Files shed light on MoD UFO desk closure

[skookum]

The more I hear about the little MOD UFO room and Nick Pope, the less I believe. It sounded feasible at first then more information came out and it seemed less and less likely.

Forget about ET for the moment. Are they trying to tell us that ever intrusion into UK airspace by an Object that cannot be quickly identified was passed on to a man working in a small office in the MOD?

This at a time when the use of drones etc was hugely increasing. Doesn't make sense to me.

[TSS]

The more I hear about the little MOD UFO room and Nick Pope, the less I believe. It sounded feasible at first then more information came out and it seemed less and less likely.

Forget about ET for the moment. Are they trying to tell us that ever intrusion into UK airspace by an Object that cannot be quickly identified was passed on to a man working in a small office in the MOD?

This at a time when the use of drones etc was hugely increasing. Doesn't make sense to me.

It made a lot of sense to the MOD though, as you say though "forget about ET" which is exactly what they did, since they weren't looking into space, they were looking East.

Bare in mind that this was formed some 50 yrs ago....public reports of ufo's (and a dedicated desk to investigate them) is a great way to get an idea of what you might be missing in terms of what is entering our air space uninvited, but you also have the added bonus of seeing which of your own toys is being spotted by the public, and how they are being reported and perceived.

90 percent of all sighting reported were found to have natural or earthly explanations...the one's that were not gave them some insight into what they might be missing...

[DONTEATUS]

THe only light shed ,will be the A$$ whoppin E.T ids going to give us in that Shed for getting it all wrong ! They Dont want to Meet us !

[psyche101]

As it has been confirmed in the Disclosure project and the 2013 Citizen Hearing on Disclosure, these craft, whatever their origin, are capable of disabling dozens of nuclear missiles simultaneously.

No, UFO's cannot do that, you are quoting hearsay as though fact. That is what those so called projects have stated yes, but that does not make these very loose and wild (and outright incorrect) claims "confirmed" in any way shape or form. It's a bunch of enthusiasts telling each other what they want to hear and highlighting any credentialed participant in a grab for credibility.

They have been documented to do so mid-air as well.

They have not been documented doing any such thing, and I fail to see what the Mid Air position has to add to this claim? If the alleged aliens had landed at least we might have CCTV footage. Much less impressive to be doing this by remote control. I think Julian Assange would be yawing at the so called impressive hacking abilities. Not like these old computer systems were highly complex.

The accounts are numerous and confirmed by a high number of military personnel, retired and active, high ranking and low-ranking.

And denied by the same, and the case of the alleged Echo Flight Shutdown, Eric Carlson, who sat at the very desk during the alleged incident came here to UM along with Robert Hastings and asked in general why non of these UFO people have spoken to him, who would be crucial to the claim. Not to mention some questions from UM member Leonardo seem to have instigated a rather quick exit on the behalf of Mr Hastings who it appears was unable to assist him with his in depth queries. LINK

In addition to all this, Tim Herbert, a former SAC missile crew commander and staff officer, also came here to UM and showed us what the wiring configuration of the misiles at these silos actually was, and it rendered Hastings argument invalid immediately. The faults that Hastings say brought the system down travelled upon imaginary cables. The claim falls apart technically, no matter how much his sock puppet Salas nods his head up and down.

James Carlson (Erics son) also has a free E Book outlining the actual situation much more precisely. LINK

And the MoD says they are not a threat.

Is there any reason to think otherwise? This phenomena has been with us for a long time, longer than most imagine I would say, and apart from some ball lightning deaths due to proximity, I know of no threat posed by UFO's in the last 60 years.

Edgar Mitchell who believes people who believe in ET says these alleged aliens are not a threat as well. Why woud any of this be a concern to the MoD?

And I'm sure these can be explained away as natural phenomena. You know what? Call them natural, I don't care, these are labels we like to stick on stuff.

They do have a purpose, as there seems to be two types of believer from what I see. One borrows credibility from the other. One group is sensible, and really trying to understand what is happening here, and one is credulous and just want personal validation of their own fantasies and quick cash for some. They are also distinctly different in training, making the credible people such as Professor Hawking, or Michio Kaku worth listening to and putting the redneck who was abducted for sex into perspective. There is no getting around the very fact that the idea of aliens draws kooks like moths to a flame.

Point is, there is something going on and it needs further investigations, because the bottom line is, and let's be honest and humble here for a change, we don't understand what's going on, what or who they are, why they are here, why they do the things they do, how they do it, etc.

Not sure where the "they" is coming from, particularly when you resign the description to natural phenomena above. ??

It is true we do not understand a large part of the UFO phenomena, and claims like Betty and Barney Hill will never be completely resolved as far as science is concerned, as too little information exists. But we are uncovering bits and pieces, the MoD not too long ago officially announced that the Plasma studies begun by Phillip Klass in the 50's were a valid explanation for at least part of the phenomena, and it is interesting to note that this important research has been held back for decades specifically by the UFOlogist contingent. Again the two types of believers come into the field of pay, and in this case, one drew so much credibility fro the other, that real results were held back and everyone was held at a disadvantage for "UFO"so called research. All it accomplished was highlighting some personal alien fantasies from people who really ought to be a bit more mature.

Bottom line I think is people like the team investigating the Hessdalen Phenomena, or Professor Jack Pettigrew are indeed taking on what fringe has given a bad name with a professional attitude. And the headway is going to only be slowed by the slow thinking UFOlogists who are still trying to assign nothing more than modern Gods to explain that which they do not understand.

You can't keep shouting swamp gas and weather balloons all the time, coupled with mass hallucinations and mental problems, and ignore all the abductions, mutilations, radiation, multiple radar tracks, foreign materials with weird properties,

Can you prove those conclusions wrong? That is the place to start, not complaining that you do not like them. All that does is allow ebil gummit pack mentality with no actual information.

and now this Atacama humanoid,

I am taking this as a joke. Surely you jest. Surely. This ten year old decidedly human artefact is in no way new, or alien, at all. All that is new about it is the hype spun up to drive up more Greer funding. This is merely yet anther example of the very worst that UFOlogy has to offer.

not to mention crop circles and the like.

In all the crop circle threads that have surfaced here, I am yet to see how this nonsense ties into ET. They are easy to make, and man has made them and provided overnight examples. Crop circles are not ET related, and that statement cannot be challenged. I dare anyone to do so. The only current thread on them is a shambles and has provided more proof of mans involvement than anything else.

If it was one or two of these then the alternative explanations (in this case the natural ones) could be considered a possibility, but all this stuff all together? You can't just ignore the testimonies of all these jet fighters and nuclear silo military officers.

Why not? The ones who say it is not in ay way ET are avoided like the plague, why not ignore the ignoramus statements that are technically impossible and contradict other claims of direct witnesses/participants?

The credulity of a claim seems to be in proportion with the belief factor for some. The crazier a story, the more some want it to be true. Whilst that might be human nature, nature supplied us with common sense and rationality as well. I feel obliged to use them myself.

Ben Rich wasn't exaggerating.

No he was not, we most certainly did have the means to take ET home as far back as the late 50's and early 60's. Within reason of course. Even 10x light speed wont help you see the far side of the Universe. The Orion Project incorporating Nuclear propulsion is to date still the best design for interstellar travel. This is no secret however, one just needs to make oneself more aware of our space history. It might get us to Alpha Centauri in 40-60 years, however the project is recognised to have been terminated b the nuclear test ban treaty. You know, the one that France, Korea and Vietnam violated.

[psyche101]

I'm glad you brought that up. However it saddens me to see people being so gullible as to believe that these recording technologies are set up in a way that they will tell us everything we want to know about UFOs. If you HAD done any research you would've found out that all this "too much science and good recording technology" is set up in a very specific way. To give you a clue I recommend you watch a video in which Senator Bartlett and Congressman Cook ask FAA's John Callahan and USAF's Maj. George Filer: Hope this helps a little.

How about going backwards a step then, with all the RADAR traces of the alleged UFO's, why has not one ever been traced as entering or leaving the atmosphere, let alone the solar system? Every UFO RADAR track in existence shows a decidedly terrestrial trajectory. Should a space ship not go into space at some point? The closest thing we have to this description is the WOW! signal, indicating that if something came from space, it would not be such a guessing game.

[psyche101]

I thought it interesting that...

So when an area needs more people to help investigate phenomena/reports, the better thing to do is close it down?

I would just guess at "a more appropriate department" might be the idea here.

[Tim Hebert]

OK, if one is hell bent on toeing the Hastings/Salas line, at least get some modicum of facts straight in support of this fantasy.

From Scudbuster:

In particular, Google Capt Robert Salas's testimony, IIRC he was the OIC at the launch site

:

No, Salas was not the OIC (Officer in Charge), that would have been Frederick Meiwald, and Salas was a 1st Lt at the time of the alleged encounter and was considered "second in command" as Meiwald's deputy.

From Spiritwalker:

Very interesting replies to say the least. And some replies with such vehement emotion! I did find a very interesting televised event on YouTube from a show from Larry King debating this very topic and most interestingly a video of an UFO disabling a test rocket launched from Malmstrom U.S. Air Force base. If any wishes to see the "evidence" look up "Best Larry King UFO Debate Ever Pt. 1 7/18/08". It is without a doubt the very best debate I, myself, have ever seen. It is a five part video with the most notable so called UFO geeks and scientists. No matter what side of the fence you set on I think anyone will finish watching these with a different frame of mind. I hope those of us who so quick to judge will be as quick to watch the evidence.

A UFO disabling at test launch from Malmstrom? Seriously? No such thing ever occurred, as there has never been a test launch from any operational ICBM from an actual alert facility in the history of the US ICBM force. It was proposed numerous times, but due to political pressure (local, state, and federal) never was carried out.

True, there were numerous test launches out of Vandenberg AFB, where operational ICBMs were pulled from an actual alert missile silo for Follow-on Test and Evaluation programs. Hastings tried to play one of these test shots as proof that a UFO had interfered/intercepted a Minuteman in-flight over the Pacific, but I "shot" his theory/fantasy down in a series of comments on The UFO Chronicles. I'll be happy to supply that exchange if people have interests.

Regards Tim H.

[S2F]

I'll be happy to supply that exchange if people have interests.

I admit, you have my attention. I'd like to see the exchange if you don't mind sharing it.

[Tim Hebert]

I admit, you have my attention. I'd like to see the exchange if you don't mind sharing it.

I'll post it in a new thread as not to be off-topic in this current thread. Perhaps by tomorrow?

Best Regards,

Tim H.

[Tim Hebert]

Ah - who cares if he was the NCOIC, OIC, 1st Lt, a 2nd loeuy or a visiting Lt. General? He was there, his testimony is on record, I've seen it numerous times.

And you? - you weren't there.

You seemed to care by your attempt to elevate Salas to a position that he didn't have. Which testimony are you referring to? He has had different versions of the night in question. His own crew commander couldn't, or wouldn't, verify what Salas' claims to have happen.

Oh, I'm betting that you were not there either.

And technically, neither was Salas. He was 90 feet underground...and saw nothing.

There were others on that site, at least 8 individuals. They've never come forward to verify Mr. Salas' claims. Don't you find that interesting if not giving you some degree of suspicion? Or, are you the type that will buy, hook, line, and sinker, any claims that supports your fantasy with out ascertaining some sliver of fact?

Edited July 2, 2013 by Tim Hebert

[DONTEATUS]

ITs the Book sales thats the real Deal !

[psyche101]

Ah - who cares if he was the NCOIC, OIC, 1st Lt, a 2nd loeuy or a visiting Lt. General? He was there, his testimony is on record, I've seen it numerous times.

And you? - you weren't there.

The others like Eric Carlson who were there and siad that Salas is full of crap. I woud suggest you shave a look why Walt Figel was ousted from Hasting 2010 conference when even though Walt was less then ten miles from the location, and offered to give his testimony.

I woud say they care, because they were indeed there, and they know Salas is full of crap, and is making up stuff. Tim might not have been at that actual site at the time like Eric and Walt, but you do realise that Tim is indeed a former SAC missile crew commander??

What you have done is cherry pick one lone testimony over others that contradict it. Not to mention that technical details such the the wires that the alleged fault "hopped" along did not exist, so it woud seem that Salas actually knows less about the overall situation than Tim does.

[psyche101]

I admit, you have my attention. I'd like to see the exchange if you don't mind sharing it.

I will second this, thanks for the kind offer Tim. Always a treat for the critical thinkers to have you pop in mate. I you ever make it to Australia, there is a cold beer in my fridge for you.

Really decent of you to share you expertise with us IMHO. I know it would not have been this easy to come by in the first instance.

[Tim Hebert]

Haha....funny chit mon - my "fantasy". Gawd.

And no, I do not buy all the crap that's out there. How many times do I have to state in here that 95% of the stuff that is floated around about this topic is garbage?

Send me a link so i can see these other people you are talking about......if you really have it.

Alright, let's start off fresh here and my apologies for sounding abrasive. First off there is no link concerning "these other people" because "they" have never come forward to provide any form of substance to Salas' claim. Salas had been asked about this problem, but never had a coherent answer why these individuals never came forward.

Why do I know that there were other people? At each topside alert facility (Launch Control Facility, now days, Missile Alert Facility) there would be 8 individuals on site ( 2 Flight Security Controllers, 4 Armed Response personnel, Facility Manager, and site cook). Salas' story hinges on one of the FSCs calling in a report that a UFO is hovering in front of the LCF's entry gate and that one of the security personnel was injured.

To this day, these individuals have never come forward to corroborate the story, though they certainly where there. It's the identity of "they" that is one of the burning questions. And...there is no supporting evidence that anyone was injured and taken off the site to seek medical attention.

I don't know how much of this case that you have researched, but there are numerous inconsistencies in Mr. Salas' story. These inconsistencies have evolved over time. I have highlighted these problems on my blog site (www.timhebert.blogspot.com) under a series of posts, "The Oscar Flight Mystery." I'm not suggesting that I presented a definitive answer to the incident, but I attempted to underscore those problems associated with Salas' story. I do present links in most, if not all, of my posts to support my stance.

Regards,

Tim H.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Tim Hebert

[skookum]

There again if the above was the kind of rubbish they were looking into, you can see why the MOD pulled the plug.

[Space Commander Travis]

There again if the above was the kind of rubbish they were looking into, you can see why the MOD pulled the plug.

Shame topsecretresearch isn't around any more, that'd be one for his files.

Still, at least they seem to be friendly.

[quillius]

Alright, let's start off fresh here and my apologies for sounding abrasive. First off there is no link concerning "these other people" because "they" have never come forward to provide any form of substance to Salas' claim. Salas had been asked about this problem, but never had a coherent answer why these individuals never came forward.

Why do I know that there were other people? At each topside alert facility (Launch Control Facility, now days, Missile Alert Facility) there would be 8 individuals on site ( 2 Flight Security Controllers, 4 Armed Response personnel, Facility Manager, and site cook). Salas' story hinges on one of the FSCs calling in a report that a UFO is hovering in front of the LCF's entry gate and that one of the security personnel was injured.

To this day, these individuals have never come forward to corroborate the story, though they certainly where there. It's the identity of "they" that is one of the burning questions. And...there is no supporting evidence that anyone was injured and taken off the site to seek medical attention.

Regards,

Tim H.

Hello Tim, I may have something confused here but I thought it was confirmed that one of the officers did report a UFO. I was sure this happened and Carlson said it was merely a prank. If we ignore the interpretation of whether it was a prank or not, does the fact that a UFO reported is 'corroboration' at least as far as the report goes?

(also I appreciate that it is said the UFO was not mentioned in any following reports, supporting the prank interpretation)

thanks

[Space Commander Travis]

How did this become another discussion on that missile business yet again?

[quillius]

How did this become another discussion on that missile business yet again?

its a dirty job but someones got to do it

edit to add: we could move it onto ancient rocks

Edited July 3, 2013 by quillius

[Tim Hebert]

How did this become another discussion on that missile business yet again?

My apologies as I may have spurred this discussion by replying to another post referencing "that missile business." I need to show good manners and answer Quillius' question then I let things be for another time and place.

Hello Tim, I may have something confused here but I thought it was confirmed that one of the officers did report a UFO. I was sure this happened and Carlson said it was merely a prank. If we ignore the interpretation of whether it was a prank or not, does the fact that a UFO reported is 'corroboration' at least as far as the report goes?

(also I appreciate that it is said the UFO was not mentioned in any following reports, supporting the prank interpretation)

thanks

Could you be thinking of Echo Flight? I was referring to Oscar Flight. Both Salas and Meiwald had a UFO component to two different stories at Oscar. When reading Salas' first interview with Meiwald back in the 1990s it was obvious that both gentlemen were not aware of each other's story. Both men had telephone conversations with the FSC, though apparently at different times.

I tend to lean towards a hoax/prank at Oscar Flight. Perhaps I can provide more details of my thoughts in another thread.

Best regards,

Tim

[psyche101]

Hello Tim, I may have something confused here but I thought it was confirmed that one of the officers did report a UFO. I was sure this happened and Carlson said it was merely a prank. If we ignore the interpretation of whether it was a prank or not, does the fact that a UFO reported is 'corroboration' at least as far as the report goes?

(also I appreciate that it is said the UFO was not mentioned in any following reports, supporting the prank interpretation)

thanks

Gidday Mate

I assume this is the one you are thinking of. It is asTim said, Echo.

Edited July 4, 2013 by psyche101

[psyche101]

C'mon Psyche, you know me better than that.

If you have something different, send it along or post it.

No offence intended, I'm just pointing out that Tim does indeed happen to be an expert in this area. It was his information that I feel brought the entire claim undone at the seams, with regards to how the missiles are wired. Technically, it does not work how the UFO people claimed, personally, I still believe the local power company who were working on transformers in the vicinity are very likely to have unknowingly been the cause. Or even perhaps knowingly, as reparations could have cost them quite a lot of money.

I have this, regarding the "evidence" Hastings and Salas have to back the UFO claims up. If you are familiar with Hastings claims, you would be quite aware that he holds the testimony of Walt Figel as crucial to the case right?, Well, this is what Walt Figel says. Like I said, for such and "important witness" one has to wonder why he was not invited to the 2010 conference.

Walter Figel Responds

I wrote an email to Figel and cc’d Eric and James asking Figel, point blank, why he said what he said in those recordings. He responded to me, asking for the link. James responded to his request with the following email, providing Figel with the transcripts.

James wrote:

Robert Salas just published the following transcripts of a conversation he had with you in 1996. He never mentioned anything about your testimony until well after 2002.

Did you actually do this interview, and if so, why is it so different from what you have repeatedly told me, and from what my father has repeatedly claimed?

James ends his email with a comment that makes it very clear to me that he’s not only being as truthful as he can be, but he’s only interested in the truth, and clearing his family name – he has no interest in UFOs or “debunking” the nuclear missile stories found throughout Ufology. He is only interested in the case that his own father was a primary witness to. James continues:

I would very much appreciate some clarity here. I understand that you don’t want to get involved, but you are involved. You can’t get rid of that involvement, not after you’ve basically said that my Dad is a liar. I don’t care what a bunch of wack-jobs waiting for the next flying saucer pick-up have to say about me, because they’ve been doing that for years, but I will not just sit and let them do the same thing to my father.

If you are not willing to fix this — and that means making a cohesive statement of one thing or another, and calling Salas and Hastings and telling them, one way or the other, then please tell me, because this back and forth is ridiculous. These people are telling everybody that I never spoke to you — that I have made the whole thing up from the very beginning. If I am that dissociative, somebody should tell me

Walt finally responded at length to both James and I. He listed the major points that he believes are at issue here. Figel clearly states as of Sept 24th, 2010 – that not only does he believe UFO’s were not involved at Echo Flight, but Figel also reveals some shocking insight into some of Salas’ other claims regarding issuesbeyond the Echo Flight case. Here is what Figel had to say on the matter.

James,

First – your dad has not lied about anything nor do believe that he is even capable of lying about anything at all. He was, is, and always will be an honorable man. You should remember that always – I will.

Second – Bob Salas was never associated with any shutdown of any missiles at any time in any flight and you can take that to the bank. Just think about this for a split second. He is a person wrapped up in UFOs to the Nth degree. Yet he could not remember he was not at Echo. Then he thought he was at November – wrong again. Then he thought he was at Oscar – wrong again.

Third – There is no record about anything happening at November or Oscar except in people’s minds that are flawed beyond imagination. Salas has created events out of the thin air and can’t get the facts straight even then. My best friend to this day was the flight commander of the 10th SMS at the time. He and I have discussed this silly assertion in the past couple of years – he thinks it is all madeup nonsense for sure. I put both Salas and Hastings in touch with him and he has told them both that an incident at November or Oscar never happened. In addition he was subsequently stationed at Norton AFB where the engineers tested the possible problems. No little green men were responsible.

Fourth – I have always maintained that I do not nor have I ever believed that UFOs exist in any form at any place at any time. I have never seen one or reported that I have seen one. I have always maintained that they had nothing to do with the shutdown of Echo flight in Montana.

Fifth – The event at Malmstrom has a hand written log from me that was turned in just like all the other logs that I wrote over several years. I would think that if I wrote something like that in the log, there would be copies, it would have been classified at the beginning and then released along with the classified SAC messages and base reports. Nothing in that urgent SAC message even hints of UFOs at all and I think that it would if the official logs or telephone calls had referenced that fact.

Sixth – When it happened, neither your dad nor I were “visibly shaken” by the events. It was just another day with a unexpected event in our lives. It was rather underwhelming at the time. No one rushed out to see us, no one made us sign any papers, no one interrogated us for hours on end.

There is no Air Force “cover-up” it just did not happen the way Salas and has portrayed the course of events. I am sorry that you are all caught up in a p***ing contest with these people, I really am. They are just not going to let go no matter what you say or do. He has made a 15 year career pandering about the country talking about things he has no knowledge about. I am not at all interested in taking them on – it’s not worth my effort – I have more important things to do with my life. I much rather just stay out of it.

Hopefully, we can move on. I did read about a briefing on the 27th here in DC. I am here in VA about 10 miles away. Interesting. Hopefully this helps you and confirms to you at least that your dad is a straight shooter and does not lie to anyone.

Sincerely,

Walt Figel

While I am still personally not satisfied with the lack of explanation for why he said what he said to Hastings and Salas back in 1996 and 2008 – there is plenty of room for speculation. Maybe the ground crew were joking (he did say he didn’t take them seriously) and Figel was reporting to Hastings and Salas what he thought they wanted to hear – that someone mentioned “UFOs” related to Echo flight.

LINK

Edited July 4, 2013 by psyche101

[quillius]

My apologies as I may have spurred this discussion by replying to another post referencing "that missile business." I need to show good manners and answer Quillius' question then I let things be for another time and place.

The courtesy is both noted and appreciated Tim...........

Could you be thinking of Echo Flight? I was referring to Oscar Flight. Both Salas and Meiwald had a UFO component to two different stories at Oscar. When reading Salas' first interview with Meiwald back in the 1990s it was obvious that both gentlemen were not aware of each other's story. Both men had telephone conversations with the FSC, though apparently at different times.

I tend to lean towards a hoax/prank at Oscar Flight. Perhaps I can provide more details of my thoughts in another thread.

Best regards,

Tim

especially when one confuses the two incidents.....I was indeed talking about Echo Flight as per the previosu thread a while back when we debated it quite a bit. Anyhow, my mistake will pay more attention next time

Gidday Mate

I assume this is the one you are thinking of. It is asTim said, Echo.

indeed, my mistake....not posted for a couple of weeks so must be ring rusty (or at least thats my excuse)