if idealistic new age proposals that seem pretty far fetched to me. All you have offered is that you work with animals and that has had a personal impact. As I already pointed out, you approached me, not the other way around, and I cannot help it is you do not like the response you received, but seriously, I have no idea what your expectations were.

Regardless of your hurt feelings, one thing we do agree on is the closure of the parks is a plus no matter how it eventuated.

So what f they are large bodies with sharp teeth? Really?

"They're big, wild animals," said Dr. Andrew J. Read, a biologist at the Duke University Marine Laboratory who studies dolphin attacks. "And people should respect them as such."

LINK

I've been almost killed by a human being. But I dont consider that human less than a person because of that. But, each to their own. If I see a madman saying "IM ARCHANGEL MICHAEL AND I RAIN LAZER BEANS FROM MY EYES" I dont go debate with him. Actually saw a guy like that on a bus you know... gotta say you're more pleasant company than him. But yeah, conclusion. Gotta love different opinions?

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It really is a difficult topic. Just because an animal may be top of the inteligence list, does that automatically mean the animals below it should suffer? It is not surprising to see divided opinion.

I'm happy to see this extra bit of protection towards cetaceans, however your point is valid.

Law professor and moral philosopher Gary Francione addresses this discrepancy.

"If we took seriously the principle that it was wrong to inflict unnecessary suffering on non-humans, we would stop altogether bringing domestic animals into existence for human use, and our recognition of the moral status of animals would not depend on whether a parrot can understand mathematics or a dog recognise herself in a mirror. We would take seriously what Jeremy Bentham said over 200 years ago: “The question is not, can they reason, nor can they talk, but can they suffer?”"

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If we took seriously the principle that it was wrong to inflict unnecessary suffering on non-humans,

Problem he points out.

we would stop altogether bringing domestic animals into existence for human use

Solution he offers.

Separate problems and solutions. Why does it have to lead to that? Why not just consider all animals be sentient and persons and still eat them? If you recognice the problem as a problem of eating persons, then why not instead be more lenient on cannibalism, or at least recognice it as a lesser evil than what it's been portrayed as? If you think of it, it's very different to torture a human being and frighten them and all that and then eat them, than to ask their permission and wait till they're dead and be very polite and all about it. I think the native americans were wiser of this than many of us, by simply respecting their prey. We die anyhow, so does it have to go in vain? If we stop eating animals, think of all the meat we'd waste and all the plants that'd die because we'd replace the meat we eat with veggies. And if you stay fit, wouldn't it be a sort of recognition that your meat would be accepted or more revered?

It's the living that feel pain, not dead. So make death as painless as possible and life as good as possible.

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Why does it have to lead to that? Why not just consider all animals be sentient and persons and still eat them?

Because it's unnecessary and causes harm; this is the definition of cruelty.

If you recognice the problem as a problem of eating persons, then why not instead be more lenient on cannibalism, or at least recognice it as a lesser evil than what it's been portrayed as?

Again, eating humans is also unnecessary.

If you think of it, it's very different to torture a human being and frighten them and all that and then eat them, than to ask their permission and wait till they're dead and be very polite and all about it. I think the native americans were wiser of this than many of us, by simply respecting their prey.

Are you saying wait til they die of natural causes, then eat them? I don't see a problem with that as no harm is done. But do you know anyone who practices this kind of animal husbandry?

It's the living that feel pain, not dead. So make death as painless as possible and life as good as possible.

Whenever you propose a "should", put yourself in that position. How would you like it if it happened to you?

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I can't really refute anything you say except the last part, because I just see things that way. As for your last question yes, it's been on my mind on more than one occasion that I'd prefer to be consumed if I had a premature death. So I'd prefer it, I'd prefer to be eaten and my body used, it'd be good to know someone can appreciate a good meal and get their stomach full with what I leave behind. Meat of aged animals tends to be less tender so we dont usually wait till the natural death. Of course you could try that diet, I wouldn't know how well it worked. If you could develop some tastier foods out of meat of animals who died natural deaths and lived old, from that less tender meat, it could make it possible for us to do agriculture with far higher moral standards.

But living to see the old age.. I think it's a matter of opinion how important you regard that. I just consider all the ailments and limitations that come with the age: your body getting weaker and all that. Eventually your thinking might deteriorate too. It's more a matter of opinion I think, but I wouldn't mind putting my life at risk if the option was to endure years of that. And the big if, but if we come back here again after death, then it'd be more of a favor in a lots of senses to not prolong death when you get too weak.

But I dont think there's one right solution as long as there's these big if's, not one right solution fitting for everyone. It's your life so why not give a choise?

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As for your last question yes, it's been on my mind on more than one occasion that I'd prefer to be consumed if I had a premature death. So I'd prefer it, I'd prefer to be eaten and my body used, it'd be good to know someone can appreciate a good meal and get their stomach full with what I leave behind.

Ok, that's fine, I thought you meant killing animals for food. Anyways, back to the OP.

Two more Beluga wales died in Marineland.

Wiki has a record of the atrocities at this place, which the government has whitewashed.

Here's a useful database of cetaceans in captivity.

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Ok, that's fine, I thought you meant killing animals for food. Anyways, back to the OP.

I didn't really outrule it, but I dont think we have a need to kill any infant animals for food, could at least wait till they're grown-up. Talking about broilers. I would have problem with someone killing me, I expect every living thing have a problem with that, not just animals. That's another thing I guess is more a matter of what you think about the world, opinions and all that. Everybody wants to survive and no one wants to die too early... I think plants too want to survive, because they face the sun and can have a healthier grow when there's good-mooded people around them than ones with bad or depressing mood, but that's also something that might be more an opinional thing. I just still think it's better to not shy away from eating living things, because of those things. And you know, if somebody wants to eat me before it's my time and comes for me and gets me down, then that's that. Not much I can do past that point. Survival isn't only about staying alive, but living a life that's more worth living, even if it's at the expense of others... just the art of living in the balance and minimizing the oppression and all that.

If nobody ate no one, everyone wouldn't know how sweet a meal can be. Then everyone would be worse off in that sense. And death is only one-time thing. It can be unsettling when it comes to you, but I dont think it's death that we need to fear as much as a life we didn't live well.

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Humans number over six billion and live on a 2D plane. Many whale species number in the thousands and live in 3D space. Every whale is an individual. The humanists need to learn how to make some room already. Meanwhile those people who show little more than contempt for oceanic life will run dolphin species into the ground too like everything else in the sea if good people sit idly by and let them. Even a humanist should agree from a moralistic and philosophical standpoint because the future of mankind deserves more than jellyfish salad.

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There's a new documentary on Seaworld coming out in July called Blackfish. What started out as an investigation into the multiple human deaths there turned into an expose on the harm caused to the cetaceans.

Here's the trailer.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_0rOdwfIXw[/media]

Why are humans so willing to pay to see dancing bears and such, it's so barbaric.

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We have the technology to observe these whales in their natural environment. I hope some day that will be enough but it's not good enough to make money or sell tickets. Dancing bears remind me of Mrs. Romney's walking horses. It's a shame there's money to be exchanged for animals engaging in unnatural behavior (stupid human tricks).

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We have the technology to observe these whales in their natural environment. I hope some day that will be enough but it's not good enough to make money or sell tickets.

True.

“Whenever people say, 'We mustn't be sentimental,' you can take it they are about to do something cruel. And if they add, 'We must be realistic,' they mean they are going to make money out of it.” ― Brigid Brophy

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