The Paranormal is it Fake?

[alibongo]

Well, I think xFelix deserves credit. Once he had unleashed the dark forces, who could say how and when it would end? That is the trouble when people challenge the paranormal, they can end up losing their wits through terror. I seen it in a film, forgot what it was called, anyway, once the demons were released there was no way to recall them.

Edited June 27, 2013 by alibongo

[alibongo]

.....

2) Know what is a bigger claim? You just claimed to conclude that the religion of millions of people from as far back as 4,000 years ago does not exist, and you did that based on a single conversation and nothing else.

.....

I am an atheist myself, but I do not claim religions do not exist. Unfortunately they do exist, and cause terrible calamity amongst individuals and amongst groups. It sounds from this sentence that you believe that the more ancient a religion is, the more "true" it is.I think the converse, the older the religion, the more likely it is to be steeped in ignorant dogma and superstition. If I had to choose a religion for myself, I think a Cargo Cult or Scientology would be more upbeat and amusing.

[Tata Rompe Pecho]

I am an atheist myself, but I do not claim religions do not exist. Unfortunately they do exist, and cause terrible calamity amongst individuals and amongst groups. It sounds from this sentence that you believe that the more ancient a religion is, the more "true" it is.I think the converse, the older the religion, the more likely it is to be steeped in ignorant dogma and superstition. If I had to choose a religion for myself, I think a Cargo Cult or Scientology would be more upbeat and amusing.

Actually, the older religions are being vindicated by scientific studies in most their beliefs more and more every day. Meanwhile I know nothing about the newer religions so I will not comment on whether or not they are being scientifically vindicated.

For example, in my religion it is believed that everything has a vibration. Here we are, 4000 years later with scientists saying everything has a vibration. We believe that there is an afterlife, here we are 4000 years later with scientists saying there is a individual conciousness that seems to survive death. We believe that a spirit can be placed into an object or animal, here we are 4000 years later with an African Grey parrot named Nkisi(Which means spirit receptacle) that seems to actually talk, not just repeat but actually talk. I can go on for a while pointing out all the things science is now vindicating, but for the sake of the thread I will leave it at 3 examples.

[kannin]

Many of us fear death. We believe in death because we have been told we will die. We associate ourselves with the body, and we know that bodies die. But a new scientific theory suggests that death is not the terminal event we think.

One well-known aspect of quantum physics is that certain observations cannot be predicted absolutely. Instead, there is a range of possible observations each with a different probability. One mainstream explanation, the “many-worlds” interpretation, states that each of these possible observations corresponds to a different universe (the ‘multiverse’). A new scientific theory – called biocentrism – refines these ideas. There are an infinite number of universes, and everything that could possibly happen occurs in some universe. Death does not exist in any real sense in these scenarios. All possible universes exist simultaneously, regardless of what happens in any of them. Although individual bodies are destined to self-destruct, the alive feeling – the ‘Who am I?’- is just a 20-watt fountain of energy operating in the brain. But this energy doesn’t go away at death. One of the surest axioms of science is that energy never dies; it can neither be created nor destroyed. But does this energy transcend from one world to the other?

[Mr Walker]

This idea that one can choose to believe something in spite of contrary evidence or when there is no evidence just falls flat on its face it is so untrue.

I think the same applies to whether or not you make a choice as to whether you are hansome or not. If you like what you see in the mirror, you will think you are hansome, but if you don't, you won't. No choice here either.

I'm sorry Frank but that way of thinking is so alien to mine, and to what I consider logical thought, that I can't really comprehend how you arrive at it.

I can choose to believe i am handsome or I can chose to believe I am ugly. I can chose to believ god exists or i can chose to believe god does not exist What I ahve NO choice to believ or disbeliev is anything I know to be true or false. Eg i cannot believe i am a female, but nor can i believe i am a male, because i KNOW what I am.

Let us say there are 30 teachers at a conference. I can say, honestly, and logically, either that i believe i am the most intelligent one there, or the least intelligent one there.

Now suppose we all sit an intelligence test, and the results become known. I can no longer offer any belief position on my comparative intelligence, because my rating (first, last, or in the middle,) is now KNOWN.

Edited June 30, 2013 by Mr Walker

[Frank Merton]

There's a giant of a cage full of birds sitting on the balcony outside my window making a tremendous racket. At the same time my randomized play list has brought up "Feed the Birds" and my daughter just brought me some watermelon. What should I do?

I suppose I could "choose" to interpret these as a message that I don't need the watermelon as much as the birds do, or I could "choose" to say that's just nonsense -- events do not contain hidden messages. Regardless, I know some birds that are going to get some watermelon, not because of some omen but because I want to.

[Mr Walker]

There's a giant of a cage full of birds sitting on the balcony outside my window making a tremendous racket. At the same time my randomized play list has brought up "Feed the Birds" and my daughter just brought me some watermelon. What should I do?

I suppose I could "choose" to interpret these as a message that I don't need the watermelon as much as the birds do, or I could "choose" to say that's just nonsense -- events do not contain hidden messages. Regardless, I know some birds that are going to get some watermelon, not because of some omen but because I want to.

MAny choices are open to you. Why feed the damn birds at all ? It only encourages them to sit outside your window and make a racket. But yes you havee a choice which is open to any huma being. You can chose to see a connection a coincidence, a correlation or none of these between the birds and the music. To my mind it is entirely serendipitous but i have no belief about the two things. Perhaps the birds have been conditioned to come to your window when you play music so they will be fed because you are there, and you are soft hearted. If i was there, and took no notice of them, they might not turn up at the window at all. I do not have the data to make an informed decision.

Even though they are caged birds this point remains valid, in that their behaviour might be a consitioned response to your behaviour.

Edited June 30, 2013 by Mr Walker

[scowl]

Actually, the older religions are being vindicated by scientific studies in most their beliefs more and more every day.

xFelix will say anything but never includes any references because what he says isn't true.

For example, in my religion it is believed that everything has a vibration. Here we are, 4000 years later with scientists saying everything has a vibration.

You have no idea what "vibration" means in a scientific context.

We believe that there is an afterlife, here we are 4000 years later with scientists saying there is a individual conciousness that seems to survive death.

Again, you can't cite any of these scientists because there is not one single legitimate scientist on Earth who will claim this.

[Tata Rompe Pecho]

xFelix will say anything but never includes any references because what he says isn't true.

You have no idea what "vibration" means in a scientific context.

Again, you can't cite any of these scientists because there is not one single legitimate scientist on Earth who will claim this.

Dr. Gary Schwartz MD

Dr. Rupert Sheldrake, PhD. biochemist, plant physiologist, Fellow of Clare College, Cambridge & author

Victor Zammit

Sir William Barrett F.R.S

Sir Oliver Lodge F.R.S

Sir William Crookes F.R.S

Professor Hyslop Professor of Logic at Columbia University

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

Sir Oliver Lodge

Arthur Findlay

Camille Flammarion

Dr Baraduc

Professor Richet

Alfred Russel Wallace

Professor Robert Hare

Professor Albert Einstein

Marconi F.W. Myers

Professor William James

Dr Carrington

Emmanuel Swedenborg

Thomas Alva Edison

Baron von Schrenck-Notzing

Professor Charles Richet

Professor Eugene Osty

Professor Gustav Geley

George Meek

Dr Glen Hamilton

Dr Kübler-Ross

Dr Melvin Morse

Professor Archie Roy

Dr J.B. Rhine and his wife Dr Louisa Rhine

Dr Dean Radin

Professor David Fontana

Have all done research into the afterlife, and have all stated that there is an individual consciousness that seems to survive death.

Not to mention I already linked to their research, but you can't see it because it goes directly against your argument which means you are completely blind to it's existence.

[GoldenWolf]

Dr. Gary Schwartz MD

Dr. Rupert Sheldrake, PhD. biochemist, plant physiologist, Fellow of Clare College, Cambridge & author

Victor Zammit

Sir William Barrett F.R.S

Sir Oliver Lodge F.R.S

Sir William Crookes F.R.S

Professor Hyslop Professor of Logic at Columbia University

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

Sir Oliver Lodge

Arthur Findlay

Camille Flammarion

Dr Baraduc

Professor Richet

Alfred Russel Wallace

Professor Robert Hare

Professor Albert Einstein

Marconi F.W. Myers

Professor William James

Dr Carrington

Emmanuel Swedenborg

Thomas Alva Edison

Baron von Schrenck-Notzing

Professor Charles Richet

Professor Eugene Osty

Professor Gustav Geley

George Meek

Dr Glen Hamilton

Dr Kübler-Ross

Dr Melvin Morse

Professor Archie Roy

Dr J.B. Rhine and his wife Dr Louisa Rhine

Dr Dean Radin

Professor David Fontana

Have all done research into the afterlife, and have all stated that there is an individual consciousness that seems to survive death.

Not to mention I already linked to their research, but you can't see it because it goes directly against your argument which means you are completely blind to it's existence.

I am curious as to where they all got their degrees from (Except for Einstein, but he later changed his views).

[Mr Walker]

I am curious as to where they all got their degrees from (Except for Einstein, but he later changed his views).

I presume FRS stands for Fellow of the Royal Society.

Britannica Concise Encyclopedia:

Royal Society (of London for Improving Natural Knowledge)

Top

Home > Library > Miscellaneous > Britannica Concise Encyclopedia

Leading scientific society in Britain and the oldest national scientific society in the world. Founded in 1660, its early members included Robert Hooke, Christopher Wren, Isaac Newton, and Edmond Halley. It has long provided an impetus to scientific thought and research in the U.K., and its achievements have become internationally famous. The society's Philosophical Transactions, the oldest scientific periodical in continuous publication, has published papers since 1665. The society awards several prizes, the most prestigious being the Copley Medal. At the beginning of the 21st century, the society had some 1,300 fellows and 130 foreign members.

Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/royal-society#ixzz2XqzlKJMT

http://www.answers.com/topic/royal-society

[ambelamba]

I am an atheist myself, but I do not claim religions do not exist. Unfortunately they do exist, and cause terrible calamity amongst individuals and amongst groups. It sounds from this sentence that you believe that the more ancient a religion is, the more "true" it is.I think the converse, the older the religion, the more likely it is to be steeped in ignorant dogma and superstition. If I had to choose a religion for myself, I think a Cargo Cult or Scientology would be more upbeat and amusing.

Hey, scientology will drain your bank account and block you from taking certain meds.

[alibongo]

Hey, scientology will drain your bank account and block you from taking certain meds.

Yeah, but I believe Ron Hubbard was a science fiction writer, so he has some cool stuff about aliens, weird body meters or something, and a mad hierarchy which can only be reached through paying huge sums of money. Obviously no religion is worth paying for, but it might be a lark to get involved at ground floor level.

[Mr Walker]

Yeah, but I believe Ron Hubbard was a science fiction writer, so he has some cool stuff about aliens, weird body meters or something, and a mad hierarchy which can only be reached through paying huge sums of money. Obviously no religion is worth paying for, but it might be a lark to get involved at ground floor level.

Indeed, it is structured much like pyramid selling.

[Sakari]

The Randi Challenge is / was not the only one out there...

http://en.wikipedia...._the_paranormal

And...

psychics might go to India and contact B. Premanand who will pay Rs. 100,000 "to any person or persons who will demonstrate any psychic, supernatural of paranormal ability of any kind under satisfactory observing conditions." Also, "Prabir Ghosh will pay Rs. 20,00,000* to anyone who claims to possess supernatural power of any kind and proves the same without resorting to any trick in the location specified by Prabir Ghosh."

The

Australian Skeptics offer $100,000 (Australian), $80,000 for the psychic and $20,000 for anyone "who nominates a person who successfully completes the Australian Skeptics Challenge." If you nominate yourself, and are successful, you get the whole hundred grand.

The

Association for Skeptical Inquiry (ASKE), a U.K. skeptic organization, offers £12,000 for proof of psychic powers.

The

Independent Investigations Group "offers a $50,000 prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event."

The

North Texas Skeptics offer $12,000 to any person who can demonstrate any psychic or paranormal power or ability under scientifically valid observing conditions.

The

Quebec Skeptics offer $10,000 to any astrologer who can demonstrate her craft according in a formal scientific experiment.

The

Tampa Bay Skeptics offer $1,000 to anyone able to demonstrate any paranormal phenomenon under mutually agreed-upon observing conditions.

A group in New Zealand calling itself

"Immortality" is offering a prize of $NZ2,000,000 to anyone "who can display an actual paranormal ability, under controlled conditions." One million goes to the successful applicant and one million to the charity of his or her choice.

Finally, conjurer

Chris Angel offered $1,000,000 of his own money to Uri Geller and Jim Callahan if they could psychically determine the contents of an envelope he held in his hand. The offer was in response to Callahan's claim that his performance of a trick on a TV show called "Phenomenon" was aided by spirit guide.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Sakari

[Sakari]

Good all the way through....Best at 11 minute mark.

Evidence to support parts of the Paranormal being fake.

[Mikko-kun]

I suppose none of those tests give it to an astrologer. I know there's astrologers who could tell your birthday and hour without so extensive effort, I'm pretty sure there must be some. So that leaves me with the question, is that kind of a thing considered a psychic power, does it qualify? I might be able to make myself richer some day if it does, the problem is I dont like doing it in supervised conditions and so on, home on my time and my terms is the best, it's the eureka-kind of thing for me at least, at times.

But if the qualification of psychic is to have a power others dont have or can't have too easily, then that shouldn't count. Because you can learn how to do it. It's no trick, it's basic thing everyone who dont have mental limitations should be able to do, as far as I see it. Just to me sounds like something they might view as a psychic thing.

oh, the Quebec Sceptics, could use 10k..

oh, only for french huh? ....

oh, they had english pages...

We have no interest in theories or explanations of how the claimed powers might work; if you provide us with such material, it will be ignored and discarded.

Can't blame them for that, but just goes to say they clearly ain't interested in studying the phenomenas, just interested in seeing whether they exist or not. Controversy and conditioning. I'd do it even if money wasn't involved, and not like I'm better than professional astrologers out there. I'm more interested in studying them than proving to someone who has their own biased conditions and terms they dictate for such tests and try to hide their dictation under the facade of "you have a say in it". I can understand their will to weed out pretenses, but it's just more a publicity trick where you use money as candy. Proof of that:

Applicant agrees that all data (photographic, recorded, written, etc.) gathered as a result of the testing may be used freely by JREF in any way that Mr. Randi may choose.

You can call me a coward, but then I can just dare you to let me decipher some of your birth data after an exchange we make. Not making promises here though, as you must understand, catering to that kind of wishes doesn't pay, just like trying Randi's stuff doesn't pay 50% of the time even if you were for real, because Randi either abuses or ignores the placebo effect to make his ends meet.

When entering into this challenge, the applicant surrenders any and all rights to legal action against Mr. Randi, against any persons peripherally involved, and against the James Randi Educational Foundation, as far as this may be done by established statutes. This applies to injury, accident, or any other damage of a physical or emotional nature, and/or financial, or professional, loss or damage of any kind. However, this rule in no way affects the awarding of the prize.

In other words, mr. Randi can be as condescending as he likes with whatever happens there, and draw any conclusion he wants without consequences of what happens there, and tell anything he wants about that.

I can very much understand that you'd want to weed out the wannabes and pretenses and all that, but after all the hostility and condescence you can't blame anyone for being repelled by the thought of just going out there to get emotionally wounded once again.

I'd rather go some place where someone would be interested in seeing whether or not you have some ability you can develop, and offer you something to develop it with.

Be advised that you should conduct proper, secure, tests of your own, to determine whether your abilities or claims are actually valid. Some persons who failed to do this, have undergone serious embarrassment and emotional stress, as a result. This advice is offered only so that you might be spared these problems.

First you give all the terms and then say "it's all your fault" when you dont cut it with the terms you give. Anyone can give terms of what qualifies and what doesn't. Basic form of bias, no matter how logical you think you are. They're not interested in the nature of things, but in how things work in what they conceive as reality. I dont blame them for seeking out truth tho, just for not having a will to have more eye for it. But it's a choise. "Truth must fit in my box or it ain't truth" I think sums it all up, both this discussion and Mr. Randi.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Mikko-kun

[Mikko-kun]

And just to be clear, the thing I think many of those astrologers who have developed their sense beyond mine (there must be many of those around), could tell peoples' birthdates and hours after getting known to them, If it ain't a psychic thing, ok. But it gets far harder to prove the other way around on Randi's terms, because astrology is too much about choises to be grounded-down to something that "must be like this, no other choise", unless you're a real pro or just quite proficient with mundane or event-based astrology. But we still can do it the other way around pretty well. I've studied it only for a year and have gotten my workmates' data pretty much right. And it'd be likely a prolonged experiment, unless you get someone who's very good at it to do it, because it can take time to get to know to people as they really are, especially when you're being observed, as if it wasn't hard enough already. And some cases are harder than others, is just how it is, because we dont see everything equally clearly.

I'd be still willing to give it a go if Randi was in Finland, at least. Not having the funds right now to make a trip just for that, let alone the time.

[blackpantherSA]

first of all they do exist because... and let me just say no bull **** and true story...i thought i had a dream i was walking to the living room and saw a man in white looking at me while i was going to the kitchen broke a glass cup i had attempted to grab from the cabinet that cut up my foot and my parents came out of their room asking what happend and i did not even care about my foot i asked them about the man i saw and it turned out it was neighbor that i had a stroke next door that liked to come over and apparently they were his only friends or something and i was never there to see him so they showed me a picture and i confirmed it was him... im not beiliever untill now my parents are happy an sad and a little uncomfortable with seeing him all the time show they had a shaman come in and perform something thats called the abandom ritual oh wau it was the abolish ritual.. i think i cant remember the name of the ritual

[Tata Rompe Pecho]

Lol

Good to see everyone is still discussing this back and forward...

[alibongo]

There may be something in it after all. My grandmother was told by a psychic that her husband would die. She was obviously very upset.Lo and behold, twenty three years later he dropped down dead with a heart attack! Spooky or what?

[Tata Rompe Pecho]

There may be something in it after all. My grandmother was told by a psychic that her husband would die. She was obviously very upset.Lo and behold, twenty three years later he dropped down dead with a heart attack! Spooky or what?

Spookier yet is your location being listed as Armacham Jail, and yet you are still posting here!!!

[alibongo]

Spookier yet is your location being listed as Armacham Jail, and yet you are still posting here!!!

Bet you don't know where Amarcham Jail is! It isn't very far from here, not where I am anyway.

Edited July 12, 2013 by alibongo

[Mr Walker]

Bet you don't know where Amarcham Jail is! It isn't very far from here, not where I am anyway.

I assume Armachan gaol is a holding cell in the headquarters of ATC. What are you in their for? Poor game play or revealing corporate secrets?

[psyche101]

"If the Prize is awarded, this would not mean that the JREF acknowledges the existence of the supernatural."

I would take a guess that might be because it is a Challenge, not peer review?

JREF is not the authority, they would inform the relevant section of the scientific community, and they would take it from there. This "springboard" seems to keep the credulous time wasters at bay. In this regard, JREF is providing a community service.

It seems you don't even understand the nature of the experiments...

It would seem you did not understand the post.

Edited July 16, 2013 by psyche101