The Sphinx head - Is it the original?

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

Anyway, there seems a presumption by fringe that the causway had, for whatever reason, esthetics, religious etc, to strike out from the centre of the baseline of the pyramid at a 90' angle. It seems the logical thing to do, the "neat and tidy" thing to do, something that we would do. But AE were not allways so neat and tidy, look at the layout of Karnak, which is not so "perfect" for reasons that AE know and we do not, or at least to my knowledge. Besides, a straight line drawn from centre of pyramid base passes by the left side of Sphinx with more room to spare than what actually exists on the right side. And yes, I am aware of the geology etc to the left side of Sphinx. As is said in posts above, it is very clear that the causeway and Sphinx are part of a plan that put them in the positions they are in, it is not rocket science to see this.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Tutankhaten-pasheri

[docyabut2]

Ok help me to understand, your saying the Khafe builders built Krafe`s pyramid frist, then dug a quarry around the sphinx and used the rocks to make the temples , then carved out the sphinx in krafe`s image and then made the causeway at a angle over the quarry to connect them both, but what is the proof that the temples and again:) the carved out sphinx were not already there:):)

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

Ok help me to understand, your saying the Khafe builders built Krafe`s pyramid frist, then dug a quarry around the sphinx and used the rocks to make the temples , then carved out the sphinx in krafe`s image and then made the causeway at a angle over the quarry to connect them both, but what is the proof that the temples and again:) the carved out sphinx were not already there:) :)

This has already been laid out countless times, good links to information from experts have been posted, countless books written by experts. Without insults, I no longer waste my time on this site going around in circles trying to proove anything to those who provide no real proof of their own, and are seemingly unwilling to believe experts, Mark Lehner for example, who have spent decades doing research on the ground. It is for fringe to knockdown reality, reality has provided plenty of evidence, so knock this down with your evidence.....

[aquatus1]

Ok help me to understand,

You do acknowledge that your sincerity is in question, right?

You do understand that I, at least, am not convinced that you are truly interested in understanding, particularly with your continued overuse of smilies?

your saying the Khafe builders built Krafe`s pyramid frist,

Yes. Rather, I trust the Egyptologists in general who have come to a consensus over this, and Kmt_sesh specifically, who has shown time and time again to have both a deep understanding and a genuine love for the field of Egyptology.

then dug a quarry around the sphinx and used the rocks to make the temples ,

No. The Sphynx presumably did not exist at this time, and was merely an outcropping of rock to the far end of Khufu's quarry. The rock for the temple, to my understanding, came mostly from the quarry proper, way over towards the Khufu side of the quarry, not from the carving of the Sphynx (I am not 100% on that, though). The Sphynx was carved at the far end because it occurred to someone that the outcropping would make a pretty kicking statue, but it is unlikely that this occurred until much later.

then carved out the sphinx in krafe`s image

No idea who's face is on the Sphynx, or if Khafre's guys did the carving. Maybe Kmt knows, but if he does, I doubt it is because he recognizes the face. Egyptians didn't go for realism in their art. All of their leaders were runway models, as far as they were concerned. Telling one Egyptian face from another is something for the experts to figure out.

and then made the causeway at a angle over the quarry to connect them both,

No. The causeway was already there.

but what is the proof that the temples and again:) the carved out sphinx were not already there:) :)

The carving of the Sphynx was moving along nicely until someone realized that they had run out of space on the Sphynx's right side. They couldn't carve further into the wall on the tail end because if they did, they would undermine the causeway and it would collapse into the Sphynx enclosure. But they couldn't just carve the wall perpendicular because not only would it look terribly out of proportion, it would also cast a shadow on the Sphynx, making it look kinda creepy (I got the opportunity, in my youth, to see the testing of the light system for the little show they have. Lit up from only one side...the Sphynx looks pretty freaky).

The only option the Sphynx builders had was to carve the wall away as much as they could without endangering the causeway. That is why the wall is angled; it is angled because the obstacle that was limiting the builders was the angled causeway on top. Had the causeway not been there, the builders would have simply carved the wall out regularly and made a nice symmetrical enclosure to frame their huge Sphynx, instead of the shoe-horned angled wall we see today. There is no other reason why the angled wall would exist otherwise. The builders of the causeway did not need an angled wall to build on; they could have just as easily angled it a few degrees more and missed the Sphynx enclosure entirely, or more like, they would have run their causeway along the edge of the perpendicular enclosure to get the best view of the Sphynx. As it stands, the best view they get right now is a good look at the cat's rump, which I am pretty sure wasn't the end the Egyptians worshipped.

[docyabut2]

You do acknowledge that your sincerity is in question, right?

You do understand that I, at least, am not convinced that you are truly interested in understanding, particularly with your continued overuse of smilies?

Yes. Rather, I trust the Egyptologists in general who have come to a consensus over this, and Kmt_sesh specifically, who has shown time and time again to have both a deep understanding and a genuine love for the field of Egyptology.

No. The Sphynx presumably did not exist at this time, and was merely an outcropping of rock to the far end of Khufu's quarry. The rock for the temple, to my understanding, came mostly from the quarry proper, way over towards the Khufu side of the quarry, not from the carving of the Sphynx (I am not 100% on that, though). The Sphynx was carved at the far end because it occurred to someone that the outcropping would make a pretty kicking statue, but it is unlikely that this occurred until much later.

No idea who's face is on the Sphynx, or if Khafre's guys did the carving. Maybe Kmt knows, but if he does, I doubt it is because he recognizes the face. Egyptians didn't go for realism in their art. All of their leaders were runway models, as far as they were concerned. Telling one Egyptian face from another is something for the experts to figure out.

No. The causeway was already there.

The carving of the Sphynx was moving along nicely until someone realized that they had run out of space on the Sphynx's right side. They couldn't carve further into the wall on the tail end because if they did, they would undermine the causeway and it would collapse into the Sphynx enclosure. But they couldn't just carve the wall perpendicular because not only would it look terribly out of proportion, it would also cast a shadow on the Sphynx, making it look kinda creepy (I got the opportunity, in my youth, to see the testing of the light system for the little show they have. Lit up from only one side...the Sphynx looks pretty freaky).

The only option the Sphynx builders had was to carve the wall away as much as they could without endangering the causeway. That is why the wall is angled; it is angled because the obstacle that was limiting the builders was the angled causeway on top. Had the causeway not been there, the builders would have simply carved the wall out regularly and made a nice symmetrical enclosure to frame their huge Sphynx, instead of the shoe-horned angled wall we see today. There is no other reason why the angled wall would exist otherwise. The builders of the causeway did not need an angled wall to build on; they could have just as easily angled it a few degrees more and missed the Sphynx enclosure entirely, or more like, they would have run their causeway along the edge of the perpendicular enclosure to get the best view of the Sphynx. As it stands, the best view they get right now is a good look at the cat's rump, which I am pretty sure wasn't the end the Egyptians worshipped.

Aquatus I` am sincere, even though I added the smiles cause I don`nt want anyone all mad at me for my questions:) Now you saying that Khrafe`s pryamid was made frist ,then the cause way and the temples like in this picture, only at a angle to avoid the rock cropping, but what is to say that rock cropping of the lelf over quarry of khufu`s was not already carved into the image of the Sphinx?

[laver]

It might be that the strange angle is just a clue, an ancient clue that it is all about angles. It is the angle of the Great Pyramid that is so important, its seked or height to base ratio which with its location and the angles to other sites over great distances is the secret meaning in the construction of a Great Design. It was clearly meant to be found at some time in the future and an odd angled layout may be meant to direct us to look at the angles to work out the mystery.

[aquatus1]

Aquatus I` am sincere, even though I added the smiles cause I don`nt want anyone all mad at me for my questions:)

The smilies don't help when your questions don't reflect what is being said. There is a limit to how much you can misunderstand.

Now you saying that Khrafe`s pryamid was made frist ,then the cause way and the temples like in this picture,

Yes.

only at a angle to avoid the rock cropping,

No. At an angle to avoid Khufu's quarry. They also angled it far enough away so that they wouldn't have to carve away the rock outcropping, and so they wouldn't be looking over a quarry every time they used the causeway, but that was for aesthetics, not because of engineering.

but what is to say that rock cropping of the lelf over quarry of khufu`s was not already carved into the image of the Sphinx?

That has already been answered. Multiple times. Repeating yourself does not, in any way, shape, or form, affect the answer that has been given. If you do not understand the answer, then ask for clarification about the answer given. If you refuse to acknowledge the answer, that is your concern and yours alone, but it is the primary reason why your sincerity is in question.

[aquatus1]

It might be that the strange angle is just a clue, an ancient clue that it is all about angles. It is the angle of the Great Pyramid that is so important, its seked or height to base ratio which with its location and the angles to other sites over great distances is the secret meaning in the construction of a Great Design. It was clearly meant to be found at some time in the future and an odd angled layout may be meant to direct us to look at the angles to work out the mystery.

Why would you assume the Egyptians did something like this?

What in their entire history hints that they were the kind of people to indulge in this sort of exercise?

[laver]

Why would you assume the Egyptians did something like this?

What in their entire history hints that they were the kind of people to indulge in this sort of exercise?

That is the whole point. The 'entire history' of the Egyptians does not explain how such an amazingly talented culture came into being so quickly. Where did this skill and knowledge come from ? It was happening at other places in the world at about the same time....

[aquatus1]

That is the whole point. The 'entire history' of the Egyptians does not explain how such an amazingly talented culture came into being so quickly. Where did this skill and knowledge come from ? It was happening at other places in the world at about the same time....

How does it not? We have a clear timeline of Egyptian engineering, progressively going from simple to complex, stretching all the way back from the first mastabas to the Bent Pyramid, to the great pyramids, with plenty of example salong the way. More importantly, we have the ancient complexes that display their skills far more magnificently than any simple pyramid does. The Temple Of Karnac is much, much, more impressive than the Great Pyramid at Giza, in terms of pure engineering.

And while it was likely happening in other places around the world at the time, remember that it was also happeneing all around the world at all different times in history. Masonry technology has been discovered and re-discovered time and time again by all sorts of cultures all throughout time.

In other words, it ain't that hard to figure out.

[docyabut2]

The smilies don't help when your questions don't reflect what is being said. There is a limit to how much you can misunderstand.

Yes.

No. At an angle to avoid Khufu's quarry. They also angled it far enough away so that they wouldn't have to carve away the rock outcropping, and so they wouldn't be looking over a quarry every time they used the causeway, but that was for aesthetics, not because of engineering.

That has already been answered. Multiple times. Repeating yourself does not, in any way, shape, or form, affect the answer that has been given. If you do not understand the answer, then ask for clarification about the answer given. If you refuse to acknowledge the answer, that is your concern and yours alone, but it is the primary reason why your sincerity is in question.

Sorry but I don`nt see any thing wrong in my repeated questions of the sphinx being there before khafe`s buildings.

[Harte]

Because you refuse to look.

Harte

[jaylemurph]

There is a limit to how much you can misunderstand.

Hmmm. Sorry, sir. If my time here has taught me any one thing, it's that statement is completely untrue.

EDIT: The general second person "you", not you specifically, aquatus.

--Jaylemurph

Edited June 26, 2013 by jaylemurph

[cormac mac airt]

That is the whole point. The 'entire history' of the Egyptians does not explain how such an amazingly talented culture came into being so quickly. Where did this skill and knowledge come from ? It was happening at other places in the world at about the same time....

"Came into being so quickly" by whose estimation? The Ancient Egyptians were making mastabas, the precursors of pyramids, from late predynastic times. Which means they had 600+ years of experience under their belt in construction technologies/techniques. That's hardly "so quickly".

cormac

[aquatus1]

Hmmm. Sorry, sir. If my time here has taught me any one thing, it's that statement is completely untrue.

I...admit to letting my unfounded expectations color the reality in front of me.

[aquatus1]

Sorry but I don`nt see any thing wrong in my repeated questions of the sphinx being there before khafe`s buildings.

What is wrong is the refusal to acknowledge the responses given to you and ignoring the questions asked of you.

Edited June 26, 2013 by aquatus1

[docyabut2]

If this picture is correct ,the cause way was built at angle over a quarry formation, the same quarry formation to the right, the blocks were taken out to build kharfe`s temples,however even further over to the right that formation was the Sphinx`s but what to say that formation was not already carved as a sphinx ?

http://www.aeraweb.org/sphinx-project/khafres-monuments/

[cormac mac airt]

If this picture is correct ,the cause way was built at angle over a quarry formation, the same quarry formation to the right, the blocks were taken out to build kharfe`s temples,however even further over to the right that formation was the Sphinx`s but what to say that formation was not already carved as a sphinx ?

http://www.aeraweb.o...fres-monuments/

The limestone used to build Khafre's temple, which is in front of the Sphinx, was taken out of the Sphinx Enclosure and not Khufu's quarry. Which means that until Khafre's temple was complete, which was after Khafre's pyramid, the only thing that would be noticed as a future part of the Sphinx would have been a nob of limestone which would eventually become the head.

cormac

[kmt_sesh]

Sorry but I don`nt see any thing wrong in my repeated questions of the sphinx being there before khafe`s buildings.

I have to admit, I understand aquatus1's frustration. I share it. As aquatus1 mentioned earlier, several of us have provided answers yet you continue to ask the exact same questions—as though in expectation that our answers will change. Several times now I have posted links to the research conclusions of the Giza Plateau Mapping Project, but it seems clear to me you haven't perused any of their web pages.

I've already read their entire site, so I'm not posting the links for my own benefit. Mind you, their conclusions are based on diligent scientific and archaeological investigations which span many years. Were you to read the web pages carefully, most if not all of the questions you've asked would've been answered for you.

But you keep asking the same questions. Hence our frustration.

[born2run]

Nope, what is up there now , was not the "original", suposedly, but not being an "expert' in all things made in Egypt, I had read somehwere, no idea where, that the original head was that modeled after that of an African male lion. Yeah, I know but since I wasn''t around when the darn thing was created, I can only go by what I read and hope the authors have some degree of 'honesty' in their presentation.

[aquatus1]

Look, Docyabut2, let's break it down, in regards to Khafre's pyramid, Khafre's temple, the causeway, the Sphynx enclosure (the box or "quarry" the Sphynx statue is in) and th Sphynx itself:

• Do you agree that the Khafre pyramid was built first?
  
• Do you agree that the Khafre temple was built after the pyramid?
  

Let's just nail down the answer to those two questions for now. Don't worry about the causeway, the Sphynx enclosure, or the Sphynx yet. Do you agree to the above two points?

[aquatus1]

Yeah, I know but since I wasn''t around when the darn thing was created, I can only go by what I read and hope the authors have some degree of 'honesty' in their presentation.

You can do a heck of a lot more than just "hope".

[docyabut2]

Look, Docyabut2, let's break it down, in regards to Khafre's pyramid, Khafre's temple, the causeway, the Sphynx enclosure (the box or "quarry" the Sphynx statue is in) and th Sphynx itself:

• Do you agree that the Khafre pyramid was built first?
  

yes

• Do you agree that the Khafre temple was built after the pyramid?
  

no

Let's just nail down the answer to those two questions for now. Don't worry about the causeway, the Sphynx enclosure, or the Sphynx yet. Do you agree to the above two points?

[aquatus1]

Okay...Let's try it this way...

Do you believe the temple was built before the pyramid, or that the pyramid was built before the temple?

[sarah snow]

*Really hopes for a time machine*